Ep. 194 (Part 2 of 2) | Frank Ostaseski, Zen hospice pioneer, founder of the Metta Institute, and author of The Five Invitations, speaks with us about the profound wisdom and potential for transformation that is unleashed in the process of dying. “Suppose we imagine death as an unprecedented opportunity for transformation, he says, adding, “so why wait until we are dying?” In attending over a thousand people in hospice, Frank has often seen them experience a real sense of discovery in the dying process; there is a time of acceptance, a time of letting go, and then a deeper state of surrendering to something larger. The walls that prop up the self start tumbling down, Frank explains, and a larger connection emerges that is always there.

Frank would like to see the process of dying brought out of the closet—shared about, learned from, and not reduced to a medical event. It’s important to meet death with don’t-know mind and trust the dying process to teach each of us what we need to know, he explains. And some of what we can do right now to open ourselves to the wisdom of death is pay attention to how we end things, and to how we love. This far reaching discussion delves gently into the divine mystery of death and dying, touching on radical acceptance, transcending self, don’t-know mind, everyday compassion and boundless compassion, grief as an expression of love, and creating rituals to mark this passage and all passages. We are left feeling unexpectedly comforted and liberated at the same time. Recorded December 5, 2024.

“Grief is a way we continue to love someone… a natural response to the experience of love.”

Topics & Time Stamps – Part 2

1. What qualities do people need to be with the dying? (00:27)
2. Boundless compassion needs everyday compassion (02:09)
3. Don’t wait to tell people that you love them (03:55)
4. Grief is a way we continue to love someone, a natural response to the experience of love (06:06)
5. There are subtler experiences after surrender: tracking consciousness as the brain stops (06:38)
6. Gratefulness and a deep sense of belonging to something larger (09:52)
7. Cultivating don’t know mind; meeting dying with don’t know mind (12:47)
8. Terminal lucidity (17:49)
9. Practices we can do now: how do we meet endings? (19:54)
10. Impermanence is not later; it’s in this very moment (22:35)
11. Cultural changes Frank would like to see (26:15)
12. Proximate karma (30:00)
13. Better drugs than sedation: psychedelics could help us meet the profundity of the experience (30:37)
14. Bathing the body after death: a wonderful tradition that can fundamentally shift our relation with death (33:45)

Resources & References – Part 2

1. Frank Ostaseski’s website: https://frankostaseski.com/
2. Frank Ostaseski, The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully
3. Metta Institute, founded by Frank Ostaseski, to provide innovative programs and trainings that foster mindful & compassionate end-of-life care
4. Frank Ostaseski, founding director of the San Francisco Zen Hospice Project (now Zen Caregiving Project)
5. Shunryu Suzuki, Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind
6. Elizabeth Kübler-Ross, On Death and Dying
7. Death Over Dinner.org: Let’s have dinner and talk about death
8. Ram Dass, Frank Ostaseski, Joan Halifax, Stages of the Journey (audiobook)
9. Bill Moyers PBS series, On Our Own Terms: Moyers on Dying

---

Frank Ostaseski is an internationally respected Buddhist teacher, visionary co-founder of the Zen Hospice Project, and founder of the Metta Institute. He has lectured at Harvard Medical School, the Mayo Clinic, leading corporations like Google and Apple Inc., and teaches at major spiritual centers around the globe. Frank is the 2018 recipient of the prestigious Humanities Award from the American Academy of Hospice and Palliative Medicine.

Frank has accompanied over 1,000 people through the dying process and trained thousands of healthcare clinicians and family caregivers around the world. His groundbreaking work has been featured on the Bill Moyers PBS series On Our Own Terms, highlighted on The Oprah Winfrey Show, and honored by H.H. the Dalai Lama. He is the author of The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully.

---

Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell