Infinite Loops

Tren Griffin, author of Charlie Munger: The Complete Investor and the 25iq blog, joins Jim O'Shaughnessy on Infinite Loops to talk about why writing a book is rarely about money, how AI is reshaping writing and publishing, why every author is really starting a business, how to build a book in public, the Charlie Munger lesson that changed his life during the dot-com boom, whether serious reading is really dying, and how to find a passion worth following.

Show Notes

Tren Griffin & Jim O'Shaughnessy

• Tren Griffin: Investor, writer, and author of the 25iq blog. Read 25iq

• Charlie Munger: The Complete Investor: Tren's book on how Munger approached investing and life. Charlie Munger: The Complete Investor

• Tren on X: Follow Tren on X

• Infinite Books: Jim's publishing company. Infinite Books

• Tren's earlier conversation: Welcome to the Tren-verse, Ep. 86. Watch

• Jim O'Shaughnessy: Host of Infinite Loops, founder and CEO of O'Shaughnessy Ventures, and author of the New York Times bestseller What Works on Wall Street. Follow Jim on X

• Full transcripts: Transcripts and highlights from every Infinite Loops conversation. OSV newsletter

Books & Ideas Mentioned

• The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel: Tren's example of how stories sell nonfiction. The Psychology of Money

• Runnin' Down a Dream by Bill Gurley: The book Tren recommends on turning passions into a career. Runnin' Down a Dream

• Kelly criterion: The bet-sizing formula Tren calls one of the hardest ideas to explain simply. Kelly criterion

• Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned by Kenneth Stanley and Joel Lehman: Jim's case for taking unexpected opportunities seriously. Kenneth Stanley

• 1,000 True Fans by Kevin Kelly: The essay behind Tren's advice to build a community of super fans. 1,000 True Fans

• Duncan Watts on social influence: Why bestsellers emerge from people copying what others buy. Duncan J. Watts

• Mimetic desire: René Girard's idea that we want what others want. Mimetic theory

• Influence by Robert Cialdini: The reciprocity principle behind Jim's warning about manipulation. Influence

• Reflexivity: George Soros's idea from The Alchemy of Finance, which shaped Tren's thinking on feedback loops. Reflexivity

• Benoit Mandelbrot: Whose The (Mis)Behavior of Markets Jim credits with shaping the models he built to pick stocks. Benoit Mandelbrot

• Gödel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter: Jim's example of a hard book that AI could open up to more readers. Gödel, Escher, Bach

• Clarke's third law: "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Clarke's three laws

• Cabo Wabo: Sammy Hagar's tequila, Tren's example of a founder bringing a ready-made community to a product. Cabo Wabo

• Menlo Ventures consumer AI survey (2025): About 3% of AI users pay, in line with Tren's point that most people use AI for free. Read the release

Spencer Greenberg, mathematician, founder of Clearer Thinking, and co-author of The 12 Levers, joins Jim O'Shaughnessy on Infinite Loops to talk about which self-help techniques hold up to evidence, why memory works like autocomplete, how exposure therapy cured his lifelong social anxiety, why the law of attraction can backfire, how to design hiring interviews that predict performance, and what his team found replicating new studies from top psychology journals.

Show Notes

Spencer Greenberg & Jim O'Shaughnessy

• Spencer Greenberg: Mathematician and entrepreneur, founder of ClearerThinking.org and Spark Wave, and host of the Clearer Thinking podcast. Clearer Thinking

• The 12 Levers: Spencer and Jeremy Stevenson's evidence-based toolkit for improving your life. The 12 Levers

• Clearer Thinking podcast: Spencer's interview show, where Jim has been a guest. Listen

• Transparent Replications: Spencer's project that randomly picks and re-runs new studies from top psychology journals. Transparent Replications

• Importance hacking: Spencer's essay on the problem his replications uncovered. Read the essay

• Jim O'Shaughnessy: Host of Infinite Loops, founder and CEO of O'Shaughnessy Ventures, and author of the New York Times bestseller What Works on Wall Street. Follow Jim on X

• Full transcripts: Transcripts and highlights from every Infinite Loops conversation. OSV newsletter

