On writing for the female gaze, with Jasmine Guillory

You are listening to Burnt Toast!Today, my guest is the brilliant Jasmine Guillory.

Jasmine is a New York Times-bestselling author of nine novels, including The Wedding Date, The Proposal, and her brand new book Flirting Lessons.

This is an absolutely delightful conversation. Jasmine and I get into why she is publishing her first queer romance. We talk a lot about fat rep in romance novels, and we also talk about gardening. It’s so much fun!

You can order Flirting Lessons through the Burnt Toast Bookshop. Don’t forget, you can always take 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk from Split Rock Books! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)

Episode 188 Transcript

Virginia

We are here to talk about Flirting Lessons. I completely inhaled it on vacation last month. It is such a treat. I was already a Noble Vineyards fan, so getting to follow these characters was really fun. But this book is also exciting because it is your first queer romance!

Jasmine

It is. I’m very excited about it! I hope people like it.

Virginia

Tell us how this came to be.

Jasmine

I have been wanting to write a queer romance for a while. But my publishing schedule was kind of set. I had other books planned, so I didn’t quite get to this one as soon as I wanted to. But Avery and Taylor were both characters in my last book, Drunk On Love, and as soon as I wrote them, I was like, oh yeah, these two. So it was really fun to get to write their book.

I also took a little break in between books because I was just very burnt out. During the pandemic, I wrote three books back-to-back-to-back, and then had the idea for this book and tried to start writing it, and was like, oh, no, I can’t. I have no ideas. I am empty.

Once I got excited about writing again, it was really fun to come back to Avery and Taylor. I was really excited about them, and to get to write a fun, happy story of them out in the world, exploring each other and learning new things. We had a lot of fun with it.

Virginia

You have a job that I think most people would think sounds like the most fun job in the world. But as a fellow writer—although I don’t get to write romance—writing burnout is real. So I’m glad you were able to take time and take care of that, because it becomes really not fun really fast.

Jasmine

It was really helpful that I have a very supportive publishing team. Many years ago, actually, I was talking to my editor, I asked her a question about one of her other writers and when her next book was coming out. And she was like, “Oh, it’s not coming for a while. She needs to take a break. She was really burnt out.” And then she said to me, “If this ever happens to you, don’t worry. Just let me know. You take your break whenever you need to.” And she told me this five or six years before it happened to me. But it was so nice that I didn’t have to really worry, “will my editor be mad at me?” I’m blowing my deadlines, whatever.

It was funny, because right before I realized I needed a break, I had a conversation with my agent, and I don’t even remember what I said exactly. And I said something about publishing or trying to write. And she was like, “Pkay, that’s it. You need a break. You’re not allowed to try anything, like write anything, for at least another month. And then we’ll talk.” And I was like, oh, okay. I think I needed someone to just tell me.

And it was great, because once I started getting excited about writing again, then it was fun again. When it wasn’t fun was when I was trying to push through it.

Virginia

I love that. I’m so glad you have people you’re working with who see that and get that. We need more of that.

It sounds like you’d been thinking about this book for a while. Was there any pushback or questions, or anything from your team when you were like, “It’s going to be Taylor and Avery? We’re doing a queer romance this time.”

Jasmine

No, not at all. They were really excited. They were like, okay, great. What’s their story? What are we going to do? So that was really good. It helped I think that I’ve had a number of the people on my publishing team have been the same people for a long time, so I wasn’t really worried about that. But it was nice that nobody blinked.

Virginia

I think it speaks to how romance in general has just—and you’ve been a huge part of this—as a genre, it has exploded in so many wonderful, inclusive directions in the last decade. There was always an audience for queer romance, but now the the industry knows there’s an audience for queer romance.

Jasmine

Exactly right. As with so many of the other kinds of diversity that have gotten good sales over the past 10 years: There was always an audience for those things. It took publishers a while to figure that out.

Virginia

They had to keep seeing the math.

Of course, I want to talk about Taylor Cameron. She stood out to me in Drunk On Love, as such a fun, fantastic character. And I just love how you write her. She is introduced to us as this insanely hot person. She’s an incredible flirt. Everybody in Napa Valley wants to sleep with her. And she’s fat.

You kind of casually work that in. There’s a moment where they’re at a spa and she’s like, “Oh, yeah, I can’t ever wear the women’s robes. I’ve got to go walk around naked till they realize they need to get me a better robe.” And it’s unapologetic. It’s just part of who she is. It’s not a plot point. It’s not something that needs defending. I’d just love to hear you talk about how you think about that, as you’re thinking of characters.

