Phoenix and Flame Podcast

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First aired 11/1/2026

Dr. Kristine Sickels spent 20 years climbing the corporate ladder, rising to senior vice president of marketing for a $2 billion portfolio of household brands. Along the way she noticed a problem she couldn't unsee: in boardrooms and conference rooms, the experts were often women, and they were either softening their point of view or not speaking up at all.

Now a speaker, coach, CEO of Mic Drop Workshop and author of The Clearest Voice in the Room, Kristine helps women speak with power and intention at work. She and Dana talk about the "seven silencers" that keep women quiet, why communication is a power skill and not a soft skill, what Nokia's downfall teaches us about the cost of silence, and practical ways to build the confidence to speak up, starting long before the big meeting.

Watch this episode

https://youtu.be/R4ygVtMmSzE

In this episode

• The seven silencers, from fear of hearing "no" to worrying about being liked, and why "I'm just not good at it" isn't true
• Why it's not about being the loudest voice in the room, but the clearest
• How to kindly name it when you're talked over or someone repeats your idea
• Why silence is one of the biggest hidden costs in an organization, and how leaders can build a culture where every voice is heard
• Practical tools: low-risk speaking reps, the "moose on the table," a risk-vs-benefit check and bullet points that keep you steady when emotions run high

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Dr. Kristine Sickels, former SVP of marketing, CEO of Mic Drop Workshop and author
• (02:12) Why so many women in the boardroom stayed silent or softened their point of view
• (04:33) The seven silencers: fear of a "no," wanting to be liked and "I'm just not good at it"
• (07:45) Executive presence, and why the loudest voice isn't the clearest
• (11:01) Perfectionism, being talked over and how to name it with kindness
• (15:21) Finding the middle ground between silence and overcorrecting
• (18:21) Defining your values: optimism, curiosity and candor
• (21:46) Why communication is a power skill, not a soft skill
• (22:30) The real cost of silence, and what happened at Nokia
• (25:16) How leaders can encourage every voice, and putting the moose on the table
• (28:09) Practical tips for team members: low-risk reps, preparing a point of view and speaking early
• (30:16) Weighing the risk vs. benefit of using your voice
• (31:51) Using bullet points as guardrails when emotions run high
• (35:02) Where to find Dr. Kristine Sickels and The Clearest Voice in the Room

About Dr. Kristine Sickels

Dr. Kristine Sickels is a speaker, coach and author who helps women speak with clarity and confidence at work. She spent 20 years in corporate marketing, rising to senior vice president of marketing for a $2 billion portfolio of household brands including Rubbermaid, Crock-Pot, Calphalon, Mr. Coffee and Oster. She is CEO of Mic Drop Workshop, which helps women get on stage and book paid speaking engagements, and co-founder of C-Sweet, a women-owned consulting firm. She holds a doctorate in business administration from Georgia State University and an MBA from the University of Michigan.

Connect with Kristine on LinkedIn or visit her website. Her book, The Clearest Voice in the Room: How to Speak with Power and Intention at Work, is available on Amazon in print, Kindle and Audible.

Favorite quotes "It's not about being the loudest voice in the room. It's about being the clearest." —Dr. Kristine Sickels "Speaking is a muscle. It is not your identity forever." —Dr. Kristine Sickels "Silence has a real cost in organizations." —Dr. Kristine Sickels Resources mentioned

• The Clearest Voice in the Room: How to Speak with Power and Intention at Work by Dr. Kristine Sickels: Amazon (print, Kindle and Audible)
• Mic Drop Workshop: public speaking training for women
• Dr. Kristine Sickels' website
• Dr. Kristine Sickels on LinkedIn

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Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Ready to find your own voice on stage? Dana's a big fan of Mic Drop Academy, a public speaking and group coaching program built for women. Watch the free webinar, join a workshop, or dive into the bootcamp to build the confidence to speak up and be heard. (These are affiliate links — Dana may earn a commission at no extra cost to you.)

Read the full transcript

Dana Skaggs (00:01) Welcome to Phoenix and Flame. If you are here for the first time, I'm so glad you're here. If you're returning, that's amazing. And we have a fabulous guest with us today, Dr. Kristine Sickels. She spent 20 years climbing the corporate ladder, becoming the senior VP of marketing for a $2 billion portfolio of brands, including. Rubbermaid, Crock-Pot, Calphalon, Mr. Coffee, and Oster. However, along the way, she noticed a problem. She could not unsee. Women's voices were often missing from the rooms where decisions got made. So she spent the second half of her career changing that. Kristine, welcome to Phoenix and Flame.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (01:01) Thanks for having me. So excited to be here. So thank you.

Dana Skaggs (01:05) Well, and guys, you'll find out along the way also that Kristine and I know each other from the Mic Drop Academy, which is an amazing women's public speaking. Well, it's an academy that you go through where you learn all kinds of skills of how to feel more confident and comfortable speaking, whether it's in front of a a PTA group or in front of a boardroom or wherever it must be. And Kristine is one of the wonderful coaches on that. And you'll hear more about that on my mid-roll minute. all kinds of things. Mic drop workshop, boot camp, all kinds of fun stuff. Now, also, Kristine, you you have writing. You're writing and you're speaking and you're coaching, and you help women to speak with clarity and confidence at work. So Tell us start wherever you would like. some of your experiences along the way or, why you decided to dig in when it finally hits you that something, something's not right here. And and you started noticing that.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (02:12) Yeah, well I would say that one, as you mentioned, I was in corporate America for over twenty years, and there were times when I would notice that we would be in a boardroom, a conference room, important meetings, and the experts in the room who oftentime were women weren't speaking up about their ideas or their functional expertise. And they may have some information that would be really helpful to the conversation. And I saw one of two things happening. Either one, they were softening their point of view or maybe translating it or dialing it down a bit versus what they really wanted to say, or they just weren't speaking up at all. And then as I left corporate America and started doing consulting work, and as you mentioned, started working with Mic Drop Workshop, I continued to see the same trend. So many women not using their voice, but yet had so many valuable things to say. And that's where I decided that I wanted to write a book about it. that could be helpful to today's generation, but also the next generation that's coming in behind us to help women think about how to use their voices with power and intention at work.

Dana Skaggs (03:28) I love that so much. And I have experienced the same thing. And I would say the vast majority of the women and men that are listening right now have been in these group scenarios where there are women that they knew from chats around the coffee pot or chats in the hallway, they knew that women had amazing things to share. And then they would go in a team meeting and would look over. And expect her to pipe up and she's either just sitting there like this and they keep looking at her like, are you gonna say your thing, right? Or

Dr. Kristine Sickels (04:03) Yeah.

Dana Skaggs (04:03) she does, but she's very soft-spoken. I'm wondering from your experience and your conversations, why do you feel like this has been the trend where they don't speak up and if they do, it's very soft-spoken. Why is that? And also an a second follow-up question to that is. What are the dynamics in the room? do you notice if it's mostly women in the room, is it the same thing? If it's co ed, is it the same thing? If it's majority of men, is it the same thing? What have you noticed with that?

Dr. Kristine Sickels (04:33) So first, I I identify in my book what I call the seven silencers, which I see are the main reasons that women identify why they don't speak up in meetings. And so I'll talk through some of them. We don't have to go through all of them,

Dana Skaggs (04:49) Fabulous.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (04:49) but one is I'm afraid I'm gonna get a no. I have an idea and I am ready to like bring it to the organization. But I've been observing in other meetings what might what happened. And then all of a sudden if I get a no, it feels like a failure. And so I don't want to speak up. Well, the thing that I would say about that is is that's going to happen, right? as we sit in organizations, we're not always going to get the yes. And I used to think that when I was young in my career, the best presentation I give is when everybody's like, yes, let's do

Dana Skaggs (05:22) Yes.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (05:23) it. We've all we're going to take your idea just as it came. But the best, discussions, the best meetings are the ones where it's actually dialogue and you're getting feedback. And so if you are sitting in rooms where you're always getting a yes or not a lot of feedback, it's probably not a healthy culture because it's just a disengaged group of people. The other thing I hear women say is, well, I want to give everyone the opportunity to speak. And we lead with humility or something that we think is kindness. But yet that keeps us from saying the thing that we want to say and bring into bring to the room. And so, yes, it's great to get other people's opinions and feedback, but don't do that and sacrifice to your own. What else have I seen? Well, I'm afraid I'm gonna be perceived as the B-word if I speak up or I have a contrarian point of view. And sometimes I feel like we're more concerned about being liked than. being the expert. And we can be both for sure. But some of that, and you've heard us talk about this in Mic Drop, some of that concern is so much about how are people going to think about me and perceive me versus, you know, thinking about the content and the value that we're going to add and provide to others. And that that's what's important. And then a last one that I'd say, and then we can go to your second part of your question, I hear a lot of women say, well, I'm just not good at it. But and we know just from stats out there, 75% to 80% of people are afraid of public speaking. And that's not just about speaking on stage. It's in conference rooms, boardrooms. And so we identify, I'm just not good at it. And speaking is a muscle. It is not your identity forever. So we need to get over that. I'm not good at it. And we need to get in the reps. Get in the practice, find those low-risk opportunities that we can do it so that the big opportunities don't feel so, huge and big and high risk. And then we just need to say, I gotta get good at it. Especially in these work environments, we're paid for our opinion, our point of view. And if we don't bring that into the room, we're missing out the opportunity to really add value to the organization. And then to the second part of your conversation of just the dynamics in the room, some of it's what I, just mentioned, but I would also say one of the things that I see is that a lot of times people who seem the most confident, speak the loudest, have the most gravitas, are the ones who are identified as wow, you know, they're a great speaker or They have great professional or executive presence. And you know, we need to emulate that. And that dynamic, I think, is really confusing for a lot of women because I have seen a lot of women get feedback more on that, their executive presence and professional presence rather than their expertise and what they know and the work that they've done. And if you get that type of feedback, I'd be asking, what do you mean? when you say executive presence? Is it being able to communicate in high risk situations? Is it, giving recommendations that might be tough to a client? Or what is it that you really mean when you say executive presence? Give us some meat to actually be able to respond to. because being the loudest voice doesn't mean you're the most clear, doesn't mean you know the most. and I love to say it's not about being the loudest voice in the room. It's about being the clearest, and how can we do that in each situation that

Dana Skaggs (09:13) Mm-hmm. wow, those are fabulous answers. And so such practical ideas and really you can see yourself in each one of these. And as you're talking, I'm I'm wondering, and I'm and I'm I'm imagining males versus females being in a room in in these executive meetings and women trying to represent and and trying to communicate what they know and their wisdom and their experience and their creativity. And I'm thinking in the examples that you gave, and I'm I'm in my mind, I'm just dividing out one of the things like taking a no. It just seems like for some reason, it seems as if the males, and I don't know whether it's practice because you mentioned that before, that sometimes we simply need to practice rather than fatalistically saying, I'm just not good at that. That just not me. Like I I just the other day I was in a conversation with someone and they were talking about me speaking in w in front of groups and that kind of stuff. And they said, Dana, I could never do what you do. And I'm like, You're wrong. You can.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (10:20) Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Dana Skaggs (10:23) It's not a fatalistic thing. Like you said, it's about learning. And I think maybe males have had more opportunities to learn these tasks, these these skills and fall on their face and get back up. But it's like I'm I'm going through my mind thinking, okay, taking a no, you know, putting in input in a team meeting and hearing the no feedback or Feeling like imagine a a male feeling this pressure, this compulsion to be kind. You don't see that a tremendous amount, maybe, or or this this compulsion to feel I have to be liked. You don't

Dr. Kristine Sickels (10:57) Yes, yeah.

Dana Skaggs (10:57) you don't see that. What what is what has been your experience with that?

Dr. Kristine Sickels (11:01) Yeah, well, there are differences, right, between male and female and how we show up. And there's a lot of research that's been done on just confidence in general and our own expertise. And, you know, women, we tend to wanna have things exactly a hundred percent right before we present, versus, you know, our male counterpoints counterparts might be okay with Knowing 80% of the information and then talking about it. And so I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves many times to be perfect or know exactly all the answers. But there is a different dynamic for sure. And one of the things that I would recommend that any woman does in a room, because beyond what you've just mentioned and what we talked about. know, we've all seen times when women have been talked over by men in certain situations, and I think sometimes it just happens like even unbeknownst to the man who's doing it, or we've seen a woman give an idea or a point of view and not really get a lot of feedback, and then the man says it and people are like, great idea. When

Dana Skaggs (12:11) Big

Dr. Kristine Sickels (12:11) we see those things. We need to name them and bring them up. So if a man starts talking over to me, there's a kind way to say, thank you, Joe, for speaking up. Can I please finish my point? I'd like to finish that and then I'll hand over to you for anything else that you'd like to add, rather than letting it slip by in the room. And a lot of times, a man would absolutely appreciate that that because they may not even know that they're doing it. it just may come naturally to be talking out loud and thinking out loud. Or when that idea that you mentioned has already been said, again, saying, Thank you, Joe, for reiterating what I just mentioned a few minutes ago.

Dana Skaggs (12:54) I love it.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (12:55) I love that. And you know, appreciate highlighting what I just said. And it's not about being sarcastic or unkind, but it is naming what's happening out there because I found and I recently did some consulting work and I saw this happening men talking over women in a in a training and Finally they just shut down. the women just were like, okay, I've been talked over so many times, I'm not gonna speak. And I went to the executive in the room, it was his team and said, Hey, this is a problem, that you're observing. And he said, just quite honestly, thank you for bringing this up. I did not realize it in the moment, but now that I reflect and you brought it out up to me, you're right. That was happening. And it's something now that I will pay more attention to. And so I think a lot of times things happen, you know, we can't always assume that it's it's purposeful. And if we just take the time to name what's happening and Our male counterparts want us to succeed as well. Like in just naming some of those things, I think it can be really helpful and it helps people become aware of what's happening in those situations.

Dana Skaggs (14:14) And I love the perspective that you're presenting of assuming the positive. Instead of

Dr. Kristine Sickels (14:19) A hundred percent.

Dana Skaggs (14:20) assuming some malicious intent, assume that our male counterparts do want us to succeed, but

Dr. Kristine Sickels (14:28) Yeah.

Dana Skaggs (14:28) they're not aware. Let's just since we don't know for sure because we can't read their mind. So we're

Dr. Kristine Sickels (14:33) Yes.

Dana Skaggs (14:33) basically making shit up, right? We're creating we're creating a narrative. So as long as we're creating a narrative about what our male counterparts are thinking, let's create something positive that

Dr. Kristine Sickels (14:43) Yes.

Dana Skaggs (14:44) They're not they don't realize what they're it opens kinda, Kristine, it makes me think of I talked to somebody one time who was Italian and he talked about what it was like at the dinner table. And he had several siblings. And he says, We're all s we're all grabbing and yelling and screaming

Dr. Kristine Sickels (14:59) Okay.

Dana Skaggs (15:00) and if you want to be part of the conversation, you've got to jump in there, you've got to talk, you've got to yell, you've got to grab your

Dr. Kristine Sickels (15:05) Yeah. Yeah.

