“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli have an honest and transparent discussion with CEO and founder of Remote Job van der Voort (also the former VP of Product at GitLab) on the nuances of running an international remote company. 

Job strongly emphasises how trying to replicate the office environment in a remote setting doesn’t work and how giving small teams extreme autonomy with focus on outcome-based-management far outweighs surveillance and micro management. 

Kelli, Nolan and Job chat about early career growth and development in remote settings vs learning by osmosis in the office and how the company committed to developing new methodologies to mentor and train up juniors.

Job also gives insights into the complexities of global hiring, geography-based compensation, and geographic mobility for remote workers and discusses the impact it has on contracts and mutual obligations.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

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SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH JOB, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Job: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jobvo/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:53) Replicating Office Culture in Remote Settings

(06:45) Embracing Asynchronous Work and Team Autonomy

(09:48) Hiring and Training in a Remote-First World

(13:51) Innovative Remote Work Practices and Tools

(17:50) Addressing the Challenges of Remote Work 

(22:10) Remote's Approach to Documentation and Communication

(26:00) International Employment and Expansion

(26:54) Global Employment with Remote

(28:10) Global Compensation Strategies

(33:52) Equity and Performance in Global Teams

(39:40) Mobility and Compensation In Employee Relocation

(46:55) The Global Hiring Market and Future Trends

(51.24) Wrap

In today's segment, Kelli welcomes back Janelle Lopez, discussing her recent career decision to take a second-in-command role at Coursera over the top Chief People Officer position elsewhere. She gives us an honest look into her decision-making, her networking efforts (75 meetings!), and how to assess a company for fit.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

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SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

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KEEP UP WITH JANELLE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Janelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janelle-lopez-29997a4/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:27) Career Decision: Chief People Officer vs. Number Two Role

(01:27) Networking

(04:29) Evaluating Opportunities

(08:04) The Real Power of Networking

(12:01) Biggest Lessons From the Job Search

(13:23) Janelle's Future Aspirations

(14:20) Wrap

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli chat humanity in leadership with Michelle Weaver, CFO at Twitch (now part of Amazon). Michelle Weaver has 25 years experience including Hired (with Kelli), StitchFix, Axiom, Gap, Inc. and EA.

Michelle emphasises the importance of a human-first leadership approach and that growth and learning can come from the projects you work on, not just promotions. 

The team all agree that building a strong relationship with the CFO builds a strong business foundation and knowing the business you’re in makes you a stronger leader. They also advocate for taking the wins from experiences with bad managers by being the outcome you want to see.

Michelle also offers advice on selecting the company you want to work for and understanding the 'why' behind business numbers. She also goes deep on staying grounded through the M&A process and gives her own spin on personal growth and burnout in high-stress environments. 

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Get new episodes straight to your inbox: HRHeretics.substack.com.

SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH MICHELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Michelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-weaver/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:45) The Human Side of Being a CFO

(04:10) Rethinking Team Management and Development

(06:20) Promotions and Organisational Changes

(08:03) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM

(08:59) The Power of CFO and CPO Collaboration

(12.18) Structural Alignments Within The Company

(15.46) The CPO interviewing the CFO 

(17:16) Choosing the Right Company

(21:10) The Expansion of Gaming

(24:06) M&A Trends and Staying Grounded

(27:37) The Role of a CFO in Navigating M&A Challenges

(30:31) Deep Dive into the M&A Process

(32:45) Red Flags and Deal Breakers in M&A

(37:15) Addressing Burnout and Understanding What Your Passion Is

(42:59) How to Discover Your Passion

(48:00) Wrap

In today’s segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the recent FTC ruling to ban non-compete agreements nationwide in the US, the broader implications of the ruling for employers and employees, and the future of AI and tech post-ban.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) FTC Bans Non-Competes Nationwide

(00:53) Personal Takes on the Non-Compete Ban

(01:13) The Surprising Impact of Non-Competes Across Industries

(02:49) Freedom and Innovation

(05:09) Balancing Trade Secrets and Employee Freedom

(07:33) The Future of Tech and AI Post-Ban

(10:41) Embracing Side Hustles and Innovation

(11:56) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan are joined by Kristy McCann Flynn, a seasoned HR professional with 25 years of experience, who shares her journey from working in traditional HR roles to founding SkillCycle, a company aimed at revolutionizing talent development and performance management.

