The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player!

Overview

In this episode, Rob and Greg dive into the recurring issue of embezzlement and financial mismanagement within small Realtor associations. Using recent cases as a jumping-off point, they debate what "transparency" should actually look like in a member-driven nonprofit, whether associations should provide full access to financial records, and what safeguards could reasonably prevent future financial failures. The discussion gets spirited as they explore audits, member oversight, governance culture, and how much transparency is too much—or not enough.

Key Takeaways

• Embezzlement in small associations: Recent cases highlight how financially fragile many smaller associations are and how one incident can destabilize them.

• Audit funding proposals: Rob suggests that state or national associations should fund audits for smaller associations that can't afford them.

• Transparency debate: Rob advocates for allowing any member to inspect line-item financials; Greg argues that professional audits—not member investigations—are the correct mechanism for oversight.

• Concerns about disruption: Greg emphasizes how untrained members digging through records could create confusion, waste staff time, or misinterpret legitimate expenses.

• Proper purpose & confidentiality: Rob proposes a compromise where members may inspect records but must keep information within the association; Greg notes NDAs may be required due to vendor contract confidentiality.

• Governance culture: Both agree that trust has eroded in parts of organized real estate, though they disagree on the extent and cause.

• Association survival risk: When embezzlement happens in small associations, they may face insolvency or be forced to merge.

• Checks & balances: Discussion includes dual-signature thresholds, expense-tracking systems like Ramp, and the importance of third-party annual audits.

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The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player!

Overview

Rob and Greg break down the newest developments in NAR governance, the fallout from the failed referral-fee disclosure vote, and the rapid moves by industry players like eXp and CAR to implement their own transparency standards. They also examine broader structural questions: Should MLSs raise the bar? Is the NAR brand salvageable? The conversation then turns to Zillow's decision to remove climate-risk scores, shifting public sentiment, and the growing political and economic pressures facing housing, affordability, and real estate professionals.

Key Takeaways

• NAR's proposed change to the Code of Ethics regarding referral-fee disclosure failed—not at the board level, but at the delegate body, highlighting severe governance issues.

• eXp and the California Association of REALTORS® are moving ahead with their own transparency and disclosure updates, signaling a break from NAR's direction.

• The discussion raises whether MLSs should (or realistically can) "raise the bar," with Rob arguing it could undermine the MLS value proposition.

• Greg and Rob note that weakened enforcement and membership incentives make it difficult for NAR to rebuild the Realtor brand without major structural reform.

• Zillow has removed on-site climate risk scores after industry pushback, which Rob frames as Zillow aligning with shifting consumer and cultural sentiment.

• The hosts raise concerns about affordability, generational frustration, and political volatility—warning that real estate professionals must better understand and respond to consumer mood.

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The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview

In this episode, Rob and Greg dive into the newly surfaced Zillow–Compass court documents, a leaked Zillow strategy plan, and Mike DelPrete's analysis of the preliminary injunction hearing. They also discuss the broader market context—from the real cost of living in 2025 to generational tension—and debate whether the lawsuit will meaningfully change industry behavior. The conversation closes with predictions, stakes, and possible compromise paths between Compass and Zillow.

Key Takeaways

• A "must-read" macro article kicks off the show.

  Rob discusses a Substack piece on the U.S. poverty line and how outdated metrics distort today's economic reality. Zillow and housing affordability tie back into the industry.

• The leaked Zillow strat plan is unusually strong.

  Both hosts agree the internal document is one of the most robust strategic plans seen in real estate, showing detailed situational analysis and clear tactical pathways. MLSs should study its structure.

• Compass vs. Zillow: The PI hearing matters.

  Rob argues the preliminary injunction ruling may reshape industry norms more than the eventual trial. If Compass wins, Zillow may need to pivot fast. If Zillow wins, Compass may face recruiting and retention issues.

• DelPrete's takeaway: "Nothing will change."

  Greg leans toward this view, citing industry inertia. Rob disagrees, pointing to long-term structural shifts like MLS loss of compensation and NAR's diminishing relevance.

• Broker exclusives and 3PM are the core battle.

  The debate centers on whether private/preview listings harm consumers or empower brokers. Greg doubts the model's long-term viability; Rob sees competitive incentives that could drive proliferation.

• Potential compromise ideas emerge.

  The hosts float options such as removing Days on Zillow, hiding public price-change history, or creating a paid Zillow product for private listings. No clear middle ground exists yet.

• Predictions and a steak-dinner bet.

  Both tentatively lean toward Compass having a better storytelling advantage in court, though the outcome is far from certain.

