Nesrine Changuel helped build Spotify, Google Chrome, and Google Meet. Her work has helped her discover the importance of emotional connection in building successful products. At Google, she served as a dedicated “delight PM,” a role specifically focused on making products more delightful. She recently published Product Delight, a book that provides a practical framework for creating products that serve both functional and emotional needs. Based in Paris, she now coaches founders and CPOs on implementing delight strategies in their organizations.

What you’ll learn:

1. Why delight is a business strategy, not just “sprinkling confetti” on top of functionality

2. How to identify emotional motivators that drive product retention

3. The 50-40-10 rule for balancing delight in your roadmap

4. The 4-step delight model

5. The origin story of Spotify’s Discover Weekly

6. Why B2B products need delight just as much as B2C products

7. How to get buy-in from skeptical leaders who think delight is a luxury

—

Brought to you by:

DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers: https://getdx.com/lenny

Jira Product Discovery—Confidence to build the right thing: https://atlassian.com/lenny

LucidLink—Real-time cloud storage for teams: https://www.lucidlink.com/lenny

—

Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-4-step-framework-for-building-delightful-products

—

My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/174199489/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

—

Where to find Nesrine Changuel:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nesrinechanguel/

• Newsletter: https://nesrinechanguel.substack.com/

• Website: https://nesrine-changuel.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Nesrine and product delight

(04:56) Why delight matters

(09:17) What makes a feature “delightful”

(12:29) The three pillars of delight

(13:03) Pillar 1: Removing friction (Uber refund example)

(15:07) Pillar 2: Anticipating needs (Revolut eSIM example)

(17:21) Pillar 3: Exceeding expectations (Edge coupon example)

(18:35) The “confetti effect” and when it actually works

(22:02) B2B vs. B2C: Why all products need emotional connection

(29:52) The Delight Model: A 4-step framework

(30:57) Step 1: Identifying user motivators (functional and emotional)

(33:55) Step 2: Converting motivators into product opportunities

(34:46) Step 3: Identifying solutions with the delight grid

(36:46) Step 4: Validating ideas with the delight checklist

(40:22) The Delight Model summarized

(42:18) The importance of familiarity (Spotify Discover Weekly story)

(45:21) Real examples: Chrome’s tab management solution

(51:32) Google Meet’s solution for “Zoom fatigue”

(55:02) Getting buy-in from skeptical leaders

(59:39) Prioritizing delight: The 50-40-10 rule

(1:02:41) Creating a culture of delight in your organization

(1:06:45) The habituation effect

(1:08:15) When delight goes wrong: Apple reactions example

(1:10:21) How delight motivates product teams

(1:12:24) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

Referenced:

• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/

• Linear: https://linear.app/

• How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Asana: https://asana.com/

• Monday: https://monday.com/

• The Product Delight Model: https://nesrinechanguel.substack.com/p/the-product-delight-model

• Revolut: https://www.revolut.com/

• How Revolut trains world-class product managers: The “local CEO” model, raw intellect over experience, and a cultural obsession with building wow products | Dmitry Zlokazov (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-revolut-trains-world-class-product-managers

• Microsoft Cashback: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge/features/shopping-cashback

• Superhuman’s secret to success: Ignoring most customer feedback, manually onboarding every new user, obsessing over every detail, and positioning around a single attribute: speed | Rahul Vohra (CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/superhumans-secret-to-success-rahul-vohra

• Brian Chesky’s secret mentor who died 9 times, started the Burning Man board, and built the world’s first midlife wisdom school | Chip Conley (founder of MEA): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/chip-conley

• Workday: https://www.workday.com/

• SAP: https://www.sap.com/

• ServiceNow: https://www.servicenow.com/

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• GitHub: https://github.com/

• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/

• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/

• Data Superheroes: https://www.snowflake.com/en/data-superheroes/

• Google Meet: https://meet.google.com/

• Andy Nesling on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andynesling/

• Matic: https://maticrobots.com/

• Diego Sanchez’s (Senior Product Manager at Buffer) post on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7365014292091346945/

• Miro: https://miro.com/

• Arc browser: https://arc.net/

• Competing with giants: An inside look at how The Browser Company builds product | Josh Miller (CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/competing-with-giants-an-inside-look

• Migros Supermarket: https://www.migros.ch/

• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell

• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika

• Linear’s secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu

• Suno: https://suno.com

• Snapchat: https://www.snapchat.com/

• Use Reactions, Presenter Overlay, and other effects when videoconferencing on Mac: https://support.apple.com/en-us/105117

• Dr. Lipp: https://drlipp.com/

• How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-be-the-best-coach-to-product

