In 1776 Thomas Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence.

This kick-started the movement against British rule and put the foundations in place for democracy in what became the United States of America.

But he was a man of contradictions.

He argued passionately against slavery but was a slave-owner. He had a relationship with an enslaved woman, Sally Hemings which may have started in France when she was just 14.

He became the third President of the United States, and he loved philosophy, nature and wine.

Jimmy Wales is the founder of Wikipedia. He first-learned of Jefferson and the founding fathers when he was in school. He fell in love with Encyclopaedias when his Mother bought a set from a travelling salesman.

Jimmy joins Matthew Parris to explain his fascination with Jefferson's political principles and intrigued by his many contradictions.

They’re joined by guest expert: Kathleen Burk, Professor Emerita of Modern and Contemporary History at University College London

Together they discuss Jefferson's political legacy and how his attitudes to slavery are impacting on how he's seen today.

Produced for BBC Audio Bristol by Toby Field.

First broadcast on BBC Radio 4 in January 2024.