“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli discuss “happiness police” overkill with Jeff Diana, former Chief People Officer of Calendly and Atlassian.

They talk about the importance of being clear on who you are as a business to avoid massive swings and over-rotations in current HR programs. Jeff believes it’s driving shareholder value that creates employment and that HR pros need to think more like investors and shareholders with focus on business impact rather than focusing on employee satisfaction alone.

Jeff also offers advice on being OK with saying no to a job that doesn’t “light you up”… and testing the alignment with HR philosophies and execution of business outcomes with the ones that do! 

He also offers advice on building a strong relationship with the CEO and is it better to report to a CFO or CEO if you’re aiming for that number 1 CPO role?!

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH JEFF, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jeff: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-diana/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:24) The HR Market Today

(02:37) The Shift in HR's Role

(04:44) Understanding the Market Shift

(05:05) Changes in HR's Role Amidst Economic and Cultural Shifts

(09:23) Over-rotations in HR Programs including DEI and Employee Expectations

(11.40) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(14:19) Understanding Why Businesses Want To Cut HR

(19:05) Embracing Business Model Changes as a Leader

(23:00) Thinking Like an Investor

(25:45) Employee-Employer Dynamics

(26:52) Expectation Misalignment

(29:24) Realigning Business Focus: Mission, Values, and HR Opportunities

(33:23) Due Diligence in Career Moves and Hiring

(36:51) Building Relationships With The CEO 

(45:43) Board Dynamics and CEO Feedback

(49:39) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan discuss the news out of McKinsey this past week: generous packages for employees to opt out of their workforce. Is this a sign that there are no more golden tickets? Kelli and Nolan cover what this move says not only about McKinsey but about pedigreed qualifications more broadly. They also identify the key skillsets for this economy and the single most important thing you can do to make yourself recession-proof.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/attioturpentine

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(00:53) The Opt-Out Strategy: A Personal Perspective

(01:52) Clarity and Transparency in Layoffs

(03:00) Business Continuity During Layoffs

(04:43) Rethinking the Value of Prestigious Institutions

(08:25) Sponsor: Attio

(09:22) Networking and Layoff-Proofing Your Career

(10:39 )The Changing Landscape of Employment and Skills

(13:35) Final Thoughts and Advice for Navigating the Job Market

(14:00) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli chat all things “data from Carta” with Peter Walker, Head of Insights and Data Storytelling at Carta.

They discuss Carta’s comprehensive report on startup compensation trends in H2 of 2023 influencing the flow of “dry powder” and the alarming increase in startup shutdowns. Peter proves VC’s will have less leeway in 2024 to throw good money after bad forecasting an even tougher year ahead.

The team also discuss honesty in HR around equity structures, including liquidation preferences, and Peter offers advice for job candidates on evaluating startup offers with an investor's mindset. 

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH PETER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Peter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjameswalker/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro: Peter Walker and Startup Compensation Trends

(00:39) VC in 2023: Dry Powder and Capital Deployment

(03:02) 2023's Investment Distribution: Early vs. Late Stage

(07:43) Startup Shutdowns and Future Predictions

(11.13) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM

(12:09) The M&A Market for Startups

(15:05) The Impact of the Economic Shift on Startup Hiring and Industry Trends

(21:59) Job Offers in Today's Market

(22.30) Valuations and Equity in Job Negotiations

(24:07) Key Questions Candidates Should Ask About Equity

(25:34) Understanding Equity and Liquidation Preferences

(27:59) Transparency in Startup Equity

(30:17) Educational Resources and Support for Job Candidates

(34:22) Options vs. RSUs in Late-Stage Companies

(37:35) Startup Compensation

(41:21) The Equity Dilemma: Exercising Options and Market Realities

(42:32) Post termination Exercise Window

(43:49) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan tackle the ongoing discussion around remote versus in-person work environments. They talk about the tradeoffs based on where you’re at in your career, the importance of questioning work environment structures, and encouraging listeners to consider what work environment aligns best with their current life phase.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:17) Remote vs. In-Person Work Debate

(01:16) Navigating the Remote Work Landscape

(03:36) Work in the Office if You're Young in Your Career

(06:50) Sponsor: Attio(07:46) Serendipitous Encounters

(08:50) Reflecting on Work-Life Tradeoffs

(10:33) Understanding the Seasons of Your Career(

12:16) Work Culture

(13:00) A Sudden Interruption

(13:08) Wrap

In this episode, Richard Ni joins Nolan and Kelli to discuss diving head first into a leadership role at Scale AI, a Series E AI startup that supplies data for AI models last valued at $7.3B.

From software engineer turned Head of People, Richard talks about his experience heading into a role with zero experience but with an aptitude for people where he needed to be honest with himself about his limitations and how this became pivotal in his learning. He also talks about the importance of building trust with the CEO and the value of self-reflection in career decisions. 

The team also chat about being the bad guy in HR and building thick skin around unpopular company decisions.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe to hrheretics.substack.com and never miss an episode or segment.

--SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

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KEEP UP WITH RICHARD, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Richard: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-ni/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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]TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:56) From Software Engineer to HR Leader

(03:10) The transition from Cruise to Scale AI

(04:33) Leveraging Technical Background in HR and Recruiting

(06:22) Embracing Leadership Roles Early in Career

(11:17) The Power of Authenticity and Self-Awareness in Career Growth

(12:36) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(16:43) Building Trust and Navigating HR Challenges

(20:26) Learning from Mistakes and Valuing External Advice

(23:44) Mentoring

(24:22) Being the 'Bad Guy' in HR

(25:19) Finding Balance: The Importance of Safe Spaces and Ownership

(26:34) The Unpopularity of HR Decisions and Its Impact

(30:21) Learning from Mistakes and Self Reflection

(35:07) Valuing Your Own Happiness

(38:18) Creating a Culture of Openness and Trust

(43:09) Insights on Early Stage Hiring and CEO Involvement

(49:24) Wrap

In this segment, Nolan and Kelli talk about how to be recession-proof and share tactical advice on network-building for a resilient career.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(00:24) How to be Layoff-Proof

(01:00) Investing in Your Network and Building a Recession-Proof Career

(07:08) Practical Steps to Expand Your Professional Network

(10:02) The Job Doesn't Just Happen

(12:35) Sponsor: Attio

(13:32) Make Time to Keep Your Network Warm

(15:24) Expand Your Surface Area of Luck

(17:02) Wrap

In this episode Nolan and Kelli investigate the “recruiting is like art and science” analogy with the Chief People Officer at Pendo, JR Rettig. 

JR digs into the decisions that led her to the CPO seat, working closely with Kelli. JR also covers the needs for businesses to budget for leaving C-Suite leaders and succession planning, the advantages of a hybrid internal and external recruiting method for execs, and how to maintain a high bar in talent acquisition.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now. hrheretics.substack.com

SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH JR, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

JR: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenrettig/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:22) How JR and Kelli Became Work Wives

(05:35) Yin and Yang in Professional Relationships

(08:26) CPO Seat Then and Now

(11:06) Learning Together: The Secret Sauce of Success

(14:10) Sponsor - Attio

(15:06) Pulling top talent in a Competitive Tech Landscape

(19:24) The CEO's Role in Hiring: Ensuring Quality Over Quantity

(24:19) Scaling the Recruiting Team

(28:19) Mindset Shift from Recruiter to TA Leader

(30:11) Maintaining High Quality in Recruitment Amidst Challenges

(34:26) Balancing In-House and Agency Recruitment

(41:49) Succession Planning and Building Trust within Teams

(45:40) A Culture of Openness and Trust for Smooth Transitions

(50:49) What Really Makes a Great Company?

(57:10) Wrap

This segment is all about getting promoted while playing the game of corporate politics, maintaining great relationships, and executing well in your role. In the second half, Kelli and Nolan discuss whether you can get promoted too fast.

Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe: hrheretics.substack.com

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SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:36) What Drives Promotion Obsession?

(01:18) Get Your Foot in the Door, Then Climb the Corporate Ladder

(02:13) The Game of Corporate Politics and Relationships

(04:26) Get Used to the Politics…

(05:21) …But Don’t Be Like a Slimy Car Salesman

(06:21) Advocating for Yourself

(09:10) Sponsor: Attio

(10:05) The Double-Edged Sword of Rapid Promotion

(12:38) Framework for Employee Scaling

(14:51) The Dirty Secret of A Founder Not Doing Well

(16:48) Wrap

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GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli host A.J. Thomas of X, the moonshot factory from Alphabet. A.J for a discussion about failure, innovation, and embracing adversity. They also discuss the importance of scenario planning and asking all the questions upfront as a baseline for business optimization.

While at X, A.J. embraces the notion that professional breakthrough requires personal breakthrough and her perspective on the relentless pursuit of truth, dispassionate assessment, and the power of curiosity provides invaluable insights into cultivating a mindset of innovation and resilience.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe to our Substack: https://hrheretics.substack.com/. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network.

HR Heretics is brought to you by Attio the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:07) Unique Approach to Onboarding

(10:09) Creative Hiring and Community Outreach

(13:07) Change and Clarity

(14:20) Sponsor: Attio

(15:52) Scenario Planning

(19:07) AJ's Journey to X, Google’s Moonshot Factory

(29:56) Embracing Failure

(33:00) The Unrecruiting Route - Why You Shouldn't Join

(42:23) Dispassionate Assessment

(44:46) The Relentless Pursuit of Truth

(47:58) Authenticity

(50:48) Being on the Front Line and the Quest for Learning

KEEP UP WITH A.J., NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

A.J.: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelejeanthomas/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

This segment delves into the intricacies of board member dynamics, specifically focusing on the removal of board members. Highlighted by the situation involving Michael Moritz's removal from Klarna's board, the discussion covers the complexities and nuances of board construction, including the distinction between preferred and independent board members, contract terms, and the impact of diversity.

We need to demystify board operations — how they work, voting dynamics, and what they do! Open call for any listener (ex-CEO preferred) who can come dig into the gritty details of board dynamics in a future episode.

Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe. hrheretics.substack.com

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SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:22) The Complex World of Boards

(03:53) Sponsor - Attio

(04:48) Nolan and Kelli Share their Experiences and Expectations of Board Members

(07:52) Picking Investors and Board Members

(08:22) Board Construction

(09:52) Diversity of Boards When A Company Matures

(10:32) Stories From DoorDash

(11:32) The Mysterious Notion of Board Votes and Equity Approval

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GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co