Dana Skaggs (15:07) food, you know. You can't just sit there and wait for someone to give you the space. You've got to jump in and grab it. So I think sometimes That's what men are used to. And they're like you said, not any kind of ill intent, but just

Dr. Kristine Sickels (15:20) Yes.

Dana Skaggs (15:21) they're jumping in like they're used to jumping in and they're expecting the females to do that as well. And I wanted to point out one other thing that you said that I think is fabulous because I also think about when because I, you know, I'm a the queen of boundaries, you know, that's my that's my thing. I love it

Dr. Kristine Sickels (15:36) Yes, yeah.

Dana Skaggs (15:38) and my passion. And one of the things that is similar that people do. For example, when they're not used to setting boundaries at all, they go sometimes from absolute nothing to way, way too far in the other extreme where they're screaming no at everybody.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (15:53) Yes.

Dana Skaggs (15:54) And what I'm hearing you say is in these meetings, it's much better, you know, you because you want to be professional, you want to assume the positive that rather than just going either screaming out and being perceived as the B-word, or just Shutting down altogether, those are the two extremes. What I'm hearing you say is you're helping women to find that middle ground. You're giving

Dr. Kristine Sickels (16:18) Yes, yeah.

Dana Skaggs (16:19) them tools, you're giving them words, you're giving them phrases to say, mindsets to adopt, so that they can inhabit that middle ground and not be on either extreme.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (16:29) And it really is, Dana, about naming it. When we observe some of these things happening, to just name it with kindness. You don't it's your point. You don't have to be angry. You don't have to assume that people did something on purpose, interrupt you, etc. if it happens again and again, that's a different story, but when we're first, observing some of these things, just to name it and call it out and try to redirect the conversation. And you can do that with a lot of kindness and care, but candor.

Dana Skaggs (17:03) Yeah, candor. And see, that's that's something else that 'cause some of the things that you're saying overlaps with how I teach boundaries about my yard, and then there's a property line, and then my neighbor's yard. And so when in our yard is our thoughts, feelings, and actions, and then our neighbor's yard are their thoughts, feelings, and actions. And there's a property line between the two. And so when we when we give ourselves, we validate our own opinions. then we can be we can have candor, we can have truth, we can be direct. And also not owning our neighbor's opinion. Because for example, if someone, if a female is direct, I've been in these situations myself. I have a rather direct personality. And sometimes someone might decide to perceive me as, you know, some kind of way. And and not, you know, and that's not that's not on me. And I think that That's another thing that the the women in these situations can really adhere to and adopt, that their opinions matter and to present those in a very direct way, knowing that sometimes someone might decide to perceive you as to this or to that.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (18:21) Yeah. And one of the things that I recommend I talk about in the book is before we even talk about communicating and when is the right time to speak up and what what are the you know ways that you can speak into things. And I know you do a lot of this work as well. I believe the foundation to great communication and using your voice is to actually first define your values. and understand what do you want to be known for as a leader, as a person, as a thought leader, whatever it may be, and to go through that work and then also communicate it to your team, to your colleagues, to people that you work with every day. So for me, I did that work quite some time ago. And I identify three values that are important to me as a leader, but then I share with my team and others how does that then influence my communication style and how I use my voice? And so the three for me are optimism. Part of that is because I'm a marketer by trade, but what does that mean when I communicate? You're gonna hear me want to know what's possible rather than why can't we? And so that's how I love to have a conversation when it's rooted in optimism, let's talk about what's possible, what needs to be true in order to make this idea come to life or make this recommendation versus listing all the things of why we can't. The second thing for me, and this is for me, is curiosity. And I just believe as a leader, no matter how long we've been in an industry, we need to ask questions, we need to be students of our field. And so I tell people, you're gonna hear me ask a lot of questions. And when you have a senior title, a lot of times people think, well, that's challenges. she doesn't believe me, or she's asking these questions because she's like diving in and trying to gotcha. And I just say, You're going to hear me ask a lot of questions because I'm curious, and it's actually me just trying to learn. It's not me making a judgment call. But people wouldn't know that if I said that you know, ahead of time. And then lastly, I have decided that candor is something that I want to lean into. I know 50% of the people probably love it, and 50% of the people in the room do not, but I've made a decision that I believe. Candor is care. I want people to know where I stand. And so I just tell people, you are gonna hear me have an a point of view. Good, bad, great, gotta work on it. And we're gonna do it though in context of the project or the idea, not about you, you know, as the individual. Now All of your listeners may have a whole different set of values, but I would be spending the time thinking about what those values are and how they then influence your communication style because that's when you can show up using your voice authentically.

Dana Skaggs (21:17) I like that. Just knowing what your stance is before you before you begin. Now, I do know that we've heard people call communication one of the soft skills. I would really like to hear your thoughts on on that. Like you you say it's not a soft skill and and talk about why you think it's you're challenging this idea that communication is one of the softer skills.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (21:46) Well, a couple of reasons. One, I I actually believe communication is a power skill. I I don't think it's a soft skill at all. And especially if we think about what's happening in the world of AI and so many people are are using AI to communicate. and we can see it, right? Like we know when people are using it or not. The people who are going to rise above and be really successful in this world of AI are people who know how to communicate outside of it, right? And have a strong

Dana Skaggs (22:14) Yes.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (22:15) point of view and a voice and all of those things. But I would also say organizationally, why I think it is so important for leaders to build a culture of voices being heard is I believe. That silence or someone not speaking up is one of the biggest costs or line item on our PL that we can actually put a number to. What do I mean when I say that? Well, one, if you have a great idea, but you just feel like over time I'm not gonna keep bringing it up because I haven't been listened to, whatever, that could have Driven revenue for the organization. You've identified a risk that's gonna cost the organization something, but you don't bring it up because you don't feel comfortable speaking. Silence has a real cost in organizations. There's a lot of case studies around this. One of my favorite is Nokia. That used to be the number one market share phone. And I don't know if your listeners know that or not, depending on the demographic, it was the number one market share phone before Apple came out. And They had a culture though that the C-suite did not really want to hear the real news and what was going on. And they just decided, even when Apple came out with the first iPhone, we've got it, we're fine. But middle management knew that it was a problem and that they needed new innovation and that they needed to focus on taking cost out of the product, et cetera. And because they did not use their voices, does anyone have a Nokia phone anymore? Yeah. And so

Dana Skaggs (23:53) There might be some people listening going, Nokia, what?

Dr. Kristine Sickels (23:57) what? exactly. And that's a beautiful case study. You can read more about it where the culture of not encouraging people to use their voices was a big, big component to why they lost market share and did not develop new products to go after the iPhone.

Dana Skaggs (24:18) Hmm. Wow. What an amazing example. So I'm thinking about this dynamic that you're describing, and I'm thinking f twofold, one from the team member standpoint and one from the team lead. So what are some practical exercises or or practical behavior patterns that you would suggest for someone on either side, for the manager side that they could do to encourage communication? And what about if you're on the other side? If you're a you're a team member, you're not a manager, you're a team member. What is something that you would suggest for them to do if they are one of these people that just feels like their throat is gripped and they just can't quite speak? They haven't been able to so far in these situations, but they have a comment, they have an observation that obviously people that were at worked at Nokia had, but they didn't speak. So what what are some suggestions you would have for people on both sides of that?

Dr. Kristine Sickels (25:16) Yeah. Well, on the leadership side, you're exactly right. We have to encourage a culture of communication. And there are small things that I think any leader, business owner, C-suite can do, which is one, ensuring that they're not the one always talking and that they encourage other voices to be heard. And so they are doing the round robin around the table, or if they notice, because many times if we have something to say, you're gonna see it on our face, even if we don't say anything. So if you are an observant leader to actually say, Dana, I see that you it seems like you have something that you want to add to this and just allow that space to happen. I also believe that I there's a leader that I love that I've worked with before. I talk about her in my book. she has this little small practical thing that she does, but it's very disarming. And she's calls it put the moose on the table. And she has a moose, like a stuffed moose that she brings to every meeting. And she tells people, if you have something that you want to say, but you feel a little nervous about it, or you feel like it might be controversial, or other people may not agree, grab the moose. And say, I would like to put the moose on the table so that everyone knows how you're feeling before you actually speak into it.

Dana Skaggs (26:48) wow.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (26:49) And it's a beautiful, disarming thing. It's silly. you're picking, it's yeah,

Dana Skaggs (26:53) It's funny. Yeah.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (26:54) you're picking up the stuffed moose. But now, no matter who you are, you feel comfortable that I've given you a forum or a tool or a way. To actually use my voice, but I am also telling you, this is risky. I'm being vulnerable. I'm taking a risk here. And I love

Dana Skaggs (27:12) I love that.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (27:13) that idea. You everybody could take that and do something different and make it their own, but it's a beautiful way to just tell people that I want to hear from you. And if it feels scary, you know, pick up the moose and everyone will know. I love it.

Dana Skaggs (27:26) wow. That is amazing. that could be used in a lot of scenarios.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (27:31) Absolutely. And it's simple, right?

Dana Skaggs (27:34) So if you were a team member, let's say there wasn't a a moose option, or

Dr. Kristine Sickels (27:38) Yes.

Dana Skaggs (27:39) if you're a team member, maybe you could suggest that to your, you know, your team lead. But if you are a team member sitting in there and you have a propensity to get silent and have, you know, have some some trouble having enough confidence to speak and to take that risk to lean go out. And intend to gear down and be silent. What would you what is one or two practical suggestions you would s give them if they're listening right now?

Dr. Kristine Sickels (28:09) don't just wait for that meeting. And that's what I do think makes it scary sometimes is we're thinking about the boardroom, the conference room, these meetings that we're going into, and that that's where we're gonna get our speaking reps or our confidence to speak up. And I would say start way before that. find low-risk situations where you can use your voice and that it's not going to be controversial. There's no reason to silence yourself. So what could that be? I am interacting with one of my colleagues. I see they did a fantastic job on a body of work. How many times do we actually forget to compliment someone like on the work that they've done?

Dana Skaggs (28:49) That's huge.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (28:51) And it's so Easy. So what if we just take that jump and that leap to say, Dana, You did a fantastic job on the project. Let me tell you a few things I love about it. That even may feel scary, but then I get it out, and you love hearing great feedback and you're so appreciative. And so then I get a little bit more confident about speaking into things. So just find those low-risk situations. Like I even would say when you're on planes or on trains or in a standing in a line, we have stopped talking to people. We have our heads down and

Dana Skaggs (29:26) that's huge.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (29:27) Our phone

Dana Skaggs (29:27) My gosh.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (29:28) and just to have some daily dialogue about the magazine cover or the bad airport food or whatever it may be, like it just gets you comfortable like talking to people. Now, when we do get in those meetings, two things that I would consider one, any meeting that you go into, be prepared with a point of view about what Outcome do you want for yourself in that meeting? Is there something that you know needs to be said and identify that before you ever walk in the room? And when you then are in the room, I would recommend to think through how do I get that out early in the meeting instead of like holding on to it and then maybe I'll say it at the end or maybe I'll say it in the last five minutes, and then we just let the time go by. Get it out, get it out early. It'll feel so much better. It's gonna feel risky. I get it, but let's get it out. But know ahead of time specifically what you sp wanna speak into. If you're prepared for the topic, that's gonna help you so much. And I would also say whether you decide to speak into something or not, I would be looking and I have this little framework in my book that's the exactly what you're saying. Like, what's the risk versus benefit of using my voice? And if the risk is high, but there's not a big benefit for the organization or the team of what I'm gonna say, maybe I don't say anything. If the risk is high, but the benefit is high, like take that risk, right? And then low and the benefit, exactly. Grab the moose.

Dana Skaggs (30:58) Grab the moose.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (31:02) If the risk is low, but the benefit is high, like. speak into it. And you can even name that. hey, I know you I'm naming the moose. This might be controversial, but I have a differing point of view. And but here's the value that I think it's going to have for the organization. So I'd be doing some of that mental math in my head. Because to your point, you don't need to speak in to everything. But you do need to make a decision on where you know your voice is going to matter. And to me that's all about the value that it's going to add to the team. to the organization, to the culture, to the results of the company. And that's what we're paid for when we're sitting in companies. we are paid for our knowledge. And if we don't speak into it, we're actually not doing our job.

Dana Skaggs (31:51) That's an excellent point. And as you're talking, I'm thinking of something that that I've done and I've recommended to other people, not necessarily in a work environment, but it definitely as you're talking, I'm I'm thinking it it could work here, could help here, is that when we get very emotional or when our emotions get higher, our ability to be logical begins to decline. They are inverse. And so sometimes it I've done this myself. I'm I create little bullet points. If I'm go if I know I'm gonna go into a scenario and I think there's a possibility I'm gonna get jacked up emotionally, if I'm gonna be afraid, if I'm gonna be scared, if I'm gonna be anxious, fill in the blank. Because as high our emotions go up, our ability to think logically and rationally start to decline. And then what happens if we don't have a bullet point list that we prepared ahead of time? We're sitting in the meeting and we know we want to say something and we know it's important, but our brain starts scrambling. It starts going and starts short circuiting. And then we

Dr. Kristine Sickels (32:48) Yeah, yeah, yes.

Dana Skaggs (32:52) don't feel comfortable speaking because we feel like we're gonna sound like an idiot. And so

Dr. Kristine Sickels (32:56) Yeah, yeah.

Dana Skaggs (32:57) it's like having some kind of like just really quick bullet points that keep you kind of like give you guardrails. So that when you if you are feeling emotional, if you are feeling upset or scared or whatever, that's okay. You've got your bullet points. you don't have

Dr. Kristine Sickels (33:12) Yeah. I love

Dana Skaggs (33:13) to it's just so many times I've been in those scenarios. I'm thinking, I know I want to say something, I know it's important. I remember going through all of this when I was sitting calmly by myself at my desk, but now I'm in this room when I need to say it, but my brain is short circuiting because of all of the emotions.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (33:31) Love that. And I think two things I would just add to that is I think it's really important to do that because it shows that there's preparation and care that you're coming into the discussion, the meeting, etc. And you know, so many of probably your listeners are just like back. to back to back, in meetings, but how can you find the time, to write those bullet points and really get your thoughts in order? Because if everything's off the cuff to your point, it can be really challenging on what to speak into. And the other reason I love that is we all know what it feels like to walk out of a room and wish we would have said something.

Dana Skaggs (34:14) Yes. worst. If I'm gonna just said it that way,

Dr. Kristine Sickels (34:16) And that's the worst. I wish I would have said that. And I know I

Dana Skaggs (34:22) I know.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (34:24) so having those notes is really helpful because then you have a point of view of what you want to say, and then you just gotta do it instead of walking out of room of a room going, I should have said that. Because you can't get the time back.

Dana Skaggs (34:36) I know. And you don't have to have that awful fit. No, you can. You can't reverse the time. Now, Kristine, I feel like we could talk quite a bit longer about this very important topic, but we've run out of time for today. I want to make sure

Dr. Kristine Sickels (34:47) Yes.