• The Great American Baking Show: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21822674/

• Le Meilleur Pâtissier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Meilleur_P%C3%A2tissier

• The Upside on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.3cb8500f-31af-9f4f-5dec-701e086d58e8

• The Intouchables: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1675434/

• Yoyo stroller: https://www.stokke.com/USA/en-us/category/strollers/yoyo-strollers

• UppaBaby strollers: https://uppababy.com/strollers/

—

Recommended books:

• Product Delight: How to Make Your Product Stand Out with Emotional Connection: https://www.amazon.com/Product-Delight-Stand-Emotional-Connection-ebook/dp/B0FGZ93D9Y/

• Factfulness: Ten Reasons We’re Wrong About the World—and Why Things Are Better Than You Think: https://www.amazon.com/Factfulness-Reasons-World-Things-Better/dp/1250107814

• STRONG Product Communities: The Essential Guide to Product Communities of Practice: https://www.amazon.com/STRONG-Product-Communities-Essential-Practice/dp/3982235189/r

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Hamel Husain and Shreya Shankar teach the world’s most popular course on AI evals and have trained over 2,000 PMs and engineers (including many teams at OpenAI and Anthropic). In this conversation, they demystify the process of developing effective evals, walk through real examples, and share practical techniques that’ll help you improve your AI product.

What you’ll learn:

1. WTF evals are

2. Why they’ve become the most important new skill for AI product builders

3. A step-by-step walkthrough of how to create an effective eval

4. A deep dive into error analysis, open coding, and axial coding

5. Code-based evals vs. LLM-as-judge

6. The most common pitfalls and how to avoid them

7. Practical tips for implementing evals with minimal time investment (30 minutes per week after initial setup)

8. Insight into the debate between “vibes” and systematic evals

—

Brought to you by:

Fin—The #1 AI agent for customer service

Dscout—The UX platform to capture insights at every stage: from ideation to production

Mercury—The art of simplified finances

—

Where to find Shreya Shankar

• X: https://x.com/sh_reya

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shrshnk/

• Website: https://www.sh-reya.com/

• Maven course: https://bit.ly/4myp27m

—

Where to find Hamel Husain

• X: https://x.com/HamelHusain

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamelhusain/

• Website: https://hamel.dev/

• Maven course: https://bit.ly/4myp27m

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Hamel and Shreya

(04:57) What are evals?

(09:56) Demo: Examining real traces from a property management AI assistant

(16:51) Writing notes on errors

(23:54) Why LLMs can’t replace humans in the initial error analysis

(25:16) The concept of a “benevolent dictator” in the eval process

(28:07) Theoretical saturation: when to stop

(31:39) Using axial codes to help categorize and synthesize error notes

(44:39) The results

(46:06) Building an LLM-as-judge to evaluate specific failure modes

(48:31) The difference between code-based evals and LLM-as-judge

(52:10) Example: LLM-as-judge

(54:45) Testing your LLM judge against human judgment

(01:00:51) Why evals are the new PRDs for AI products

(01:05:09) How many evals you actually need

(01:07:41) What comes after evals

(01:09:57) The great evals debate

(1:15:15) Why dogfooding isn’t enough for most AI products

(01:18:23) OpenAI’s Statsig acquisition

(1:23:02) The Claude Code controversy and the importance of context

(01:24:13) Common misconceptions around evals

(1:22:28) Tips and tricks for implementing evals effectively

(1:30:37) The time investment

(1:33:38) Overview of their comprehensive evals course

(1:37:57) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

LLM Log Open Codes Analysis Prompt:

Please analyze the following CSV file. There is a metadata field which has an nested field called z_note that contains open codes for analysis of LLM logs that we are conducting. Please extract all of the different open codes. From the _note field, propose 5-6 categories that we can create axial codes from.

—

Referenced:

• Building eval systems that improve your AI product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-eval-systems-that-improve

• Mercor: https://mercor.com/

• Brendan Foody on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendan-foody-2995ab10b

• Nurture Boss: https://nurtureboss.io/

• Braintrust: https://www.braintrust.dev/

• Andrew Ng on X: https://x.com/andrewyng

• Carrying Out Error Analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoAxZsdw_3w

• Julius AI: https://julius.ai/

• Brendan Foody on X—“evals are the new PRDs”: https://x.com/BrendanFoody/status/1939764763485171948

• Who Validates the Validators? Aligning LLM-Assisted Evaluation of LLM Outputs with Human Preferences: https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3654777.3676450

• Lenny’s post on X about evals: https://x.com/lennysan/status/1909636749103599729

