Market Proof Marketing: Home Builder Marketing Insights

• A new take on how leads work
• Marc talks about how and why homes.com is “fixing what’s missing.”

• Chris' winning plays from the days of insurance wars
• Building a brand people actually like

• No paywall, no catch
• Matterports: now table stakes

Steve's First DYC Appearance - Ep 5: Old Habits Die Hard

MPM Ep 69: Parade of Homes - Is It Worth It? With Steve Shoemaker

2025 Summit is filling up and on-site rooms are booking fast - be sure to get your ticket today.

• Beth: Shares an email from a marketer who’s thriving in a tough market.
• Julie: Tells a cautionary tale about painted brick and false assumptions.
• Kevin: Highlights the value of creatively marketing each finished home.

• Google's New AI Ad Tool: AI Max
• April Home Sales Dropped to the Slowest Pace Since 2009

In this episode of Market Proof Marketing, Kevin Oakley is joined by Beth Russell and Jen Barkan to talk about the real value of human connection in online sales, the evolving use of AI tools, and what builders need to understand right now about market timing and syndication platforms. Jen surprises everyone with an AI-assisted rap performance, and the group explores how technology can support, but never replace, the critical role of people in the new home sales process.

Key Topics

Using conversation intelligence tools to streamline CRM input and improve coaching

Exploring AI’s coaching potential and why human-to-human dialogue remains critical in the sales funnel

Reflections on how AI search is still evolving and why it’s not what’s driving April’s lead volume

Community launch timing: how fear of delays is keeping teams from maximizing early interest

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS

Online Sales & Marketing Summit 2025 - Don't miss Jen Barkan rapping LIVE on stage at this year's summit

• Jen Barkan - unpacks how online sales specialists are embracing AI tools like CallRail Premium, and debuts her AI-generated rap, “Online People Talking.”
• Kevin Oakley - reflects on the power of live performances and the value of human time as the true definition of luxury, drawing comparisons to brands like Chick-fil-A.
• Beth Russell - explains the intent behind a recent LinkedIn post and emphasizes that builders shouldn’t stress about AI search optimization—focus instead on creating quality content.

• Lot Supply Loosens, but Market Still Undersupplied

  The team discusses how a surge of lots in the excavation stage - expected to come online in late 2025 to early 2026 - could create future pressure. The team dives into how online sales teams should be thinking about lead engagement in light of this news. 

• Homes.com Will Boost Banned Listings on Zillow

  Kevin breaks down Zillow’s new policy around MLS listings and pocket listings, and how Homes.com is seizing the moment by offering additional promotion for listings banned from Zillow.

Join DYC’s All Access community — free for builders, online sales specialists, and home building leaders.

Have feedback or want to fight for more Story Time or Things We Love, Things We Hate? Let us know: your messages bring us joy (and influence podcast decisions!).

In this episode of Market Proof Marketing, Jackie Lipinski and Beth Russell reflect on the power of clear communication, clean marketing systems, and community-first thinking. From school movie nights and panic cleaning to organizing ad accounts and analyzing the Q1 Online Sales Benchmarks, this episode covers the serious and the silly. Plus, a detailed recap of the most recent Market Proof Marketing Academy, thoughts on Google's AI ad integrations, and a reminder that your brand lives well beyond your website.

Communication fails & panic cleaning
Highlights from the Market Proof Marketing Academy
Q1 2025 Online Sales Benchmarks
Google tests ads in AI chatbot conversations
Community planning and lifestyle-driven decision-making
Shifting focus from incentives to value
All Access reminders and listener appreciation

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS

Online Sales & Marketing Summit is Filling Up - Grab Your Tickets Today

• Beth shares a personal story about missing a school event due to unclear and inconsistent communication, something builder marketers should heed when planning outreach for events.

• Jackie reflects on "panic cleaning" before company arrives and ties it to the need for marketers to keep their ad accounts clean and organized, even if no one’s watching (yet).

• The team gives a shout-out to Kendra and listeners who asked for Story Time to stay; your wishes have been granted!

• Q1 2025 Online Sales Benchmarks
  Jackie and Beth review Amanda Martin’s new online sales benchmark report summarizing over 50,000 leads from 33 markets. Despite Q1 being particularly tough for many builders, the consistency and performance of online sales teams remain impressive. They also discuss how these benchmarks can serve as both inspiration and a performance check.

• Google is Testing Ads in Third-party AI Chatbot Conversations
  Google’s experiment with placing ads inside chatbot conversations sparks discussion on what this means for marketers. Jackie and Beth point out the infancy of this format, the very low AI-driven site traffic to builders today, and why the content on your own website - and how it gets syndicated elsewhere - remains your biggest asset for visibility.

• Beth's Love: Taking a walk through her community trail reminded her how thoughtfully designed neighborhoods deliver lasting emotional value to residents, something builders should showcase more intentionally.

• Jackie's Love: Celebrating 10 years since relocating to Washington state, Jackie reflects on the importance of loving where you live and how lifestyle decisions drive buying behavior.

Want to rewatch part of the Academy or catch exclusive behind-the-scenes content?
Join DYC’s All Access community — free for builders, online sales specialists, and home building leaders.

Have feedback or want to fight for more Story Time? Let us know: your messages bring us joy (and influences podcast decisions!).

Kevin, Jackie, and Beth explore why panic marketing leads to bad decisions—and why AI, chatbots, and SEO are still misunderstood tools, not magical solutions. They unpack the overreaction to AI “replacing” Google, the importance of strategic authority in marketing, and the hard truth that too much content is just as bad as too little. Plus: how builders can actually compete with resale, avoid misleading optimism, and why YouTube is still often the most underused, but valuable tool in your toolkit.

Story Time:

• Beth makes a call for marketers to reclaim authority—and stop letting others clutter the top of the funnel.
• Jackie recounts the “ChatGPT is replacing Google” debate—and why data still tells a different story.
•  Inspiration and burnout: Why looking outside the industry isn’t helpful without true internal context.
• Kevin reflects on building your message for marketers who’ve been in the seat for 12 months or less, and how leadership often unintentionally derails them.