Jasmine

I think there were a few things. I mean, first of all, I love reading books where there are fat women who don’t care about being fat, right? Too often, it’s like, oh, I have to worry about this or I’m trying to lose weight, or whatever. And that’s not everybody. That’s not who I see out in the world. I see so many unapologetic fat women who have great relationships and everybody likes them and everybody cares about them and I wanted to represent people like that in fiction.

I think Taylor very much knows herself, knows her body, knows how she is attractive to other people. And I also think that the queer community tends to be—well, women in general tend to be much—I don’t want to say better, but that’s part of it—about accepting other kinds of body sizes and shapes and finding them exciting and attractive. And so that was another fun thing to explore.

Virginia

I think that’s so needed. There are a lot of examples, as you said, of the apologetic fat character. Who is often written by straight sized folks who just haven’t lived this experience. They can’t imagine it not being something that people would feel the need to define themselves by or apologize for and all of that. It’s just always a delight to get a book and be like, okay, it’s going to be a different version of that here. It’s a safer reading experience, I think, for a lot of folks.

Jasmine

In so many books there’s a moment where you’re like, oh, I didn’t expect that little hit to the ego. And I never want people to have that experience when reading my books. I mean, I don’t want me to have that experience when reading any books! And so I try to think about that and pay attention to that.

Virginia

It’s always disappointing.

Obviously, across romance, I think we’re making some pretty good progress on fat rep. I think again, you were a real trailblazer on this, and there are a lot of other wonderful authors doing it now. But it’s still by no means a given. Where do you think the industry is on this? Where are you still running into brick walls?

Jasmine

I think some of the brick walls just come from, at least for me, not my editor, my publisher, like my agent, they’re all great. Sometimes it’s retailers, right? If there’s a book with a fat woman on the cover, will they want to put it front and center? Or will, will they want to stock it at all? Sometimes it’s in the right cover design. Sometimes retailers will come back when there’s a cover and be like, we don’t love it. And if it’s a big enough retailer, you have to fix the cover or change the cover. And so sometimes it’s that they don’t want a woman who looks like that on the cover or they don’t want someone with too dark of skin on the cover, or anything like that.

And then some of it is readers, sometimes. It’s retailers thinking that readers will think this, and sometimes it’s readers actually thinking this. You’ll see it in reviews, which I tried to avoid reading. But yeah, sometimes they get slapped in your face. Like, “well, would someone with a body like that really think about that though? Like, I don’t know if someone would really find her attractive.” That happens all the time. That’s some of the pushback that you get.

Virginia

Yeah, the reader response is really interesting. I had Nisha Sharma on the podcast last year. And she was talking about how sometimes at book events, readers will say, like, I didn’t think this book was for me, because, either because they’re thin or because they’re white. And she’s like, well, you read books about serial killers, but you’re not a serial killer.

Jasmine

Right? You read books about dukes in 19th century England, but you’re not a duke.

Virginia

Like, you managed to make those leaps, why is this a hard? It’s fascinating that this comes up.

Jasmine

I think it’s fascinating, but also so anti-my experience, because I grew up reading all sorts of books that had nothing to do with me. I don’t think about having to relate to the main character.

Virginia

You’re not reading in front of the mirror when you read a book.

Jasmine

I guess, if you grow up reading books where the characters look like you, and have specific experiences that you do, you think about books in that way. It has never been anything that I had have ever thought about.

Virginia

Yeah, and it’s limiting. I mean, it just is. Of course, it’s powerful to see ourselves reflected in books. That’s why representation matters. But it shouldn’t be just this one default experience all the time.

Jasmine

Yeah, some people have very strong preferences for point of view in books, which I just don’t care about at all. But I’ve seen people say that they prefer first person because they like to envision themselves as the character, which is never anything that I would have thought of. But I think so many people are just used to reading books where they can do that.

Virginia

What do you hear from readers for whom your books are offering them representation for the first time?

Jasmine

That has been one of the most rewarding things. I’m going on book tour next month. And in many cases, book tours are exhausting because it’s like so much travel and going from place to place and airplanes and events and stuff. But the actual events just fill me up because I have so many readers who say, “I see myself represented here, I see my relationships, I see my family in ways that I haven’t seen in other books or that I didn’t expect to see.” Things like that from readers really just keep me going. It just does feel really wonderful to hear that and to and also to feel like something that I have written resonates with other people in that way. It really just makes such a big difference to me to hear that.