• Statsig: https://statsig.com/

• Claude Code: https://www.anthropic.com/claude-code

• Cursor: https://cursor.com/

• Occam’s razor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

• Frozen: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2294629/

• The Wire on HBO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wire

—

Recommended books:

• Pachinko: https://www.amazon.com/Pachinko-National-Book-Award-Finalist/dp/1455563935

• Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company: https://www.amazon.com/Apple-China-Capture-Greatest-Company/dp/1668053373/

• Machine Learning: https://www.amazon.com/Machine-Learning-Tom-M-Mitchell/dp/1259096955

• Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach: https://www.amazon.com/Artificial-Intelligence-Modern-Approach-Global/dp/1292401133/

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

My biggest takeaways from this conversation:

Julie Zhuo is the former VP and Head of Design at Facebook (now Meta), author of the bestselling book The Making of a Manager, and co-founder of Sundial, an AI-powered data analysis company. Also, my first-ever podcast guest over 3 years ago!

In our conversation, we discuss:

1. The three core manager skills that translate directly to managing AI agents

2. How her team uses AI to learn new skills 10x faster

3. The “diagnose with data, treat with design” framework for balancing gut and data

4. Why hypergrowth AI companies have terrible data infrastructure (and why it doesn’t matter)

5. How to give feedback that actually lands—including Julie’s exact script for difficult conversations

6. What Julie’s teaching her kids about an AI future (hint: it’s not coding or STEM)

—

Brought to you by:

Mercury — The art of simplified finances

DX — The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers

PostHog—How developers build successful products

—

Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/from-managing-people-to-managing-ai-julie-zhuo

—

My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/172723725/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

—

Where to find Julie Zhuo:

• X: https://x.com/joulee

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-zhuo/

• Website: https://www.juliezhuo.com/

• Newsletter: https://lg.substack.com/

• Sundial: https://sundial.so/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Welcome back, Julie!

(05:18) The success of The Making of a Manager

(08:41) Why AI will make everyone a manager

(11:38) The future of management roles

(14:00) Empowering teams with AI

(21:30) Specific roles being accelerated by AI

(26:53) Data analysis in AI companies

(32:02) The role of data in design

(37:21) The evolving role of managers in the AI era

(40:22) Embracing change and uncertainty

(42:14) Timeless lessons for managers

(49:03) Balancing strengths and weaknesses

(57:49) Building a feedback culture

(01:05:33) Creating win-win situations

(01:09:27) Being aware of your own energy and conviction

(01:12:12) Navigating disagreements with higher-ups

(01:15:57) AI corner

(01:20:08) Contrarian corner

(01:23:14) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

Referenced:

• Julie Zhuo on accelerating your career, impostor syndrome, writing, building product sense, using intuition vs. data, hiring designers, and moving into management: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-2-julie-zhuo

• Waymo: https://waymo.com/

• How we restructured Airtable’s entire org for AI | Howie Liu (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-we-restructured-airtables-entire-org-for-ai

• Cursor: https://cursor.com/

• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell

• Inside ChatGPT: The fastest growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley

• Behind the founder: Marc Benioff: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-founder-marc-benioff

• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai

• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next

• The Magic Loop: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-magic-loop

• Dunning-Kruger effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

• Eric Antonow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonow/

• Methaphone: https://methaphone.com/

• Replit: https://replit.com/

• “Baby” by Justin Bieber on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/6epn3r7S14KUqlReYr77hA

• Kingdom Rush: https://www.kingdomrush.com/

• Dr. Becky on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drbeckyatgoodinside

• Emily Oster on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@profemilyoster

• La La Land on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80095365

• Granola: https://www.granola.ai/

• Matic robots: https://maticrobots.com/

• Limitless pendant: https://www.limitless.ai/

• How I AI: https://www.youtube.com/@howiaipodcast

—

Recommended books:

• The Making of a Manager: What to Do when Everyone Looks to You: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Manager-What-Everyone-Looks/dp/0525540423

• High Output Management: https://www.amazon.com/High-Output-Management-Andrew-Grove/dp/0679762884/

• Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values: https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry/dp/0061673730

• Conscious Business: How to Build Value Through Values: https://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Business-Build-through-Values/dp/1622032020

• Good Inside: A Practical Guide to Resilient Parenting Prioritizing Connection Over Correction: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Inside-Guide-Becoming-Parent/dp/0063159481/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Brendan Foody is the CEO and co-founder of Mercor, the fastest-growing company in history to go from $1M to $500M in revenue (in just 17 months!). At 22, he is also the youngest American unicorn founder ever. Mercor works with 6 of the Magnificent 7 and all top 5 AI labs to help them hire experts to create evaluations and training data that improve their models. In this conversation, Brendan explains why evals have become the critical bottleneck for AI progress, how he discovered this massive opportunity, and what the future of work might look like in an AI-driven economy.