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS

Online Sales & Marketing Summit 50% Sold Out! Grab Your Tickets Today

In The News: 

• 2025 SEM-PPC Benchmarks by Sarah Simmerman  
• Top Chatbots Are Giving Horrible Financial Advice
• See How Your State Ranks on the New Realtor.com Report Card
• Why the Housing Market is Actually Much Healthier in 2025

Things We Love - Things We Hate:

• Jackie: LOVES YouTube (University) for solving everyday problems—one backyard faucet at a time.
• Beth: Hates eye dilation after a doctor visit; loves ambient bird sounds as background for builder content.
• Kevin: Loves a builder video that highlights running errands on a typical Saturday in a particular community.

In this episode, Kevin, Beth, and Julie tackle the power of foundational marketing—reminding us that great content isn't a trend, it's the baseline. They unpack why “just run more ads” is a dangerous trap, how AI is becoming a real-world assistant (but also maybe your nosy coworker), and what Disney, Chick-fil-A, and Hamilton all teach us about brand experience. Plus, why resale is back, price reductions aren’t a failure, and cookies might be eternal after all.

Story Time (1:15):

• Julie shares how simply improving website content transformed lead quality and campaign results.
• Beth reminds us that content needs intentionality—posting for followers ≠ posting for buyers.
• Beth “confesses” to inviting Kevin to a strategy call—and how collaboration shifted a builder’s mindset.
• Kevin reflects on staying calm in market chaos and helping new marketers zoom out from ad metrics to real business impact. AI to the rescue: Kevin uses "deep research" AI to fix his fridge (and skips paying an overpriced repair bill).

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS

Online Sales & Marketing Summit 50% Sold Out! Grab Your Tickets Today

In The News: 

• Opt-In To OpenAI’s Memory Feature? 5 Crucial Things To Know
• How Tariffs Will Impact Digital Ad Spend (in surprising ways!)
• Google Will Keep Cookies and Backtrack on its Opt-Out Plans
• New Data: Google's AI Overviews are Hurting (Some) Click-through Rates

Things We Love - Things We Hate:

• Beth: Loved Disney’s flawless experience (and its marketing mastery); felt the pain of Universal’s less-than-magical contrast.
• Julie: Finally saw Hamilton live—loved it even more than expected, especially with her fully-costumed son 
• Kevin: Loves carbs in Italy, hates the chaos of driving through medieval towns (and possibly racking up €500 in traffic violations).
• BONUS - link to the Chik-fil-a article Kevin referenced

💡 Highlights of Educational Programs:

🧠 Online Sales & Marketing Summit

• Returning to Chicago by popular demand

• Focuses on education, networking, and industry best practices

• Largest gathering of online sales specialists in the industry

• “The biggest party for online sales specialists in the universe!”

🎓 Online Sales Academy

• 8-week virtual course for new or untrained OSCs

• Includes 3 live sessions + on-demand training

• Offers a certification upon completion

• Next session: Starts May 20, 2025

👩‍💼 Online Sales Academy: Leadership Edition

• For leaders managing OSCs

• Includes 3-day kickoff, quarterly sessions, and summit meet-up

• Emphasizes program success metrics and understanding the OSC role

📈 Market Proof Marketing Academy

• Expanded to include strategy, execution, and leadership insights

• Led by Jackie, Sarah, Beth, Julie, Karla, and Kevin

• Covers Google/Meta marketing, budgeting, algorithms, and more

• Next session: May 6–8, 2025 with follow-ups over 8 weeks

🎨 Rise and Design (New!)

• A creative retreat for marketers and designers

• In-person, hands-on intensive in Columbus, OH (Aug 27–28)

• Co-led by Karla Tuten and Kevin Oakley

• Designed for brand, creative, and marketing teams needing community and deeper problem-solving

🤝 Marketing Leadership Collective

• Year-long leadership development for marketers

• Involves curated peer groups, guest speakers, mentorship, and industry-first previews

• Originated as a “shadow project,” now a cornerstone experience

• Invitation-based, application required

🗣️ Notable Quotes:

• “This is like a crash course in new home marketing—by nerds, for nerds.” – Jackie

• “You’ll feel seen. Inspired. Reinvigorated.” – Beth

• “We’re doing the Lord’s work.” – Mike (in jest)

📢 Closing Notes:

• Subscribe, rate & review the podcast

• Share feedback at [email protected]

• Join the free DYC All Access membership for behind-the-scenes content

• Special thanks to all past and future Academy attendees!

Transcript"

Mike Lyon: Yeah, yeah, some little behind the scenes before we get on.

Mike Lyon: Mike was chastising everybody about the audio.

Mike Lyon: Jen was right.

Mike Lyon: Prize.

Jen Barkan: Surprise, surprise.

Beth Russell: Know, self-proclaimed audio engineer.

Mike Lyon: Yes, I build websites, and I have Misophonia which you can. Google, that one, ladies and gentlemen hey, welcome to episode 384. My name is Mike Lyon, and with me today are these illustrious, wonderful people, Beth, Jackie, Sarah Jen. Carla will join us eventually, and the sound is a little bit different

Mike Lyon: my voice, because Kevin Oakley is gone. He is on a world world tour of Italy

Mike Lyon: with his wife for his 20th

Mike Lyon: wedding anniversary. And I was thinking about this guys, have you, have you ever seen Kevin go anywhere with Jess's wife?

Jackie Lipinski: Now.

Jen Barkan: No.

Mike Lyon: I have.

Mike Lyon: I don't think I have either.

Jackie Lipinski: I'm pretty sure he giggled in a video. And I was like, What is that, Kevin?

Mike Lyon: What is happening.

Jackie Lipinski: Yeah.

Jen Barkan: Eating ice, eating gelato twice.

Mike Lyon: I know.

Jen Barkan: We've been.

Mike Lyon: Stalking his stories. But I really would. I want to fact, check that when he gets back to see if he has ever been somewhere, just with his wife only.