Dana Skaggs (34:47) that the listeners and the viewers are able to access you and your book. So talk more about that. You the title of your book and what it's about and how they can get it, where they can buy it and how they can get access to you.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (35:02) So the book is called The Clearest Voice in the Room: How to Speak with Power and Intention at Work. And you can find it on Amazon, whether that's in book form, audible, or digital, you can do any of those versions. And it's a great tool for anyone who wants to just think about how to speak at work. You can also find me at drchinespeaks.com. And what I love about the book, I do want to just say one little accolade that I'm proud of is it was just

Dana Skaggs (35:33) Yes.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (35:34) rated number one by Forbes for anyone who wants to be a powerful communicator. And I really appreciate that because my goal is to get this book in as many women's hands and our male allies as well, and really understand how we can use our voices at work. And then as you mentioned, Dana, if you're interested in being a public speaker, find us at micdropworkshop.com. We're passionate about getting women on stages and having your story help you make an impact and an income.

Dana Skaggs (36:07) that is fabulous. And I'm so proud of the the Forbes. that's so exciting. And guys, it's also gonna all this is gonna be in the show notes too. We'll have you the quick link you can do just right from the show notes to be able to buy this fabulous book of of Kristine's. Thank you so much, Kristine, for giving us your time and your wisdom and your experience and sharing with us some of your your thoughts and your solutions for very real situations that we women that we face.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (36:37) Appreciate you, love being here and we could sat forever.

Dana Skaggs (36:40) All right, listeners, viewers, I know that you have heard numerous things today from Kristine, and you're thinking, I have a friend, I have a coworker, I have a family member that absolutely needs to hear what Kristine is saying. Take this podcast episode, copy and paste the link, send it in text, send it in email, post it on your favorite social media sites so we can grow. Our Phoenix and Flame community and let people know you are not alone. I hope your day has been fabulous. I hope the rest of your day is great. I'm Dana on Phoenix and Flame.

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First aired 10/25/2026

Rev. Jocelyn Jones spent a decade leading a church youth nonprofit before a "holy discontent" pushed her to build a ministry beyond the four walls of the church. What began as a weekly blog about how God helps people heal from trauma grew into a national Christian trauma healing ministry, and eventually a coaching practice for women who want to turn their calling into a sustainable business.

But behind the scenes, Jocelyn was carrying wounds of her own. She opens up about running from sexual trauma by pouring herself into ministry work, and about finding herself in an abusive marriage while helping others heal. Dana and Jocelyn talk about how to know when God is calling you somewhere new, how to recognize abuse that isn't physical, why boundaries threaten people who seek control, and why faith-driven women need to charge their worth.

Watch this episode

[https://youtu.be/B7PxWjyL1Kc]

In this episode

• How to recognize "holy discontent" and three questions to help you discern your calling
• Why you can have Jesus and a therapist, and how faith and mental health work together
• The many forms of abuse (spiritual, emotional, financial and more) and why talking discreetly to someone trained is a safe first step
• How boundaries protect you, and Dana's yard analogy for knowing what is and isn't yours to carry
• Ministry and money: building a sustainable kingdom business without giving everything away for free

Timestamps

• (00:40) Welcome and guest intro: meet Rev. Jocelyn Jones, speaker, two-time best-selling author and Christian business coach
• (02:06) From church youth center director to building ministry beyond the walls of the church
• (03:07) How a blog, Faith Fridays and Zoom trauma healing groups grew into a national ministry
• (06:52) Holy discontent: three questions to discern whether God is calling you somewhere new
• (10:58) Running from trauma through ministry, and why you can have Jesus and a therapist
• (13:13) Helping others heal while living in an abusive marriage
• (17:58) Recognizing abuse that isn't physical, and why to talk to someone trained
• (23:17) Saying no, backing down and the signs of emotional abuse
• (27:15) Dana's yard analogy for understanding boundaries
• (30:03) Why couples counseling can be risky in abusive relationships
• (31:48) Ministry and money: building a sustainable kingdom business
• (33:38) Why women need to charge their worth
• (36:45) Where to find Rev. Jocelyn Jones, her books and her free Ministry Launch Starter Kit

About Rev. Jocelyn Jones

Rev. Jocelyn Jones is a speaker, two-time best-selling author and Christian business coach who helps purpose-driven women turn their calling into sustainable, impactful businesses. She holds a master's in social work and a master's in theology, and is the founder of Faith on the Journey, a Christian trauma healing ministry offering Christ-centered healing groups, church retreats and resources. Drawing on her own story as a survivor of sexual trauma and domestic violence, she speaks boldly about healing, faith and the truth that abuse is not God.

Connect with Rev. Jocelyn on Instagram or LinkedIn, or visit RevJocelyn.com. Her books, Sister, Start Your Ministry and Breaking the Power of the Mask, are available at [where to buy], and women ready to build a ministry beyond the walls of the church can grab her free Ministry Launch Starter Kit on her website.

Favorite quotes "You can have Jesus and a therapist." —Rev. Jocelyn Jones "Abuse is not God." —Rev. Jocelyn Jones "Charge your worth, charge your value." —Rev. Jocelyn Jones Resources mentioned

• Sister, Start Your Ministry by Rev. Jocelyn Jones
• Breaking the Power of the Mask by Rev. Jocelyn Jones
• Free Ministry Launch Starter Kit: at RevJocelyn.com
• National Domestic Violence Hotline: call 1-800-799-7233 or text START to 88788
• Rev. Jocelyn Jones on Instagram: @REVJOCELYN
• Rev. Jocelyn Jones on LinkedIn:

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Read the full transcript

Dana Skaggs (00:40) Welcome friends. Whether you're out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it's wonderful to connect with you. Joining us today is Reverend Jocelyn Jones. Reverend Jocelyn Jones is a speaker, two-time best-selling author, and Christian business coach who helps purpose-driven women turn their calling into sustainable, impactful businesses. Reverend Jocelyn, welcome to Phoenix and Flame.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (01:18) Thank you so much for having me. it's a joy.

Dana Skaggs (01:21) This is gonna be fun. This is gonna be fun. So gosh, where do I even begin? You later on in your bio, you talk about helping women gain clarity, build structure. it just goes on and on. I've got all kinds of questions, but let me back away and give you some space to just tell us a little bit about yourself. And you can start wherever you would like. Some people really like stories from the very beginning that that really are impactful to them. Some people want to start later, but wherever you start, we'll end up weaving wherever we need to weave in the conversation. So what tell us a little bit about you and why why this interest? How did you get to this place?

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (02:06) Thank you, Dana. Well, I I tell you, it's been quite the journey. And for me, I have been working in full-time ministry since the age of 23. And I was offered an opportunity to work at my church at the nonprofit youth center, and I became the executive director there. For about 10 years, I served diligently, and it was very rewarding work. But have you ever had that time in your life where even though what you were doing was rewarding? You knew you were in the right season at some point, but you knew that season was coming to an end. And I felt like God was calling me to more. I felt like God was calling me to build something beyond the walls of the church that was ministry, but it looked different. And I didn't quite know how that looked. But over time I I prayed, I fasted, went to seminary school trying to find myself and eventually I I made the decision to step out of The box, if you will, and start my ministry that we're gonna talk about today. And it started off as a blog, me writing stories about how God helped people to heal from trauma. And I published that weekly on Fridays, calling it Faith Fridays. And then over time I started writing books and podcasts. But what really was a life-changing moment for me, someone invited me to a Christian trauma healing group. It was a Bible study that included mental health. Health principles to help people heal from trauma. And it was in March of 2020, right at the beginning

Dana Skaggs (03:42) Mm.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (03:43) of COVID. You know exactly what was happening then. And

Dana Skaggs (03:45) Mm-hmm.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (03:47) I have a background in social work. I have my MSW and my master's in theology. And when I saw this curriculum, I was like, this is amazing. This combines both my loves. And I started doing that on Zoom because we were all locked down. But because I started doing these regularly on Zoom, that allowed for me to connect with people across the country who were looking for healing, who wanted connection. And that over time allowed for me to grow my ministry from that blog to national Christian trauma healing business over the last several years. And from that, that's when I connected with other women who wanted to learn how to start their faith-based ministry in business. And that's when that second arm began of me supporting other women.

Dana Skaggs (04:30) I love this so much. And I already have so many questions for you. And and before I have several already written down, but before I get to those, as you were just describing this, I'm thinking of a lot of people that are that are in church. I I grew up in church myself and I'm a Christian. it's I don't know, it seems easier for people sometimes when they're following the status quo. When they're following the path that seems to be the vanilla path, which is not the path I've taken, by the way. but I'm not a vanilla gal, but it just seems like it's easier sometimes, it seems easier when people are following the path that everyone seems to be doing and that everyone seems to expect them to do too. And when God calls you to take the exit, to go somewhere else, I think of for example, like Jonah. he didn't want to go to Nineveh. He's like, I ain't going to Nineveh, no way. Uh-uh, I'm doing that. But we saw, we know how that ends. And so my question to you is, for someone right now who is maybe working at a church or or going to church, but they feel how how do they know if if they if their path is my is leading somewhere else? Because maybe they're maybe the spirit is prompting them with something, but they're like, ooh, I don't know. I don't know. I think I should just keep coming and doing the same thing and and follow what everyone else is doing. Cause that seems that's what in it's what's in front of me. It's what everyone else is doing. I the thought about going over here or going over there is a little scary. if someone is in that space right now and they're listening to you, what words of advice, what words of wisdom, what words of experience would you share that would help them possibly navigate those waters when they might be feeling God calling them to do something that's not the run-of-the-mill vanilla path?

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (06:50) Hmm, great question. First thing I would say is that it's important that we pay attention to when the Holy Spirit is nudging us. And one of the the ways I describe it is a holy discontent. It's like it's it's one of those things where it's it's continuing to show up. And it's like I it's not something where y something's wrong, but you just know that some is more. And it keeps like there's breadcrumb moments. for some it might be like continuing to just hear whether it's through God using people or God continuing to put it in your spirit that you're meant to write a book or you see certain things on the the news and you're just you're outraged about something that you see about a domestic violence survivor or something happening in your community and it's discontent around you feel like I want to do something around it and it won't leave you. Those are signs. That you should explore. when I'm talking to sisters and supporting them in their discernment phase, because this is really what we're talking about here, I invite them to reflect on three things. First, I invite them to ask themselves: what caused burden to you? What is a cause that truly, when you see it, you're like, man, I I want to make a change. I I'm I'm sick and tired of seeing people struggle in my community. I hate hearing stories about this, whatever that is, is a cause that burdens you. Pay attention to that because that might be a sign that you are, called to. Another thing that I invite people to reflect on is what gifts has God given you that could be a service to this world? That can meet some type of need, right? That you're passionate about. Exploring those gifts is something that can really help you to see, man, my ministry doesn't have to be just used here. It could be used in other places. These gifts can actually make a difference in my neighborhood or in the nation. The other thing that I always like to invite people to explore is who's your tribe? Who are the people who you are drawn to? Are they drawn? To you. And it might be the younger version of yourself. I think we're perfectly suited sometimes to help the younger version of ourselves with all the wisdom that we get from our mistakes.

Dana Skaggs (09:24) Yeah.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (09:27) And from there, I just believe that none of us, when it comes to at least ministry, is not confined to the four walls of the church. And so just take taking it out of the box and being open to where God is leading you. And even if you're afraid, even if you don't have it all right, just making steps forward. You'll find that God will show you your next step and it'll be quite fulfilling.

Dana Skaggs (09:54) I love that. speaking of needs, you said to notice, what bothers you? What needs do you see in your world and your community that really just sticks in your crawl and you just can't quite let it go. As I was reading your bio, I I found myself wondering what needs that you saw along the way that caused you to want to create this business. Because let me tell you, I know being an entrepreneur is Freaking hard. it's it's scary.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (10:25) Girl.

Dana Skaggs (10:27) It's like jumping off a cliff and trying to figure the parachute out on the way down. And, talk about a journey of faith. And so I'm wondering it for you, what need did you see in the women, in whether it was in the in your community, in the world or whatever, that gave you the drive and the motivation to create. This business that you've created.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (10:55) Mm, I'm going to Be very vulnerable with you when it comes to that question. Because if you recall my answer a little earlier, I was saying helping the younger version of yourself. That was absolutely my motivation. Having experienced sexual trauma in my early 20s, one of the things that I did to run from my trauma was throw myself into ministry and work and work and work. And that was my addiction of choice. And it was celebrated because it was like, she's so dedicated. She's so, passionate. But I was running for my pain and it was showing up in my relationships. I was, showing up in how I led as a leader of the nonprofit, and it was messing things up. And finally, I had to come to the realization, girl, you got you need some therapy. You need to do some work. Yes, you got Jesus, but you can have Jesus and a therapist. And I had to I had to do the work and start doing the work. And I continue to do the work. My therapist on speed dial now. And and for me, when I first started my my ministry, which is called Faith on the Journey, when I first started it as that blog, when I was writing those stories about how God helped people to heal from trauma. I was really interviewing them for myself. I wanted to hear, how did how did you go through this healing journey? Cause I'm still trying to heal. So as I was interviewing people for the blog, as I was interviewing over a hundred people on my podcast about the healing process, their stories was helping me to heal. And and so in that process of doing that, the the the interviews, going to therapy and And really trying to walk out the healing for myself, I wanted to be able to show people the same that yes, our faith is is is core at our center, but I believe that mental health practices too are very important. God uses people like therapists like you to help us navigate our journey, and that's important. And so that inspired me to create that. And the the other one other thing I want to share is as while I was building this ministry. And it was really starting to take off. And I was helping people to heal from trauma. I found myself in an abusive marriage. And it was a dichotomy because I was being traumatized behind closed doors while trying to help other people heal from trauma. And I really felt like I was a fraud. And thank God I was able to get out of that that that abusive marriage and I had to really walk out the healing I was teaching others. This was again it was such a test because I had to take time to set aside to care for my own wounds so I wasn't bleeding on other people and do all the work. But that also, now that I'm r removed from the situation, has really put a like a fire.

Dana Skaggs (14:04) Mm-hmm.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (14:05) talk about a flame in in terms of my passion to help people heal from trauma, but also help other domestic violence survivors to get the support they need to know that abuse is not God. And and so I speak very boldly about that from my lived experience.

Dana Skaggs (14:23) my gosh. Okay. So I've got two comments. I'm gonna toss them out. You can do with them whatever you want. one of them is listening to you talk, it reminded me so much of why I started my podcast to begin with. I actually started it in 2020 because I wanted people to know you are not alone. I was having so many people come into my office and they were pouring out all of the stuff. All the pain, all the struggles, all the fears. And they would just say, I just feel like it's I feel like it's just me. I feel like I'm the oddball out. I'm the one that can't get my ish together. No, I can't that I'm the one. But I would know that's not true because I heard those stories every day, day after day after day. But because of confidentiality, I'm not gonna, you can't share that stuff. And so I thought, you know what? If I started a podcast and we would have people come on that was That were willing to share their stories and reach out. Cause that's how I end my podcast is saying, you are not alone. Let people know they're not alone so we can grow the community. So I love that so much. And so my question, I have actually three things, I guess. I made that comment. And then I have a question of, well, I'll wait a minute. I'm flipping, I'm flipping it around. I'm gonna leave the question till last. I'm gonna make a second comment about. the marriage and sometimes scripture can be y can be weaponized in marriages. And we both know this. We both exp and heard the stories, all the things. And I and shout out to my to my cousin Jill. She listens to my podcast regularly. She's supported me along the way and been a big, a big supporter. And she went through something really bad with with a husband who did that. And That was just, I'm not speaking out of turn. Everyone, everyone in in the community, was aware of of that kind of thing going on. And that's you get stuck because if somebody doesn't have a safe place that they can turn to and and they have someone quoting them scripture that, but but they're bastardizing it. It's n they're weaponizing it, they're bastardizing the scripture and they're they're cherry picking. So that's what that's what Jill went through. And I saw her and my heart hurt. For her so much, and I'm so proud of how far she's come. And so that's a that's a comment. And so I guess my question is related to that. It's just like how, if someone were listening right now or watching right now, and they're in that scenario, what what piece of information, what would you want to share with them that would help them have the courage to get that information to go to therapy and and quite frankly, sometimes women they're afraid they're going to get information that's going to indicate they need to set a boundary. And that's scary. in some scenarios, and I'm the queen of boundaries, right? I'm all about the boundaries. I I've lived it. and what's true of it is sometimes in some scenarios the even the thought of setting a boundary with an individual is scary because of the reaction that is going to come. And so I was just wondering what your thoughts were on on that in that area.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (17:58) taking aside because this is such a heavy question and whoever's listening to this right now, particularly if you're in this situation, my heart goes out to you because I know how hard it can be to even accept the reality that you might be in an abusive marriage or relationship. one of the things that I will say is the the discovery of the fact that you are being abused sometimes is not always clear. Because when it comes to abuse, people for the most part understand it's abuse if someone physically assaults you or hits you. But there's a number of other forms of abuse. You were describing spiritual abuse when someone tries to exert power and control over you using scripture or sacred text. There's emotional abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, legal abuse. There's all different forms. And sometimes it could be done in such a manipulative way that you're left confused. So one of the things that I do encourage you to do is discreetly, because from a safety standpoint, look into talking to someone who's trained. Okay, trained and who has skills in this area. Why do I say it's important to talk someone who's trained? Because when it comes to domestic violence, there's a number of factors at play. And first of all, we want to make sure that whatever you're doing, you're doing so in a way that will keep you safe. And so talking to someone who's trained around that is important. Also, sometimes there's good people in your life who They they care about you, but they could be very misinformed. And they could give you advice, even if it's well intentioned, who can actually re-traumatize you. But in the church

Dana Skaggs (19:54) Mm-hmm. Yes.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (19:56) or in whatever faith tradition, sometimes people can try to make you forgive too soon, minimize what you're going through, use scripture to have you stay in a situation that's toxic. So asking God for discernment and and again, maybe talking to the domestic violence hotline or an agency and and do so discreetly again is important. important so that you can get some objective feedback to say, is this really abuse? Right? Because sometimes you might dismiss it as, they just have a temper or

Dana Skaggs (20:29) Mm-hmm.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (20:29) this is that or what no. Talk to someone who knows and then they can guide you. Exactly.

Dana Skaggs (20:33) Or they're right, I'm wrong. they I'm wrong. They're they they they know, they're smarter than me.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (20:40) Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's and that's tough. but that would be the advice initially that I would give for a very complex question.

Dana Skaggs (20:51) It is, but we're dealing with complex stuff, are we not?

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (20:54) Mm.

Dana Skaggs (21:32) that's just that's how this stuff goes. And then when you're when you're going through something like that, it it a lot of gaslighting. And I know you you treat women in in in in trauma. And I, as you were talking, I remember several times actually had to learn this the hard way. How many things do we learn the hard way? but I learned

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (21:52) So

Dana Skaggs (21:53) that sometimes a controlling my experience was it was a controlling husband. It doesn't always have to be by any means, but it was a controlling husband who was a narcissistic person. And he he tried to come and commandeer the therapy sessions. So the wife would have an appointment with me. And he would call under the guise of, and maybe he really believed this, I don't know. Sometimes narcissists, you they've they've drunk their own Kool-Aid, right? So I'm just saying. And so he would call and he under the guise of, I want to make sure that you understand, what what my wife is suffering. And I think maybe if I came in for a session, then I could help really flesh out. The information that you have so you can help her better. Now, I would like to say that I never fell for that. I cannot say that. In the very beginning, when I was young and learning all the things, I fell for that. But I learned fast, I'm a quick learner, and I quickly figured out what was going on. And then I'm a very direct person. So then I I we address that in in therapy. Unfortunately, she did not come back. She was not ready to it's hard. And and I'll make one other comment about this, about boundaries, and I'm gonna ask you another quick wrap it back around to get your feedback is that guys, when when we first started, when when Reverend Jocelyn and I were trying to get this podcast going today, I could not get my headphones to work. And just stay with me, I'm getting around to the point. So I couldn't get my headphones to work. And I tried and I tried. And with this, I even got some old headphones and put them on, did all the things. And I'm like, okay, I'm not stopping. I'm not effing stopping. I don't stop. I don't stop. I don't back down. And we finally got, we finally got it going. But the reason why I'm saying this is because that's one of the reasons why, as the queen of boundaries, it's like when when you support someone, it's like you you you get to the point where, okay. I don't back down. And it's like if you if you're in a relationship with someone and you feel like you cannot say no. You feel like your your opinion is irrelevant. The only opinion that matters is in the relationship is the other person's. if you offer an alternative point of view, you're wrong. you can't ever say, I don't want to do this, I want to do this over here instead. That's a form of a no. If you're in a relationship like that and you have to always back down, back down, back down in favor of the other person's opinions and their desires, hello. You are being emotionally abused in all likelihood. So I just want to throw that out there. and to be honest with you, in some instances, I think people would rather be physically abused than emotionally abused, because, well, there's pros and cons on either way. But with emotional abuse, there's a lot of manipulation and lying. And the abuser will sometimes go around and go to the friends and poison the poison the friends and say say things to the friends to try to isolate the the one who's being abused. So I just wanted to toss that out in in, Reverend Jocelyn and in piggybacking on what you were saying earlier.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (25:34) Well, let me first off start by saying that your listeners couldn't see me, but I was like clapping. I muted myself. Yeah,

Dana Skaggs (25:40) Well, the ones on YouTube can.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (25:42) they can see. Okay, I didn't know they could see me. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Dana Skaggs (25:45) Yeah.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (25:46) Because here's the thing that I know is that when it comes to boundaries to your point, that is something that someone who i is on the abusive side, they're abusive, they are they absolutely hate that word. It's like a curse word. Because that that's getting in the way. of them having power and control. over you, which is really what abuse boils down to. And when it comes to abuse that's not physical, oftentimes it's just you're left so doggone confused because you just can't always there's not usually a witness to to be able to and you're trying to describe the state of confusion that you have been left in by the whole situation. Why did he just go from zero? Because it's not always a he, excuse my language, why did they just go from zero to this? Or why is it a thing when it shouldn't even be a thing and it's just it's just confusing. But it does have a major toll toll on you. And when I was in my healing process, I joined support groups for domestic violence survivors. And listening to those stories, many of the women lost hair, health issues, all types of things was happening because that type of duress one of my girlfriends c called herself a prisoner of war. it felt like that. And being under that chronic state of trauma. It does something to you.

Dana Skaggs (27:15) my gosh, you are a hundred percent right. nail on the head, it just it beats you down, it wears you down. That's one of the reasons why when I I train people about boundaries, I love to use a yard analogy because it makes it very easy to understand. And I'm like, imagine you have a yard, and in your yard are your thoughts, your feelings, and your actions. These are things that belong to you. This is where your agency lies. These are things that you can change, and these are things that you are responsible for. And then if you traipse across your grass, you're going to run into a property line. Now, on the other side of that property line is your neighbor's yard, okay? Your neighbor's thoughts, feelings, and actions are in your neighbor's yard and they don't belong to you. You cannot, you're not causing what your neighbor is thinking, feeling, or doing. You cannot control it, and surely you cannot cure it. That is a very simple analogy that I love to train people in because when you're in these relationships, frequently you get blamed for when I say your partner, your neighbor, that means your partner or could be a coworker. Anybody. Anybody that you're in relationship with is your neighbor. So frequently they're like, I wouldn't be this mad if you wouldn't do such and such. hail to the no is what I say to that. Okay. This is my podcast, and I'll talk how I want. So I'm like, no, if if if if he is I'm saying he, it could be a she. I've heard these stories too, but just for brevity's sake, we'll just say he. So if he says, Well, I wouldn't be mad if you if you hadn't come in late or whatever, or if you hadn't used whatever first of all, his emotion is in his brain. And unless you have access to his brain, you cannot cause him to feel anything. So That's why I love teaching boundaries and and helping women understand, okay, well, is it your thought? Is it your feeling? Or is it someone else's thought or feeling, which they're gonna blame you for it, but you're the one that needs to know it's not yours, it's on the other side of the property line.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (29:32) Hmm, that right there. Very important. And I think once you start it once you start realizing that and it clicks and you see what's going on, that's where the education piece is important. saying, no, that was manipulation. No, that that had nothing to do with you. And

Dana Skaggs (29:50) Nope.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (29:50) being able to call VS BS, and I but understanding too, in some cases, depending on the volatility of the situation, you also have to be wise and safe about is what. Well, because

Dana Skaggs (30:02) Yes. Yes.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (30:03) even with one thing I want to quickly mention here, too, is one of the things I found out when it comes to domestic violence, it's not even fully recommended that you go to counseling, particularly because the person who's being abused can get in trouble. And I'm talking about marriage, counseling couples counseling. because you can get in trouble for telling on the person for being abusive, the person, if the counselor, the therapist is not trained to be able to see what's happening when it comes to. Domestic violence, like the story you were mentioning earlier, then they could absolutely be manipulated. So it's one of those things where going back to your question about my recommendations, you educate yourself. You, talk to someone who's going to help you to know your options and develop a plan for.

Dana Skaggs (30:55) I love this. Now, Reverend Jocelyn, help me understand you you had a heart for you have your programs. Now let me look refer back to the the bio, helping women gain clarity, build structure, and confidently launch and grow purpose-driven businesses. So my question as I read that description was. These women that you're helping grow purpose-driven businesses, what in general, when you look back, what are their main pain points? What are the things that these particular women that are trying to build purpose-driven businesses, what do what does this particular niche of women struggle with the most? What

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (31:45) Hmm.

Dana Skaggs (31:46) are you trying to help there?

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (31:48) Yeah, so I love working with women who see what they're doing as a form of ministry. for me, when I started my Christian counseling company, that's my ministry. when I'm doing trauma healing groups, it's Christ centered groups. I'm doing retreats at churches, but it's ministry to me. But it also is has a business structure because ministry can be done through your business. And so I am called to work with women who want to do the same. The women who I work with though often struggle With that dichotomy of okay, faith and business, like ministry and money. how do I structure this in a way where I'm honoring my faith in God, but I also make this sustainable? I'm the type that'll give everything away for free forever. And and the God bless you for your heart. If you're looking to do this as a business, though, how can we still set this up where there is a financial engine to support the business? The business so that you're not going into a whole bunch of debt and your mission can move forward. So, what I help women do, those heart-centered women out there who feel called to build the nonprofits, to be Christian coaches, to be speakers, I help them to honor their core, their faith, but also set their kingdom business up in a way that has a plan that's sustainable, so they can reach the people who are their assignment.

Dana Skaggs (33:17) I love this a lot and I know our time is about up, but I wanted to to make a comment about that and then also make sure that all of the listeners and viewers can find you, can get access to you. And we're gonna talk about your two books as well. And you have a podcast that I'm gonna be guesting on tomorrow, I think. This is gonna be so much fun. We could have some more time together, Josh.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (33:33) Yes. I'm I'm very excited.

Dana Skaggs (33:38) So I think it's really interesting because I I'm I told you I'm an entrepreneur and I'm in a speaking business as well. And so It's it's it's an under it's understood that in general, I'm stereotyping here, but in general, people expect our culture expects men to charge. They expect women to do the same thing for free or for much reduced amount of money. This is not okay. If you have both people that are doing their business and and it whether it's ministry or whatever it is, and it's not, there needs to be more. gender equity there. So I'm so glad you're supporting the women and and helping them to understand with business there are expenses. If you want to continue, if you want to, if you want the same way with boundaries, if you want to do it, I help people play the long game. If you want to play the long game, I I work with high performers who burn out. If you want to play the long game and not burn out, you better figure out boundaries now or you're going to gas out, girlfriend, right? Same way with money, right? If you don't Businesses, there are expenses that we have to keep it going. We have to pay money out initially to get things going along. If we go somewhere, there's, you have to pay for the plane tickets, you have to pay for the lodging, you have to pay for Uber, you have to pay for the meals. And that's just the travel. That's not talking about what it costs. for you, you have two books. You had to initially invest, right?

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (35:08) Yes.

Dana Skaggs (35:09) that just doesn't somebody doesn't just plop a book on your lap for free. No, you have to invest. You have to pay people to help you to do that, to publish, to put it together, to distribute it, all the things. There's so we as women, we have to develop in my mind, and it feels seems like you're like-minded in this, and this is what you're doing for these women, helping them to understand. Get your head straight in this. This is you need to be able to charge so that your business, so that your ministry can can keep going. If you're not charging money, if you're not collecting fees, then you're not you're gonna gas out, just like with boundaries. You're not gonna you're not gonna make it. You're not gonna have the money for your business to sustain if you're if you don't get comfortable charging for what you're providing.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (35:56) Absolutely. If it's a service, just like the the difference between a Christian therapist and a therapist who's not overtly advertising as Christian, is the service. You're providing a valuable service, a transformation. So charge your worth, charge your value.

Dana Skaggs (36:13) Yes, a hundred percent. That's it. whether you're Christian or not Christian shouldn't it's that's interesting. That's a that's a descriptor. But that doesn't say, because I'm Christian, that means I'm not going to charge any money. That

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (36:27) Mm-hmm.

Dana Skaggs (36:28) no, because it's not about the money. The money is re reinvested back into the business so that you can keep that going. And it's just that's it's a business. So I as you can tell, I'm a little bit on my soapbox about that right now, Reverend Jocelyn.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (36:41) I love it. We we could be on a soapbox together.

Dana Skaggs (36:45) All right. So I'm looking down. Where is it that you want people to go? If they want, I know. Well, first of all, you have two books. One Sister Start Your Ministry. That's

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (36:56) Hey, yes.

Dana Skaggs (36:58) the first book. And then Breaking the Power of the Mask. Ooh. Ooh, that sounds interesting. So where do people go? I know there's listeners and there's viewers on YouTube. That are thinking, my goodness, this is just the tip of the iceberg. I have got to get a hold of Reverend Jocelyn Jones and find out more about this woman. Where do they go?

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (37:20) Well, I'm mostly Rev Jocelyn everything. So you can go to RevJoclin, R E V, Jocelyn.com. My website has all my social media. YouTube. I'm like I live on YouTube. So find me at Revostelin, subscribe there. But if you go to Revjocelyn.com, for those who are looking to start their ministry, you'll see a option that pops up for you to get a free ministry launch starter kit that's going to literally, if you feel called to build that ministry beyond the walls of the church. church is going to help you to get started and take your next step. So that's my free gift for your listeners.