What you’ll learn:

1. Why evals are becoming the primary bottleneck for AI progress and what this means for AI startups

2. How Mercor grew to $500M revenue in 17 months (fastest in history)

3. Brendan’s meeting with xAI that changed his company’s trajectory

4. Which skills and jobs will remain most valuable as AI continues to advance (hint: jobs with “elastic” demand)

5. Why Brendan believes AGI and superintelligence are not happening anytime soon

6. The three unique core values that drove Mercor’s success

7. How Harvard Lampoon writers are making Claude funnier

—

Brought to you by:

WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams

Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth

—

Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/experts-writing-ai-evals-brendan-foody

—

My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/173303790/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

—

Where to find Brendan Foody:

• X: https://x.com/BrendanFoody

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendan-foody-2995ab10b/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Brendan Foody and Mercor

(05:38) The “era of evals”

(09:26) Understanding the AI training landscape

(17:10) The future of work and AI

(25:54) The evolution of labor markets

(29:55) Understanding how AI models are trained

(38:58) Building Mercor

(53:27) Lessons from past ventures

(56:55) The future of AI and model improvement

(01:00:41) His personal use of AI and final thoughts

—

References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/experts-writing-ai-evals-brendan-foody

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Ethan Smith is the CEO of Graphite—the leading SEO growth agency—and my go-to expert on SEO. After 18 years of mastering traditional SEO, Ethan has been at the forefront of what is called AEO: answer engine optimization, or, more simply, getting your product to show up in ChatGPT/Claude/Gemini/Perplexity answers. He’s discovered that ChatGPT traffic converts six times better than Google search—and most companies are completely missing this opportunity.

In our conversation, we discuss:

1. His 7-step playbook to rank #1 in ChatGPT

2. Why ChatGPT traffic converts 6x better than Google

3. How early-stage startups can win at AEO immediately (unlike with SEO, which takes years)

4. The three tactics that actually work: landing pages, YouTube videos, and Reddit comments

5. Why help-center content can suddenly be your highest-ROI investment

6. The specific Reddit strategy that works (spoiler: be authentic)

7. Why AI-generated content doesn’t work

—

Brought to you by:

Orkes—The enterprise platform for reliable applications and agentic workflows

Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.

Great Question—Empower everyone to run great research

—

Where to find Ethan Smith:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ethan_l_s

• LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ethans-linkedin

• Graphite: https://graphite.io/

• Graphite Research Papers: https://bit.ly/graphite-five-percent

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Welcome back, Ethan

(04:34) The changing landscape of SEO

(06:19) AEO (answer engine optimization) vs. GEO (generative engine optimization)

(08:13) The impact of AEO

(11:51) How early-stage startups can win at AEO

(14:34) The quality of AEO leads

(15:35) On-site vs. off-site traffic

(16:32) Reddit’s role in AEO and avoiding spam

(20:11) How AI models use citations (RAG)

(21:41) Key principles for winning at AEO

(25:00) Avoiding hyper-SEOed content, and the importance of originality

(28:55) Actionable AEO playbook: steps and experiments

(33:35) Tracking, measuring, and share of voice

(38:34) Adapting AEO for B2B, commerce, and early-stage companies

(41:11) Is letting AI index your content good?

(43:06) Experimentation, control groups, and measuring results

(46:15) The future of AEO, SEO, and search channels

(51:35) AI-generated content: what works and what doesn’t

(55:25) The dangers of infinite AI derivatives

(58:44) The future: convergence of LLMs and search

(01:00:40) Help-center optimization and the long tail

(01:03:18) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

Resources and episode mentions: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-aeo-ethan-smith

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Ben Horowitz is the co-founder of Andreessen Horowitz, Silicon Valley’s largest and most influential venture capital firm, with over $46B in committed capital across multiple funds. He took Loudcloud public with just $2 million in revenue (dubbed “the IPO from hell”), sold it for $1.6 billion, and has backed companies from Facebook to Stripe to Airbnb to OpenAI to Databricks (now worth more than $100 billion). His management philosophy—forged through near-death experiences and refined through coaching hundreds of CEOs—contradicts most conventional startup wisdom.

