"I think it fundamentally comes back to, we want to win. We want to be told we're right. And we don't want to be put in a position where we're being called to lay down our lives for our friends and neighbors." Mike Cosper is perhaps best known for his breakthrough podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. The podcast experienced crossover success, rising up the mainstream podcast charts and being listened to by Christians and non-Christians alike. Having finished the series, Mike has clear eyes about the failures of the white evangelical church, and while race may not have been a major factor in the original podcast, he sees a direct line from white evangelicalism's struggle against racial justice to the kinds of attitudes that lead to the titular disaster of his podcast. In this episode, we ask Mike Cosper why people of color stayed away from churches like Mars Hill, and explore the deeper reasons for the vitriol they're experiencing now.

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