Dana Skaggs (37:57) I love that. That's fantastic. Rev Jocelyn, thank you so much for spending your precious time and your expertise and your energy to be here with me and all the Phoenix and Flame community. Thank you, thank you so much.

Rev. Jocelyn Jones (38:11) It's been a joy. This has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you for having me.

Dana Skaggs (38:16) This is fun listeners. Okay, now I know that you've heard multiple things today that you're thinking, I know of a friend, I know of a relative, I know of a coworker that needs to hear exactly this. Take this episode, copy and paste it, send it in text, send it in email, take this episode and post it on your favorite social media sites so we can grow our Phoenix and Flame community and let people know you are not alone. I hope your day's been going great. I hope the rest of it is fantastic. I'm Dana on Phoenix and Flame.

Are your work boundaries supporting you—or quietly draining you?

Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz and find out where you stand.

Take the Free Quiz

First aired 10/18/2026

You've spoken up. You've set the boundary. Two years later, nothing has changed. For a lot of high performers, that's the moment burnout sets in and they quietly check out. In this episode, Dana sits down with Timothy Ernst, an HR and organizational development leader with more than three decades of experience in manufacturing and construction, to ask what really has to change when saying the words isn't enough.

Tim got into HR "backwards," moving from broadcast journalism into organizational development, and he has spent his career learning the work from the assembly line to the construction site. Together, they talk about why HR needs a seat at the table, the difference between listening and truly hearing, why turnover is the clearest measure of culture, what to do when your company has no HR department, and why AI is a tool, not a replacement for people.

Watch this episode

https://youtu.be/Vlkctg2-GaI

In this episode

• Why HR earns its seat at the table by understanding operations and the P&L, and how to move from tactical to strategic
• The difference between a manager who listens and a leader who truly hears, and why humility and owning mistakes build trust
• Why turnover, especially among your high-potential employees, is the clearest measure of your culture, and how quiet quitting begins
• What to do when you've spoken up and nothing changes, including when there is no HR department
• Why AI is a powerful tool but people still have to execute, and the five connected systems behind a healthy culture

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Timothy Ernst, an HR and organizational development leader with 30+ years of experience
• (02:58) Getting into HR "backwards": from broadcast journalism to organizational development
• (04:55) Lessons from Whirlpool and a "PhD level education in human emotion"
• (06:20) Why HR needs a seat at the table: learning the business and the P&L
• (07:57) How HR is viewed and the pain points of working in HR
• (09:04) Tactical vs. strategic HR, and creating a safe space to talk
• (10:26) Keeping veteran knowledge in-house by leveraging experienced leaders for their minds
• (12:48) You've spoken up for two years and nothing has changed: now what?
• (14:54) Listening vs. hearing, and why leaders need humility
• (16:51) Daily management systems: what happens when nobody's watching
• (18:18) Leading virtual teams and building trust through intentional check-ins
• (19:53) Belonging, burnout, and quiet quitting
• (21:21) Turnover and high-potential employees as a measure of culture
• (21:46) "Do more with less," overwhelm, and the cost of burnout
• (23:59) What leaders and HR can do: play to strengths and give stretch assignments
• (26:56) No HR department? Ask your manager: can you take a risk?
• (28:01) Dana's "yards" model of boundaries
• (29:27) How AI will impact the workplace: a tool, not a replacement
• (32:03) Authenticity in an AI-assisted world
• (33:14) Keeping your own voice, and Tim's book Systems Over Slogans
• (35:17) Where to find Timothy Ernst and his books
• (37:53) Why his book is different: communication, conflict, and five connected systems

About Timothy Ernst

Timothy Ernst is an HR, organizational development, and leadership development professional with more than three decades of experience at the intersection of people, operations, and business strategy. He began in broadcast journalism, found his way into organizational development at Western Kentucky University, and went on to work at Whirlpool and in the construction industry, where he made a point of working alongside crews to see the job through their eyes. He is writing two books: Systems Over Slogans: How Leaders Build Cultures That Perform, Adapt, and Endure, and a second on leveraging HR as a strategic partner.

Connect with Timothy on LinkedIn and follow him there for updates on his books.

Favorite quotes "There is a very big difference between listening and hearing." —Timothy Ernst "They've quit on the job, they just forgot to tell you." —Timothy Ernst "You're never going to know that until you take that risk and ask the question." —Timothy Ernst Resources mentioned

• Systems Over Slogans: How Leaders Build Cultures That Perform, Adapt, and Endure by Timothy Ernst: follow Timothy on LinkedIn for release updates
• Timothy's second book on HR as a strategic partner: currently in progress
• Timothy Ernst on LinkedIn

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Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Ready to find your own voice on stage? Dana's a big fan of Mic Drop Academy, a public speaking and group coaching program built for women. Watch the free webinar, join a workshop, or dive into the bootcamp to build the confidence to speak up and be heard. (These are affiliate links — Dana may earn a commission at no extra cost to you.)

Read the full transcript

Dana (00:01) Welcome friends. Whether you're out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it's wonderful to connect with you. Joining us today is Timothy Ernst. Now, Timothy, for more than three decades, worked at the intersection of human resources, organizational development, leadership development.

Dana (00:28) And business strategy, but then he became fascinated with a question. Why do some organizations achieve sustainable success while others struggle? Even though all the organizations have access to similar resources, technology, and opportunities. Tim, welcome to Phoenix in Flame.

Timothy Ernst (00:56) Thanks for having me, Dana. I really appreciate it.

Dana (00:59) This is amazing. Now guys, I I ran across Tim on LinkedIn because as we'll do and and I'm wanting to support high performers and burnout and and all the things and so I'm trying to connect with people. Well what you what happens on LinkedIn, for those that don't know, it can be a fabulous place and sometimes you run into folks that I don't know, they're dry. They seem like they're they have good words.

Dana (01:29) Good words, good descriptions, but then when you try to make a connection and you try to create a relationship to get something to happen, there's just there's not a lot there. either they're not interested or to be brutally honest, and that's what we're like on Phoenix and Flame, they're just really boring. Right? It's just like you fall asleep talking to them, all right. So

Dana (01:55) Tim and I, that's not what happened. We I I found him on there. I'm like, my gosh, I love what he was standing for. I love his his supportive people, which we're gonna get into all of this. And then we reached out and we had a connection call. And we really we had fun, we laughed, we we we had a good time and we talked about stuff that really mattered because I could tell from Tim, and we're gonna we're gonna unpack it here, that he was willing to go there and address the real things and say the words.

Dana (02:22) Because I really don't have a lot of patience for people that aren't willing to go there and address the real issues. Cause as a therapist, I hear about these real issues in my office. So this is where people really live. And so if we can't talk about it, we're wasting time as far as I'm concerned. So Tim, I'm very glad to have you on Phoenix and Flame. So, I like to create space in the beginning of the podcast for my guests to

Timothy Ernst (02:47) That's fair.

Dana (02:47) decide, do you want to start at the beginning?

Dana (02:52) Y H R. Or do you have a story you want to jump right into? We'll go wherever you want to go.

Timothy Ernst (02:58) Well, I like to tell people that I got into the HR space backwards. I was I I tell the story, I'm one of these guys that knew exactly what he wanted to do when he graduated high school. I went into college, jumped into broadcast journalism, radio and TV news. And by my junior year, I was going, there has got to be more to life than dealing with everyone's tragedies. the the media back then is definitely not the media that it is today.

Timothy Ernst (03:28) this whole if it bleeds, it leads mentality. It just it it really wore on. I was asked April before May graduation, where I went to the Western Kentucky University. They asked me, Hey, do you want to come back and work on your master's degree? We feel like you've got a lot of things that you can teach us. We still feel like we have things that we can teach you. and by the way, we'll pay you to teach. Okay. Hey.

Timothy Ernst (03:57) Real life or stay in school. I'll stay in school. I very quickly learned why I was there. I found this class in training and organizational development. This is where I say I got into HR backwards. I went in through the OD side of things. learned how to connect. I had used a lot of the knowledge and skill that I had developed in the broadcast field, started doing safety videos, stuff like that.

Timothy Ernst (04:27) I ran across Dr. Randy Caps. He was the head of the Department of Communication and Broadcasting. he one of his largest customers that he was working with through his consulting business was the Lowpool Corporation. He asked me if I would work, come and work for him. he took me under, yes, ma'am, the local pool corporation.

Dana (04:44) Was that whir whirlpool you said? Okay. Gotcha.

Timothy Ernst (04:48) Right Randy took me under his wing. And I I can honestly say that when we look back at my career.

Timothy Ernst (04:55) There are individuals that I can say, I am where I am because they made me a better version of me. Randy really lit that flame. so at Whirlpool, after about five years there, moving a 53-year-old manufacturing facility from a management-based organization and a team-based organization, I really got a PhD level education in human emotion.

Timothy Ernst (05:23) And you know how to answer questions, how to deal with issues. I have this phrase that I've always said when it comes to confronting issues. I'm gonna light my hair on fire, I'm gonna strip down naked, and I'm gonna run right through the middle of it. And I know that that's rather visual and rather blunt,

Dana (05:40) Imagery.

Timothy Ernst (05:42) but when it comes to confronting issues, well, when it comes to confronting issues, I I feel like

Timothy Ernst (05:51) People are afraid to I'm gonna say the wrong thing, I'm gonna do the wrong thing. And I think part of that is just because we've become such a litigious society. but I knew that if I wanted to keep my hand in the training and in the OD field, in this part of the country, I'm in the Kentucky area, this part of the country, you have no choice but to go into the human resources side of the business. So I have

Timothy Ernst (06:20) Always gone into HR with what I'm going to say are my eyes wide open. I look at HR through the lens of operations. And I think that that's an important piece. I'm actually I'm writing a second book now on leveraging HR as a strategic partner. And one of the things that I point out is HR really needs to have a seat at the table. Well, how do you get that seat at the table?

Timothy Ernst (06:49) You have to understand how the business works, how the business runs, the financial success. You have to understand the PL. I'm I'm very fortunate in my career in that I've had leaders that have said, go and learn. So, when I was at Whirlpool, I would go out and work on the assembly line. I stood shoulder to shoulder. I learned through the eyes of what the men and women went through on a daily basis. When I worked in construction.

Timothy Ernst (07:15) I would put steel toe boots on, my hard hat, hide this vest, I'd jump in a hole and grab a shovel. People looked at me like I had two heads. But for me, it was about seeing it through their eyes. You've heard the expression walk a mile in a man's moccasins. It's more than that. It's it's truly about experiencing what they go through on a day in and day out basis. And trust me, when you're standing in a hole in a hole or whether you're moving a

Timothy Ernst (07:42) a heavy item that's over a half a million pounds and you're doing it in the hot summer in the in the heat or you're doing it in the winter in the cold, it gives you a different perspective that you wouldn't have

Dana (07:55) So as you're talking,

Timothy Ernst (07:56) Right.

Dana (07:57) I'm thinking of a couple of questions, and you can take them in whichever order you would like. One of them is, how do you think, and from your experience, how do you believe that people view HR?

Dana (08:12) Like employees and and you could you could go from probably who who am I talking about? Am I talking about C suite? Am I talking about employees? how from your experience, how has HR been viewed? that's one question. And number two, and they dovetail together. The question is, what have you experienced are the pain points

Dana (08:35) Of being in human resources. when you go in there,

Timothy Ernst (08:39) Yep.

Dana (08:39) what are the the areas that just they're just like that that the thorn that just you can't quite get pulled out of your side that you've noticed repetitively. It's not just a one business situation, it's it's an HR experience that seems to go across and and other HR, people that you've talked to speak of the same thing. So those are two different questions, but they're related.

Timothy Ernst (09:04) So I had the privilege of working for a family road construction business. They've been around for over 25 years, helped that organization really to grow beyond their own expectations, learned a lot from that family. And it was while I was there that I really started to understand that in my past, HR was always views, was always viewed as tactical. What do I mean by that?

Timothy Ernst (09:31) You write the handbooks, you create the policies, you do all the hiring, you do all the firing. HR was one of those places that you only went when you either A had a problem or B were in trouble. I'm not a fan of that. I always had this philosophy that said, look, you're gonna have good days, you're gonna have bad days. I would rather you come into my office, shut the door, drop every F bomb under the sun.

Timothy Ernst (09:57) My only request was at the end of that, say, Tim, thanks for listening. I feel so much better. Open that door and leave. And I will never say another word to you. I I wanted to create a safe space. I wanted it to be a place where if people needed to come and talk, I could just listen and lend an ear. and I think that's where I think that viewpoint creates an issue, meaning that HR is just tactical.

Timothy Ernst (10:26) I think where HR really needs to separate itself. And I think in the organizations that have a very healthy and a very strong culture, HR is more strategic. and what I mean by that is, they're looking at do we have our ACEs in their places? from a a longevity perspective, when we're looking at turnover, what are we going to do with our, superintendents that have been there for 30 years that have a

Timothy Ernst (10:56) Of experience. Unfortunately, when they leave, that knowledge goes with them. And one of the things that I've tried to do is, there's still a lot of value. whether it's creating a training school or doing training on site, I'm bringing a lot of those superintendents in and I'm leveraging for their leveraging them for their minds and not for their backs. Why am I leveraging for them for their minds?

Timothy Ernst (11:22) They've got 30 and 40 years of experience. I want that knowledge and skill to stay in-house. And so what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to duplicate in those employees, those team members, the knowledge that that superintendent has. How great would it be if all of your leaders were able to, you were able to duplicate yourself in five, six, seven people? That's five, six, seven people that now have that knowledge.

Timothy Ernst (11:49) It it's the it's easy to say that if I had three superintendents and I put them in front of me, all three of them would approach a problem differently. Not a problem with that, especially if there's no wrong way to solve that problem. What if all three of those superintendents taught seven people how to solve the same problem? Every one of those individuals gets a different perspective. They get to pick the one that really resonates with them, their style, their methodology.

Timothy Ernst (12:19) And I think again, that's where HR really needs to go. That's how HR gets a seat at the table, it's being more strategic. You can live in both worlds in HR. You can be strategic and you can be tactical. One of the things that you're going to find out is that if you're living on the tactical side all the time, you're too busy to be strategic. There's a balance that you have to carefully walk and carefully take.

Dana (12:48) Well, and I hear you describing wonderfully a lot of solutions and and working with people and trying to help train so that more people can know the wisdom and share that around. Being a therapist, I hear the other side of things to where you have employees that they they might be able to come talk. You mentioned earlier that they would come in and you might give them a an amazingly safe place to speak and to to sh

Dana (13:17) to share their frustrations. But at some point, and I'm sure you would agree, there has to be change.

Dana (13:24) Because what I'm what I'm conversations that I'm hearing is that, yes, I've I've

Timothy Ernst (13:27) That's where that leadership development comes from.

Dana (13:29) said all the words. I've they said Dana, because I'm the queen of boundaries. And so I'm like, okay, I'm talking to them and I'm saying it's your responsibility. If you have a frustration about something, if you're having an experience at work that is really annoying you, frustrating you, if you're being taken advantage of by a coworker, if you feel like you have too much work on your your plate, you can't do it all, you're not a robot, you're you're having panic attacks, all these things. I said you have to speak this because

Dana (13:54) that other people just don't magically know what you're

Timothy Ernst (13:57) Yeah.