Links

Zillow's coordinated pressure campaign against MLSs Ocusell Fills the Gap Aligned Showings A Strategic Analysis of the Compass v. Zillow Court Hearing

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The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player!

Overview

Rob and Greg break down what happened at NAR NXT in Houston — from the empty expo floor to major MLS–Association policy changes. Greg shares on-the-ground insights from meetings, parties, and conversations with MLS leaders, while Rob analyzes the strategic implications of NAR's 18-point PAG recommendations and what he calls the "emancipation" of MLSs. They also discuss winners and losers of the policy shifts, potential impacts on associations, vendors, portals, and brokers, and tee up a future episode on NAR's new strategic plan.

Key Takeaways

• Expo Floor Shift: Major real estate brands were largely absent, and new vendors were mostly centralized in the REACH kiosk area. NAR's pavilion took up a large portion of the floor.

• Tightened Meeting Access: Vendors and some MLS staff were denied entry to MLS policy roundtables, signaling increased NAR gatekeeping.

• Policy Changes = MLS Freedom: NAR repealed disciplinary guidelines and removed the requirement for MLS users to be association members, pushing authority to the local level. Rob argues this effectively removes NAR from the MLS business.

• Winners & Losers:

  • Winners: Large MLSs, large brokers, possibly Zillow (depending on data access negotiations).

  • Losers: State and local associations relying on mandatory membership; potentially Realtor.com as syndication leverage shifts.

• Associations Must Reinvent: Without mandatory membership, associations must create new value propositions and revenue paths.

• Strategic Plan Concerns: Rob calls NAR's new strategic plan "a pile" of platitudes and plans a full breakdown in a future episode.

• Parties & Atmosphere: Rentspree, ICE, and others hosted strong events, but the conference felt less relevant overall with notable CEO absences.

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The Listing Bits Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player!

Overview

Rob and Greg dig into expectations for the NAR Annual Conference, MLS attendance patterns, and broader industry sentiment heading into 2025. They cover speculation around possible committee decisions, how the settlement fallout is (or isn't) impacting MLS membership and commissions, and the overall vibe leading into the event. The conversation then shifts to affordability, mortgage rates, and the recent proposal of a 50-year mortgage. They close with discussion of a new Zillow/RESPA-related lawsuit, Rocket/Redfin implications, and observations from Zillow Unlock.

Key Takeaways

• Some MLS leaders are skipping NAR due to light agenda relevance, travel issues, and lack of urgency.

• Despite settlement fears, MLS membership has not dropped significantly, and commissions have not fallen.

• Rob argues the industry culture—not MLS policy—has propped up commissions.

• Greg suggests the settlement was overhyped given limited negative fallout so far.

• Conversation on affordability explores whether lowering interest rates would meaningfully increase transactions.

• New Alaska Zillow lawsuit may signal potential RESPA exposure tied to loan-capture strategies.

• Rocket/Redfin may have structural protection due to W-2 agent model.

• Zillow Unlock was described as polished, high-end, highly attended by top-producing agents.

• Vendor experience at Unlock: fewer "newbies," easier conversations, strong integration environment.

Links

• "Stand up for the MLS"

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The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player!

Overview

Rob and Greg discuss Zillow's recent privacy policy changes to Follow Up Boss and the growing debate around data use and agent trust. They examine how Zillow's communication strategy has affected its reputation, drawing comparisons to past acquisitions like dotloop and ShowingTime. The conversation explores whether this move signals a broader industry shift in how tech companies handle customer data, AI integration, and transparency with agents.

Key Takeaways

• Zillow's new Follow Up Boss privacy policy grants broader access to agent and client data.

• Rob believes the change isn't malicious but calls it a major communication failure by Zillow.

• Greg points out that Zillow lacks a dedicated team for agent-facing product communication.

• The term "mutual customer" triggered agent backlash and should have been caught before release.

• Both agree the issue highlights a pattern of Zillow "revising promises" made in previous acquisitions.

• The discussion raises questions about trust, data usage for AI training, and the long-term impact on agent relationships.

• Rob argues the real strategic risk is eroding trust—industry partners may start adding "yet" to every Zillow assurance.

• Greg suggests this is part of a larger trend across tech companies as privacy expectations evolve

Links

Follow Up Boss changes privacy policy: chaos ensues

Zillow, Follow Up Boss, ChatGPT: How to Protect Your Clients and Build a Moat

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The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player!

Overview

Rob and Greg dive into Sean Frank's Inman article, "NAR and the Real Estate Industry's Relevance Problem." They discuss how outdated MLS technology and excessive bureaucracy are stifling innovation in real estate. From permissioning delays to governance breakdowns, the hosts explore why MLS systems feel stuck in "Windows 95 mode" and debate how consolidation or standardization could spark change.

