How do we learn from imperfect spiritual teachers and embrace our own incompleteness?

In this episode, we're exploring Chapter 6 of Richard Rohr's final book, The Tears of Things, titled "Unfinished Prophets: Elijah, Jonah, and John the Baptizer." In an extended conversation at Richard's hermitage, hosts Mike Petrow and Paul Swanson dive deep into three biblical figures who never quite completed their prophetic journey from anger to sadness to love.

Later, Carmen Acevedo Butcher joins to discuss what it means to love our own imperfection and learn from flawed teachers without idealizing them. Mike and Carmen explore how perfectionism serves oppressive systems, why self-compassion is essential for spiritual growth, and address the significant absence of women's voices in prophetic literature.

How do we live with hope when the path forward demands surrender?

In this episode, we explore Chapter 5 of Richard Rohr’s book, The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage, titled “Jeremiah: The Patterns That Carry Us Across.” Through conversation with Richard, we reflect on the prophetic vocation as a lifelong invitation to move from anger and lament into love—and how Jeremiah models that transformation.

After our dialogue with Richard, we’re joined by the beloved Reverend Dr. Walter Earl Fluker, Howard Thurman scholar and prophetic voice of ethical leadership. Together, we delve into what it means to be “dismembered to be remembered,” as Dr. Fluker shares his lifelong journey to find home, the role of the trickster God in transformation, and why there can be no liberation without struggle.

This episode walks the listener through the wisdom pattern of order, disorder, and reorder as it shows up in Jeremiah’s life—and our own. From ancient covenant to inner apocalypse, from personal grief to collective trauma, this episode is a deep meditation on how tears and laughter both reveal the path to freedom.

This episode invites you to consider: What if the tears you cry in sorrow are the same tears that prepare you for joy? What if the very act of being broken is the beginning of becoming whole?

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What wisdom emerges when contemplative action meets radical compassion?

In this special bonus episode, we step outside the chapter-by-chapter rhythm of Richard Rohr’s final book, The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage, for a rare and intimate conversation between Fr. Richard Rohr and his longtime friend Fr. Greg Boyle. Together, they explore the soul of the book and the spirit of this moment in history.

Fr. Greg, founder of Homeboy Industries and author of Cherished Belonging: The Healing Power of Love in Divided Times, joins Richard and CAC staff member Paul Swanson for a profound dialogue on everything from the death of Pope Francis and the surprising emergence of Pope Leo, to the themes of humiliation, humility, and radical belonging.

Together, they reflect on the journey from order to disorder to reorder, offering insight into how love acts in the world, especially among the most marginalized. Fr. Richard and Fr. Greg Boyle embody the very message they share: that transformation is always possible, and that love, when lived, is the greatest force for healing in our divided world.

The transcript for this episode can be found here

How do we navigate spiritual transformation when everything seems to be falling apart?

In this episode, we're exploring Chapter 4 of Richard Rohr’s final book, The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage, titled "Welcoming Holy Disorder: How the Prophets Carry Us Through." After our conversation with Richard, we're joined by Jungian psychologist and author Connie Zweig, who deepens our exploration into the role of the shadow, the hidden parts of ourselves and our communities that disorder brings to light.

Connie, along with hosts and CAC staff Mike Petrow, Paul Swanson, and Carmen Acevedo Butcher, unpack the cyclical pattern of order, disorder, and reorder that Richard calls the Wisdom Pattern. Together, they explore how disorder is not only inevitable but sacred, a season of necessary unraveling that allows space for grace, healing, and transformation.

This episode shows how the prophets help us see what we cannot, why true spiritual growth demands discomfort, and how embracing the dark night of the soul can lead to profound renewal—both personally and collectively.

Connie Zweig, Ph.D. is a retired Jungian therapist and author of Meeting the Shadow and Romancing the Shadow. Her award-winning book, The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul, extends Shadow-work into midlife and beyond and explores aging as a spiritual practice. Her book, Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path: The Dance of Darkness and Light in Our Search for Awakening, extends shadow-work into religion and spirituality. Her new podcast, Dr. Neil’s Spiritual Awakening to Non-Duality, posts on all podcast platforms. See her new SUBSTACK for livestreams and new writing: https://www.shadowworkawareness.com/about.

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How does God enact change when the mainstream seems lost? 

In this episode, we explore Chapter 3 of Richard Rohr's The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage, "A Critical Mass: The Secret of the Remnant." After our conversation with Richard about God's work from the edges, we're joined by Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis, pastor, author, and host of our sister podcast Love Period. Rev. Jaqui helps us explore what it means to embody the remnant today through fierce love, fierce freedom, and the call to un-empire Christianity. Additionally, this conversation helps us to recognize God's work in unexpected places, the prophetic call to anti-scapegoating, finding the "7,000" others, and how the small-but-mighty actions of the remnant can become a catalyst for transformation.

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How do we confront systemic injustice without falling into despair or self-righteousness?

That's what we're exploring in this episode as we dive into Chapter 2 of Richard Rohr's new book, The Tears of Things, titled "Amos: Messenger to the Collective." Mike and Paul begin by talking with Richard about Amos's unique approach: critiquing the collective culture rather than scapegoating individuals, and turning anger over injustice into fuel for change. Following the conversation with Richard, co-hosts Mike and Carmen are joined by Rabbi Or Rose, founding director of the Miller Center of Hebrew College and author. Together in conversation, they explore Abraham Joshua Heschel's understanding of the prophet, the challenge of holding righteous indignation without self-righteousness, the power of teshuvah (return), and practical ways to remain spiritually grounded and committed to justice and peace work in overwhelming times.