Books & Ideas Mentioned

• Reality tunnels: Robert Anton Wilson's idea that everyone perceives a different version of reality. Reality tunnel

• The Challenger memory study: Research showing how far people's memories of a major event drift over time. Flashbulb memory

• Spaced repetition: Spencer's recommended method for remembering what matters. Spaced repetition

• My Dinner with Andre: The film that shaped how Jim designed Infinite Loops. My Dinner with Andre

• Behavioral activation: The evidence-based depression technique Spencer describes. Behavioral activation

• Daniel Kahneman: Whose work for the Israeli military showed which interview methods actually predict performance. Daniel Kahneman

• Pre-mortem: The technique of imagining a plan has failed and working out why. Pre-mortem

• Replication crisis: The finding that many published psychology results don't hold up when re-run. Replication crisis

• John Sarno: The NYU physician whose work on the mind's role in chronic pain Jim credits with curing his frozen neck. John E. Sarno

• Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert: Jim's reference on how emotions show up physically in the body. Candace Pert

• Mirror box therapy: The phantom limb treatment Spencer uses to show the brain can reinterpret a pain signal. Mirror box

Pre-order No One's Coming to Save You today: https://infinitebooks.com/products/no-ones-coming-to-save-you

David Rhoiney was five when his father walked out, forcing David to become the "man of the house."

Compton, Oakland, Long Beach: no matter where they turned, fear and hunger waited. Long nights in the homeless shelter. Drive-by shootings. Strangers in overalls dragging his mother away. As his world collapsed, David lost hope. No one was coming to save him.

But he could save himself.

When basketball threw him a lifeline, David grabbed it. So began an unlikely journey, one that carried him from living in a Volkswagen Jetta onto the courts of Division I, through the halls of the Naval Academy, into the corridors of national intelligence, and under the watchtowers of Guantánamo Bay. At last, scalpel in hand, David reached the operating room, where he could become the man his family needed.

Ed William, a former lawyer, spent several days interviewing David and spoke to dozens of people from his life. The result is Ed's first book, No One's Coming to Save You: The Escape of David Rhoiney, out from Infinite Books on 8 December and now available for pre-order: https://infinitebooks.com/products/no-ones-coming-to-save-you

"A powerful and deeply moving account of a boy forced to grow up too soon and the man he fought to become."

—Rob Henderson, bestselling author of Troubled

Ed joins Jim to discuss:

• The time David was forced to fight a schoolyard bully in front of his family.

• David's unusual experience of the Rodney King riots.

• The note David wrote to God every night.

• The English teacher who changed David's life in one hour.

• The prep school coach who cancelled David's credit cards.

• How a five-foot-three kid ended up playing Division I basketball.

• David as a role model for young men.

• The guilt underpinning David's success.

• The single word that describes David.

• Why Ed's interview plan fell apart in the first 5 minutes.

• Why Ed was inspired by Into the Wild and Raiders of the Lost Ark.

• How Ed captured David's voice.

• Much more!

Show Notes

Ed William & Jim O'Shaughnessy

• Ed William: Writer, editor, former lawyer and author of No One's Coming to Save You. Read Rough Cuts

• The book: No One's Coming to Save You: The Escape of David Rhoiney, out December 8, 2026. Pre-order

• Infinite Books: The publishing imprint behind the book. Infinite Books

• Jim O'Shaughnessy: Host of Infinite Loops, founder and CEO of O'Shaughnessy Ventures, and author of the New York Times bestseller What Works on Wall Street. Follow Jim on X

• Full transcripts: Transcripts and highlights from every Infinite Loops conversation. OSV newsletter

Books, Films & Ideas Mentioned

• Into the Wild: The film Ed compares to the Houston chapter, where David almost stops to rest. Into the Wild

• Raiders of the Lost Ark: Spielberg's "no boring bits" approach that set the book's pace. Raiders of the Lost Ark

• Mad Max: Fury Road: Ed's model for a story that never stops moving. Mad Max: Fury Road

• The Pursuit of Happyness and Good Will Hunting: The stories Ed sees as the book's closest film parallels. The Pursuit of Happyness / Good Will Hunting