Key Takeaways

• MLS permissioning and governance are major obstacles to innovation.

• Outdated tech systems like Matrix and Paragon still dominate the industry.

• Excessive committee layers make it nearly impossible for startups to launch quickly.

• Greg proposes a standardized, simplified data licensing process to fast-track innovation.

• Rob argues the problem stems from bureaucracy, not infrastructure or tech.

• NAR and CMLS lack the power to enforce national-level reform, leaving MLSs fragmented.

• Both agree the industry needs "fair permissioning guidelines" similar to standardized contracts in other fields.

Links

• Inman article: "NAR and the Real Estate Industry's Relevance Problem"

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Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player!

Overview

In this episode, Rob and Greg dive into the controversy surrounding CRMLS's End User License Agreement (EULA) and the debate over MLS data ownership. The discussion begins with updates in the MLS world that brought attention to how CRMLS's EULA—originally updated for two-factor authentication—resurfaced older language asserting MLS ownership of listing data. Rob argues that this fundamental change to broker data rights was poorly communicated, while Greg defends CRMLS, emphasizing the operational benefits and the long-standing nature of the clause. The two debate whether brokers were properly informed, what this means for data copyright, and if MLSs should have done more outreach when the change occurred.

Key Takeaways

• Origin of the Issue: CRMLS's update around two-factor authentication drew attention to older language asserting MLS ownership of listing data.

• Miscommunication Fallout: Many brokers—and even industry insiders—were unaware of this language, leading to confusion and criticism.

• Refkin's Role: Compass CEO Robert Reffkin's public posts sparked renewed scrutiny, prompting industrywide debate about transparency and data rights.

• Ownership vs. Protection: Rob questions whether MLSs need to claim ownership to protect data; Greg argues it benefits brokers by organizing and monetizing data more effectively.

• Governance Concerns: Rob challenges whether MLS boards can alter members' property rights without broader consent; Greg notes such changes are vetted by directors and attorneys.

• Communication Failure: Both agree MLSs must improve how they notify and educate brokers about major policy shifts.

• Potential Next Steps: Rob suggests bringing CRMLS's Ed Zorn and an affected broker on a future episode to clarify the rationale and implications.

Links

Inman Article

The Education of Mr. Reffkin

The MLS Is Taking a Fateful Step: Who Owns the Listing?

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Overview

Rob and Greg dive into the recent OpenAI Developers Conference announcement showcasing Zillow's integration into ChatGPT. They break down how this partnership blurs the lines between traditional search engines and AI "answer machines," debate whether MLS and IDX policies are ready for this shift, and discuss what it means for agents, brokers, and the future of data regulation in real estate.

Key Takeaways

• Zillow's new ChatGPT integration allows users to search listings directly within AI, sparking debate about IDX compliance.

• Rob compares the current AI moment to Google's early days of web indexing and the initial MLS "search engine exemption."

• Greg argues that ChatGPT's approach is more controlled than Google's, operating as an app within OpenAI's ecosystem.

• Discussion on how AI's ability to filter and evaluate listings (e.g., "best homes for big dogs") goes beyond traditional search behavior.

• Rob questions whether AI's use of listing data constitutes a derivative product under MLS rules.

• Both agree MLS and IDX policies are outdated and need rethinking to address AI integrations and data use.

• Agents who learn to leverage AI will gain a significant advantage over those who resist it.

• The episode closes on a central question: What's the justification for any restriction on real estate data in the age of AI?

Links

Sam Altman Interview

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The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player!

This special crossover episode brings together James and Keith from Real Estate Insiders Unfiltered with Rob and Greg from Industry Relations. The group dives into Compass' planned acquisition of Anywhere, debating what it means for brokerages, portals, and the future of private listings in residential real estate.

Key Takeaways

• Collaboration between Industry Relations and Real Estate Insiders Unfiltered.

• Compass' acquisition of Anywhere could reshape brokerage structure—if executed successfully.

• Breakage risk: agent retention is critical to Compass handling its debt load.

• Debate over Anywhere's role: "king" of brokerages or not? Zillow remains the dominant power.

• Zillow's potential responses range from lobbying to starting a brokerage/franchise.

• Private listings could trigger an "arms race," though consumer tolerance is debated.

• Rocket's acquisitions (Redfin, Mr. Cooper) highlight end-to-end strategies but raise adoption questions.

• Large-scale consolidation could increase influence over associations and MLSs.

Links

Rob's Article on 5 Things Zillow can do

Brian Boero's agent count article

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