Mike Lyon: But we're so happy for him. What do we do when he's gone? We take over the podcast

Mike Lyon: and I know

Mike Lyon: you know the opening says that we're here to help you not sell you. But when Mike takes over I start selling stuff.

Jen Barkan: No.

Beth Russell: Oh, my goodness!

Mike Lyon: Watch out everybody. Yeah, it's gonna happen. No. But what are we? What do we want to do? We want to do something fun and unique.

Mike Lyon: This for this podcast and not just to obviously drop something on you, but also save it for posterity in the future. Because we have so many educational opportunities for our builder partners, and beyond in the home builder space that we wanted to go through each one and kind of talk about what it is and who it's for. And so that's why we have these awesome people together. We're going to try and break the Internet and just invite everybody

Mike Lyon: from our our company to join

Mike Lyon: So that's what we're gonna do today. Excuse me, and then we'll we'll take and put this out there. So if someone, you know sends an email and says, Should I come to? You know the marketing leadership collective? We'll go, hey? Listen to this cause Beth's gonna talk about it.

Mike Lyon: How does that sound? Everybody? You guys excited.

Jackie Lipinski: Yeah.

Jen Barkan: Oh, I'm.

Beth Russell: So.

Jen Barkan: Excited.

Mike Lyon: You sound. You guys, all.

Jen Barkan: I.

Mike Lyon: Unacceptable.

Mike Lyon: He was like.

Jen Barkan: Excited.

Jackie Lipinski: So excited.

Jen Barkan: So excited. I cannot wait to talk about this.

Mike Lyon: We're going to.

Beth Russell: Soundboard.

Mike Lyon: Shut it down.

Beth Russell: Sounds.

Mike Lyon: We're gonna do this another time. All right. No, here we go. Just so let's start 1st with a Biggie, the Biggie, because when you're hearing this.

Mike Lyon: ladies and gentlemen. It will be live and open and available to the public.

Jen Barkan: Hmm.

Mike Lyon: Drumroll, please. It's the online sales and marketing summit.

Jen Barkan: Working.

Mike Lyon: We're turning back over to our the magical city of Chicago. We're going back to Chicago by popular demand. Everybody loved it. Everybody loves the food scene there. It's like a Timu New York. What is it? It's like?

Mike Lyon: It's like.

Jackie Lipinski: Hey!

Mike Lyon: 50% of New York for like 50% of the price. You know, that's why we love Chicago. It really is fun. Did you guys have fun last time.

Beth Russell: Yeah.

Jen Barkan: Oh, my God!

Beth Russell: Chicago. It was always my favorite, too, like when I was still in the seat, and would attend.

Beth Russell: Chicago is my favorite.

Mike Lyon: It is a special city, Jackie. Why did you get so offended? Because you're from Chicago.

Jackie Lipinski: Yeah, of course, I'm like.

Jen Barkan: Yeah.

Jackie Lipinski: You're like hurting my hometown, I was like, oh, yes, it is amazing. It is better, although I've never been in New York, so don't bite me.

Mike Lyon: No, judge, no, don't judge. What I was saying is, Chicago is awesome. I mean, I go to Chicago like once a year, just on my own with my wife I mean.

Jackie Lipinski: Like the walkability of the venue is great. And this year we're changing up with like the date of the week. And because so many people were staying for through the weekend we're like, alright, let's make it built in. So most people can continue to see that weekend. So.

Mike Lyon: So.

Jackie Lipinski: I'm really excited.

Mike Lyon: We're excited about the summit. We've been there done that we're going back to the same hotel, so we know how to make this awesome, and we're bringing in some magical speakers. We always like to rotate some of those speakers on the on the 1st morning, and then plug in our attendees to speak in the seat. But let's talk about what the online sales and marketing summit is for those of you who may not know or they're hearing this, this is like,

Mike Lyon: the event where you get a little taste and a sample of all the things that you can do in in the marketing, online marketing world and the online sales world and the creative services world, and you get people talking about like cool stuff that they're doing. And it's all over 2 days.

Mike Lyon: Lot of it's content, rich. It is content, heavy. And we give all this stuff to you. Jam packed in 2 days, and we do it all for the price of admission. We're not going to sell you anything else. You're not going to get hounded by our partners. They're there to just learn alongside with you.

Mike Lyon: So it's just a different vibe. I don't know. I I we've tried to create something around it, and we did it a little bit on accident.

Mike Lyon: Following that pro. You know, thing like we're gonna help you not sell you. I'm gonna give you everything for free. Last year, unbeknownst to me, Mike, the Scrooge Mcduck, over here.

Mike Lyon: They just put a whole all our books on the back end for free, and people were just taking our books I was like, I didn't know we were doing that. That's fun. It's like Christmas. Jen, what do you think about the summit? What do you like about it?

Jen Barkan: Well, I know I'm biased. But I've been to a lot of different conferences. And this is truly unique. One, speaking from the online sales side of things. It is the biggest party for online sales specialists in the universe. Because there's nothing like this. I mean, we're bringing hundreds of online sales specialists together. And you know, as an attendee, my 1st year I remember sitting there looking around, going. These are all my people.

Jen Barkan: and we've even had that feedback from, you know, over the years of like, Hey, you guys are great. Of course I love hearing from you and learning from you. But where I get so much is just from the people sitting at my table, and those conversations that happen, you know, in between sessions.

Jen Barkan: So it's it really is just a unique special experience out there in the industry.

Mike Lyon: Yeah, I love that. It is the largest collection

Mike Lyon: of online sales specialists in the known universe.

Mike Lyon: So that it is fun. I think last year was over 160

Mike Lyon: that were literally online sales, specialists not just adjacent.

Jen Barkan: Right.

Mike Lyon: What do you guys think from the marketing? And what would you say is so special about the marketing side of the summit? Beth.

