In this episode, I am joined by returning guest Michael Shellenberger. We briefly discuss his new book San Fransicko, which, like his best-seller Apocalypse Never, takes a heterodox stance on an issue that progressives feel they champion -- in this case, the drug and homelessness epidemic. We then transition to his past (and future) work in nuclear advocacy.

Shellenberger has paid a toll for challenging orthodoxies within the environmental and nuclear communities, including the loss of many donors to his organization Environmental Progress. At the same time, he has managed to reach and engage broad audiences in a way that most within the environment and energy spheres only dream of.

We dive into the internal politics of nuclear advocacy, even offering a taxonomy of the nuclear advocacy ecosystem. In this taxonomy, Shellenberger self-identifies as a mix of Libertarian and Climate-nuclear, though he is admittedly “lukewarm” on climate.

Dr. Keefer and Shellenberger both worry that the nuclear establishment will “fuck up” its opportunity for another nuclear renaissance. Its attempts to placate the renewable lobby has, among other things, distracted from the value of existing nuclear. Shellenberger would prefer “boring nuclear,” proven designs done over and over, funded with patient capital, "pension fund stuff.”

There are, however, reasons to be hopeful. Shellenberger calls a recent video posted to President Macron's Twitter, which situates nuclear in the context of technological sophistication, hope, and achievement, a “watershed moment in the pro-nuclear movement.” In major news media, pieces have come out about the pronuclear movements in Belgium, Germany, Japan, and elsewhere. It is a moment we need to seize.

Lastly, we touch on Shellenberger’s view of the connection between nuclear energy and nuclear weapons. Moreso than other nuclear advocates, he sees them as connected. This is in fact a major topic in Shellenberger’s next book.

Listen to Michael Shellenberger on Joe Rogan: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5NxzDE5TmviUV8te2eZjMP?si=pka9Kr0bTc2K1gEQMhYc1g

Buy San Fransicko and Apocalypse Never.