In our conversation, Ben shares:

1. Why “founder mode” is half right and half dangerously wrong

2. The story behind “Good Product Manager/Bad Product Manager” and why it went viral despite being written in anger

3. Where the biggest AI startup opportunities remain

4. Why you need to run toward fear, never away

5. The one trait that predicts that a founder will fail as CEO

6. Inside Paid in Full, Ben’s nonprofit awarding pensions to pioneering hip-hop artists

—

Brought to you by:

DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers: http://getdx.com/lenny

Basecamp—The famously straightforward project management system from 37signals: https://www.basecamp.com/lenny

Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life: https://miro.com/lenny

—

Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/46b-of-hard-truths-from-ben-horowitz

—

My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/172439345/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

—

Where to find Ben Horowitz:

• X: https://x.com/bhorowitz

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/behorowitz/

• Website: https://benhorowitz.com/

• Andreessen Horowitz’s website: https://a16z.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Ben Horowitz

(04:09) Important leadership lessons from Shaka Senghor

(10:15) Running toward fear and why hesitation kills companies

(19:35) Who shouldn’t start a company

(22:36) The Databricks story: thinking bigger

(24:54) Managerial leverage and CEO psychology

(28:06) When founders should be replaced as CEOs

(31:20) Normalizing failure for CEOs

(37:57) Counterintuitive lessons about building companies

(42:31) “Good Product Manager/Bad Product Manager”

(48:21) Product managers as leaders

(51:16) Why a16z invested in Adam Neumann after WeWork

(56:23) Is AI in a bubble?

(01:02:43) The biggest opportunities in AI

(01:12:51) Why U.S. leadership in AI matters

(01:18:53) The Paid in Full Foundation for hip-hop pioneers

(01:23:18) Lightning round: book recommendations, products, and life mottos

—

References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/46b-of-hard-truths-from-ben-horowitz

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Ezinne and Oji Udezue have over 50 years of combined product leadership experience at Microsoft, Twitter, Atlassian, WP Engine, Typeform, and Calendly. They’ve witnessed every major shift in product management, and, despite their seniority, they’re taking beginner AI courses and learning from engineers half their age, and Oji is coding more now than in the past decade—from Waterfall to Agile to AI. They are also the authors of Building Rocketships, a guide to building great products. In this conversation, the couple shares hard-won lessons they’ve learned from companies successfully adapting to AI, including their “shipyard” framework and their “sharp problem” methodology.

What you’ll learn:

1. The “shipyard” framework: why the best AI teams embrace controlled chaos

2. Why Oji writes more code now than in the past 10 years—despite being a PM for more than 25 years

3. The three skills that matter most for PMs in 2025: curiosity, humility, and agency

4. How to identify “sharp problems”

5. AI at the core vs. AI at the edge: why companies that are building entirely new AI-centric codebases will beat those just “sprinkling AI” on existing products

6. The counterintuitive truth: engineers are moving so fast with AI that PMs are now the bottleneck

7. Their biggest product lesson from 50 combined years

—

Brought to you by:

Mercury—The art of simplified finances

Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.

Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

—

Where to find Oji and Ezinne:

• ProductMind on Substack: https://substack.com/@ojiudezue

• ProductMind on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/productmindco

• ProductMind on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ProductMindX/videos

• ProductMind on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/07OVh5pdSv0szHPwWktzQQ

• ProductMind website: https://www.productmind.co/

• Oji on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ojiudezue/

• Ezinne on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ezinne/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Oji and Ezinne

(04:14) The evolving role of product managers

(08:01) Challenges and opportunities in product management

(10:34) Sharp problems

(12:37) The shipyard model for product development

(17:02) Hiring PMs in the AI era

(24:55) The importance of staying humble

(27:16) Hands-on learning and personal projects

(39:10) Companies succeeding with AI adoption

(46:25) Lessons from 50 years in product

(49:22) Simplicity in design

(51:24) The role of communication in strategy

(55:17) Career intentions and personal growth

(01:00:00) Ethics and responsibility in product management

(01:03:09) Introducing Building Rocketships

(01:06:42) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

Referenced:

• How 80,000 companies build with AI: products as organisms, the death of org charts, and why agents will outnumber employees by 2026 | Asha Sharma (CVP of AI Platform at Microsoft): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-80000-companies-build-with-ai-asha-sharma

• Picking sharp problems, increasing virality, and unique product frameworks | Oji Udezue (Typeform, Twitter, Calendly, Atlassian): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/picking-sharp-problems-increasing

• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/

• Joff Redfern on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mejoff/

• Brownian motion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion

• Calendly: https://calendly.com/

• Women in Product: https://womenpm.org/

• Brian Chesky’s secret mentor who died 9 times, started the Burning Man board, and built the world’s first midlife wisdom school | Chip Conley (founder of MEA): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/chip-conley