Virginia

You’re showing people different possibilities sometimes. Another thing Nisha mentioned was hearing from fat readers saying, “I didn’t know a fat person could have sex that way.” And like, it devastates me that someone would become a fully formed adult, not have had that get clear to them that that’s possible. But that’s why the power of fat bodies in positive, joyful sex scenes, is really important.

Jasmine

Absolutely, I totally agree. And being able to think, “there are people who find that kind of a body attractive, maybe they will find me attractive, too,” I think is really incredible, especially for maybe younger readers. I’m not talking about teenagers, well maybe teenagers, but people in their 20s maybe who have only ever seen a certain body type reflected in this is who is attractive. And I think one of the delightful things about romance novels and especially queer romance novels about women, is that I am writing to the female gaze here. It’s women appreciating women, which is very fun to write and it’s very fun to read.

Virginia

Was it different writing the sex scenes for this book, compared to past novels?

Jasmine

Yes and no. I think the most fun part of writing sex scenes, for me, is always writing about female pleasure. So it was just like a lot more of that.

Virginia

It’s now doubled, literally, twice as much female pleasure. I mean, that is what is so wonderful about your work is how much it centers female pleasure.

Jasmine

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

Virginia

I checked in with podcast listeners to see if folks had questions for you, and one that actually came up more than once was okay, the book is called Flirting Lessons. Can Jasmine give us a flirting lesson?

Jasmine

There are a few things that Taylor tells Avery early on. But I think one of the things that I had her keep emphasizing is: You want this to be fun for you, too. Only flirt with people who you find attractive, who you want to flirt with. And if it’s not fun for you, then you can stop. This isn’t something that you have to do. One of the things about flirting is that it should be fun and exciting. And if you’re not getting that back, then you move on to the next person. There are lots of people who you can flirt with, and that’s okay. And I think that’s something that people think too much about. Like, is the other person enjoying this and not am I enjoying this?

Virginia

Yes! Because as women, that’s what we’re conditioned to think: Am I doing what he wants (or they want) as opposed to centering our own pleasure?

Jasmine

Yes. One of the things about flirting is you have to be willing to put yourself out there. You want people to know that you are flirting with them, and that feels scary because you’re setting yourself up for rejection. Like, what if this person is like, oh, I don’t want to flirt with her. Okay, then you move on. But I think that is kind of one of the barriers to get over is like, you you have to let yourself be open to that, and then if it’s not good, then you just move on.

Virginia

Yeah, because if it’s not good, it won’t be fun for you.

For folks who haven’t read the book yet, Taylor has many excellent flirting tips. Like, the whole book is her taking Avery on these flirting lessons where they go out in the world. Especially in this era of mostly online dating, I was just so nervous for Avery.

I should say, Jasmine, I am divorced after an almost-25-year relationship. So my experience of dating in my 40s has been mostly really great—but I really felt for Avery in that panic of, I’m really going to go out there? I have to talk to people. What?

Jasmine

Yeah, because it is scary, right? I think that was one of the fun things about writing this book as we are coming out of a period where we were all shut in and not really talking, not encountering people out in the world, was to think about where would they go? What would they do? What are situations where you’re just meeting new people? And I think one of the things is having things already built in to talk about. Like the first flirting lesson that they go on—minor spoiler—is at a bookstore for a book event. And like, you have something to talk about. You’re there at a bookstore, you can talk about books. You can talk about the author that you’re there to see. You could talk about what other books have you read? And so that helps us, we already have a built in topic that I can talk to a stranger about and then maybe it’ll go from there. And thinking about things like that was really fun for me. How it’s a slightly safe setup for for them to start with that and then kind of keep going.

Virginia

A lot of the advice was about making friends as well. It’s not just, would I want to sleep with this person? It’s about being open to all kinds of relationships. And that was really beautiful. I really enjoyed that theme.

Jasmine

Yeah, absolutely. I hear a lot of people ask you the questions, like, how do you make friends as an adult? And I think the the answers are the same, right? You have to be willing to put yourself out there. You have to be willing to say to someone who is basically a stranger, like, do you want to get coffee sometime? Or, we talked about that cool bar, do you want to meet there for a drink sometime? And I think that’s hard and scary for people, but that’s how I’ve made some of my closest friendships.