• What Works on Wall Street: Jim's book, which David challenged him on in their first conversations. What Works on Wall Street

• Behaviorism: The mid-century "give me a baby and I'll make it anything" school Jim cites in the nature-versus-nurture debate. Behaviorism

Emma Camp, senior newsletter editor at The Wall Street Journal's Free Expression, joins Jim O'Shaughnessy on Infinite Loops to talk about why Gen Z is dating less and spending more time alone, how therapy culture and helicopter parenting can turn growing pains into permanent labels, why the fix for the housing shortage is more housing, and why she invites everyone she's met to every party. She also previews her forthcoming essay collection on Gen Z and risk aversion.

Show Notes

Emma Camp & Jim O'Shaughnessy

• Emma Camp: Senior newsletter editor at Free Expression, The Wall Street Journal's opinion newsletter, and former Reason magazine editor. Read Free Expression

• Emma's breakout essay: Her reflection on the 2022 New York Times op-ed that started her career. After My Big Break

• Jim O'Shaughnessy: Host of Infinite Loops, founder and CEO of O'Shaughnessy Ventures, and author of the New York Times bestseller What Works on Wall Street. Follow Jim on X

• Full transcripts: Transcripts and highlights from every Infinite Loops conversation. OSV newsletter

Books & Ideas Mentioned

• The Grim Old Days by Chelsea Follett: Emma's reference for how hard life was for the average person before modern markets. Chelsea Follett

• The Genius of the Beast by Howard Bloom: Jim's reference for what capitalism achieved that earlier systems couldn't. The Genius of the Beast

• Jefferson Literary and Debating Society: The University of Virginia society where Emma threw a party every Friday. Jefferson Society

• Partiful: The app Emma uses to invite everyone to every party. Partiful

• Sally Rooney: The novelist Emma writes about in her essays on modern relationships. Sally Rooney

• Attachment theory: Emma's frame for why a secure marriage lets her take more social risks. Attachment theory

• NAR 2025 Profile of Home Buyers and Sellers: The data on first-time buyers reaching a record median age of 40. Coverage

Julie Fredrickson, Managing Partner of Chaotic Capital, rejoins Jim O'Shaughnessy on Infinite Loops to talk about Montana's Right to Compute Act, why verified human data may become one of the most valuable assets online, what nuclear power and the encryption wars teach about regulating AI, why chatbots keep recommending the same sunscreen, and what 2,089 days of daily public writing taught her about being wrong. It is her second Infinite Loops conversation, three years after Episode 181.

Show Notes

Julie Fredrickson & Jim O'Shaughnessy

• Julie Fredrickson: Managing Partner of Chaotic Capital, an early-stage venture fund, and a former founder in e-commerce and beauty. Chaotic Capital

• Julie on X: Julie's preferred way to be reached. Follow Julie on X

• Julie's daily writing: More than 2,000 consecutive days of public writing, started January 1, 2021. Read Julie's blog

• Jim O'Shaughnessy: Host of Infinite Loops, founder and CEO of O'Shaughnessy Ventures, and author of the New York Times bestseller What Works on Wall Street. Follow Jim on X

• Full transcripts: Transcripts and highlights from every Infinite Loops conversation. OSV newsletter

Julie's Work & Projects

• Montana's Right to Compute Act: The first state law protecting people's right to own and use computers and AI tools, which Julie advocated for. Read the Right to Compute Act

• Valar Atomics: The small modular reactor company founded by Isaiah Taylor, where Julie invested. Valar Atomics

• Julie's first Infinite Loops episode: Episode 181, "Circumstances change. Humanity doesn't. Plan accordingly." Watch Episode 181

Books & Ideas Mentioned

• The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch: Jim's reference for why no one in 1900 could have predicted the internet. The Beginning of Infinity

• Carlota Perez: The economist whose work on technology booms and build-outs shapes Julie's view that AI is still in its invention phase. Carlota Perez

• Rainbows End by Vernor Vinge: The novel Julie cites for a future where people earn a living doing small tasks only humans can do. Rainbows End

• Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson: Julie's reference for how ideas spread like a virus through programmers. Snow Crash