Beth Russell: You are given a ton of information at all different levels. So it fits for every single attendee, regardless of where they are in their career. But to kind of reiterate what Jen said. It was the one week of the year where I truly felt seen where I was surrounded by people that understood the highs and the lows of what I did that were

Beth Russell: trying to conquer the same obstacles that I was trying to conquer, and I always left with this fire lit inside me of like I'm going to do better. I'm going to be better. I feel inspired. I feel completely reinvigorated of what it is that I do, and I know I'm in the right position. It really. That week I say a whole week, because I would always add a day or 2 before or after.

Beth Russell: really helped me get through the rest of the year, if I'm being honest, and I'm not sugarcoating that because it's still the same way on this side of things. Jen and I had this conversation after Summit.

Beth Russell: Either it was either last year or the year before, where it was like my 1st summit on the Dyc side, and I was like, it's a different type of fire now, because now I feel it's our responsibility to help keep that fire lit

Beth Russell: and help those networks continue to grow throughout the year. And we're finding new and creative ways to do that from our end. And it's just

Beth Russell: really, really awesome that this exists.

Mike Lyon: Hey? I like that. It is awesome that it exists. All right. So.

Mike Lyon: ladies and gentlemen, if you're hearing this, you're like I haven't been if you've been, you know, you know you know what's up. It's you gotta come back. If you haven't been, you're like, I think I should go to this.

Mike Lyon: I hear a lot of people always say like, Well, I don't know if I can go, and I always turn right around and say, Have you asked.

Mike Lyon: have you gone and forwarded this email or forwarded the link and say, Can I go to this like step one is, ask your leadership. Can I go to this.

Mike Lyon: Step 2 is like.

Jen Barkan: Hmm.

Mike Lyon: Put skin, you know. Put some skin in the game like, if you're worried about

Mike Lyon: the investment or things like that, say, hey, you know I'll I'll pay for my travel. Will you pay for my ticket?

Mike Lyon: Like I I always every summit I went to. I had to pay for myself my builder never paid for. But I I invested in my education. Someone told me, like, invest 10% of your your income into your education.

Mike Lyon: You'll go far, so I'm just telling you like, go ask ask with confidence. There's no better place in the in the world to get a download for 2 days, and, like Beth said, maybe it'll be a good therapy session for you. And you know, like Kumbaya, too. So that's great. All right, we're gonna move on because Jen's got to go to to coach some some online sales specialists. We're gonna talk about the next one on the list which is coming up soon. It's the

Mike Lyon: Online Sales Academy not to be confused with the online sales and marketing summit. Jen, what is this? Who is this.

Jen Barkan: Yes. Oh, my gosh, okay, I thought you'd never ask online sales. Academy. This is an 8 week course, and it's really structured for either a brand new online sales specialist just getting in the role, figuring things out or someone who really has never had any structured training. And so it goes through all of the fundamental.

Jen Barkan: We do, we get funky. We do get funky. It goes through the fundamental

Jen Barkan: skills. You know, core behaviors, that you need to be an ex, a successful online sales specialist. I cannot talk today. We start off this academy with 3 virtual half days together, you know, in person on zoom

Jen Barkan: as as intimate as we can possibly be on zoom getting to know each other going through these core things, and then we stay together for 8 additional weeks of on demand training meeting together virtually periodically, and you finish the course and graduate. If you have completed all the requirements and you get your official online sales certification.

Jen Barkan: So it's a pretty. It's a pretty big deal

Jen Barkan: it is, you know, not for the faint hearted it. It is a lot of work. I'm not gonna lie, but

Jen Barkan: it. You come out on the other side of it. Really feeling like you're set up for success. When you go through this this training, it really is very comprehensive.

Mike Lyon: I think we have probably like a 90%.

Jen Barkan: Yeah.

Mike Lyon: Pass ratio like you gotta pass this 10 page sales readiness, quiz at the end.

Mike Lyon: So but it is.

Jen Barkan: He's got to do homework.

Mike Lyon: It's the first, st you know. It's like the first.st If you're working with us in a long term, you know, coaching arrangement, it's like, roughly, the 1st 2 months of work that you're doing, which is

Mike Lyon: really heavy. So yeah, we've I don't know how many people total have been through this, Jen. How many.

Jen Barkan: I feel like the last time we counted it was this specific online sales Academy. We've we've been doing this since 2,018. That's the 1st year that we did it together. It's over 200 people that have that have gone through this course.

Mike Lyon: Yeah, I love it. Fantastic, alright. And when does what's that date again for for.

Jen Barkan: So our next, our next one coming up starts May 20, th and you know we we do. It is virtual, but we like to keep it, as you know, cozy as possible, because we do really try to get to know everybody and really learn kind of their unique challenges and things. So it is a small, intimate group for a virtual setting.

Mike Lyon: As of this recording how many people have signed up for that one.

Jen Barkan: 15.

Mike Lyon: 15 awesome. That's a good time. I'm gonna be doing it with you this next round.

Jen Barkan: Oh, man, bring it.

Mike Lyon: Oh, my!

Jen Barkan: Bringing the Og back.

Jen Barkan: It's gonna be like olden times with new information.

Mike Lyon: You can't see her face. But Beth was hanging her head and.

Beth Russell: I almost corrected you, and said, Grandpa Mike.

Mike Lyon: Craw.

Jackie Lipinski: Amen!

Jen Barkan: It is rare.

Jackie Lipinski: Out of this fucking.

Jen Barkan: Year to 2018. Yeah, he's yeah.

Jackie Lipinski: Grayer.

Jen Barkan: Definitely a little grayer. I can. I can tell you that.

Mike Lyon: You guys are all here. Reviews are coming.

Beth Russell: We love you, Mike. We love you, Mike.

Mike Lyon: Alright, thank you. Jen. So what do we got coming up? We got market proof marketing Academy. We got rise and design, which is a new one that Carl is gonna be talking about. We got the marketing leadership collective. And I'll talk about online sales, Academy leadership edition. Since Jen's got to go, so I'll I'll walk them through that one. Jen, are you okay with that? Or do you want to do it?

Jen Barkan: Let let me just can. I just do it right now, just because I.

Mike Lyon: Doesn't let her go 2 times in a row.