Dana (13:57) thinking and feeling and that's part of boundaries. They're telling me, Dana, that sounds great and it is great. And I did speak my words and I've spoken my words for two years and nothing has changed. So for those listeners out there or the viewers on YouTube that might be one of those individuals that are listening to this podcast and they're wanting us to get real. They're wanting us to

Dana (14:21) say something that they're experiencing and thinking how what are they supposed to do as as an HR expert? Maybe they work for a business that has an HR department, maybe it doesn't. And so I'd really like to know if they work for a place that does have an HR department, what should they do? And what if they work for some place that it maybe is a smaller hometown business and they don't have an HR department, but

Dana (14:47) How do they advocate for themselves and they've talked themselves to death and nothing is changing?

Timothy Ernst (14:54) So, last case scenario is, hey, I'm I'm not a matcher, I'm not a fit here. And then what they do is they find themselves putting their resume out there and, they they speak with their feet. a lot of organizations that I've worked in in the past, when you look at turnover, for me, it's okay, why did that turnover occur? Well, there's a couple of things that I've generally found. in some cases, my manager listens.

Timothy Ernst (15:25) That's fine, but does he hear you? And there is a very big difference between listening and hearing. listening is just the art of sound. that's the shout the sound waves go into the ear, they stimulate the facilli, they just they go into the cocoa. when when when when leaders actually hear you, they're listening with their mind and their heart, but I think in order for leaders to do that.

Timothy Ernst (15:54) There has to be a level of humility there. in psychology, they use this analogy of peeling the onion. I'm not saying that people have to know all of your deep dark secrets. It's not about that. Number one, people have to know that people have to know that just like you, you make mistakes. And, one of the things that I've that I've done is look, when I make a mistake, I own it. And if it's a mistake that I've made and it involves my team.

Timothy Ernst (16:22) I talk to my team about it. Hey guys, this is what I did. This is what I did long. This is what I should have done. and here's what I'm doing to try to correct it. and by doing that, what it does is it it puts you into that position of allowing yourself to be human. I'm writing a book right now on I'm going through and I'm I'm doing a rewrite on a book on organizational culture. And there's five things that I have found that are interconnected.

Timothy Ernst (16:51) That really work together to create a healthy organizational culture. One of those things is what I call, daily management systems. What's a daily management system? Well, it's the things that happen when nobody's watching. It's how do you present yourself? How do you act? How do you speak? What words do you choose? the manner in which you choose to speak those words. It's how you represent yourself within that organization.

Timothy Ernst (17:22) It's it's one thing to be one way when you're in front of a group of people or if you're an executive around a group of executives. But when those executives aren't there, when you're wearing a company logo, you're flying their flag, you're walking down the hall, what is that like? It's, how do you are you out of character? If you see something wrong, do you say something? The manner in which you say it, do you lose your temper, raise your voice?

Timothy Ernst (17:52) Do you demand things? I don't I don't do that. I have conversations with people. I ask. I set some expectations. But I don't set expectations that I'm not willing to follow myself. And I think that's one of the big differentiators that we're seeing in business today is that, since COVID.

Timothy Ernst (18:18) I saw this early even pre-COVID, but since COVID seems to have gotten worse. organizations have become scattered. you see more and more people working from home. This is this camera and and their computer. It's how they connect with people. And I think it's harder for leaders today to be able to keep that camaraderie with their team when this is the method that they have.

Timothy Ernst (18:45) I was talking to a manager the other day and I made the comment. I said, understand you're managing people virtually. How many times do you have a check a just check-in just to see how they're doing, how they're working, how things are going? Do they need anything? It's it's one of those calls that you make that basically says, look.

Timothy Ernst (19:06) You're what's going on with you is more important right now. How can I help you? he goes, I never do that. He said, I'll bet if you start doing it the first time you do it, you're gonna raise an eyebrow. What's what are they up to? The second time you do it, yeah, exactly.

Dana (19:20) Yeah. Alter motive. What do they want?

Timothy Ernst (19:24) Well, it's it's you haven't established trust. That's the key. You have

Dana (19:30) Mm-hmm.

Timothy Ernst (19:30) to have that trust there.

Timothy Ernst (19:33) And I think the second time you do it, the third time that you do it, the fourth time you do it with intent, people start to see, hey, they really are trying to connect. They really are trying to be different. They really are trying to make me feel like I'm part of a a bigger process. And and honestly, I think

Dana (19:49) Well, and I I don't

Timothy Ernst (19:51) that's the thing that's missing.

Dana (19:53) the and I don't have the statistics with me right at at at the table, but statistics show that people will tolerate quite a bit of of unrest, of upset if they feel like they are connected, if they feel like they belong. And one of the things that we had talked about before was that when people start to get burnt out

Dana (20:18) They disengage. They they like they pull away. I feel in my mind I see it like two train cars on a track and they just decouple. They just just start moving apart. They're not connected.

Timothy Ernst (20:27) There's a term there's a term

Timothy Ernst (20:29) for that now that they use in business. It's called quiet quitting. It's people

Dana (20:32) Yes.

Timothy Ernst (20:33) that they're still there, they're still occupying a space. They've quit on the job, they just forgot to tell you. So by not having or establishing trust early on, that's what happens. you make a great point, Dana. team members will stay and put up with more when

Timothy Ernst (20:53) They feel like they're a part of the process when they feel like that the organization has their best interest in part, or the organization is going to help them grow and develop. If they're just if they just feel like, hey, the only reason I'm here is to do ABC XYZ, I come in, I go home, I collect a paycheck. I come in, I go home, I collect the paycheck. There's nothing else for me, they're going to start looking. if you want to know.

Timothy Ernst (21:21) how strong your culture is. What's your turnover like? And it's not just turnover, but how many key employees or high potential employees that you've identified are leaving. And I think if you start to identify, where those high potentials are and the turnover at that level, it's going to say a lot about your culture.

Dana (21:46) Well, and see, that's amazing. It and it's so true. And I'm wondering what how you see the role of HR in helping the leaders see what's going on because I see a scenario where sometimes the leaders are allowing the team members to become overwhelmed. They there's a layoff by attrition going on and and they're they're getting more and more things put on their plate and they're told just

Dana (22:16) Just figure it out, right? And and

Timothy Ernst (22:17) Do more with mass.

Dana (22:18) people can do that to a point. you have amazing people and they will take on more. They'll figure out how to work smarter, not harder. They and that's an you put them in a a vice like that. And some people are amazing at what they come out, but everybody has a limit because we are not cyborgs. We are human beings. And so I'm wondering.

Dana (22:39) what you see the role of HR in helping leaders to not because it i if these people get burned out and they quit then it costs a lot of money research indicates that it it takes about five if if you have a a a a an intermediate level corporation about a thousand employees it costs them approximately five million dollars a year

Dana (23:06) to restaff and retrain employees because they've left because they're burnt out, they're overwhelmed, they don't feel hurt, they don't feel connected. So what do you see? Because I know right now as we're talking, the people that are listening to this podcast right now, there's going to be a percentage of them that are walking this path right now. They might be at work on lunch break. They might be, they might be listening to the podcast on the way home.

Dana (23:34) They might be walking on a weekend and their their life is this and they're they're frustrated. I'm wondering what you see as the HR department and also if there's not a department, if they're working for a place that's there's not a department, what they can do, what do you say? How do you train, how do you communicate with the leaders so that they don't end up leaving? Because that costs more money.

Timothy Ernst (23:59) Yeah. I think so let let's start with your first question. So what role can HR play? for me, I work with leaders all the time. And it's it's funny when you work in the construction industry or in the heavy hall industry where I'm at now, you always think of of leaders, foreman, superintendents as being these these these gruff guys. I have never worked around a group of people that really had the the desire to do the right thing.

Timothy Ernst (24:29) But at the same time, they're just so conflict avoidant. And part of that is the fact that, when they were brought into this profession, or they were, when they grew up into this profession, typically you look and it was their grandfather did it, their father did it. So this is one of those things that it's passed on as a generation. And, even my generation, I'm a Gen Xer by birth. we were taught to rub dirt in it, don't cry, get over it. And, I think today,

Timothy Ernst (24:58) it's no, you've you've got to understand that look, when you're talking about people, the entire package means that emotions are going to be involved. That that's part of being human. So we're not cybers. if when I work with my team or when I work with new leaders, what I always do is it's like, okay, you have to get work done as a leader. Your team helps you to get that work done. My recommendation is listen, guys.

Timothy Ernst (25:27) Here's what I need. Here's by when I need it. How you get it there is totally up to you. I'm available if you have questions. I'm available if if you get stuck or you need somebody to support or you want to bounce some questions off of me. And then I think what we do is you allow people to bring their strengths to the table. Now, if you're a leader and you've got a crew that's established and you you understand or you know how that crew works.

Timothy Ernst (25:57) You give them assignments that allow them to play into those strengths. If you have an employee who says, look, I really want to grow, okay, let's talk about that. Let's talk about what growth looks like. And then I might give them tasks that are stretch assignments. Maybe it's just something they've never really done before. I'm going to give them a chance to try it. And then we're going to use that as a coaching opportunity. Sit down with them. Hey.

Timothy Ernst (26:25) Here's the things that you did that were absolutely spot on fantastic. I noticed you struggled here. Let's talk a little bit about that. Now let me share with you why where I struggled when I first started doing this and why. And let me tell you some things that I did to work through that. So again, I go back to be human, peel that onion, share your successes, share your failures. People are not robots. But I think if you can assign tasks that play into people's strengths.

Timothy Ernst (26:56) I think you're gonna win it. you're gonna win. You're you are going to win, but in order to play into their strengths, you've got to get to know your people. There's no other way around that. You had a second question in there, and it's a what happens if you're in a smaller organization and you don't have HR and you really need to talk to your manager? This is where I'm gonna ask the question Can you take a risk? Why that question? Well

Timothy Ernst (27:24) When I go in and I talk to my manager, it's about, hey, this is what I'm doing today. This is where I see my path. This is the direction that I'm going. How does that align with your vision for me? and then what are some things that we can do together collectively to ensure that I'm going from A to B, B to C, C to D?

Timothy Ernst (27:50) And and maybe that path that I have envisioned for myself is a little bit different than the path that my manager has envisioned for me. You're never going to know that until you take that risk and ask the question.

Dana (28:01) I like that. And that really that aligns right with the whole the way I teach boundaries is that I I teach it in terms of yards. In our yard are our thoughts, feelings, and actions. And then there's a property line and our neighbors' thoughts, feelings, and actions are in their yard, and we're not responsible for those.

Dana (28:20) But we do have a responsibility for our own and to present those to people in a respectful way. And so when we know that, then that's that's a fabulous thing. Now, I wanted to ask before we finish today, I wanted to get your take on, because you're you're you're focusing on people like you you had something in your bio about whether it's growth, innovation, customer service, leadership or culture, all of that requires people.

Dana (28:50) that your emphasis has been on supporting people, supporting the person. And organizations grow when people grow. And so you've really you've really championed the person, right? So I'm wondering how you have seen and how you anticipate AI impacting the person's experience at work and what they are

Dana (29:17) anticipating what might be coming down the pike and how that might impact their what they're thinking's gonna happen and the fears and all the stuff.

Timothy Ernst (29:27) So, Dana, I'm going to say, I think you're probably reading my mind. You started asking that question, and I had this devilish grin on my face. Why? Why would I have

Dana (29:33) Yes, you did, I saw it.

Timothy Ernst (29:35) that devilish grin on my face? Let me answer that question with another question. when organizations say, we want to grow, we want to be more profitable, we want to expand our offerings, we want to increase production, we want to build faster. How are we going to do that? The answer is simple.

Timothy Ernst (29:58) People. Bottom line, everything every organization wants to do involves people. Okay, so AI is, I read all these articles where AI is going to replace this and AI is going replace that. To some degree, yes, I think it will. However, AI is a tool. AI will go out, it will scour the internet, it will gather all of the information.

Timothy Ernst (30:26) But it still takes people to be able to translate what AI has produced. AI is never going to put in a footer, dig a foundation, raise a building. AI might teach you a smarter way to do it, but it still takes people to be able to execute that. in manufacturing, you've got all these.

Timothy Ernst (30:51) Kanban systems, push, pull, and all these, or it's it's it's all based on inventory. And is it just in time? Is it this? Is it that? AI may be able to sharpen that to where you don't have so much inventory on hand. Because when you look at manufacturing, if you go to a small parts warehouse or you go to a warehouse where they have items stored, that makes accountants sweat. The reason it makes accountants sweat is

Timothy Ernst (31:21) That's money sitting there. And if that money

Dana (31:22) Mm-hmm.

Timothy Ernst (31:23) is not on a dryer or on a car or on whatever that you're building, it's a cost. You don't recoup that cost until it goes on to whatever it is that's going out. And then you don't recoup that cost until you sell it. That's how that wheel works. AI might make you better.

Timothy Ernst (31:45) at how you can run your small parts warehouse because you can take all this data and throw it into AI. And AI is absolutely phenomenal with crunching complex data. But at the end of the day, it still takes people to be able to execute.

Dana (32:03) Yeah. That you got your points are are spot on. And I I have an example to to to support what you just said. I'm a podcaster, obviously, and people will approach me wanting to guest on my podcast. Well, what AI has done is it's given some interesting individuals a way to communicate themselves,

Dana (32:29) through with on on email messaging and they appear one way they appear if I just go off their message I'd be like my gosh this is amazing right but once I dig in and find the profile I find the person I listen to their podcast episodes and this kind of stuff I find out that who the person is

Dana (32:55) Their personality, the the the way they are, how they appear on on a podcast is very different than what was represented to me on the message because because they were using an AI tool. So it's it can be used as a tool, but you still at at some point you're gonna be person to person. And you have to really watch out for that.

Timothy Ernst (33:14) In about 90 days, I'll have a book.

Timothy Ernst (33:17) In about 90 days, I'll have a book that's going to be available. It's called Systems Over Slogans: How Leaders Build Cultures That Perform, Adapt, and Endure. And this is really through the lens of, hey, look, I've been in this industry for for 30 years. these are some things that I've seen. And I've got stories throughout the book. And I always tell people that, the names were changed to protect the guilt.

Timothy Ernst (33:41) Unfortunately, you also have to change the names to protect the good people as well, because you just you never know how people are going to react to it. Well, a lot of this is stuff that it's my experience, it's stuff that I've written. It's a lot of the stuff that we're talking about here today. And, I was playing around one day and I was like, if I dropped this into Chat GPT, how it would make it pretty. And it it did. It made it pretty and made it me. It wasn't my voice. It wasn't me.

Timothy Ernst (34:11) And that's where I go back to your original question about AI is AI is a great tool. If you want to write an email, man, it can write a flowery email. Sounds professionally written, but does it have your voice? can it help you solve problems? It can. But you still have to execute. AI cannot execute for you. You have to do that yourself.