• Fall; or, Dodge in Hell by Neal Stephenson: The novel Julie describes, in which Americans mourn victims of a nuclear attack that never happened. Fall; or, Dodge in Hell

• The WEIRDest People in the World by Joseph Henrich: Jim's reference on how long cultures take to adapt to new technology. The WEIRDest People in the World

• Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell: Jim's starting point for cognitive security and invented history. Nineteen Eighty-Four

• From Googlebot to GPTBot: Cloudflare's report on the rise in AI crawler traffic that Julie cites. Cloudflare report

• The Vesuvius Challenge: The project reading the Herculaneum scrolls, subject of a documentary from Infinite Films. Vesuvius Challenge

• Agrippa's trilemma: Jim's reference for why chasing a claim to its source often ends in sand. Agrippa's trilemma

Derek Sivers, author, entrepreneur, TED speaker, and founder of CD Baby, joins Jim O'Shaughnessy on Infinite Loops to talk about parenting a teenager who is ready to leave home, why he moves countries on purpose and plans to live in Bangalore and Shanghai next, the certainty slider, and how AI can make you less dependent on big tech, not more. It is his first podcast after more than a year of saying no to every request.

Show Notes

Derek Sivers & Jim O'Shaughnessy

• Derek Sivers: Author, entrepreneur, and TED speaker, and founder of CD Baby, once the largest seller of independent music online. Derek's website

• Derek on X: Where Derek shares his writing. Follow Derek on X

• Derek's TED talks: Including "How to Start a Movement," his most popular talk. Watch Derek's talks

• Jim O'Shaughnessy: Host of Infinite Loops, founder and CEO of O'Shaughnessy Ventures, and author of the New York Times bestseller What Works on Wall Street. Follow Jim on X

• Full transcripts: Transcripts and highlights from every Infinite Loops conversation. OSV newsletter

Derek's Books & Projects

• Useful Not True: Derek's book on skepticism and choosing beliefs because they are useful, not because they are true. Useful Not True

• How to Live: 27 conflicting answers on how to live, which Derek calls his masterpiece. How to Live

• Hell Yeah or No: Simple mental models for deciding what's worth doing. Hell Yeah or No

• Anything You Want: Derek's bestselling book of 40 lessons from starting, building, and selling CD Baby. Anything You Want

• Tech Independence: Step-by-step instructions and a setup script for running your own server and email instead of depending on big tech. Tech Independence

Books & Ideas Mentioned

• Personal Development for Smart People by Steve Pavlina: The book whose idea about seeking surprise sent Derek around the world. Derek's notes

• China's World View by David Daokui Li: Derek's pick for understanding the Chinese government's point of view. Derek's notes

• Maverick by Ricardo Semler: The book behind Derek's short-lived profit-sharing plan at CD Baby. Maverick

• Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned by Kenneth O. Stanley and Joel Lehman: Jim's reference on why new vantage points change where you want to go. Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned

• The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch: The book Jim calls a definitive look at how he sees the world. The Beginning of Infinity

• Nothing & Everything by Val N. Tine: The book on nihilism Derek recommends, with his advice to read only the first half. Derek's notes

Dr. Brent Seales, computer scientist at the University of Kentucky and co-founder of the Vesuvius Challenge, joins guest host Nick Tawil on Infinite Loops to explain how synchrotron X-rays and machine learning are making unopenable ancient scrolls readable, and why the work has now shifted from engineering to reading. This summer in Naples, his team presented results from three sealed Herculaneum scrolls, including the first read end to end.

