“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

The only reason we do interviews is because we’ve done them in the past. Hear Nolan and Kelli discuss Linear’s recent announcement that they’re moving from interviews to work trials for all candidates (https://twitter.com/linear/status/1735019663875264958)

Also discussed is Nolan’s experience with a failed interview policy from his time at Google.Let us know what you think by sending us a message on LinkedIn, sharing your thoughts in the comments. Our substack is new and we’re excited about this new way to watch the podcast, so we’d appreciate you subscribing, sharing and forwarding this to anyone you think would love it.

This episode is brought to you by Continuum. Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

- Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

- Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Katelin Holloway, founding partner at VC firm 776 which she started with Alexis Ohanian. Holloway, the former VP of People at Reddit, shares insights from her experience both in HR and breaking into venture. Katelin shares a ton of practical advice - and tactics - for HR leaders who want to start investing or break into VC, explaining how to develop a founder-focussed approach, the benefits of advising relationships, and the need to deliver value.We highly recommend subscribing to free newsletter HR Brew: https://bit.ly/hrbrew

–KEEP UP WITH KATELIN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Katelin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katelinholloway/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

–In addition to being a partner at a VC firm, Katelin hosts the excellent podcast All Hands which we recommend: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/all-hands/id1515795663–TIMESTAMPS:|(00:00) Preview(00:46) Intro(04:24) Waking up one day in the boardroom: Katelin's career journey in HR(11:50) Sponsor - Lattice  | Continuum(13:48) On meeting Alexis Ohanian and the evolution of their relationship(19:03) Getting more people leaders in venture(22:33) The fork in the road: how to transition out successfully from an organization(27:45) Why aren't there a lot of HR people working in venture?(37:32) Katelin's gripes with the VC operating system, and how it’s changing(42:20) Building an investor reputation and brand starts with building a good relationship with founders(49:27) Tactics: How to become an investor(56:22) Past experiences that helped Katelin get to where she is now(58:50) Wrap✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. Joincontinuum.com

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, we have a conversation with Matt Oberhardt, partner at Andreessen Horowitz (a16z), about the complexities of recruiting executives and finding talent. Matt explains the importance of precision in referencing and maintaining professionalism in recruitment processes. We also cover specific advice for founders, the transition of veterans into start-ups, and dealing with the 2024 macro and job market. Find the best fractional execs at Continuum: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co -- SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum ✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics ✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com – KEEP UP WITH MATT, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Matt: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattoberhardt/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ – LINKS: Andreessen Horowitz Exec Hiring Guide: https://a16z.com/executive-hiring/ – TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (03:21) Matt's Role at a16z and Approach in Talent Assessment (06:10) Balancing External and Internal Roles (07:35) Measuring Success in Talent Assessment (09:10) The MOC Process in Executive Hiring (15:02) Assessing Fit in Executive Hiring (18:39) Effective Reference Processing (22:25) Support our sponsors: Lattice | Continuum (24:35) Dealing with Negative References (26:48) The Importance of Nuance in Hiring (27:46) The Concept of Personal Growth in Candidates (28:43) Reengaging with Executives and Understanding Their Growth (29:56) The Challenge of Making Decisions as a Founder (37:44) The Role of Veterans in Startups (44:16) The Impact of Market Shifts on Hiring (46:49) The Challenge of Retaining Top Talent (50:55) The Value of Tough Feedback in Interviews

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Jen Trzepacz, or JT as she's widely known, is a Silicon Valley vet (Yahoo, EA, Salesforce, Living Social) and currently the CPO of SymphonyAI. JT joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to talk about how HR needs to be expertly aligned with the business bottom line, how to do transparency around compensation well, how to recruit the best talent, navigating complicated CEO relationships, and takes us on a trip down memory lane for her biggest F-ups.
HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
--
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com
–
KEEP UP WITH JT, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
JT: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jetrzepacz/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Preview and Intro
(04:33) Jen's biggest F-ups in her career
(07:35) The merit files of Yahoo and the ripple effects
(15:12) JT's thoughts on comp transparency today
(20:09) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum
(21:54) Making hard trade offs and understanding competitive differentiation
(41:10) When the relationship between a CEO and CPO doesn't work
(47:01) JT's best hire and her secret weapon in the candidate experience
(51:49) JT's favorite interview question that gets the best signal on candidates
(55:46) Chief people officers are going to have to deal with AI

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Friends of the podcast and experienced CPOs Colleen McCreary (CreditKarma, Zynga, Twilio, EA) and David Hanrahan (Flare, formerly EventBrite, Zendesk) join hosts Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for this roundtable discussion of where the puck is going for DEI in 2024. They offer their takes on the progress made over the years, the current camps in this debate propelled by the recent capitol hill hearings and Harvard controversy, and the necessity of founders and companies to better understand their own priorities and define their position on DEI.

