February 26, 2025

John McWhorter: Is 'Wokeness' Finally Dead?

49 minutes

Today's guest is Columbia University linguist and New York Times columnist John McWhorter. In 2021, he published Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America, which argued that politically correct "antiracism" was not only a new religion but a dangerous form of illiberalism that quashed free expression, individual liberty, and social progress.

McWhorter talks with Reason's Nick Gillespie about how far we've come since 2021—and whether we are entering a new era of open debate and cultural possibilities. They also discuss the apparent end of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs, McWhorter's own experience with affirmative action over his decades in academia, and his forthcoming book Pronoun Trouble: The Story of Us in Seven Little Words, which comes out in April.

0:00—Introduction

1:10—The "woke racism" recession

7:01—The arts and academia are still "woke"

11:30—Donald Trump's attacks on DEI

16:40—Individuals vs. groups

18:24—The emotional cost of affirmative action

20:05—The immaturity of the "woke right"

21:46—McWhorter's political identity

27:20—Attitude shifts about race and class

32:27—TV got better, movies got worse

36:10—McWhorter's new book, Pronoun Trouble

41:51—They is a pretty good gender-neutral pronoun

44:57—Mixing high and low culture

Previous appearances:

"John McWhorter: How To Defeat 'Woke Racism,'" November 17, 2021

"John McWhorter: 'The Idea That America Is All About Despising Black People? That's Fantasy,'" May 5, 2021

"John McWhorter: America Has Never Been Less Racist," April 11, 2019

Today's sponsor:

The Reason Speakeasy. The Reason Speakeasy is a monthly, unscripted conversation in New York City with outspoken defenders of free thinking and heterodoxy in an age of intellectual conformity and groupthink. It doubles as a live taping of The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie podcast. Go here to buy tickets and go here to sign up for Reason's NYC Events newsletter.