The lively debate covers the evolving role of HR,  why HR software purchasing power might be changing, why  HR practitioners are doing it wrong if the 50% of their time is spent hearing staff concerns, and as ever, the fundamental importance of aligning HR initiatives with business outcomes.

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

https://www.skillcycle.com/

KEEP UP WITH KRISTY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Kristy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmflynn/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:41) The Genesis of SkillCycle: A Response to Industry Frustrations

(01:17) Navigating Corporate America's Challenges and Changes

(03:29) Revolutionizing Talent Development

(04:20) Transforming HR and Talent Management

(04:54) Addressing the Skills Gap: A New Approach to HR Tech

(05:33) The Business Case for Investing in Talent Development

(09:04) SkillCycle's Strategy: Performance, Engagement, and Learning

(09:26) Skill Development vs. Hiring

(13:20) Sponsor: Attio

(16:31) Enabling Your Entire Workforce

(17:39) Investing in Employees Without Bias

(20:04) Burnout in HR

(24:18) The Future of HR and Shifting Focus to Business Leaders

(27:37) Strategies for Professional Development and Growth

(29:04) Navigating Budgets and Building Relationships with CFOs

(31:02) The Importance of Business Acumen in HR

(32:12) Redefining HR's Role Beyond Being a Complaint Department

(37:29) On Engagement and Pulse Surveys

(43:26) Transitioning from HR to CEO: Insights and Reflections

(47:31) Optimism vs. Pessimism in Leadership

(50:00) Wrap

In today's segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss Google firing employees who barricaded themselves in the CEO of Google Cloud Thomas Kurian's office for nine hours, to protest Google providing cloud computing services to the Israeli Ministry of Defense. Google CEO swiftly released a 'No Politics in the Workplace' message. The discussion explores the broader implications of protesting in the workplace, raises questions about protests and explores alternative ways to voice dissent without disruption.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/attioturpentine

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) The Google Protest Controversy: An HR Perspective

(01:23) Analyzing the Protest: Tactics and Consequences

(02:35) The Fine Line Between Protest and Workplace Disruption

(06:13) Google's Response and the Shift in Tech Culture

(07:48) Sponsor: Attio

(11:31) Exploring Solutions and the Future of Workplace Politics

(14:19) Thoughts on Politics in the Workplace

This week Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Peterson Conway, headhunter, investor, and advisor who shares insights from his epic career working closely with Silicon Valley greats like Peter Thiel, Kevin Hartz, Keith Rabois, and Joe Lonsdale. Conway has assembled talent for the founding/early teams of Xoom, Palantir, Founders Fund, and 8VC

Strap in for some crazy stories. Conway's journey highlights the significance of curiosity, optimism, and unconventional hiring practices in Silicon Valley. Conway reflects on the profile of talent he looks for and drills down to certain keywords he uses to search for seeking individuals with strong convictions and a "fight from the bottom" spirit.

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

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SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

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LINKS:

Zero to 1 by Peter Thiel & Blake Masters: https://www.amazon.com.au/Zero-One-Notes-Startups-Future/dp/0804139296Butthole Notorious: https://pconway-73418.medium.com/butthole-notorious-e4ac4ff12db4

Peterson Conway: https://www.petersonconway.com/

KEEP UP WITH PETERSON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Peterson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersonconway/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(01:49) Intro