Check out our individual episodes with both Colleen and David who have both been former guests on the show!
Colleen McCreary on Layoffs, M&A, and Recruiting the Best Talent - https://open.spotify.com/episode/0WuLzUYeDaPIsOTbtTCZFD?si=aLgdLcjTR0eK6wBCv6KrGw


David Hanrahan on High Performance, Comp Strategy, Performance Cycles, and New Norms - https://open.spotify.com/episode/46H0HSchsnl52DaP9aPsrG?si=jTZ9tTjzR36cNsdqPkjrAQ


HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
–
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com
–
KEEP UP WITH Q, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/
David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
LINKS:
Roxanne Petraeus, CEO of Ethena: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/harvard-dei-interview-question-best-avoided-roxanne-bras-petraeus-wzope/
Joelle Emerson’s piece: https://fortune.com/2024/01/04/anti-dei-movement-fringe-mainstream-corporate-america-diversity-equity-inclusion-meaning-joelle-emerson/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Preview and Intro
(01:16) The current facts about DEI
(04:50) The inability to have a real dialogue about what practices work and what practices matter
(06:59) Current conversations move people out of the conversation on DEI to the detriment of an effort on diversity
(09:07) The prerequisites of doing DEI the right way
(11:08) The impossibility of measuring belonging in a company
(14:19) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum
(16:05) The impossibility of measuring belonging in a company (continued)
(17:57) Allocating resources and improving a company's DEI efforts and programs
(31:50) Where do we see the puck going with DEI in the future?
(41:05) When CPOs can't be everything for everybody and the importance of going back to who you are, your values and your culture
(46:22) DEI in 2024 is going to be more of an expectation of leadership as opposed to standalone efforts

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Q Hamirani, the Chief People Officer at Paper, joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to discuss navigating the CPO seat under immense pressure, the real deal behind Airbnb's remote work policy, how design thinking helps solve people problems, and how the people function should not be left behind by the AI revolution. They also touch on great stories and tactical insights from Q's time as AirBnB s and his current CPO role at edtech company Paper (https://paper.co/).

Learn more about Q's AI community for people leaders: https://www.thepeoplegpt.com/

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
--
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com
–
KEEP UP WITH Q, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Q: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamirani/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00) Preview
(01:30) Q's wild background
(07:40) How the engineer in Q handled the rejection going into HR
(09:27) Having a business background
(11:37) Balancing the dynamics of design thinking and love for iteration
(13:07) Transitioning from Airbnb to Paper
(17:27) On avoiding burnout while building your team
(19:47) How Airbnb handled layoffs
(23:53) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum
(25:37) The Digital Nomad program
(31:05) What would Q change in terms of handling comp given the circumstances of today's market?
(33:50) The future of work debate with AI
(36:38) Getting people back in the office and maintaining morale
(41:51) How do you react when things don't go your way?
(48:21) AI and the direction of People Ops and recruiting
(57:10) Q's favorite interview question
(58:10) Q's best hire and why

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

At scaling companies. navigating parting ways with an executive requires finesse, strategic insights, and insider experience. Run The Numbers podcast invited Kelli and Nolan to break down every facet, lever, and little known facts behind successfully exiting execs. Its a great conversation - Kelli and Nolan have seen it all and break down termination packages, terms like double trigger and garden leave, exec pay parity, and how to fire CEOs. Definitely check out Run The Numbers! Listen wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

--
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9

Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com

–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST: Run The Numbers
Definitely check out Run The Numbers! Listen wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers
–
KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, KELLI , and CJ
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
CJ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/