Show Notes

• Dr. Brent Seales: Stanley and Karen Pigman Chair of Heritage Science at the University of Kentucky and co-founder of the Vesuvius Challenge. Brent Seales at the University of Kentucky

• Vesuvius Challenge: The open competition Brent co-founded with Nat Friedman and Daniel Gross to read the carbonized Herculaneum scrolls. Vesuvius Challenge

• The June 2026 breakthrough: The announcement in Naples of new texts, titles, and authors recovered from the scrolls. The day the Herculaneum scrolls began speaking again

• Nick Tawil: Guest host and head of Infinite Films. Connect with Nick

• The Herculaneum library: Roughly 1,800 scrolls carbonized by Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD, the only library from antiquity that survived. Vesuvius Challenge: the scrolls

• Philodemus, On Gods, Book 8: A title and author read from a sealed scroll, establishing that the work ran to at least eight books. CNN on the discovery

• The En-Gedi scroll: The burned Torah scroll Brent's team read without opening, containing one of the oldest known copies of the first two chapters of Leviticus in the canonical Masoretic text. Vesuvius Challenge on En-Gedi

• The $1 million prize: The open competition to fully unroll and read one of the remaining sealed scrolls. Current prizes

• The Vesuvius Challenge: The upcoming documentary from Infinite Films and Scott Free, in partnership with Calliope Pictures, narrated by Guy Pearce. Deadline announcement

• Secrets of the Dead: The Herculaneum Scrolls: The PBS episode following Brent inside the Villa of the Papyri. Watch on PBS

• Cost of Glory: The Roman history podcast Brent and Nick reference while discussing what might still be buried. Cost of Glory

• Dead Poets Society: The source of "carpe diem," one of the two ideas Brent would give the world. Dead Poets Society

Ryan Resch, former Assistant General Manager and VP of Basketball Operations for the Phoenix Suns, joins guest host Jimmy Soni on Infinite Loops to explore what happens to competitive advantage when every team has the same data, and why the real edge comes from the questions you ask of it. Ryan traces his path from a cold email to Baylor coach Scott Drew to nearly a decade in the Suns front office and his current work leading data and AI in private equity.

Show Notes

• Ryan Resch on LinkedIn: Former Suns Assistant GM and VP of Basketball Operations, now leading data and AI at 1949 Capital Partners. Connect with Ryan

• Beyond the Dashboard: Ryan's Harvard Business School interview with Boris Groysberg on optical tracking, dashboards, and AI. Read the interview

• Shore Capital Partners: The private equity firm founded by Justin Ishbia, where Ryan helped roll out AI tools. Shore Capital Partners

• Jimmy Soni on X: Guest host, bestselling author, and editor-in-chief of Infinite Books. Connect with Jimmy

• James Jones: The 2020-21 NBA Executive of the Year, whose Suns rebuild started with raising the floor. Executive of the Year

• Scott Drew: The Baylor head coach who answered Ryan's cold email and later had him build lineup data. Scott Drew at Baylor

• SportVU: The camera system that brought optical tracking to every NBA arena in 2013-14. SportVU and the NBA

• Second Spectrum: The machine learning platform that turned tracking data into tagged plays and dashboards teams across the league use. Second Spectrum and the NBA

• Hawk-Eye: Sony's 3D tracking system, used across the NBA since 2023-24. Hawk-Eye and the NBA

• Moneyball by Michael Lewis: The 2003 book on the Oakland A's that frames how analytics moved from baseball into basketball. Moneyball

• Hyperion by Dan Simmons: The first book in the sci-fi series Ryan is reading, and a window into how earlier writers imagined AI. Hyperion

• The Founders by Jimmy Soni: Jimmy's history of PayPal and Silicon Valley, which Ryan handed out at the Suns. The Founders

• TBPN and Dwarkesh Podcast: Two of the tech shows Ryan wishes he had more hours for. TBPN | Dwarkesh Podcast

• Claude Code and Codex: The coding agents Ryan uses in a workspace built for agents to read. Claude Code | Codex

Brian Chau, founder of Effort News, joins Infinite Loops to explore how AI could fundamentally reshape investigative journalism—not by writing articles, but by searching, analyzing, and connecting millions of legal, financial, and government records that humans could never examine manually. Show Notes

• Effort News — Brian Chau's document-led investigative journalism publication, using AI to search and analyze large datasets while keeping the reporting and final writing human-reviewed. Effort News
• About Effort News — More on Brian's approach to AI-assisted investigative reporting and the publication's editorial principles. About Effort News
• Effort's Null Results — Investigations where Effort searched the available evidence but found no newsworthy result. Null Results
• Brian Chau on X — @brianchau57. Follow Brian on X