Butter

Jasmine

It is springtime or getting close to and I’m getting slightly obsessed with planning my garden. I, as Avery does in the book, like, learned to garden. And I have been lightly obsessed with planting for years. And then a few years ago, I bought a house. And then now have a very small amount of things to plant, and have started planting as much as possible in all of that. So I have six new rose bushes ready to be planted in space that I don’t have. And I have been planting lots of herbs and some sugar snap peas. There’s a great book that came out last year, I think it just came out in paperback called Soil. It’s by a Black woman and it’s about planting and gardening and the history of doing that. And it was very fun to read, and it’s very fun to like think about at a time like this.

Virginia

I am a hardcore gardener as well, and also regularly have more plants than I have space for. That’s a deeply relatable problem.

Jasmine

I’ve been inspired by you, actually, because was it last year that you only planted flowers? And I planted a bunch of roses, but not a lot of other flowers, and this year I want to plant more flowers.

Virginia

I strongly encourag that. We really underestimate the absolute necessity of growing beautiful flowers. Like, it’s an essential in my mind.

Interestingly, now there’s some pushback in my household that we should maybe get back to doing some more food, and I’m like, should we? Where’s that going to go? Because I really need all the space for the dahlias. I don’t know what to tell you. We’re trying to carve out different areas so it can be a little more of a mix. But it’s so satisfying and fun. That’s a great Butter.

Anything else you want to recommend?

Jasmine

I have read a few great books recently. I read the upcoming novel by Taylor Jenkins Reid, Atmosphere. It’s about two women in the space program in the 80s. It is so good. I loved it. It was one of those I read in a day. I mean, I was on vacation, so I could do that. But I loved it so much.

I’m reading. Alexis Daria’s newest one right now, It’s called, Along Came Amor, it’s so good. It’s about the oldest cousin in the family—which, I am from a big family and a lot of the family stuff in it I really related to, and also I am the oldest sister and my mom is also the oldest sister. So, a lot of that kind of stuff, I related to and I loved the characters. So those are two of the most recent books that I’ve read that I really loved.

I’m in the midst of Kennedy Ryan’s upcoming book, which is just lovely. It’s called, Can’t Get Enough. I’m in the middle of that and it’s, I mean, her writing is just so beautiful all the time. It’s great to kind of linger in.

Virginia

Those are such good recs. I’m adding all of them to my to be read pile, which is, of course, a never ending list.

I’m going to do two book recs as well. One is Fang Fiction by Kate Stayman-London.

Jasmine

Oh, I love Kate. I haven’t read this one yet, but I need to get to it, because everybody’s told me it’s so good.

Virginia

It’s so delightful, especially if you are a Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan or a Twilight fan, or were ever in the vampire genre. It’s a romance, but it’s a whole, delightful experience. It’s someone who’s a fan of vampire novels who ends up inside a vampire novel, etc. It’s great. It was really, really fun read.

And then the other one I just finished, actually, on audiobook. My podcast cohost

Corinne Fay

recommended this a few weeks ago, but I’m just going to second Corinne’s endorsement ofThe Safekeepby Yael van der Wouden. I’m probably mispronouncing that. I’m so sorry. It is an erotic story of love and obsession in 1960s Amsterdam.

Jasmine

Someone else told me about this book. I’ve heard about this book from a few other writers, and I need to really read it.

Virginia

Corinne didn’t want to say too much about it, and now I understand why. There’s a lot of twists, so I don’t want to say too much, but it does center a queer romance, which is really fascinating in that time and place. It also has a lot to do with post World War II Europe. I was totally absorbed in it. I had a long road trip this weekend and just kept being like, when am I back in my car so I can listen to that book some more?

Jasmine

Okay. I need to get to it.

Virginia

Well, Jasmine, this was so much fun. Thank you for taking the time to hang out with us. I am such a fan of your work. All of your novels are must reads. And I want folks to check out Flirting Lessons. So tell us where to find you, how we support your work, all those things.

Jasmine

I’m on Instagram at JasminePics. My website is Jasmineguillory.com and on the events page, you can find links to all of my upcoming book tour events and doing a bunch on the Eastern seaboard and then in the Midwest, and then the West coast. So hopefully I will be coming to a city near you, and you’ll be able to come out.

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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!