–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Intro
(02:08) Exec Departures
(03:47) How the Decision-Making Process Happens in Executive Departures
(04:49) The Continuum of Executive Departures
(05:57) The Ideal Scenario
(06:42) The Challenges of Replacing Executives
(09:03) The Compensation Aspect of Executive Departures
(10:59) The Controversy Around Executive Severance Packages
(16:06) The Biggest Golden Parachute
(22:11) The Concept of Garden Leave
(23:40) Understanding Single Trigger vs Double Trigger Clauses
(25:41) Understanding the Double Trigger
(26:03) Kelli's Experience with Double Trigger at Looker
(27:12) Sponsors: Lattice | Continuum
(28:57) Common Positions to Get Axed
(29:30) The Importance of Parity Among Executives
(31:30) The Role of Employment Agreements
(39:22) The Process of Firing a CEO
(45:45) How to Handle Being Fired as an Executive

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Dan Portillo is the founder and GP of The General Partnership, a fund that prioritizes talent in a network-based approach. Formerly he was early-Mozilla and then went on to Greylock where he carved out a role as a talent partner. Dan talks to Nolan and Kelli about how VC and VC talent partners operate, an influential world that most people in the venture and startup ecosystem don't actually know that much about. They also talk about backchannels, going from HR leadership roles to finding success as an advisor, and the necessary skill of framing new ideas as experiments. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
--
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST:
Check out Run The Numbers! Kelli and Nolan were guests on the most recent episode: a deep dive into FIRING CEOs and EXECS. This one's hilarious. Listen here, wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers
–
KEEP UP WITH DAN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Dan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielportillo/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Preview
(02:40) Dan talks about Mozilla, being the 20th employee, his role and how the became the VP of Talent
(06:21) On scaling Mozilla: handling both the HR side and recruiting side
(10:00) Dan's take on creating a leveling structure and performance reviews
(13:00) Dan talks about his journey building talent at Greylock
(17:05) Dan's experience working with the founders Greylock has backed
(19:35) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum
(21:20) Dan's "Aha!" moments with executive hiring and with how the industry shifted from 2011 to 2018
(25:55) Dan's transition from Greylock to Sweat Equity Ventures (now The General Partnership)
(34:30) Shifting from Talent to VC and making the portfolio companies better
(38:40) Should I get into a VC talent partner role?
(41:00) How to get into advising and pitfalls to be careful of
(43:32) When does a founder need an advisor?
(44:55) Dan's expectations expecting going into 2024 and how he is positioning the fund and advising founders
(47:30) Dan's best hire and why
(50:25) Dan's secret for finding undiscovered talent
(52:30) The power of back channels and executive hiring
(55:00) Seven degrees from Dan Portillo

LINKS:
https://www.thegp.com/builders/daniel-portillo

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Kelli and Nolan discuss their different perspectives on the effectiveness of DEI initiatives and the temperature in tech businesses right now.
–
Feedback is welcome - send a note to Kelli and Nolan on LI to let us know what you think.
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–

SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.joincontinuum.com

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Cara Brennan Allamano is the Chief People Officer at Lattice and previously at Udemy, Pinterest, and Adobe. Nolan and Kelli talk to Cara about the intricacies of building relationships with CEOs, different career paths for people leadership, undergoing layoffs with dignity, and the importance of saying "no" when necessary for the health of the organization. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
--
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST:
Check out Run The Numbers! Kelli and Nolan were guests on the most recent episode: a deep dive into FIRING CEOs and EXECS. This one's hilarious. Listen here, wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers
–
KEEP UP WITH CARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Cara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carabrennan/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Episode Preview
(03:16) Being a people officer but having low tolerance for pain
(05:40) On getting excited about helping other people become successful
(06:55) The meta thing of careers according to Cara
(10:58) How do you get to that point where you can say no to your CEO?
(13:24) Sponsors - Lattice | Continuum
(14:52) How do you pick the right CEO to work with?
(17:17) On building a CPO career: Shiny object syndrome and focusing on the relationship with the CEO
(22:36) The paradox of choice
(30:40) On leaders coming outside of HR into HR
(37:34) Cara's insight on rolling layoffs
(41:46) Cara's biggest screw up in her career
(45:42) What does it look like to be an effective people team?
(46:56) All anybody wants is to be heard and respected
(50:50) On the biggest things to build successors in Lattice (and the idea of meritocracy)
(53:59) Cara's best hire
(54:40) Cara's favorite interview question that gets the best signal on candidates

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com