Jen Barkan: Are you guys? Okay with that? Okay, while I'm here? Okay? Well, listen, pig piggybacking. We have an online sales Academy leadership edition. Where this is. Really, you know, for leaders managing an online sales specialist or program.

Jen Barkan: You know, what we see is most leaders have never sat in the seat as an online sales specialist. And so this is really a deep dive into the role like, if you could crawl into your online sales specialist head

Jen Barkan: and really understand everything that they have to do what success looks like. For the program. And we give you those performance metrics to lead by. This is definitely the program for you. Again, we kick this off with 3 virtual days together, and then we stay together for the year. So this

Jen Barkan: yeah, this goes beyond, you know, an 8 week certification. But we actually stay together for quarterly sessions.

Jen Barkan: And then we meet up at the summit at the online sales and marketing summit because we do have a leadership track at the summit as well. So it's really this is something newer that we're doing this year, and so I have a group going through it right now.

Jen Barkan: and so we will be offering that

Jen Barkan: every year. So stay tuned for the next one.

Mike Lyon: Who's your favorite in that group?

Jen Barkan: They're all my favorite.

Mike Lyon: All right.

Jackie Lipinski: Safe.

Jen Barkan: Yeah, you're not getting me there, Buddy.

Beth Russell: I thought.

Mike Lyon: I thought I could. Okay, next up, we're going to talk about

Mike Lyon: market proof marketing Academy. This is a fun one, and we've got Sarah and Jackie on

Mike Lyon: me to help. So

Mike Lyon: so to talk through this. Now we've done this in the past right, Sarah, and it's been, I would say, probably more focused on the technical end.

Mike Lyon: Right? You get super nerdy on it for those

Mike Lyon: marketers who want to learn more. But this year you guys have all gotten together, and you're expanding it and and talking to it. So I'm gonna let Jackie kind of talk through what that revision looks like. And, Sarah, I want you to talk about like what they're still gonna get from a

Mike Lyon: you know. I don't know nerd nerds.

Jackie Lipinski: 30 seconds.

Jackie Lipinski: Thanks, Mike, you're so sweet, Carla. Just open mouthed at that, because well, and I think, well, any marketer listening to this is like, Yeah.

Mike Lyon: You guys are nerds like, Oh, they are.

Jackie Lipinski: No, this was created for nerds by nerds, market proof, marketing Academy. Let's do this.

Jackie Lipinski: Well. One of the things we said that we wanted to change, and one quote, I love to live by is, you know, be the person you needed when you were younger, and when Sarah and I met about how we want this to look and what could be help. The most people we touched base with Beth, Carla, Julie, Sarah on our team, Kevin, and we said, Let's make sure we pull

Jackie Lipinski: the value out of each team member that we can to make sure every single marketer who comes to the Academy is set up for success in the most

Jackie Lipinski: fast and efficient way that they can be, because different people come to the Academy for different reasons. They might be someone's like, I can't train up my marketing team. I need them to be there at a 20. I need them to be at an 80. So let's get there. Other people have been in the role, and they don't feel like they have a good grasp of understanding. Some people are builder partners. Some people are outside who want to really control what is happening in marketing world and explain that.

Jackie Lipinski: And so it's it's almost like a crash course in new home marketing that Sarah is covering. Really, Sarah, love you so much the found. Thank you for your sacrifice, the foundational marketing elements for Meta, Google analytics the details, and then Beth, me, Sarah, Julie

Jackie Lipinski: Kevin are kind of talking about the additional things you need to know. So we're we're covering.

Mike Lyon: Yeah. What, Jackie? What are you gonna talk about?

Jackie Lipinski: Oh, well, so that's a fun fun!

Jackie Lipinski: thing up for debate. I have an agenda, but what I love is that I listen, and I've sent surveys of what do you need to know? Because I have about 3 things. We have the marketing action plan talking about inventory homes. We have budgeting. Make sure you know your budget, but not just your budget, but also how to move forward. And then we have a few other things that we could just dive deeper into and I know, Beth one. I don't know if you want to talk about your topic.

Mike Lyon: Yeah, Beth, what are you gonna talk about?

Beth Russell: I'm talking about the algorithm. So

Beth Russell: everyone knows that my favorite thing to do with the algorithm is refer to it as an onion, because ogres are like onions. That is a quote from Shrek, and that is a little preview to what I will be discussing in regards to the algorithm.

Mike Lyon: I love it. Now, Sarah, what are what are you gonna go through when we talk about Google and Meta like.

Mike Lyon: do you really need the people who are pressing the buttons to be on this like, how? How's it going to help them with their role?

Sarah Simmerman: Yeah, it'll 100% help the people that are in the platforms actually pushing the buttons. But it will also help

Sarah Simmerman: leaders, marketing leaders and people that aren't necessarily in there just help understand all the metrics, all the performance metrics, and what's going on behind the scenes that way, they can help manage their team, and actually understand what is going on, and to better communicate that with their leadership. So it will help everybody as well.

Mike Lyon: Don't you find that because I know some people go? I don't want to learn how to do Google ads, but they really do have to know some baseline things, so that when we communicate to them they understand what we need, and vice versa, and

Mike Lyon: changes and adjustments, because we don't want anybody to be in the dark. So we're really encouraging them to know

Mike Lyon: what we do, because that builds that better and tighter relationship right.

Sarah Simmerman: Yeah, we take a look, a lot at the actual metrics that you're going to be looking at, and what actually can be shifted to make the change you need to, for to meet your business goals, your sales, goals, or your lead goals. So we take a look at in depth. Look at that as well as reporting, and then also how to build the ads, and how to have your account structured in a way that's set up correctly best for home builders.

Mike Lyon: Well, I think that's interesting, because we do some things that are counterintuitive to what your Google Rep will tell you to do.

Sarah Simmerman: Okay.

Mike Lyon: And so that helps you kind of defend your position a little bit. If someone comes along and says, Why aren't we, Geo. Fencing or saying random words that

Mike Lyon: don't really mean the same thing that we think they are. Why, why don't we do pmax stuff and so helping them understand what makes sense

Mike Lyon: builders do things different. I love that. And I do love the nerdy side of it. I just want you guys to know.

