Out and Back

By Jacob Thomson and Rory LinkletterSports Running

Out and Back episodes

June 14#41 Brady Holmer - High Carb Evidence, Ketone, and How to Actually Sleep Before a Race
Brady Holmer is back for his third appearance, which officially makes him the most tenured guest in Out and Back history. He's a week out from Grandma's Marathon, coming off a stress injury and a training block built around high bike volume, durability workouts, and progression long runs in the Texas heat. The conversation covers a lot of ground: what the research actually says about high carb fueling (and where the evidence gets murky), why the crossover point matters more than oxidation rates, gel selection and why he's cycling between multiple products, a new ketone IQ study showing a 15% boost in EPO production post-exercise, and what Nomeo is actually doing in the body. Then Jacob admits he spent race night at the New York Half taking Advil PM every hour hoping to knock out, and Brady walks through what the research says about sleep before races -- including why trying harder to fall asleep is the worst thing you can do.
ZBiotics: This episode is brought to you by ZBiotics, a pre-alcohol probiotic drink designed to break down the toxic byproduct that builds up in your gut when you drink -- so you can have a good night and still show up for your long run the next morning. Go to zbiotics.com/outandback, use code OUT AND BACK for 15% off your first order. Backed by a 100% money back guarantee.

Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠⁠ Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠

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Brady's training block and Grandma's Marathon prep
Durability workouts: combining bike and run
Heat training in Texas
What the research actually says about high carb fueling
Gel strategy, product lineup, and decoupling fuel from hydration
New ketone IQ study: EPO production and recovery
Nomeo: how it actually works (and what we don't know)
Sleep before a race: why trying harder makes it worse
Recovery modalities: red light, ice bath, and compression boots ranked
Rapid fire: cross training, electrolytes, and pre-race caffeine
1 hr 21 min
June 07 #40 David Roche - The Rules of High Carb Training, How to Train the Gut, Fatigue Resistance, & Training the Pros
David Roche -- ultra marathoner, elite running coach, and what Rory's calling the godfather of the high carb revolution -- joins the Out and Back for episode 40. He started as a running back at Columbia, spent years coaching before ever being competitive himself, and broke the Leadville 100 course record in 2024 (and again in 2025!) largely by stress-testing the same principles he'd been building with his athletes. The conversation covers a lot of ground: how he thinks about carb intake across different race distances, why he separates hydration from fueling, the case for uphill treadmill threshold work, what unites his coaching across trail, road, and ultra, and why he keeps looking to cycling for answers the running world is slow to ask.
David on Instagram
David's Website
Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠⁠ Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠
goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.
Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠ Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠
Kava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at ⁠http://kavahaven.com/outandback⁠ Code: OUTANDBACK15
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1 hr 17 min
May 31#39 Between Reps - Ottawa Marathon Edition
Olympian John Gay, host of the Shakeout Podcast, joins Jacob and Rory one week out from the Ottawa Marathon where John ran 2:14 in his debut and Rory ran 2:09 for third place to close out his spring season. They break down both races, talk conditions, pacing strategy gone wrong, a certain Prime Minister phone call, and a lot more. Also on the docket: the Bolder Boulder DQ situation, Parker Valby's return at Track Fest, Kipchoge's continental tour, the new World Athletics qualifying standards, and the US World Half Marathon team announcement.
Stay connected with John:
The Shakeout Podcast
John on Instagram
Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠ Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK
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⁠SandyBoy Productions

Timestamps
0:00 -- Intro
2:00 -- Ottawa recap, John's debut
8:00 -- Race conditions and why times were slower
14:00 -- Rory's race and the Mark Carney moment
21:00 -- The Prime Minister phone call, play by play
27:00 -- Bolder Boulder: Emad Bashir Mohammed DQ'd
33:00 -- Should Bolder Boulder open the pro field?
38:00 -- Cape Town Marathon and Kipchoge's continental tour
43:00 -- Should the World Marathon Majors expand?
48:00 -- World Athletics qualifying standards
54:00 -- Marathon pacing strategy (and a Chicago horror story)
58:00 -- Parker Valby at Track Fest, Habtom Samuel's NCAA record
1:09:00 -- Connor Mantz named to US World Half team
1:12:00 -- US Women's World Half team situation explained
1:14:00 -- Closing, hats shipped, coaching links
1 hr 13 min
May 24 #38 Vinny Mauri - Untold Stories from a 2:05 Marathon Debut + Training with the Out & Back Boys in Flagstaff soon?
Blue Collar Middle America Hero Vincent Mauri joins the Out & Back podcast from his woodworking shop after working a full days shift at the local running store. We know he's been on about every podcast out there at this point but we got him to tell some new stories and also discuss his future training and racing plans, hiring an agent, and trying to land a shoe deal

goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.
Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK
Kava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at http://kavahaven.com/outandback Code: OUTANDBACK15
ZBiotics: Learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use OUTANDBACK at zbiotics.com/OUTANDBACK

Vinny's Strava

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1 hr 9 min
May 17 #37 Molly Seidel - Marathons to Trails, Western States 100 miler, How to keep running fun
Olympic marathon medalist turned trail runner, Molly Seidel, talks about her path from the roads to the trails. From the pavement to trail races to the high-altitude training that supports her quest for Western States, she shares behind-the-scenes insights you won’t hear anywhere else.
Perfect for marathoners curious about trail running, road runners exploring ultra distances, or endurance athletes seeking fresh perspective—this episode opens a window into the future of multi-disciplinary excellence.

MERCH: https://outandback.shop/

SPONSORS:
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ZBiotics Code: OUTANDBACK for 15% off

1 hr 9 min
May 10 #36 - How to taper for a Marathon and How to Recover After | Shakeout Podcast with John Gay
How to taper for a marathon, How to recover after a marathon & much more, on The Shakeout Podcast with John Gay ahead of his marathon debut.

Kava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at http://kavahaven.com/outandback
Code: OUTANDBACK15

Check out the Meteo Pace App to be prepared for your next race

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Out And Back YouTube
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SandyBoy Productions
48 min
May 03 #35 Between Reps - London Marathon, 2:05 in Ohio, Has the marathon changed forever? Listener Questions!
We try to make sense of the London Marathon, compare it to the Boston Marathon, Talk about the crazy 2:05 in Toledo Ohio and then follow up with some listener questions. Enjoy!

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Jacob’s Coaching Website
SandyBoy Productions

Meteo Pace App
Cure Hydration

1 hr 11 min
April 23 #34 Between Reps - Boston Marathon Reflection after running 2:06 and 2:09, What a weekend!
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SandyBoy Productions

Meteo Pace App
55 min
April 19#33 Ben Rosario - Running Industry Insider, Professional Coach and Founder of NAZ Elite, Race Director, Running Store Owner
We sat down with Ben Rosario to chat about his life in the running world. From owning running stores, founding a professional running team NAZ elite, driving sponsorship into the team with Hoka, owning and running The Marathon Project, his best coaching memories and more. Ben shares his thoughts and opinions on how to make the sport continue to grow and tells us what his blowing his mind about the current current boom.
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Join our newsletter
⁠Join our Strava group⁠
Follow us:
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Out And Back YouTube
⁠Rory’s Strava⁠
⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠
⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠
⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠
Jacob’s Coaching Website
SandyBoy Productions

Check out our former sponor ⁠The Marathon Project⁠ if you want to run fast in December of 2026. Use Code "outandback" for an additional $25 off your registration. Prices go up on May 1st!

Chapters
00:00 The Evolution of Running
14:13 The Marathon Project
25:56 Career Paths in Running
34:24 The Evolution of Running Booms
1 hr 4 min
April 12 #32 Between Reps - Boston Marathon Edition, Deep Dive into our Boston Builds, Will the World Champs Marathon be Successful? How Hard is it to Make Multiple US Olympic Marathon Teams?
See you all at our Boston Shakeout Run!
Saturday April 18th
12:30 PM @ Hatch Memorial Shell
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Jacob’s Coaching Website
SandyBoy Productions
58 min

About Out and Back

From the publisher's feed

Rory Linkletter and Jacob Thomson are professional marathoners chasing fast times and big goals on the roads. Training out of Flagstaff, Arizona, they’ve got plenty of stories from the grind of big…