On this episode I chat with Luke Babich, CEO of Clever Real Estate, a referral platform that matches buyers and sellers with agents. Clever has grown profitably, partly by integrating brokerage, title, and mortgage -- the Holy Grail is working.

Luke's diagnosis of real estate is simple: too many leads and too many agents. And because people only move once a decade, every customer is a new customer.

His answer is what he calls the ABCs: Agent Behavior Change. In his view, almost all the enterprise value in real estate right now is built on it, from Compass to eXp to Zillow, and it comes down to getting thousands of agents to do boring things consistently (something Clever is good at). While everyone else is taking friction out, he's adding it in on purpose, making it harder to become a lead.

His take on the Holy Grail itself surprised me. I've been asking whether consumers even want a one-stop shop, but Luke says that's the wrong question. The integration isn't for the consumer, it's for the professional.

We also cover cosmic miracle realtors, arming the rebel alliance, and why Luke still personally calls every customer who leaves a review of three stars or lower.

His takeaway after listening to the series: the Holy Grail isn't the shiny gold cup. It's the carpenter's cup, the least shiny object on the table.

I hit the road and spend a day with Rocket in Detroit. I want to walk the floors and see the biggest company chasing the Holy Grail for myself.

I went in skeptical. Redfin's posting a 50% attach rate since the acquisition and I didn't believe it — they were at 27% before. How? Turns out the magic is that the loan officers and the agents just like each other. Bundles work when the partners want them to.

But loan servicing is the real learning. I'll be honest, I thought servicing was boring. It’s just billing. But then I heard their pitch and saw the numbers. Building the relationship with customers, post-sale, is the key.

And in terms of the pitch of a one-stop-shop to consumers, nobody led with price. The number one thing people want is trust. From search to sale, Rocket has your back.

Check out the companion site for this podcast series at ⁠holygrail.mikedp.com⁠. It's a case file — the evidence I've gathered, the theories I'm testing, the questions I'm chasing, and a place to drop intel if you're seeing patterns from the field.

I begin by tracking the number of mortgage loan originators at the big players — which tells me who's really investing in the search for the Grail. Then I sit down with Ryan Dibble, one of the Flyhomes co-founders. Flyhomes is a power buyer that stumbled on the Holy Grail with mortgage attach rates around 80%, and then pivoted away from it. Turns out finding the Holy Grail and making the Holy Grail business work are two very different things. One insight: an object in motion stays in motion, meaning consumers will stay in an ecosystem unless there's a reason to leave. That changes how I’ve been thinking about the whole system.

Check out the companion site for this podcast series at ⁠holygrail.mikedp.com⁠. It's a case file — the evidence I've gathered, the theories I'm testing, the questions I'm chasing, and a place to drop intel if you're seeing patterns from the field.

My first stop: a conversation with Carey Armstrong, who has glimpsed the Grail! She's been at Zillow, built a mortgage company, and is one of the few people I know who's seen this from every angle. I needed someone I trust to help me map the whole landscape before I start digging into the specifics. What we found: the Holy Grail has always been about profit, not consumers. The executives pitching it have probably never processed a loan. And the real unlock might not be price or convenience — it might be confidence that your deal will actually close. I didn't expect that going in.

Check out the companion site for this podcast series at holygrail.mikedp.com. It's a case file — the evidence I've gathered, the theories I'm testing, the questions I'm chasing, and a place to drop intel if you're seeing patterns from the field.

I'm starting something new. This is the first episode of an investigative series — The Search for the Holy Grail of Real Estate. I'm going into the field, talking to the smartest people I can find, and piecing the evidence together as I go. In this episode, I lay out what the Holy Grail is, why companies keep chasing it, who's tried and failed, and why I think now is the time to figure out what's real and what's a myth. I don't have a destination in mind, just a direction. Come along for the ride!

Jun Choo, Chief Operating Officer of Zillow, and I discuss the launch that agents hated (and the lessons it taught about empathy), why Zillow Home Loans is really a trust business, how Zillow allocates resources, why the 10% revenue share with listing agents on Zillow Preview is such a big deal, why AI search is real but some of the predictions are hype, what Zillow Pro and the My Agent feature mean for the CRM play, and the fortune cookie advice he'd send his past self: you don't have to have all the answers.

Rory Golod, President of Growth at Compass International Holdings, and I discuss what it's like to go from 20 agents to 340,000 across 120 countries, why the Rocket/Redfin partnership is about shifting the balance of power back to agents, not holding grudges against former adversaries, what he would do if he found $20 million in a briefcase, pre-marketing as a pricing tool (and the Halloween costume analogy), why being on the front lines is how you actually learn, the addictive habit of focus, and what really motivates Robert Reffkin.

Guy Gal, CEO and co-founder of Side, and I discuss why he was one of Zillow Preview's launch partners, the pre-marketing and iBuying parallel, why pre-marketing is a solution searching for a problem, the real problem nobody in the industry wants to address (too many part-time agents), how corporations extract value and small businesses create it, what the craft beer revolution teaches us about brokerage consolidation, why the gravity of real estate always pulls back to local, and why this is the last time he'll ever talk about pre-marketing.

Rocket's Joe Rath and I unpack the recently announced Compass & Redfin partnership, that, among other things, will see Compass's exclusive listings appear on Redfin.

We cover the specifics of the deal and the "why" behind it all -- from what Rocket is trying to accomplish, to why Compass, and what happens when someone clicks the button.

Joe makes a strong claim -- Rocket is playing to win -- and then lays out their rationale for this deal and everything else they're doing in the real estate space.

Emily Girard, CEO of Unlock MLS and the Austin Board of Realtors, and I discuss morning dopamine hits, how I ruined her weekend, the Google listings fiasco, why she hates being reactionary, why an MLS exists, why no one can force private listings, the “what’s best for the consumer” fallacy, what needs to change in VOW and IDX feeds, and why she wishes the industry never launched the clear cooperation policy.