Beth Russell: You are an audio engineer.

Mike Lyon: I'm an audio engineer and a website builder. And now I'm doing Gpt, so I'm building Gpts.

Mike Lyon: I mean, I'm just doing it all. I'm Gonna edit, this podcast. Watch me, just watch me. This podcast. Will be edited by Mike lion. So, Jackie, when is the next one coming up.

Jackie Lipinski: May 6, 7, 8, th it's gonna be 3 days. And then with when we talked about what we want this to look like, and how can it best support marketers taking a you know, some knowledge bombs from the online Sales Academy and really seeing where their strength is and making sure that education

Jackie Lipinski: isn't just go gone in the air like we. We follow up with you. There's tests you have to prove yourself, and then we have we meet 4 times within those 8 weeks, and then we have 4 pre recorded sessions. And then there are tests. So we're really trying to make sure. There. There's no excuses after you attend this, not to be a well rounded new home marketer.

Jackie Lipinski: so we're excited.

Mike Lyon: Love it all right. Next up the one I've just been. I'm so excited about.

Mike Lyon: I I just it just it makes my heart full. It's full of joy

Mike Lyon: and ex excitement to hear about this new offering. I want to call it Academy because not Academy. Carla. Why don't you tell the world

Mike Lyon: what you have cooking.

Karla Tuten: Thanks, Mike, as you put me on the spot. It's our rise in design.

Mike Lyon: It's like a little creative retreat. It's my secret project.

Mike Lyon: Put you on the spot. What are you talking about? We have notes that we're going off of. We talked about this. And it, guys, is this on the spot?

Mike Lyon: I still feel on the spot. You got this.

Mike Lyon: You're gonna kill it all right. We're gonna restart. Here we go, Carla, take it away.

Karla Tuten: Well, thanks, Mike. I'm working on a little secret project.

Mike Lyon: Oh, this is great! I love it all right. Go, Carla.

Karla Tuten: Yeah. So we have a little secret project that's been under wraps until I revealed it as a side note to Mike. Our little rise in design.

Karla Tuten: It's like a day and a half retreat in Columbus, Ohio. It's in person.

Karla Tuten: Hmm,

Mike Lyon: That's different, because these other ones are virtual. Well, not the summit, but this one's going to be in person, which is great.

Karla Tuten: Yeah, the goal here is well, I think, as we all know, creatives are underserved. But, like the creative, adjacent marketing, adjacent role is underserved. And as more and more builders, we see a need of like having to educate having to.

Karla Tuten: We have a lot more branding going on, a lot more talks about how they look visually brand consistency. So the goal with this is to get in person fuel our creativity, but also bring in outside the industry.

Karla Tuten: and also get some really nitty gritty in the weed stuff, too. That's specific to our niche. So it's very hands on. It's an intensive. There's like a half day intensive. 5 h workshop with Kevin and I, and you get to split up into groups and really work through deeply. Some

Karla Tuten: real world prompts that we see and problems that we have from builders every day. So that's what I'm really excited about.

Mike Lyon: Well, I'm excited because I don't think this has ever been offered anywhere, ever right.

Karla Tuten: No, no, so we had to make it up, and I love it.

Mike Lyon: At least not in home building, I mean. I haven't seen it. So I I was super excited a little behind the scenes.

Mike Lyon: Carla and I.

Mike Lyon: We we sometimes we we butt heads all right, and what we butt heads over is this little term that she's coined, called shadow work.

Mike Lyon: She she does shadow work which sad shadow work and means. I'm not gonna tell Mike so this is ready to go.

Mike Lyon: cause he's so picky and Ocd. And a perfection. So she just like literally threw this out casually at the end of one of our calls. And I'm like she goes something rising design, you know, blah blah, for in the venues I was like, I'm sorry. What is this? And she told me all about? I'm like my mind is blown. This is awesome. This is great. Now, the other thing, Carla, you were like, you're kind of nervous like. Do you think like you think

Mike Lyon: people may not come to this

Mike Lyon: right like you're worried about that, aren't you?

Karla Tuten: Worried. But I'm also it's new, right? We're kind of like in

Karla Tuten: a spot that hasn't been ventured into before.

Mike Lyon: We're going like Star Trek. Right? Go going. What does they? What do they say?

Karla Tuten: Oh, I don't know. I'm not that.

Mike Lyon: It's something like beyond, somewhere beyond, like the front final frontier. I don't know.

Karla Tuten: Something like that.

Mike Lyon: Something like that. Now, Beth, why don't we give her a little bit of encouragement? Do we think people will be excited about this once they see this drop.

Beth Russell: I've already told her that I will pay my own way so that I can go.

Mike Lyon: Go to our own.

Beth Russell: Like this sounds awesome.

Mike Lyon: You don't have to pay full price, I'll give you discount.

Karla Tuten: Yeah, I'll give you a discount. But you know.

Beth Russell: Employee, discount.

Karla Tuten: Everything else is on Mike Lyon's card.

Beth Russell: Yeah.

Mike Lyon: Jackie, what do you think? Would you have loved to do this when you were in the role for American classic.

Jackie Lipinski: I think it's it's 1 of those things that you hear about. And you go finally, like, finally, someone gets me. Finally, there's something that I can really have some good takeaways that not only helps me at my company, but me as a person grow in my role, and and I think that 1st class is really going to

Jackie Lipinski: like same with your Beth, and your leadership, collective, like the 1st class, is really able to discover so many more additional things, and and really set the stage for next year's. So I feel like it would be you're probably going to have more magic this 1st year, because so so much excitement is going to be around it. But yeah, I probably would have attended thanks, thanks for offering that Carla.

Mike Lyon: [email protected]. Send her an email and tell her good job and thank you. When is this? When are you? When.

Jackie Lipinski: Oh, yeah.

Mike Lyon: To Ohio.