• The $1.2B Refugee Services Program that Funds Pro-Asylum Religious Groups — Effort's investigation into federal refugee-resettlement grants and the organizations receiving them. Read the investigation
• The 19th-Century Family Fortunes Funding Degrowth — Effort's investigation tracing funding for Partners for a New Economy through donor-side disclosures and the Swiss Philanthropy Foundation. Read the investigation
• Partners for a New Economy (P4NE) — The philanthropic fund discussed in Brian's explanation of tracing obscured donor funding. P4NE
• Swiss Philanthropy Foundation — The organization that hosts P4NE's pooled philanthropic fund. Swiss Philanthropy Foundation on P4NE
• How to Go Viral on the New X Algorithm — Effort's analysis of X's open-source recommendation algorithm, which Jim references near the end of the conversation. Read the investigation
• Freedom Fuel Network — Brian discusses Effort's then-upcoming investigation into the mysterious network of discounted gas stations in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Effort has since published its findings, Who Supplies Freedom Fuel?, on its site. Effort News

• Vesuvius Challenge — The project using machine learning, computer vision, and advanced scanning to read carbonized scrolls from Herculaneum without physically opening them. Vesuvius Challenge
• The Camp of the Saints — Jean Raspail — The 1973 novel Brian and Jim discuss while talking about how AI-generated writing has changed the way readers perceive older literary styles. The Camp of the Saints
• Influence — Robert Cialdini — Cialdini's work on persuasion, referenced during the discussion of why large language models can be effective persuaders. Influence: Science and Practice
• What the Tortoise Said to Achilles — Lewis Carroll — Carroll's 1895 dialogue about logic and infinite regress, discussed alongside Agrippa's trilemma. Read the essay
• On Liberty — John Stuart Mill — Mill's defense of liberty and free expression, which Brian critiques during the episode's discussion of classical liberalism, consensus, and free speech. Read On Liberty

We're digging out some of our favorite conversations from the archive. This one is from January 2025, with Julian Gough. Enjoy. Julian Gough sums up his career as follows: "I just sit in my room and write."

Well, I think being an acclaimed children's author, novelist, stage playwright, poet and top-ten Irish musician is a little more impressive than he's letting on…

Oh, and I didn't even mention that he wrote the ending to the computer game Minecraft!

His current project, The Egg and The Rock, puts all of this to shame. This book, which Julian is writing in public on Substack, seeks to do no less than redescribe the universe, arguing that is not some random, dead, purposeless sack of chemicals, but instead a living, evolving organism.

Julian joins me to discuss why the arc of human evolution bends towards man-made black holes, the hidden catastrophe at the heart of materialist science, the strange life of subterranean ice aliens, and MUCH more!

This was such an interesting conversation - I can't wait for you to hear it. For the full transcript, episode takeaways, and bucketloads of other goodies designed to make you go, "Hmm, that's interesting!", check out our Substack.

Important Links:

• Julian's Website
• The Egg and The Rock
• Julian's Twitter

Show Notes:

• "I just sit in my room and write"
• Why write a book in public?
• Materialism & science's hidden catastrophe
• "The scientific method is in conflict with human nature"
• The faulty assumption at the heart of cosmology
• Big bangs, supermassive black holes & Darwinian evolution: A ~30 minute masterclass in cosmological natural selection
• "I'm predicting very, very large amounts of life in this universe"
• The strange life of subterranean ice aliens
• Could we spot man-made black holes?
• Bringing consciousness into physics
• Pulling back the curtain
• Julian as World Emperor
• MORE!

Books & Articles Mentioned:

• The New Inquisition: Irrational Rationalism and the Citadel of Science; by Robert Anton Wilson
• Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge; by Paul Feyerabend
• What the Tortoise Said to Achilles; by Lewis Carroll
• The Life of the Cosmos; by Lee Smolin
• What Is Life? The Physical Aspect of the Living Cell; by Erwin Schrödinger
• Isis Unveiled: A Master-Key to the Mysteries of Ancient and Modern Science and Theology; by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky
• The Bhagavad Gita
• Did the Universe evolve?; by Lee Smolin
• The Great Filter - Are We Almost Past It?; by Robin Hanson