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Ponch and Moose connect with Brent Sadler, a retired U.S. Navy Captain and Senior Fellow at the Heritage Foundation, discussing maritime strategy, U.S.-China relations, and naval power in the Indo-Pacific. 

Sadler reflects on his collaboration with Ponch at PACOM (now INDOPACOM) from 2012-2015, where they shifted from linear, phase-based planning to non-linear, adaptive approaches like complex adaptive systems and a "spectrum of rivalry" to counter China's hybrid threats. 

The conversation covers the ongoing "new Cold War" with China, which Sadler argues began post-Tiananmen Square in 1989 and encompasses economic, diplomatic, informational, and societal warfare rather than just kinetic conflict. Key examples include China's maritime insurgency in the South China Sea, the West Capella incident as a model of "naval statecraft," and historical influences like unrestricted warfare, the 100 Years of Humiliation, and WWII collaborations. Sadler critiques U.S. shipbuilding deficiencies, advocates for reforms like a Naval Act and unmanned systems, and addresses topics such as Force Design 2030, the 2027 Taiwan threat timeline, the Fat Leonard scandal, Panama Canal security, and Tomahawk transfers to Ukraine. He emphasizes non-linear thinking, cultural understanding, and building industrial capacity to deter China, drawing

John R. Boyd's Conceptual Spiral was originally titled No Way Out. In his own words: 

“There is no way out unless we can eliminate the features just cited. Since we don’t know how to do this, we must continue the whirl of reorientation…”

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John Boyd’s Conceptual Spiral was originally titled “No Way Out.” In his words:

“There is no way out unless we can eliminate the features just cited. Since we don’t know how to do this, we must continue the whirl of reorientation…”

Download a complete transcript of Conceptual Spiral for free by clicking here.

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