How do we confront systemic injustice without falling into despair or self-righteousness?

That's what we're exploring in this episode as we dive into Chapter 2 of Richard Rohr's new book, The Tears of Things, titled "Amos: Messenger to the Collective." Mike and Paul begin by talking with Richard about Amos's unique approach: critiquing the collective culture rather than scapegoating individuals, and turning anger over injustice into fuel for change. Following the conversation with Richard, co-hosts Mike and Carmen are joined by Rabbi Or Rose, founding director of the Miller Center of Hebrew College and author. Together in conversation, they explore Abraham Joshua Heschel's understanding of the prophet, the challenge of holding righteous indignation without self-righteousness, the power of teshuvah (return), and practical ways to remain spiritually grounded and committed to justice and peace work in overwhelming times.

Rabbi Or Rose is the founding Director of The Miller Center of Hebrew College, and serves as a senior consultant to Interfaith America. Among his recent publications is the award-winning, co-edited volume With the Best of Intentions: Interreligious Missteps & Mistakes (Orbis Books). His forthcoming book, My Legs Were Praying: A Biography of Abraham Joshua Heschel for teen readers will be published in May 2025 (Monkfish Book Publishing). 

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How can we find wisdom amidst outrage and connect with the divine in the face of suffering?

In this episode, we're exploring the self-titled first chapter of Richard's latest book, The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage, entitled "The Tears of Things." After our conversation with Richard, we're joined by Pete Enns, author, Old Testament scholar, and host of "The Bible for Normal People," who helps us explore the importance of uncertainty, the evolution of faith, and reading scripture as a journey. Pete, along with hosts and CAC Staff Mike Petrow, Paul Swanson, and Drew Jackson, discuss navigating the rhythm of order, disorder, and reorder in both life and scripture, the value of tears in the prophetic journey, and how the wisdom of the prophets can be applied to contemporary issues of injustice and outrage.

Peter Enns (PhD, Harvard University) is the Abram S. Clemens Professor of Biblical Studies at Eastern University, St. David’s, Pennsylvania. He has also taught courses at Harvard University, Fuller Theological Seminary, and Princeton Theological Seminary. He is the host of The Bible for Normal People podcast, a frequent contributor to journals and encyclopedias, and the author of several books, including The Sin of Certainty, The Bible Tells Me So, and Inspiration and Incarnation. He lives in northern New Jersey.

Resources:

• Grab a copy of The Tears of Things here, where you can get a free reader's guide, discover a new course, and other offerings related to the book.

• The transcript for this episode can be found here.

• Check out the work of Pete Enns and The Bible for Normal People here.

Welcome to a brand-new, year-long, season that we are devoting to Fr. Richard Rohr's new book, The Tears of Things. Each month, we'll be moving through a new chapter of the book with Fr. Richard himself, as well as CAC Faculty and Staff, and a range of guests who are living the teachings forward from the context of their lives.

In this episode, we're setting up the season by diving right into the Introduction, "Good Trouble." We're excited to introduce Carmen Acevedo Butcher as an additional co-host to this season of the podcast.

This epiosde features all four co-hosts: Carmen Acevedo Butcher, Drew Jackson, Mike Petrow, and Paul Swanson.

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How do we put the genius of St. Francis to work in our own lives?

In this final episode of our Third Season, Richard takes us through Chapter 13 of Eager to Love, "Francis: A Natural Spiritual Genius". Mike, Drew, and Paul then engage in a rich conversation with author Jon Sweeney, who shares his journey of writing about St. Francis and how it has shaped his understanding of compassion and sensitivity in daily life. The discussion emphasizes the importance of navigating the complexities of living out spiritual values in a world filled with challenges. Sweeney highlights the radical love inherent in Franciscan spirituality and the significance of daily practice in living out these principles. The conversation also touches on Francis' critique of social structures and his solidarity with the suffering of the world, culminating in the emotional depth of his teachings that intertwine love and wound.

Jon M. Sweeney is an award-winning author and independent scholar. His books on Franciscan spirituality have sold a quarter million copies. He’s also the author of forty books on spirituality, mysticism, biography, and memoir including Meister Eckhart’s Book of the Heart, coauthored with Mark S. Burrows and, Thomas Merton: An Introduction to His Life and Practices. Jon is religion editor at Monkfish Book Publishing, editor of Living City magazine, and the book reviewer at SpiritualityandPractice.com.

Hosted by CAC Staff: Paul Swanson, Drew Jackson, and Mike Petrow

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What is the note you are being called to add to the great universal orchestra?

Today Richard helps us unpack Chapter 12 of Eager to Love, "John Duns Scotus: Anything but a Dunce". Mike and Paul are then joined by Sr Mary Beth Ingham, who shares her journey of understanding Scotus. Ingham addresses the title of her book Scotus for Dunces: An Introduction to the Subtle Doctor, explaining its playful yet meaningful approach to making Scotus's complex ideas accessible. The three discuss the importance of individuality within the context of community, the Univocity of being as a bridge between human experience and divine understanding, and the significance of recognizing the dignity of each person's experience. The conversation culminates in a reflection on the mysticism of Scotus and why his teachings matter for us today.