Karla Tuten: August 27th and 28.th I'm also doing a presentation on communicating with stakeholders. So if you have input for that, Mike, if you like, how I communicate with you.

Mike Lyon: Yeah, number one. Don't think, do things in the shadows.

Mike Lyon: Thank you.

Mike Lyon: Just kidding is this allowed on the podcast am, I allowed.

Jackie Lipinski: Okay, we're yeah.

Mike Lyon: Am I allowed to? You know, heckle our own team? I don't know.

Karla Tuten: I think it's just. It's.

Beth Russell: We heckle you.

Mike Lyon: Yeah, we're just all you know. We're all great friends.

Jackie Lipinski: I can hear it do right.

Mike Lyon: We're just having a great time over here. Do you convert? All right, Elizabeth? Tell us about the marketing Leadership collective. This is your second year doing this now. So what what is this thing? And how can we get on the list and be a part of the cool kids club.

Beth Russell: Well, speaking of shadow work. It was a shadow work project for a year that we kept a secret.

Mike Lyon: It's kind of like fight club.

Beth Russell: It's kind of yeah. It was totally fight club-esque. But essentially I was very blessed in my career where I received a lot of leadership

Beth Russell: training.

Beth Russell: and I loved it, but I always struggled in part with it, because it was always geared towards sales.

Beth Russell: And so, while I got to attend, I was always having to derive my own takeaways.

Beth Russell: not only from a personal level, but, more importantly, at a professional level, because it was for professional growth, and as many marketers know and struggle with, we're oftentimes kind of in the back, jumping up and down, saying, This is important. Give us a seat at the table. Let us contribute, and similarly to my shrek reference in regards to ogres are like onions. We always like to say that it's like the scene from the Lion King, where everything the light touches is yours.

Beth Russell: Marketing can impact all facets of the organization. So how can we help marketers who are leading a team or not leading a team to not only better themselves professionally and personally.

Beth Russell: but also learn from one another to help grow themselves as leaders within their organization. So that's really where this came from. And what we did originally was bring together a handpicked group of fabulous marketing leaders throughout the nation. We got them together, and we built this from the ground up, and what it has now become is a yearly class

Beth Russell: of marketers coming together, where not only do you collaborate more organically on different topics that are pertinent to what they're going through right now, but also guest speakers.

Beth Russell: people that they admire in the industry people that they want to hear from come in and join us. Mike and Kevin joined us last year, and gave us a little peek behind the curtain, which was really fun.

Beth Russell: And we talk about leadership. We're talking about pouring into ourselves, pouring into others. We talk about struggles with communication to the C-suite, or to peers, etc. And then what's really cool about it is the reason why we call it the collective is because we've created a network of mentors and mentees. So essentially, each class is the mentor group for the next class. And there's a connection that will

Beth Russell: form year after year, and we get together whenever we can throughout the year. So, for example, we'll get together for a dinner

Beth Russell: the summit this year. We got together for dinner at

Beth Russell: Ibs, and it was the most fun night of the week, and I'm not. I mean Jackie and Carla attest to that. Yeah.

Beth Russell: So it's it's pretty fabulous, and it's everything that I wish I would have had.

Mike Lyon: Now listen. This this one and the online Sales Academy leadership edition and the rise in the design is an application.

Mike Lyon: First, st like, you gotta you gotta apply and make sure that this is a good fit

Mike Lyon: So that's a little bit of the velvet rope. But we do want to make sure it's going to be a good, you know, impactful for you, and also that you fit within the audience. But for those of builders out there, or folks who've heard of the builder. 20 groups.

Mike Lyon: It's kind of like a 20 group for marketers and 20 group for online sales leaders or 20 group, for it's like, when you come to these things, you have to bear your soul and share all of your you know

Mike Lyon: things that you may not share to the public. It's like real numbers, real results, real data, real problems and real solutions. So.

Beth Russell: Yeah.

Mike Lyon: It's a pretty awesome. It's a pretty awesome thing.

Beth Russell: And they get to see sign kind of like velvet rope like when we're testing out new tools.

Beth Russell: You convert. We send it to them 1st to try out, which is pretty cool.

Mike Lyon: I like it.

Karla Tuten: Oh, I have a lot of shadow work I could send out to my.

Jackie Lipinski: That's.

Beth Russell: Let's collab.

Mike Lyon: I'm sure of my gloves. Yeah.

Mike Lyon: I hey, Carl, I really appreciate your shadow work.

Karla Tuten: Thank you one day you won't.

Mike Lyon: Know that.

Karla Tuten: One day you'll be like, stop doing this.

Mike Lyon: I want to say that to you in front of the team. All right. So as I as we're talking through this 1st of all I love hearing. You got your guys passion

Mike Lyon: talking through all of these things, and I think that comes through and how we prepare for that content. I also just realized this.

Mike Lyon: The market proof marketing Academy and the online Sales Academy do twice a year.

Mike Lyon: And we got everything else that's like 8 things.

Mike Lyon: Are we like an educt? Are we like a college? I mean, what are we? I didn't. I didn't really realize.

Jackie Lipinski: I. I did get a compliment this week. Wow! Do you? Convert? Is a master class.

Jackie Lipinski: just as a whole.

Mike Lyon: I mean kind of.

Jackie Lipinski: Masterclass.

Mike Lyon: Yeah, like

Mike Lyon: for for the for the price of maybe 3 classes at a community college, you're gonna you can get a Mba and.

Mike Lyon: Home builder, marketing

Mike Lyon: or home Builder online. It's pretty cool. I'm I'm impressed. And I just appreciate. I mean, I don't have to do this stuff. I mean, I get to jump on and talk about it on a podcast but you guys are doing the real work. You're doing the Lord's work. I appreciate you all.

Mike Lyon: It's ex-it's exciting, all right. So

Mike Lyon: who presented the best. Let's rate everybody. We'll, I'm just kidding. We're not gonna do that.

Mike Lyon: What else you guys have to add, we're gonna wrap it up, and then I'll do. I have a little request here at the end for those of you who stayed on to the end of this podcast takeover for market proof marketing.