Timothy Ernst (34:40) it's it's it's it's a great tool. it's like your Outlook calendar, it's like your email, it's like, your iPhone, Android, if you're an Android user. all of these things have a place. All of these things are tools. They all help us become better, stronger, faster versions of ourselves. But at the end of the day, this iPhone, it's an inanimate optic. It's just gonna sit there until I pick it up.

Timothy Ernst (35:11) I push buttons, I do with it what I need to do. AI is no different.

Dana (35:17) That this is this has been such a interesting conversation and I know, there's people listening that thinking I'm I'm walking that, I'm experiencing that. And you mentioned a couple of books. So I wanna make sure that people that are listening and watching, how Tim, how do they where do they find the books? Where do they go?

Timothy Ernst (35:37) So right now I'm going through rewrites. So they're not out there, they're not publicly available. Like I said, in about the next 90 days, systems over slogans, how leaders build cultures that perform, adapt, and endure should be available. My goal is to try to get this thing published sometime towards the end of summer, beginning of fall. I started writing a second book on HR as a strategic partner. I'm about halfway through that book. I think that that book realistically probably won't be ready until next year.

Timothy Ernst (36:06) and the reason that I say that is when you do a rewrite, all of my spare time right now is really spent focusing on making this the best version that it can be. and one of the things that I'm doing, Dana, one of the reasons that I'm being so meticulous and so methodical with this is I've been blessed. I have stood on the shoulders of giants. I am where I am today because people took a chance on me. I didn't write a book.

Timothy Ernst (36:35) Because I'm looking for fame and fortune. I wrote a book because I had this knowledge that I gained and that I through trial and error, I I've worked with. I really wanted to get this out there to be able to share it with executives, with HR practitioners, with those folks that really want to make a difference in their organization.

Timothy Ernst (37:00) I'll tell you I've told other people, when this thing is ready, my social media is going to light up because I'm gonna put it out there. I'm gonna stand on the highest mountain. I'll even reach out to you, Dana, let me know, hey, this thing is available. Here it is. because, again, this is something that I really want to be able to share with you.

Dana (37:21) So let me ask you, and I know our time is up and we've gone a little bit over, but that's okay. It's my podcast. I can do that if I want to.

Timothy Ernst (37:26) I think

Dana (37:27) So, here's my last question to you about your book. I imagine there's a lot of books out there about HR. Why would someone why should they pick yours? What is gonna make your book be any different than all the other HR books out there that cover all the the fancy words and the

Dana (37:46) the multisyllabic words, da da da da da. Why why should they pick yours?

Timothy Ernst (37:53) Well, systems over slogans, the book on culture, really highlights, it's all the things that we talk about in an organization, the importance of communication, the importance of having a healthy mission, vision, and values, and how you use that as the lens for how you make decisions. I worked with a great construction company. And not only did they have a mission and core value statements posted on their wall.

Timothy Ernst (38:17) Every meeting we talked about it. It was in action. We closed meetings with it. We lived it. We breathed it. It was the lens through which we did what we did. and that's an example of of how you use that stuff. it was interesting because I I reached out to several people that have influenced me and I said, Hey, would you mind reading this? Tell me what you think. And I got feedbacks from Molly. Molly said, Hey, this is great, you you you

Timothy Ernst (38:45) You skirted the issue, but you didn't really talk about it. And that's conflict. And I'm like, my God, you're right. Healthy organizations, conflict is okay. You have to have that in a healthy organization. But how you manage that is important. And so there's chapter seven is just all on conflict. We talk about generational differences. and then the other thing that we talk about, there's these five.

Timothy Ernst (39:11) Systems that you'll hear me refer to. I've already talked about one of them daily management. recruitment systems, promotion systems, onboarding systems, and then performance systems. All five of those kind of work like a

Dana (39:23) Hmm.

Timothy Ernst (39:24) a cog. And when all the wheels connect and all of the wheels turn, the machine works beautifully. But at the bottom, what makes all this stuff go? People, not AI.

Dana (39:40) that people that's it we definitely are aligned with that people are the that that they're what makes everything go around Tim thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom and your experience with myself and Phoenix and Flame listeners and viewers today. Thank you very, very much.

Timothy Ernst (40:06) David, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Dana (40:08) Hey guys, I know you've heard multiple things today that you're thinking, you know what? I have a friend, I have a coworker, I have a relative that really needs to hear this conversation between Dana and Tim. Take this episode, copy and paste it in text, copy and paste it, send an email, post it on your favorite social media sites so we can grow our Phoenix inflame community and let people know you are not alone. I'm Dana.

Dana (40:37) I hope you've had a great day. I hope the rest of your day is fantastic. This is Phoenix in Flame.

Are your work boundaries supporting you—or quietly draining you?

Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz and find out where you stand.

Take the Free Quiz

First aired September 6, 2026

Dennis Bairos oversees more than 29 fitness locations across Texas, and somewhere between the grand openings and the late-night emails, he noticed a pattern: he was the guy who'd rather miss a flight than admit he needed help, the coach whose sideline energy made his own wife ask if he was okay, and the traveler who'd rather squeeze in one more phone call than let 20 free minutes in a rental car go to waste.

That pattern became his book, Wired Like This: Why Men Push Too Far and Still Say, I Got It!, a look at the small, everyday decisions at home, at work, and on the sideline of a kid's game that shape how men actually behave, often without them noticing.

We talk about why "I got it" might be the most dangerous phrase a man can say, the difference between healthy work ethic and ego-driven burnout, why men go all-in on a hobby and then abandon it completely, and how his wife became the one voice who could see what he couldn't.

Watch this episode

https://youtu.be/sRsXcIgmVAo

In this episode

• Why "I got it" might be the most dangerous phrase men say, and the ego hiding underneath it
• How Dennis's competitive, all-or-nothing wiring showed up coaching his kids' T-ball team, and the moment his wife had to tell him he'd gone overboard
• The real story behind missing a flight because he couldn't stop multitasking, even for a 20-minute drive to the airport
• Why work ethic can be a genuine skill and a trap at the same time, and how to tell the difference before it becomes burnout
• What's actually happening when a man goes all-in on a hobby, buys all the gear, and then drops it completely a year later
• How framing "asking for help" as the next level of leadership, instead of a weakness, changes the way teams operate
• Why a leader's pace becomes part of their identity, and the hidden cost that pace puts on everyone who reports to them

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Dennis Bairos, author of Wired Like This
• (00:57) His background in high-growth fitness leadership, and how that pace carried over to parenting
• (03:51) "Stop half-assing it": the moment Dana's own son called out her push, push, push mentality
• (05:54) Is "I got it" a male trait, or does Dana see it in women too?
• (08:38) The fear of slowing down: work ethic, ego, and the competition to be first in, last out
• (12:06) The missed flight: a real-time example of multitasking costing more than it saves
• (14:55) Why "I got it" might be the most dangerous thing men say
• (18:25) Reframing asking for help as the next level of leadership, not a weakness
• (22:13) What his wife saw in his coaching that he couldn't see in himself
• (24:52) The T-ball season that revealed his coaching had gone overboard
• (27:13) Why men go all-in on a hobby, then drop it completely
• (33:22) The airport conversation that changed how he leads: why a leader's pace becomes their identity
• (36:53) Where to find Dennis, his book, and his Instagram

About Dennis Bairos

Dennis Bairos is the author of Wired Like This: Why Men Push Too Far and Still Say, I Got It! A husband and father of three, he oversees more than 29 fitness locations across Texas as a senior leader in high-growth, high-volume organizations. He writes about the small, everyday decisions at home, at work, and on the sideline of a kid's game that shape how men actually behave.

Connect with Dennis on Instagram or LinkedIn. His book, Wired Like This, is available exclusively on Amazon.

Favorite quotes "I got it" might be the most dangerous thing men say. —Dennis Bairos "When your pace becomes your identity, the people who follow you don't just see the results — they see the costs." —Dennis Bairos "You will be more successful, and looked at as someone that's admired a little bit more, because you took that extra step and showed courage to ask for help." —Dennis Bairos Resources mentioned

• Wired Like This: Why Men Push Too Far and Still Say, I Got It!: Dennis's book, available exclusively on Amazon
• Dennis on Instagram: @keep.the.edge
• Dennis Bairos on LinkedIn

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[Dana] (00:01) Welcome, friends. Whether you're out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it's wonderful to connect with you. Joining us today is Dennis Bairos. Dennis is the author of Wired Like This: Why Men Push Too Far and Still Say, I Got It! He's a husband, a father of three, with a background in senior leadership. He writes about the small, everyday decisions at home, at work, on the sideline of a kid's game, that shape how men actually behave. Dennis, welcome to Phoenix and Flame.

[Dennis] (00:47) Yeah, thanks for having me. Guilty — yeah, all of that's correct. I did write that book. Happy to be here, and looking forward to the conversation.

[Dana] (00:57) This is fantastic. First of all, I'm interested in a bit of your background. You said you were in senior leadership — since I do a lot of work in the corporate space, helping people with burnout, that was one of the things that drew me to you: the masculine, the male mindset that could possibly trip somebody up at work. I work with high performers, and they say the things that are in your book. So I want to create some space for you to share — what experiences have you had in senior leadership, what have you noticed there, and also with your family, and how these things helped you arrive at writing a book?

[Dennis] (01:47) Yeah, so I've been in the fitness industry for quite some time — practically my entire career. Most of the organizations I've been with, including the current one, have been really high-volume, high-growth companies. I currently oversee over 29 locations here in Texas, big-box fitness spaces, so really rampant growth. Most of my career, I've had to move pretty fast — it's nonstop. I've had to work a lot, and most of it is self-induced, just me trying to keep up and trying to be a high performer myself. I think that's natural for me — I'm a natural leader, so I'm always taking probably more ownership than the average person. And that's carried over to my family and my children.

I noticed early on that I brought that over to my kids as well. Once they started getting into youth sports, that drive, that push, the long practices, the long hours — it's funny, on a podcast last week I was asked, "do you feel like you're bringing over your own competitiveness from your past as a child competing in sports?" And I thought about it for a second — I don't think so. I don't have this unsettled, failed athletic career I'm trying to settle through my children. I think it's just natural for me to push, to teach kids that if you want to get better at something, you've got to keep practicing, keep moving. I'm kind of an all-or-nothing person. I don't watch many sports, but the ones I do, I'm all in, a diehard fan. That's really how I run my life — it's very much natural.

[Dana] (03:51) I love this description. I'm taking notes as you're talking, because I don't want to interrupt you. I'd like to be able to say the same — no, I'm a very competitive person. I get bruises playing musical chairs, and that's not hyperbole — I literally had bruises from my shoulders to my ankles playing musical chairs one year at a fall festival at my church. So I'm thinking of the phrase, "if you're not bleeding, you're not playing." I have three kids as well, and my husband is also a very competitive person. And my youngest son confronted me, appropriately so, one time — I'd said to him one too many times, "stop half-assing it," and he called me on it. I feel like it was appropriate, because I was so in my own head about push, push, push, push, and he'd had it — I'd gone too far. I think that's a lot of what you're talking about in your book, and I want to hear more.

Your book is focused on men, and I want to ask — if your experience has been, not necessarily with your daughter, but with coworkers, friends — do you feel like this can be a personality style? Have you run into men who didn't have this "I got it, I'm not going to use GPS, I'm going to figure this out" kind of drive? How much of that do you feel is a male trait, which I think a lot of people would agree with, and have you seen these traits in some of the women you've interacted with as well?

[Dennis] (05:54) Certainly. From a female perspective — my wife and I, the dynamic between us — my wife works incredibly hard, works remote, homeschools all three of our children, works out every day, but she's got this self-regulation in her that I don't seem to have, or at least mine doesn't work the same way. She'll come up with reasons to sleep and the need for sleeping, and I come up with reasons not to sleep. Even though I have a fitness-minded background and know the importance of it, for whatever reason, I can't seem to sleep past 6 a.m. on a Saturday. So I see similarities across the board.

What's interesting is when I released the book, I started getting calls and texts, or I'd run into people — men who I'd think have completely different personalities from mine. Guys who don't have children, don't participate in sports, aren't ultra-competitive — they'd read my book and tell me, "we're a lot alike." I found that interesting. There are so many patterns and similarities, whatever it may be, male or female — I'm focusing on the male perspective because that's who I'm mostly around, but at the surface it may look a little different, while deep down there are drives in people that are very similar.

[Dana] (07:37) I get that. You pointed out something in your book I thought was really interesting, especially given my exposure to high performers — I've had them in my office on FMLA, having panic attacks, because they just push, push, push and don't know how to set boundaries. I'm known as the Queen of Boundaries, and they didn't know how to set them, they were just pushing. There's this idea in your book — this feeling that if you slow down, if you're not the first one there, not the first one with the answer, if you bring it down from 85 miles an hour to 55, you're simply going to lose out, someone else is going to get there first. I think that's such a common experience. Tell us more about your experience with that, people you've seen, and what's in your book about it.

[Dennis] (08:38) Yeah, I can offer two perspectives. One is, as I grew up, work ethic was, and still is, really my main skill. I think that for people like me, we believe that if you work harder than most people, you're going to be much further ahead. I think that can be true in many cases, and it carries on naturally for me. The other side of it is the ego and the pride — I think that still exists in so many pieces of business and leadership. When I travel a lot for work, and we do grand openings for new locations, there's a lot of executive leadership there, peers of mine, and there's almost this competition of who's going to leave first, who's going to stay later. It's so silly, but it drives people — who's going to be the first to leave, who's going to be last, who's putting in longer hours. I think that exists, and subconsciously it fuels exactly what we do in some cases.

So I think work ethic is still a main skill, a trait that carries most people further than others. And there's a lot of talk and a lot of opinions being thrown around about younger generations and how their work ethic is lesser or whatnot, so I think it's even more amplified now, trying to show younger generations that you do need to put in the work. But you've got to find the balance, and avoid that hot word: burnout.

[Dana] (10:40) That's a big deal. I love the word "balance," because that's it, in a big way. It's sort of like if you go too far with push, push, push, push, you're going to burn out if you add too many things. But on the other hand, if you don't have some kind of work ethic, then yes, other people are going to perform better than you, and they're going to get the raises, the promotions — that's just how life works. It's trying to find that balance.

You mentioned something in your book about the cold plunge, and I love this example. I'd like to hear you talk about how we sometimes add things like that, thinking, "this is going to give me the edge, this is a good idea" — and there's always another good idea around the corner. I'm interested in your thoughts about the short game versus the long game, because in terms of burnout, how many things can we add that make us look fantastic in the short game, but we're not going to last long doing all of that? What was your experience, and your thoughts, on the cold plunge and cracking that ice outside?

[Dennis] (12:06) Well, I'll give you a great example — I do write about this. I consider myself not a professional multitasker, but certainly someone who just lives on that most of my days and weeks. I'm conscious about it — I'm like, hey, Dennis, you're doing too much, you should stop. But I'm just wired like that, where I have to find every opportunity to use up my time. Not long ago, I was traveling for work, heading to one city for an interview, then right back to the airport to another city, where I'd be for a couple of days. I'm in the rental car driving to the airport, and I thought, I've got about 20 or 25 minutes, I need to make a couple of calls. When I'm in work mode, there's no podcast, no music — I'm just trying to find every single thing I can do throughout the day. So I take two calls, pull up to the airport, disconnect the Bluetooth, put my headphones in, wave the rental car woman off, start walking to the terminal.

