“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

How do you lead product when your CEO is the product visionary? Pendo's Chief Product Officer Trisha Price reveals the delicate dance of setting boundaries with founder-CEOs, the evolution of HR from gatekeeper to strategic partner, and why she uses AI to write letters to her 102-year-old grandmother. A candid conversation about power, trust, and the changing face of tech leadership.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CIARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Trisha: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trisha-price-3063081/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:20) Navigating a Founder-CEO, Product Guru Dynamic

(03:00) Establishing Boundaries and Trust

(06:40) The Importance of a Lengthy Recruiting Process

(09:40) Assessing Product Leaders

(14:40) Managing Stakeholder Input and AI Pressure

(17:50) Managing the Tension Between Sales and Product

(20:10) Navigating the AI Hype Cycle

(24:20) Tricia's Personal Use of AI

(26:40) Emerging Female Executives in Tech

(30:40) The Future of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DE&I)

(36:00) The Evolution of HR and the "Department of No"

(40:50) Working with a Great HR Leader

(43:40) Wrap

On Election Day 2024, Nolan and Kelli examine how to navigate an increasingly polarized workplace during a contentious election. They discuss the decline of 'presidential' discourse, the impact of social media on political rhetoric, and practical strategies for business leaders managing divided teams.

Their candid conversation offers insights on maintaining professionalism and unity when half the country faces inevitable disappointment.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) The Election and Preparing for a Divisive Outcome

(04:00) Supporting the Winner

(05:10) Homogeneous Support and the Undoing of Progress

(08:12) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:35) Social Media and Mental Health

(10:20) The Addiction of Election Results

(11:25) The Importance of Routine and Mental Health

(12:20) TikTok and Chaos

(12:21) Confusing Voting Laws

(12:53) Historical Context and Election Integrity

(14:00) Navigating a Divided Workplace

(14:25) Setting Expectations Before the Election

(18:04) Wrap

Former Dashlane HR leader Ciara Lakhani shares her unfiltered journey from New York to Paris tech, debunking myths about French business culture while revealing the art of cross-cultural leadership. From smoke breaks with works councils to earning trust through authenticity, Ciara offers practical wisdom on navigating international business dynamics and building bridges between American and French work cultures.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CIARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Ciara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ciaralakhani/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Elevate People:

https://elevatepeople.io/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:50) Ciara's move to Paris in 2020

(04:54) Challenges of being an HR exec in another country

(05:53) Stereotype against French HR people

(07:08) Communication style in France

(08:30) Assimilating with French HR professionals

(10:30) Generalizations about France

(11:45) Learning the nuances of French labor laws

(13:35) Navigating HR in different countries

(15:18) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:18) Punitive government in France

(18:39) Being a translator in HR

(19:50) Working with lawyers

(20:45) Org politics in France

(23:04) Unpacking the co-founder story

(23:50) Org navigation and politics in Paris

(27:30) Earning trust in a new culture

(29:50) French tactics and meeting people where they are

(30:00) Ciara's transition to being independent

(31:38) Assimilating into French culture

(33:00) Wrap

In this segment of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan discuss "empty suit executives" – a term coined by product leader Tyler Hogge, highlighting executives who manage from above but scoff at doing the work themselves.

Is the era of the status-seeking executive dead? Explore how AI, increased competition, and evolving workplace culture are killing the 'empty suit' leader. From Silicon Valley's trenches to corporate boardrooms, discover why authenticity is replacing authority, and why rolling up your sleeves might be the new key to power in modern business.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

The Empty Suit Executive by Tyler Hogge

https://tylerhogge.com/2024/10/16/the-empty-suit-executive/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:29) The Empty Suit Executive

(03:43) Shift in Management Styles and the Rise of Doers

(05:34) Clash Between Founders and "Empty Suit" Executives

(06:17) The Changing Dynamics of Large Tech Companies

(07:17) Venture-Backed Companies as a Bellwether

(09:00) Sponsor: MetaView

(10:06) Recognizing Our Own "Empty Suit" Tendencies

(11:30) Building a Brand and Leading by Example

(12:40) New Era of Leadership

(13:30) Adaptability in a Competitive Landscape

(14:04) The Rise of AI

(14:36) Wrap

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli talks with Silicon Valley prodigy turned seasoned operator and former Google director Jared Fliesler.