Mike Lyon: What do you guys have to add anything else that we're missing.

Beth Russell: I think it's just a shout out to all the people that have gone through the academies gone who are going to sign up for rise and design, who have gone through the marketing leadership collective because it really it's only successful because they put their all into it. So you guys are what motivate us to continue to build these types of programs. And we love the feedback. We love the participation. And just thank you for giving your all.

Mike Lyon: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's definitely the vibe. If you feel that at the summit and you feel that at these it's not compulsory

Mike Lyon: like this isn't like when you have to go to defensive driving to get points off your record

Mike Lyon: right? You see, people that are just miserable trying to get through. For no, these are people who want to better themselves and are looking for people and solutions. And you feel that like that vibe is different, both on small engagements like this, or big engagements like the summit. That's what we get from. Everybody is like. I finally found

Mike Lyon: my people, and those relationships follow you. That professional growth follows you. So that's a really good point. I like that a lot. All right.

Mike Lyon: So you stay with us this long. I have a request notice we don't run ads on our podcast right. I might start running ads for Chumba, Casino

Mike Lyon: Chamba Casino. Have you heard? Those are terrible

Mike Lyon: but we don't do that because this is for you like we're here to help you. Not sell you ads. But I do have a request.

Mike Lyon: go out there and subscribe to the podcast.

Mike Lyon: rate the podcast and leave a little review on the podcast I think the last. Time. I was looking on apple reviews.

Mike Lyon: I don't know when the last one was. Maybe Jackie can look that up while I'm doing this, but it was a while ago.

Jackie Lipinski: Was a little bit ago.

Mike Lyon: Yeah, you gotta tell us, if you like this, if what we're doing, and if you are, approve of Carla's shadow work.

Mike Lyon: tell us in the comments tell us in the review.

Beth Russell: Do you like when Mike takes over.

Mike Lyon: Yeah, do you like it or not? Like, maybe go review this one.

Mike Lyon: They sold too much. All they're doing is selling on the podcast

Mike Lyon: also, we have opt online people talking with Jen bark. And I think we should drop those in this feed.

Jackie Lipinski: Hmm.

Mike Lyon: And and say, Hey, by the way, here's a little bonus episode for you guys, I've seen podcasts do that before.

Mike Lyon: But we do we do love the feedback from you guys. You can always send us any questions. Anything else, fun, things that are happening that [email protected].

Mike Lyon: Don't forget to become a member for free

Mike Lyon: on Dyc. All access that is on doucconvert.com.

Mike Lyon: You can watch behind the scenes episodes. You can listen to our podcast before they drop, you can get all that shadow work that you want to get done and see what's happening with Carla, private hangouts, and more. You'll hear it first.st There, register for our newsletter. I'm always surprised how many people are not registered for our Newsletter, where we send all this stuff out to you, free content and more. But thank you so much. And this is a fun. Take over. What do you guys think you like it when we do.

Mike Lyon: You did. Great Mike, I did.

Beth Russell: Appreciate your 10 out of 10.

Mike Lyon: It's been raining out of 10. Okay, good Jackie. How many out of 10? What was I.

Jackie Lipinski: I'll give you. I'll give you 9.

Mike Lyon: I'll take a night, Carla.

Jackie Lipinski: It's a little. It's a little too much.

Karla Tuten: 8.5.

Mike Lyon: And Sarah.

Beth Russell: It's going down, Sarah giving me 7.

Sarah Simmerman: What was that, sir?

Mike Lyon: 7, apparently a 7. Okay.

Jackie Lipinski: She was swayed.

Mike Lyon: Well, I guess that's it. We'll see you guys.

Kevin and Jackie reveal why real preparation means more than feeling ready—it means verifying your tools, processes, and assumptions. They challenge builders to stop reacting to trends and instead double down on differentiation, deliberate marketing, and human connection. Plus: why AI-generated content might begin hurting your SEO, and what billiard balls can teach you about chaos and prediction.

Story Time:

• Jackie jump-starts a stranger’s car… and realizes her own “safety net” (a dead jumper box) was useless.
• Why checking your “mental trunk” matters: skills and tools degrade if you’re not recharging them.
• Kevin dives into why you can’t (and shouldn’t) try to prepare for every emergency
• 🧠 1000Watt Event Takeaway: Why huddling with the herd is the worst marketing move you can make.

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS

Online Sales & Marketing Summit Tickets Now On Sale!

In The News: 

• As Economic Challenges Persist, Your Brand Can Still Innovate
• Google quality raters now assess whether content is AI-generated
• Social media 'most overrated' marketing skill, study finds 

Things We Love - Things We Hate:

• Kevin loves babysitters—especially when you’re sneaking away to Italy for an anniversary trip. Hates the long flights (but admits they’re peaceful without kids!).
• Jackie loves her mini greenhouse, packed with 90 tomato plants, and the pure joy of sharing the food.

Kevin, Julie, and Jackie unpack the difference between shortcut thinking and strategic depth in marketing—from the value of real buyer stories to asking better follow-up questions. They explore how transparency, timing, and self-awareness can shape stronger marketing strategies without leaning on fear or fluff. Plus: AI overload, advisory boards, and what happens when salespeople skip the long game.

Story Time: 

• Julie shares the best interview question she’s heard—and how it changes team culture.

Jackie’s husband donates blood—and the group discusses how builders can build loyalty by closing the feedback loop.

Kevin reflects on the difference between discovering problems vs. solving them once—and why advisory boards must be experiential, not just informational.

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS

Unlock Your Digital Marketing Potential: Master Proven Strategies With The Upgraded Market Proof Marketing Academy!
Final Chance!

Online Sales & Marketing Summit Tickets Now On Sale!

In The News: 

Why "Just" is the Most Dangerous Word in Marketing and Design

Debt Data Rings Alarms

Do Homebuilders Waste Money on Marketing No One Trusts?

Things We Love - Things We Hate:

• Julie hates that Meta keeps tweaking ad settings behind the scenes—expect an update from Sarah Simmerman soon.