Sr. Mary Beth Ingham, CSJ currently serves as Congregational Leader of the Sisters of St. Joseph of Orange, California. Mary Beth is Professor Emerita, LMU Philosophy Dept and formerly Professor of Philosophical Theology at the Franciscan School of Theology. She holds a doctorate in Medieval Philosophy from the University of Fribourg, Switzerland and has published widely on the thought of Franciscan Master Blessed John Duns Scotus. Her monographs include Scotus for Dunces: An Introduction to the Subtle Doctor (2003), Rejoicing in the Works of the Lord: Beauty in the Franciscan Tradition (2009), The Harmony of Goodness: Mutuality and Moral Living in John Duns Scotus (2012), and Understanding John Duns Scotus: Of Realty the Rarest-Veined Unraveller (2017). In her research, she argues that the spirituality of beauty, the via pulchritudinis, is at the heart of the Franciscan intellectual tradition. 

Hosted by CAC Staff: Paul Swanson, and Drew Jackson

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How can we meet the Divine with both our minds and our hearts?

Today Richard guides us through the Eleventh Chapter of his book, Eager to Love, entitled, "Bonaventure: To Return to Love is to Yield to the Source". We're then once again joined by the inimitable Sr. Margaret Carney, who delves into the life and teachings of Bonaventure, exploring his significance in the Franciscan tradition, his mysticism, and the three great truths that underpin his theological vision. Sr. Carney, along with hosts Paul Swanson and Drew Jackson, discuss the importance of love in academia, the journey back to God, and how Bonaventure's teachings can be applied to contemporary challenges.

Margaret Carney, OSF, STD is a member of the Sisters of St. Francis of the Neumann Communities. She holds degrees in education and theology from Duquesne University, a degree in Franciscan Studies from St. Bonaventure University and a doctorate from the Pontifical University Antonianum in Rome.   

Primary themes of her teaching focus on early Franciscan women, the history of the Third Order Regular and the challenges of Franciscan collaboration in the current era. She resides in Pittsburgh and continues to serve through various committees and boards of higher education and Franciscan service. Among her many honors she includes the Monika K. Hellwig Award of the Association of Catholic Colleges and Universities and the Pro Pontifice et Ecclesiae Award given by Pope Francis in 2016.  

Hosted by CAC Staff: Paul Swanson, and Drew Jackson

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How can we build solidarity and connection with people of different faiths and cultures?

Today on Everything Belongs, Father Richard Rohr guides us through Chapter 10 of his book, Eager to Love, "Entering the World of Another: Francis and the Sultan of Egypt." Hosts Mike Petrow and Drew Jackson then engage in a profound conversation with Brother Omid Safi about the essence of love in Islam, and the role of poetry and language in navigating spiritual and interfaith dialogues. Brother Omid and our hosts delve into the intersections of spirituality, and how learning from different traditions can enrich our own spiritual journey. The three explore the significance of the encounter between Saint Francis and the Sultan as a model for compassion and dialogue, as well as the the need for a unified approach to spirituality that transcends divisions.

Brother Omid Safi is a teacher in the Sufi tradition of Radical Love and Founder of Illuminated Courses & Tours. He is currently a professor at Duke University specializing in Islamic spirituality and contemporary thought. A leading Muslim public intellectual, Omid is committed to the intersection of spirituality and social justice. His most recent book is Radical Love: Teachings from the Islamic Mystical Tradition.

Hosted by CAC Staff: Mike Petrow, Paul Swanson, and Drew Jackson

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What or whom do you want to reflect out into the world?

Today we're exploring the 9th Chapter from Richard's book Eager to Love, entitled, "The Legacy of Clare: Living the Life at Depth." In this conversation, CAC hosts are joined by the dynamic Sister Margaret Carney, who shares her deep connection to Franciscan spirituality and journey into religious life, highlighting the joy and challenges of living out these ideals. She discusses the significance of Clare of Assisi's commitment to place and community, the metaphor of the mirror in Clare's teachings, and the unique contributions Clare made beyond the shadow of Francis. The conversation also touches on the themes of downward mobility, the role of conversion in Franciscan spirituality, and how we can live out Clare's example in today's world.

Margaret Carney, OSF, STD is a member of the Sisters of St. Francis of the Neumann Communities. She holds degrees in education and theology from Duquesne University, a degree in Franciscan Studies from St. Bonaventure University and a doctorate from the Pontifical University Antonianum in Rome.   

Primary themes of her teaching focus on early Franciscan women, the history of the Third Order Regular and the challenges of Franciscan collaboration in the current era. She resides in Pittsburgh and continues to serve through various committees and boards of higher education and Franciscan service. Among her many honors she includes the Monika K. Hellwig Award of the Association of Catholic Colleges and Universities and the Pro Pontifice et Ecclesiae Award given by Pope Francis in 2016.  

Hosted by CAC Staff: Mike Petrow, Paul Swanson, and Drew Jackson

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Have you adopted scripts around the terms feminine and masculine?