(02:41) Peterson's Unconventional Path to Silicon Valley Success

(09:23) Navigating Challenges and Learning from Silicon Valley Titans

(16:18) Exploring the Magic of Silicon Valley and Beyond

(18:56) Sponsor: Attio

(24:46) The Dynamics of Connectivity, Safety, and the Future of Work

(27:37) Exploring the Intersection of Fear and Love

(27:55) The Therapeutic Journey: From Fear to Healing

(28:13) On Guilt, Shame, and Vulnerability

(29:55) Unfiltered Conversations: Embracing Discomfort

(31:42) The Power of Silence in Communication

(32:26) Team Construction and the Quest for the Right Hire

(35:04) Recruiting: From Elite Schools to Keyword Searches for Grit and Determination

(39:14) The Role of HR in Shaping Company Culture

(43:36) On Unconventional Recruiting and Finding Hidden Gems

(50:19) The Art of Asking for Forgiveness, Not Permission

(50:41) Wrap

In this segment , Nolan and Kelli discuss new information about Shopify's Mastery Program. Employees are assigned a mastery score, and if their score does not increase, they do not receive a raise. They cover the implications of this new approach, comparing it to previous systems used by other companies which also relied on ratings and algorithms to determine merit increases, and discuss the concept of creating a zero-sum game in the workplace. While not exactly new, internal competition is front and center in Shopify’s transparent new approach.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

Shopify Mastery: https://www.shopify.com/news/mastery

Information article: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/shopify-employees-go-head-to-head-for-raises-in-new-ranking-system

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS

(00:00) Shopify's Mastery Program

(04:34) Exploring the Broader Implications of Performance Review Systems

(08:59) A New Era of Performance Management and Employee Evaluation

(09:04) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(09:57) Nolan’s Time at Carta

(11:55) Commending More Experimentation

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli discuss the audacious quest to change the HR market with Adam Weber, Chief Evangelist of 15Five.

The team discuss the new reality of strategic HR business outcomes and the importance of developing and nurturing high-performance cultures and building great leaders, with the critical necessity of upskilling leadership development fast to adapt to new trends such as the addition of AI which will change the face of how we know HR today.

Adam also advocates for having courage and standing up for what you believe is true in the business and valuing the role of the Individual Contributor.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. Subscribe to our substack: hrheretics.com

SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

Adam wrote the best selling book Lead Like A Human on leadership and culture: how to bring your full self to work and unleash your full potential.

HR Superstars podcast: https://www.15five.com/resources/podcast/

KEEP UP WITH ADAM, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Adam: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetadam/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS

(00:00) Intro

(02:57) From Founder to Team Member

(03:09) Role Power In Practice

(04:51) HR Superstars Community

(05:26) Autonomy and Decision Making Post-Acquisition

(07:22) The Amplify Team's Integration and Evolution Within 15Five

(09:33) Old HR vs New HR: Changes and Expectations

(13:44) What CEO’s think

(15.23) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM

(16:40) Showing Courage and Backing Yourself

(21:11) Understanding the Business on A Deeper Level

(24:40) Superhero Mentality vs Delegator Mentality

(27:10) AI’s Impact on HR

(28:38) Upskilling and the Future of Work

(29:16) The Dichotomy of Company Strategies on Upskilling

(35:00) Celebrating Individual Contributors 

(41:00) Rethinking Best Practices and Embracing Experimentation

(43:32) Visibility and Sharing Wins and Losses 

(46.12) Wrap

HR Heretics bestie Colleen McCreary joins Kelli Dragovich for today’s segment to discuss a recent viral post about a VP People candidate who was denied a job because she didn’t wear makeup. Colleen and Kelli discuss the expectations and norms about appearance in the workplace and the nuances of providing helpful feedback to candidates.

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HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe at hrheretics.substack.com

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SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, KELLI + NOLAN ON LINKEDIN

Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

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LINKS:

Viral Post: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/woman-says-she-denied-job-because-didnt-wear-makeup-aywoe/

Colleen’s Writing: https://medium.com/@colleenwheelermccreary

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Colleen Guests on Today’s Segment

(00:19) The Case of Melissa Weaver & Workplace Appearance Standards

(07:20) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(08:18) The Legal Perspective: Can Appearance Influence Hiring?

(10:18) Navigating Interview Feedback

(15:22) Authenticity at Work

(15:55) Wrap