• Home Assistant: https://www.home-assistant.io/

• What people are vibe coding (and actually using): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-people-are-vibe-coding-and-actually

• How many layers should I wear today?: https://layers.today/

• Typeform: https://www.typeform.com/

• David Okuniev on X: https://x.com/okuiux

• Clay: https://www.clay.com/

• Martin Eriksson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martineriksson/

• Geoffrey Moore on finding your beachhead, crossing the chasm, and dominating a market: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/geoffrey-moore-on-finding-your-beachhead

• Dave Mendlen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davemendlen/

• Deepfake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepfake

• How to kickstart and scale a marketplace business: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-kickstart-and-scale-a-marketplace

• Forever on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81418639

• Paradise on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/paradise-2b4b8988-50c9-4097-bf93-bc34a99a5b4f

• Sinners: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31193180/

• Claude: https://claude.ai/

• Nespresso Vertuo: https://www.nespresso.com/us/en/vertuo-coffee-machines

• Gamma: https://gamma.app/

• Framer: https://www.framer.com/

• Lovable: https://lovable.dev/

• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika

• Llama: https://www.llama.com/

—

Recommended books:

• Building Rocketships: Product Management for High-Growth Companies: https://www.amazon.com/Building-Rocketships-Management-High-Growth-Companies/dp/1962339068

• Coda version of Building Rocketships: https://www.productmind.co/brpro

• Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Unorthodox-Guide-Making-Things/dp/0063046067

• The Let Them Theory: A Life-Changing Tool That Millions of People Can’t Stop Talking About: https://www.amazon.com/Let-Them-Theory-Life-Changing-Millions/dp/1401971369/

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

My biggest takeaways from this conversation:

Howie Liu is the co-founder and CEO of Airtable, the no-code platform valued at around $12 billion. After a viral tweet declared “Airtable is dead” based on incorrect data, Howie led a radical transformation: reorganizing the entire company around AI, becoming an “IC CEO” who codes daily, and achieving over $100 million in free cash flow.

What you’ll learn:

1. The “fast thinking” vs. “slow thinking” team structure that lets Airtable ship AI features weekly (inspired by Daniel Kahneman)

2. Why Howie uses AI hourly (not daily) and is Airtable’s #1 inference-cost user globally

3. Why CEOs must become ICs again in the AI era (and how to restructure your calendar to make it possible)

4. Why “playing” with AI tools should be mandatory—Howie tells employees to cancel all meetings for a week to experiment

5. The specific skills product managers, engineers, and designers need to develop to succeed in the AI era

6. Why evals can kill innovation (and when to use “vibes” instead)

—

Brought to you by:

LucidLink—Real-time cloud storage for teams

DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers

Claude.ai—The AI for problem solvers and enterprise

—

Where to find Howie Liu

• X: https://x.com/howietl

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/howieliu/

• Email: [email protected]

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Howie Liu and Airtable

(04:05) The “Airtable is dead” viral tweet controversy

(08:07) The rise of IC CEOs

(10:57) AI’s paradigm shift in product development

(16:27) Specific changes Airtable has made

(21:38) Fast- and slow-thinking teams

(32:57) The emergence of new form factors in AI models

(34:48) Airtable’s vision and philosophy

(40:20) Empowering teams with AI tools

(46:50) Encouraging experimentation and play

(50:55) Cross-functional skills in product teams

(01:03:35) The importance of evals and open-ended testing

(01:08:06) Key strategies for AI-driven success

(01:12:43) Counterintuitive startup wisdom

(01:22:21) Don't step away from the details that you love

(01:25:50) Advice for aspiring engineers and designers

(01:30:00) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

Referenced:

• Airtable: https://www.airtable.com/

• All In podcast: https://allin.com/

• Nikita Bier on X: https://x.com/nikitabier

• Figma: https://www.figma.com/

• The AI-native startup: 5 products, 7-figure revenue, 100% AI-written code | Dan Shipper (co-founder and CEO of Every): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-every-dan-shipper

• Every: https://every.to/

• Cursor: https://cursor.com/

• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell

• Windsurf: https://windsurf.com/

• Building a magical AI code editor used by over 1 million developers in four months: The untold story of Windsurf | Varun Mohan (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-untold-story-of-windsurf-varun-mohan

• Rippling: https://www.rippling.com/

• Omni: https://www.airtable.com/lp/ai-psu-plp

• How ChatGPT accidentally became the fastest-growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley

• Palantir: https://www.palantir.com/

• Harvey: https://www.harvey.ai/

• v0: https://v0.dev/

• Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch

• Replit: https://replit.com/

• Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad

• Lovable: https://lovable.dev/

• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika

• Runway Game Worlds: https://play.runwayml.com/login

• Sesame: https://www.sesame.com

• NotebookLM: https://notebooklm.google

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com

• Andrew Ofstad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aofstad/

• Stripe: https://stripe.com/

• Eames chair: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eames_Lounge_Chair

• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai

• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next

• IDEO design thinking: https://designthinking.ideo.com/

• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach

• The Studio on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/the-studio/umc.cmc.7518algxc4lsoobtsx30dqb52

• Silicon Valley on HBOMax: https://www.hbomax.com/shows/silicon-valley/b4583939-e39f-4b5c-822d-5b6cc186172d

• Self Edge: https://www.selfedge.com/

• Studio D’Artisan: https://www.selfedge.com/studio-dartisan

• Whitesville T-shirt: https://store.toyo-enterprise.co.jp/shopbrand/ct48/

• Guest Series | Dr. Paul Conti: How to Understand & Assess Your Mental Health: https://www.hubermanlab.com/episode/guest-series-dr-paul-conti-how-to-understand-and-assess-your-mental-health

—

Recommended books:

• Thinking, Fast and Slow: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555

• The Three-Body Problem: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Body-Problem-Cixin-Liu/dp/0765382032

• Trauma: The Invisible Epidemic: How Trauma Works and How We Can Heal From It: https://us.amazon.com/Trauma-Invisible-Epidemic-Works-Heal/dp/1683647351/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Asha Sharma leads AI product strategy at Microsoft, where she works with thousands of companies building AI products and has unique visibility into what’s working (and what’s not) across more than 15,000 startups and enterprises. Before Microsoft, Asha was COO at Instacart, and VP of Product & Engineering at Meta, notably leading product for Messenger.

What you’ll learn:

1. Why we’re moving from “product as artifact” to “product as organism” and what this means for builders

2. Microsoft’s “seasons” planning framework that allows them to adapt quickly in the AI era

3. The death of the org chart: how agents are turning hierarchies into task networks and why “the loop, not the lane” is the new organizing principle

4. Why post-training will soon see more investment than pre-training—and how to build your own AI moat with fine-tuning

5. Her prediction for the “agentic society”—where org charts become work charts and agents outnumber humans in your company

6. The three-phase pattern every successful AI company follows (and why most fail at phase one)

7. The rise of code-native interfaces and why GUIs might be going the way of the desktop

8. What Asha learned from Satya Nadella about optimism

—

Brought to you by:

Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth: https://enterpret.com/lenny

DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers: http://getdx.com/lenny

Fin—The #1 AI agent for customer service: https://fin.ai/lenny

—

Transcript: ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-80000-companies-build-with-ai-asha-sharma

—

My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/171413445/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation⁠

—

Where to find Asha Sharma:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aboutasha/

• Blog: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/author/asha-sharma/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Asha Sharma

(04:18) From “product as artifact” to “product as organism”

(06:20) The rise of post-training and the future of AI product development

(09:10) Successful AI companies: patterns and pitfalls

(12:01) The evolution of full-stack builders

(14:15) “The loop, not the lane”—the new organizing principle

(16:24) The future of user interfaces: from GUI to code-native

(19:34) The rise of the agentic society

(22:58) The “work chart” vs. the “org chart”

(26:24) How Microsoft is using agents

(28:23) Planning and strategy in the AI landscape

(35:38) The importance of platform fundamentals

(39:31) Lessons from industry giants

(42:10) What’s driving Asha

(44:30) Reinforcement learning (RL) and optimization loops

(49:19) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

Referenced:

• Copilot: https://copilot.microsoft.com/

• Cursor: https://cursor.com/

• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell

• Inside ChatGPT: The fastest growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley

• GitHub: https://github.com

• Dragon Medical One: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/health-solutions/clinical-workflow/dragon-medical-one

• Windsurf: https://windsurf.com/

• Building a magical AI code editor used by over 1 million developers in four months: The untold story of Windsurf | Varun Mohan (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-untold-story-of-windsurf-varun-mohan

• Lovable: https://lovable.dev/

• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika

• Bolt: http://bolt.com

• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons

• Replit: https://replit.com/

•Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad

• He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor

• Sierra: https://sierra.ai/

• Spark: https://github.com/features/spark

• Peter Yang on X: https://x.com/petergyang

• How AI will impact product management: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-ai-will-impact-product-management

• Instacart: http://instacart.com/

• Terminator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator_(franchise)