From revolutionizing feedback systems to challenging the "founder mode" hype, Jared shares raw insights from his journey as Silicon Valley's youngest executive.

But that's just the beginning – he also unveils the psychological trap keeping high achievers perpetually unfulfilled (hint: it's not what you think), and shares the counterintuitive secret to genuine satisfaction.

Whether you're a startup founder, HR leader, or ambitious professional, this episode will fundamentally change how you think about performance, leadership, and success. Warning: your perspective on workplace traditions will never be the same.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH JARED, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jared: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredsf/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

First Call Coaching:

https://www.firstcall.co/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:59) Radical Performance Review Process 

(06:18) Getting the CEO on Board

(08:48) People Operations as Core Business

(10:20) The Move Away from Performance Reviews

(10:50) Feedback Systems for Introverts

(12:07) The Semantics of Performance Reviews

(12:48) Experimenting with Performance Reviews

(13:52) Founder Mode

(19:18) Sponsor: Metaview

(20:10) Copy-pasting Culture Decks

(20:54) Revolt Against Traditional Management

(21:46) Fandiger Mounder

(22:16) Treating People Like Wrists

(24:14) Being the Youngest Person in the Room

(27:37) The Importance of EQ

(28:42) Layoff Experience

(30:35) The Ego Trap

(32:38) Founder Coaching

(33:03) Jared's Coaching Practice

(37:21) Hiring and Firing in Hyper Growth

(37:54) Hire With Speed, Fire with Respect

(42:00) The Cost of PIPs

(43:04) The Importance of Respect

(43:52) The Hedonic Treadmill

(48:06) Gratitude as the Antidote

(48:22) Wrap

In this candid episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan dive deep into workplace burnout and share vulnerable insights on maintaining resilience in high-pressure roles.

From conquering impostor syndrome to escaping the corporate echo chamber, they offer practical strategies—like daily routines, nature walks, and building authentic relationships—while reminding leaders that it's okay not to have all the answers.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:20) Practical Approaches to Reducing Burnout01:48) Key Insights on Managing Professional Burnout(05:01) A Perspective on Failure(07:14)  Confronting Negative Self-Talk in High-Pressure Roles(08:36) Sponsor: Metaview(09:48) Importance of Saying "I Don't Know"(10:17) Finding Balance: Avoiding Professional Extremes(12:53) Breaking Free from the Corporate Echo Chamber(14:08) The Signifiance of Strong Relationships(15:13) Sharing and Collaboration(16:34) The Tangible Nature of Energy(17:07) Understanding Energy's Impact in the Workplace(18:17) Gaining Fresh Perspectives Through History & Experience(19:00) Practicing Gratitude in Professional Life(20:09) Wrap

Peter Walker, Head of Insights at Carta, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich for a round 2 discussion to talk about the hidden currents reshaping the startup world.

From the brutal reality of today's hiring landscape to the unexpected reasons top companies avoid IPOs, Walker challenges conventional wisdom, exploring how the "Big Stay" phenomenon and emerging equity models are redefining employee-company relationships.

With startling data on fund performance and company shutdowns, this conversation poses a provocative question: Are we witnessing the end of the startup golden age, or the birth of a new, leaner ecosystem?

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH PETER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Peter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjameswalker/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Carta:

https://carta.com/data/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:29) Hiring Market Remains Brutal(05:06) Tenure Correlation in Layoffs(10:08) The "Big Stay"(10:15) Sponsor: Metaview(11:27) Venture Ecosystem Driven by Investor Returns(15:34) M&A Activity is Rising(17:22) Emerging Fund Managers Under Pressure(19:37) Employee Compensation Trends(21:16) Company Valuations(25:13) Dissonance Between IPO Market and Public Market Performance(29:14) Series A and Beyond Round Activity(32:05) Resetting Expectations in Venture(37:38) Emerging Models for Employee Equity(40:23) Equity Returning to the Pool(42:16) The 90-Day Exercise Window(43:48) Wrap

In a world where AI blurs the line between genuine skill and digital deception, HR professionals face an ethical minefield. As candidates leverage AI to cheat interviews and fake applicants infiltrate tech companies, the very fabric of recruitment is being tested.

Kelli and Nolan explore the unsettling convergence of technology and human ambition, challenging us to redefine trust, authenticity, and competence in the modern workplace.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Candidates Cheating on Interviews with AI

(02:40) Interviewing is High Stakes

(04:07) AI is Getting Better

(05:21) AI Native Candidates

(06:49) The Importance of Human Qualities

(7:44) Sponsor: Metaview

(08:56) Quality Over Quantity

(10:18) Referrals and Bias

(11:04) Soft Skills Are Hard to Replace

(11:17) Fake Candidates

(12:43) The Need for Verification

(13:36) Poor Recruiting Practices

(14:02) Proof of Personhood

(14:32) A Chasm of Technology

(15:15) Expect the Unexpected

(16:02) Awareness is the First Step

(16:19) Wrap

Seasoned executive recruiter and venture capitalist Andy Price joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich for an inside-the-room look at the intricate dance of hiring, retaining, and evolving top-tier talent. Andy has assembled leadership teams for companies like Snowflake, DocuSign, Confluent, Amplitude, and ServiceNow.

From the critical role of empathy in leadership transitions to the long-term value of investing in talent development, Price's insights challenge listeners preconcieved notions about hiring and maintaining world-class execs. This episode is a compelling exploration of how the right people, in the right roles, with the right support, can transform good companies into great ones.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH ANDY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Andy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyprice1/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Artisanal Ventures:

https://artisanalv.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39)Why is the hit rate for execs so low?

(03:47) How to mitigate a bad executive outcome

(04:18) The Artisanal process to mitigate a bad outcome

(07:44) Back channels in executive recruiting

(11:05) When should a CEO back channel?

(12:40) How many back channels are too many?

(14:00) Dealing with personality fit issues after hiring an exec

(16:34) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:46) The importance of onboarding and post-hire support

(18:47) How to vet search firms

(22:37) Name-dropping in executive recruiting

(25:13) Founders trying to run searches on their own

(29:05) The importance of staying close with search firms

(30:13) Hiring for experience vs. trajectory

(34:16) The importance of orchestration in executive transitions

(35:40) The role of ego in executive transitions

(36:13) Involvement of layered executives in the interview process

(38:53) Setting expectations for layered executives

(39:22) The importance of studying successful executive transitions

(40:40) How to help up-and-comers scale

(43:03) The importance of advisors and coaches

(45:36) Executive career management

(48:43) Executive tenure and the importance of grit

(51:17) Importance of doing meaningful work before seeking new roles

(51:55) Importance of authenticity in the executive world

(52:38) Wrap

As tech giants like Microsoft dismantle DEI teams, this segment probes the industry's true commitment to diversity. Are we witnessing the death of corporate DEI or its evolution?

Kelli and Nolan dissect the disconnect between lofty promises and marginal progress, questioning whether current approaches are effective, and challenge listeners to envision a "Chapter Two" for DEI—one that prioritizes authentic inclusion over mere metrics.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:20) Microsoft Fires DEI Team: A Growing Trend in Tech

(01:01) Conflicting Messages: Microsoft's DEI Stance Analyzed

(03:16) Evaluating DEI Tactics: A Decade in Review

(04:26) Early Intervention: Google's Approach to Long-Term DEI

(05:42) The Missing Piece: Lack of Alternative DEI Strategies

(07:28) Questioning Tech's DEI Commitment

(08:10) Recognizing DEI's Cultural Impact

(09:40) Chapter Two of DEI: Hoping for Creative New Approaches

(10:32) Sponsor: Metaview

(11:43) Progress in Workplace Inclusivity

(13:35) Rethinking DEI Implementation

(14:10) Leading the Way in DEI Innovation

(15:31) The Need for Qualitative DEI Measures

(16:15) Wrap