Today we unpack Chapter 8 of Richard's book, Eager to Love, entitled "Lightness of Heart and Firmness of Foot: The integration of Feminine and Masculine", and we ask for our listener's grace as we imperfectly grapple with a subject inherently challenging to define. The conversation delves into the integration of masculine and feminine energies within the context of spirituality, particularly through the lens of the Franciscan tradition. Richard and our hosts explore how cultural influences shape our definitions, how terms like masculine and feminine can easily be confused for gender, and the revolutionary approach of Francis of Assisi in breaking free from traditional norms. We're then joined by two incredible voices in the world of liberation psychology and contemplative spirituality, Jennifer Abe and Douglas Christie, who share their personal journeys and insights, emphasizing the interconnectedness of life and the need for openness to mystery and transformation.

Jennifer Shimako Abe earned her PhD in clinical psychology from UCLA and has been on the faculty of the Department of Psychological Science at Loyola Marymount University since 1994. Her experience in Central and South America drew her to the work of Jesuit priest and social psychologist, Fr. Ignacio Martin-Baró, SJ and the field he founded, liberation psychology. The principles of liberation psychology have guided her research in different areas, including how the practice of cultural humility relates to institutional and social transformation, and how culturally rooted, community-defined evidence practices are critical for addressing mental health disparities across diverse communities. In 2024, she helped lead a commission on Student Spiritual Growth and Mental Health: Toward a Hope-Filled Future for Jesuit institutions in North America. Jennifer is currently the interim director for the Marymount Institute for Faith, Culture, and the Arts at LMU, leading efforts to strengthen the legacy of the women religious and the Marymount educational tradition at her institution. Across different leadership roles, Jennifer has been committed to working at the intersections of culture, spirituality, and justice in the context of Ignatian values and the Jesuit educational mission. 

Douglas E. Christie is Professor Emeritus in the Theological Studies Department at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. He is the author of The Word in The Desert: Scripture and the Quest for Holiness in Early Christian Monasticism (Oxford, 1993), The Blue Sapphire of the Mind: Note for a Contemplative Ecology (Oxford, 2012), and The Insurmountable Darkness of Love: Mysticism, Loss and the Common Life (Oxford, 2022). He has been awarded fellowships from the Luce Foundation, the Lilly Foundation and the National Endowment for the Humanities. From 2013-2015 he served as Co-director of the Casa de la Mateada study abroad program in Córdoba, Argentina, a program rooted in the Jesuit vision of education for solidarity. He lives with his family in Los Angeles and is currently working on a book about the desert as spiritual landscape.  

Hosted by CAC Staff: Mike Petrow, and Paul Swanson

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How can we stay open to, and perhaps even become curious about, our rough edges?

Today we delve further into the themes of Richard Rohr's book, 'Eager to Love,' focusing on the integration of the negative and the spirituality of imperfection. We're joined by very special guests Adam Bucko and Kaira Jewel Lingo, who share personal stories of their encounters with St. Francis and discuss the value of suffering, the Bodhisattva path, and the importance of accepting one's imperfections as a means to spiritual growth. Both share stories about the importance of feedback within community settings, as well as the integration of external practices with internal spiritual journeys. The conversation concludes with practical advice on how to approach life's challenges with joy and acceptance, noting that we're all on the road together, and everything belongs.

Kaira Jewel Lingo is a Dharma teacher with a lifelong interest in spirituality and social justice. Her work continues the Engaged Buddhism developed by Thich Nhat Hanh, and she draws inspiration from her parents’ lives of service and her dad’s work with Martin Luther King, Jr. After living as an ordained nun for 15 years in Thich Nhat Hanh’s monastic community, Kaira Jewel now teaches internationally in the Zen lineage and the Vipassana tradition, as well as in secular mindfulness, at the intersection of racial, climate and social justice with a focus on Black, Indigenous, and People of Color, and activists, as well as artists, educators, families, and youth. Based in New York, she offers spiritual mentoring to groups and is author of We Were Made for These Times: Ten Lessons in Moving through Change, Loss and Disruption and co-author of Healing Our Way Home: Black Buddhist Teachings on Ancestors, Joy and Liberation.

Adam Bucko is an Episcopal priest, teacher of contemplative spirituality, spiritual director, and activist. Born and raised in Poland under a totalitarian regime, his early exposure to spiritual activism deeply shaped his life's orientation. A committed voice in the renewal of Christian contemplation and new monasticism, he authored Let Your Heartbreak Be Your Guide: Lessons in Engaged Contemplation and co-authored Occupy Spirituality: A Radical Vision for a New Generation and The New Monasticism: An Interspiritual Manifesto for Contemplative Living. Currently, he directs The Center for Spiritual Imagination in New York, dedicated to democratizing monastic spirituality and teaching contemplative prayer in response to the cries of the poor and the earth. He also serves as a priest at the Cathedral of the Incarnation in Garden City, New York. 

Together, Kaira and Adam lead The Beloved Community for Engaged Spirituality, inspired by the social vision of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Thich Nhat Hanh, and the Buddhist-Christian teachings of Engaged Contemplation.  

Hosted by CAC Staff: Mike Petrow, and Paul Swanson

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