• Porch Group: https://porchgroup.com/

• WhatsApp: https://www.whatsapp.com/

• Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs: https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html

• Satya Nadella on X: https://x.com/satyanadella

• Perfect Match 360°: Artificial intelligence to find the perfect donor match: https://ivi-fertility.com/blog/perfect-match-360-artificial-intelligence-to-find-the-perfect-donor-match/

• OpenAI’s GPT-5 shows potential in healthcare with early cancer detection capabilities: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/openais-gpt-5-shows-potential-in-healthcare-with-early-cancer-detection-capabilities/articleshow/123173952.cms

• F1: The Movie: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt16311594/

• For All Mankind on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/for-all-mankind/umc.cmc.6wsi780sz5tdbqcf11k76mkp7

• The Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.com/

• Dewalt Powerstack: https://www.dewalt.com/powerstack

• Regret Minimization Framework: https://s3.amazonaws.com/kajabi-storefronts-production/sites/2147500522/themes/2148012322/downloads/rLuObc2QuOwjLrinx5Yu_regret-minimization-framework.pdf

—

Recommended books:

• The Thinking Machine: Jensen Huang, Nvidia, and the World’s Most Coveted Microchip: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Machine-Jensen-Coveted-Microchip/dp/0593832698

• Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0593466497

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

My biggest takeaways from this conversation:

Garrett Lord is co-founder and CEO of Handshake, which started as a career network for college students and new grads but recently discovered something extraordinary: they were sitting on the world’s largest network of academic experts—exactly what frontier AI labs desperately needed. With 500,000 PhDs and 3 million advanced degree holders creating training data, in just eight months they’ve built a new business that hit $50 million in revenue in its first four months and is on track to blow past $100M in the first 12 months.

What you’ll learn:

1. How Handshake found an opportunity to leverage their proprietary network of experts to launch a data-labeling business that’s on track to blow past $100 million ARR in 12 months

2. Why AI models need human experts (e.g. physics PhDs) to improve, and what this “data labeling” actually involves

3. Inside the actual work: what a biology PhD does for 8 hours that makes GPT-5 smarter

4. The playbook for building a startup inside a startup: separate teams, separate offices, separate everything

5. Why the shift from “generalist” to “expert” data labeling created a once-in-a-lifetime business opportunity

6. Why AI won’t eliminate entry-level jobs—it’s creating “Iron Man suits” that make junior employees 10x more productive

—

Brought to you by:

CodeRabbit—Cut code review time and bugs in half. Instantly: https://coderabbit.link/lenny

Orkes—The enterprise platform for reliable applications and agentic workflows: https://www.orkes.io/

Claude.ai—The AI for problem solvers and enterprise: http://claude.ai/

—

Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-handshake-garrett-lord

—

My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/171410958/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

—

Where to find Garrett Lord:

• X: https://x.com/garrettlord

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garrettlord/

• Email: [email protected]

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Garrett Lord

(05:00) Understanding data labeling and its importance

(13:08) The role of experts in AI model training

(15:35) The future of AI and human collaboration

(24:17) Why AI won’t eliminate entry-level jobs

(27:58) The continuous improvement of AI models

(33:05) The emergence of Handshake’s new business model

(37:07) Incubating new ideas in established companies

(40:42) Handshake's competitive advantage

(45:43) Scaling up and meeting market demand

(48:38) Overcoming challenges and adapting

(53:08) The importance of separate teams and ownership

(57:26) The future of job matching with AI

(01:00:30) The biggest bottlenecks to advancing models further

(01:02:37) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

Referenced:

• GPQA: https://github.com/idavidrein/gpqa

• Handshake: https://joinhandshake.com/

• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai

• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons

• Goldman Sachs: https://www.goldmansachs.com/

• General Motors: https://www.gm.com/

• Google: https://about.google/

• Sahil Bhaiwala on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sahil-bhaiwala-459b0354/

• Francisco “Paco” Guzman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guzmanhe/

• Avery Yip on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/averyyip/

• Game of Thrones on HBO: https://www.hbomax.com/shows/game-of-thrones/4f6b4985-2dc9-4ab6-ac79-d60f0860b0ac

• SNOO: https://www.happiestbaby.com/products/snoo-smart-bassinet

• Careers at Handshake: https://joinhandshake.com/careers/

—

Recommended books:

• Zero to One: Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future: https://www.amazon.com/Zero-One-Notes-Startups-Future/dp/0804139296

• The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answers―Straight Talk on the Challenges of Entrepreneurship: https://www.amazon.com/Hard-Thing-About-Things-Building/dp/0062273205

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.