Rabbi Or Rose is the founding Director of The Miller Center of Hebrew College, and serves as a senior consultant to Interfaith America. Among his recent publications is the award-winning, co-edited volume With the Best of Intentions: Interreligious Missteps & Mistakes (Orbis Books). His forthcoming book, My Legs Were Praying: A Biography of Abraham Joshua Heschel for teen readers will be published in May 2025 (Monkfish Book Publishing). 

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How can we find wisdom amidst outrage and connect with the divine in the face of suffering?

In this episode, we're exploring the self-titled first chapter of Richard's latest book, The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage, entitled "The Tears of Things." After our conversation with Richard, we're joined by Pete Enns, author, Old Testament scholar, and host of "The Bible for Normal People," who helps us explore the importance of uncertainty, the evolution of faith, and reading scripture as a journey. Pete, along with hosts and CAC Staff Mike Petrow, Paul Swanson, and Drew Jackson, discuss navigating the rhythm of order, disorder, and reorder in both life and scripture, the value of tears in the prophetic journey, and how the wisdom of the prophets can be applied to contemporary issues of injustice and outrage.

Peter Enns (PhD, Harvard University) is the Abram S. Clemens Professor of Biblical Studies at Eastern University, St. David’s, Pennsylvania. He has also taught courses at Harvard University, Fuller Theological Seminary, and Princeton Theological Seminary. He is the host of The Bible for Normal People podcast, a frequent contributor to journals and encyclopedias, and the author of several books, including The Sin of Certainty, The Bible Tells Me So, and Inspiration and Incarnation. He lives in northern New Jersey.

Resources:

• Grab a copy of The Tears of Things here, where you can get a free reader's guide, discover a new course, and other offerings related to the book.

• The transcript for this episode can be found here.

• Check out the work of Pete Enns and The Bible for Normal People here.

Welcome to a brand-new, year-long, season that we are devoting to Fr. Richard Rohr's new book, The Tears of Things. Each month, we'll be moving through a new chapter of the book with Fr. Richard himself, as well as CAC Faculty and Staff, and a range of guests who are living the teachings forward from the context of their lives.

In this episode, we're setting up the season by diving right into the Introduction, "Good Trouble." We're excited to introduce Carmen Acevedo Butcher as an additional co-host to this season of the podcast.

This epiosde features all four co-hosts: Carmen Acevedo Butcher, Drew Jackson, Mike Petrow, and Paul Swanson.

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How do we put the genius of St. Francis to work in our own lives?

In this final episode of our Third Season, Richard takes us through Chapter 13 of Eager to Love, "Francis: A Natural Spiritual Genius". Mike, Drew, and Paul then engage in a rich conversation with author Jon Sweeney, who shares his journey of writing about St. Francis and how it has shaped his understanding of compassion and sensitivity in daily life. The discussion emphasizes the importance of navigating the complexities of living out spiritual values in a world filled with challenges. Sweeney highlights the radical love inherent in Franciscan spirituality and the significance of daily practice in living out these principles. The conversation also touches on Francis' critique of social structures and his solidarity with the suffering of the world, culminating in the emotional depth of his teachings that intertwine love and wound.

Jon M. Sweeney is an award-winning author and independent scholar. His books on Franciscan spirituality have sold a quarter million copies. He’s also the author of forty books on spirituality, mysticism, biography, and memoir including Meister Eckhart’s Book of the Heart, coauthored with Mark S. Burrows and, Thomas Merton: An Introduction to His Life and Practices. Jon is religion editor at Monkfish Book Publishing, editor of Living City magazine, and the book reviewer at SpiritualityandPractice.com.

Hosted by CAC Staff: Paul Swanson, Drew Jackson, and Mike Petrow

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What is the note you are being called to add to the great universal orchestra?

Today Richard helps us unpack Chapter 12 of Eager to Love, "John Duns Scotus: Anything but a Dunce". Mike and Paul are then joined by Sr Mary Beth Ingham, who shares her journey of understanding Scotus. Ingham addresses the title of her book Scotus for Dunces: An Introduction to the Subtle Doctor, explaining its playful yet meaningful approach to making Scotus's complex ideas accessible. The three discuss the importance of individuality within the context of community, the Univocity of being as a bridge between human experience and divine understanding, and the significance of recognizing the dignity of each person's experience. The conversation culminates in a reflection on the mysticism of Scotus and why his teachings matter for us today.

Sr. Mary Beth Ingham, CSJ currently serves as Congregational Leader of the Sisters of St. Joseph of Orange, California. Mary Beth is Professor Emerita, LMU Philosophy Dept and formerly Professor of Philosophical Theology at the Franciscan School of Theology. She holds a doctorate in Medieval Philosophy from the University of Fribourg, Switzerland and has published widely on the thought of Franciscan Master Blessed John Duns Scotus. Her monographs include Scotus for Dunces: An Introduction to the Subtle Doctor (2003), Rejoicing in the Works of the Lord: Beauty in the Franciscan Tradition (2009), The Harmony of Goodness: Mutuality and Moral Living in John Duns Scotus (2012), and Understanding John Duns Scotus: Of Realty the Rarest-Veined Unraveller (2017). In her research, she argues that the spirituality of beauty, the via pulchritudinis, is at the heart of the Franciscan intellectual tradition. 

Hosted by CAC Staff: Paul Swanson, and Drew Jackson

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