March 26, 2025

James Fadiman and Jordan Gruber: Psychedelics Legalization Will Continue No Matter Who Is President

58 minutes

You've probably heard about microdosing, which involves taking a small, "sub-perceptual" dose of psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin on a regular basis to ward off depression, anxiety, and chronic pain—or to optimize focus and boost energy.

Today's guests are James Fadiman and Jordan Gruber, authors of the new book Microdosing for Health, Healing, and Enhanced Performance. Fadiman, a Stanford-trained research psychologist who has been working with psychedelics since the early 1960s, popularized the concept of microdosing over a decade ago. They talk with Reason's Nick Gillespie about the mechanics of and theory behind microdosing, its promise and limits, and how it fits into the larger psychedelic renaissance that has been flowering for most of the 21st century. And they discuss the prospects for legalization and cultural normalization of psychedelics under the Trump administration.

1:19 — New book: Microdosing for Health, Healing, and Enhanced Performance

5:12 — How Fadiman discovered microdosing

8:10 — How Gruber began microdosing

8:57 — Microdosing is similar to a vitamin protocol

11:17 — MDMA, ketamine, and cannabis work differently

12:50 — Microdosing for depression

16:02 — Other conditions microdosing could help alleviate

19:09 — Is microdosing for life?

21:17 — How to quantify the efficacy of microdosing

30:14 — Psychedelics and drug law

37:30 — Psychedelic-assisted therapy

39:40 — Psychedelics and their benefits are nonideological

46:15 — Fadiman and Gruber's 2020 book: Your Symphony of Selves

53:45 — Drug legalization under Donald Trump

Today's sponsor:

The Reason Speakeasy. The Reason Speakeasy is a monthly, unscripted conversation in New York City with outspoken defenders of free thinking and heterodoxy in an age of intellectual conformity and groupthink. It doubles as a live taping of The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie podcast. The next one takes place on Tuesday, April 8, with Jeffrey Singer, who recently authored Your Body, Your Health Care. Go here to buy tickets and go here to sign up for Reason's NYC Events newsletter.