I get to TSA, grab my briefcase, and I'm like, wait, where's my carry-on? I left it in the car. I'm walking back, finally finish my phone call, of course — call my wife, let her know. I said, "hey, I left my carry-on, just a heads up." She's like, "are you going to make it?" And without a doubt, I'm like, "yeah, I'm going to make it, it's only a five-minute walk." I get back and the car is gone, nowhere to be found. I'm sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting. That's a mistake I often make, and I'll reflect on it, but it's sometimes hard to peel back — the multitasking, trying to cram everything into every minute. It cost me: I missed my flight.

[Dana] (14:16) Oh my gosh, that is such a useful and practical example. I'm sure listeners right now, or viewers on YouTube, are thinking, "yeah, I've done that, I know what that's like" — like spinning so many plates that they just start dropping. You write that "I got it" might be the most dangerous thing men say. Talk about that — what do you mean, and why do you feel like that could be the most dangerous thing men say?

[Dennis] (14:55) I've seen it in a couple of different ways. Interestingly, I actually had somebody come to me after reading my book, thinking the "I got it" phrase was something different than I intended, but I'll expand on that. I think there's certainly a lot of ego that plays into it, and there's a sense of security for others. For example, my wife, since we moved to North Texas, has become this expert storm tracker — I'm not even kidding, the minute we got off the plane and had our first thunderstorm, she started following all the experts. It's funny, because she knows way more about storms than I do now, yet she's still much more bothered by it. I ignore all of it — if it's going to rain, it's going to rain, we'll deal with it. So I'm naturally the person who says, "we'll deal with it when we get to it, it's not a big deal, we'll be okay." Sometimes I say that without even consciously meaning to — it's just a habit for me to repeat back. Same thing with traveling a lot — I write about this in the book — I'll think, "hey, I'll make my flight, when I get there, I get there, it's no big deal." I say that naturally, and I think it hurts me sometimes, for sure.

The other side of it, and the perspective somebody pointed out to me, is more of a growth-mindset miss. I think people, especially in the leadership world, feel like they have to put out that they have all the answers, all the solutions. So I hear a lot of guys say "I got it," meaning "I understand the objective, I understand what I need to do" — and it's really not happening. I think they're sugarcoating what's actually going on, and they're afraid to say, "hey, I don't actually have it, I need more clarity on this, I need to learn more about this." So it can hit in a couple of different ways, and I'm seeing that in leadership a lot as well.

[Dana] (17:26) That makes a lot of sense, and I've seen this too, heard people talk about it — this fear of admitting they don't know how to do something, because if they admit that, that's failure, and they might be passed over for a promotion, someone else might get ahead of them. I'm wondering if you have any insight on how we could create an environment in the workplace that would allow men to admit, "look, I've got this part on lock, but I don't know much about this part over here — can we team up, can you help me?" What are your thoughts on phrases, words, an atmosphere that could move things in a better direction?

[Dennis] (18:25) Yeah, what I try to do, especially as a leader and also as a father, is explain: hey, I expect you to be as resourceful as you can. I admire that, and you're going to get a lot of credit for being the person who just figures things out and doesn't always have to ask for help. You're going to be more successful than the average person if you do that. However, when you get to the point where you can't figure it out anymore, where you've exhausted the resources, you have to be able to pause and think, "who else can I reach out to, what kind of expert can I go to?" That's the next level. Framing it that way — that you'll be more successful, more admired, because you took that extra step and showed the courage to ask for help — has helped others in my field, and with my children as well.

[Dana] (19:38) I love this example. I'm thinking about how teams work, from a psychological perspective — that could even offer an opportunity to lift up a teammate and help them feel like they have something to contribute, something you need, because you're going to them saying, "hey, I feel like you're an expert in this area, I'm not — can we have coffee for twenty minutes and let me pick your brain?" That seems like it would really help the whole team environment, help everyone feel a little more appreciated and acknowledged for what they know.

[Dennis] (20:17) Sure. Yeah, I use the term "level up" a lot, and being a difference maker. Framing it that way — most people are going to do what you're doing, they're going to figure it out, do all the research they can, but once they get to the point where they can't do it anymore, that's where the next level up happens, that's where changes really start. And also explaining that the pride sitting in the way, thinking "if I go to this person for guidance, they're going to think of me as lesser or weak" — trust me, they're going to be thinking more about how good it feels that you went to them. So it's a mindset shift, and it's been a key unlock many times in my career.

[Dana] (21:12) As you're explaining this, I'm thinking about the word "balance" you used earlier, and about different personality styles on teams. On one end you have someone with a lot of pride who's afraid to admit they don't know the answer — after a while, you can't trust that person, because you know they're going to go too far, they're going to say "I got it" when they don't, and you're wondering when that's going to play out in front of a client. On the other end, you have people who won't ever take initiative, maybe because they lack confidence, and they're always asking "how do I do this," very dependent on those around them. That doesn't work either. So I love the balance you're talking about.

Now, your wife is a recurring voice in your book. What do you think she saw in you that you couldn't see?

[Dennis] (22:29) It's interesting — she often calls me a unicorn, and when I came up with the idea for the book, she said, "Dennis, this isn't going to hit home with anyone, you're unique, I don't know anyone like you." I was able to convince her otherwise, because I've had so many people respond saying, "I'm just like you, I do the same things, maybe a little differently." She only sees what she sees. The biggest part I got from her was centered around the youth coaching piece — she was able to bring to light that I visibly appeared more bothered coaching my kids than other coaches did. We'd get in the car, and she'd say, "are you okay? I could tell you were pacing, getting louder than you normally do — you've got to chill." I'd brush it off at first, but it continued, and it kind of snowballed into other stories.

I'm so passionate about coaching, leading, sports in general, and developing children, that I would have just kept going in that direction — to me, it was normal. I see an opportunity to coach a child, I do it. I see an opportunity to address a referee, I do it. That's what I signed up for as head coach, that's my job. She was able to frame it differently for me: "look, you're acting a little different than other coaches." That's probably been the most impactful thing for my life, and my parenting — she was able to offer that lens.

[Dana] (24:30) When she was making that observation, what do you think she was actually observing? You said she said you act different from other coaches, that you seemed more bothered — with some hindsight now, what do you think was going on with you that was causing those behavioral changes she noticed?

[Dennis] (24:52) Starting off with, say, T-ball, five or six year olds, maybe a little younger — I noticed most coaches were very hands-off, just high fives, "you're doing a great job," very little direction given, which is fine. But I started to notice children who signed up for T-ball would give it a year and not come back, because very quickly in baseball and other sports, kids get exposed — they're a step behind other kids, and it's not fun anymore because they're not playing well, they're getting embarrassed.

I spent a lot of time with my kids playing in the backyard, put in that extra work with them, and saw the difference. Parents started coming up to me saying, "how much does your kid practice, they seem like a natural" — and I'd get offended, I'd say, "my kid's not a natural, I know where he started, I put in the extra work with him." I saw the difference between a child who just goes home and doesn't practice and one who shows up for practice once a week. So my first year of coaching, that carried with me — I continued to be that coach who provided more development, more direction, constant feedback. But then it started to go a little overboard — raising my voice, not necessarily at the kids, sometimes directed at the environment or the other coaches. I saw it work for my child, and it just naturally progressed. That's when she started to notice, "hey, I think you're going a little overboard."

[Dana] (26:56) That makes sense, I totally understand that. So to that point — thinking about coaching as a hobby, or other hobbies men get involved in — what do you think is actually going on when a guy goes all-in on some hobby? We all know guys who go all-in on some hobby for a few years, buying all the stuff, looking it up online, all the things, and then they just drop it. All of a sudden, they drop it, and now there's a garage full of equipment, all this time and money allocated. What's going on at that point, when you see a man doing that?

[Dennis] (27:47) For me, the reason we go all in is it becomes an identity — this is who we want to be. I think it's a way to stay competitive, a way to latch onto something. Once you realize this isn't the identity you want anymore, or it's not working, you completely drop it — it's almost like you want to forget it ever happened, and you latch onto something else. There's some competitiveness to it, some drive — you start a new hobby, you see where you can get to with it. But for most, I think it's an identity thing: I want to be the golfer, or the car guy, or whatever it may be. That's mostly where it comes from.

[Dana] (28:50) So then why do they just automatically stop? What happened to that need to identify with it?

[Dennis] (29:00) Again, for me, it's realizing it's either not working, or it becomes something you feel you failed at — you never got to the level you wanted to be. For example, with golf: I started golfing myself, and my son naturally picked it up. As soon as I realized this wasn't going to be something I'd do for a long time, or reach the level I wanted to, and now my son's into it — it automatically changes, now it's about my son. So I think it's a little bit of giving up, realizing this isn't going to be something I'm going to be amazing at, so why not cut ties with it now. It loses its luster — it's not as sexy as it was in the beginning.

[Dana] (29:57) It's not as novel anymore.

[Dennis] (29:58) Right — and maybe also, reminders from the wife that you're spending too much money on something, that you've gone overboard, help too. So I think for me it's mostly that I'm not getting to where I initially thought I would, and so why don't I cut ties.

[Dana] (30:20) I can totally understand that, and again, back to balance — I can see how in some instances that makes total sense, but in other cases, if somebody had a habit of doing this over and over, with an expectation of themselves as being "a-plus" at something, the whole perfectionism thing — if they're not a-plus, they won't have anything to do with it.

[Dennis] (30:45) Yeah, well, and then there's also my obsessive personality and nature, where I want to be an expert at whatever hobby I have. I mention in the book that I was a wannabe wine connoisseur at one point, pairing meals and all these things, and fast forward a couple of years, I don't even drink it anymore. But at the time, I was really excited and passionate about it, wanted to learn everything about it. So I think that initial burst of energy that goes into learning something new is what carries on and creates the habit, or the obsession, or whatever it is. I don't know if it's like that for most, but for me, for sure, it's that initial burst of energy that also triggers the all-in approach.

[Dana] (31:42) As you're explaining that, I have an observation and a question. The behavior pattern you're describing, being drawn to something novel, wanting to learn something new — that's very common for people with higher levels of intelligence, because they learn quickly, then get bored easily, and want something new. That's fabulous, but I'm also trying to lay that over the business realm. What's your experience been with men and how they can satisfy this need to learn more, to do more, this wiring toward pushing, without burning out? How do they find that balance when they're in a workplace, in leadership, maybe smarter than the average person in the room, or in a room full of very smart people, and wanting that novelty — how do they not take that too far, set that boundary? And along the same line, what if their employer wants them to stay in one particular area because they're fantastic at it, and they start getting burned out because they want something new? What's your experience been with men along these lines?

[Dennis] (33:22) I'll comment on your first point. It's a little easier in leadership to reflect on this, but one of the biggest lessons I've had over time — I used to be the guy sending out emails at midnight or 4:30 in the morning. I still occasionally do, not intentionally, just catching up, or getting up early. What most leaders don't realize is the impact that has on the recipient of that email — some are going to think, "my boss is emailing me at midnight, now I need to respond." One of the biggest learning lessons I had was at an airport one day — I often talk to other business travelers, and that day I happened to be on a midday flight, which I almost never do, usually a 6 or 7 a.m. flight, I don't like flying anything later than 9 a.m., it feels like I'm losing time. I started chatting with a guy and said, "I normally do early morning flights," and he looked at me and said, "I never do early morning flights — I used to, when I was younger."

We got into a conversation, and he basically told me that, especially as a leader, when your pace, your work ethic, becomes your identity, the people who follow you, who work for you, don't just see the results — they see the costs. They start to internalize, "I don't know if I want to do what he does, I don't know that I want to be sending emails at 4 a.m., jumping on a plane at 6 a.m. every Monday." That had a profound effect on me, realizing my pace was potentially putting a damper on others, especially the people who report to me — I don't want them to feel like they have to catch up. That's been a huge shift for me.

As for the novelty piece — I do move on from things pretty quickly, but I have seen others who want to move from one thing to the next, and I can say that I do complete my work, complete my projects. I put excellence and doing things well over quantity, so I'm not someone who wants to move on to the next job or anything like that — I truly want to master my craft in whatever environment I'm in now. But I have seen several people who want to move from one thing to the next.

[Dana] (36:13) Yeah, again, back to balance, trying to figure that out — it's a minefield sometimes, and it's about choices, figuring out how to do it the right way. We are unfortunately out of time today, but Dennis, I know the listeners and viewers want to know how to get a hold of you, how to learn more about you and your book. And since I have the book right here, I'm going to show it — anyone on YouTube will be able to see this. I love it. So, is there a website you'd like them to visit? How would you like them to access you?

[Dennis] (36:53) The best way would be Instagram. It's funny — before I wrote my book, I hadn't done a Facebook post in seven years. I naturally don't have a large audience, I was very rarely on social media, just focused on parenting, work, and taking care of myself. Then I wrote the book and realized I've got to market this thing, so I started an Instagram page, and I've been having a lot of fun with it, trying to keep it light and post content that adheres to a lot of different audiences. It's "keep the edge" on Instagram — keep dot the dot edge. That's the best way to find me. And the book is available exclusively on Amazon, so that's the best way to catch me.

[Dana] (37:53) Fabulous, got it. And that's all going to be in the show notes. Dennis, I really appreciate you spending your precious time, your knowledge, your wisdom, your experience, your stories with myself and all of my listeners and viewers. Thank you very, very much.

[Dennis] (38:12) Yeah, thank you so much for having me, and appreciate your time as well. Take care.

[Dana] (38:16) Now, listeners, viewers, I know you've heard multiple things today that made you think, "I have a friend, a family member, a coworker who needs to hear exactly what Dennis is saying." Take this podcast episode, copy and paste the link, send it in a text, send it in an email, post it on your favorite social media sites, so we can grow our Phoenix and Flame community and let people know: you are not alone. I hope your day has been great. I hope the rest of your day is fantastic. I'm Dana, on Phoenix and Flame.

Are your work boundaries supporting you—or quietly draining you?

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First aired September 6, 2026

Dr. Charleanea Arellano has spent over 30 years as a clinical psychologist and leadership coach, but the framework she's best known for now, the Embodied Narrative Framework, didn't come from a textbook. It came from putting away laundry five years ago and noticing her own body bracing for impact, for no reason at all, at age 55, after decades of actually being safe.

Dr. Arellano built her career studying how high-achieving women lead while carrying nervous systems shaped by trauma, and by the added weight of managing how their race, sexuality, or gender is perceived in the room. As a queer Latina psychologist who didn't come out publicly until 2024, and who spent years often being the only person of color at the table, she's lived the pattern she now helps her clients unwind.

We talk about what a chronically activated nervous system actually feels like in the body, the subtle and not-so-subtle ways bias shows up in a room, why "just get a massage" isn't a real fix for high achievers, and the simple, several-times-a-day nervous system reset she teaches instead.

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In this episode

• Why Dr. Arellano's own healing journey, not her doctorate, is what actually led her to the nervous system work she's known for today
• What it felt like to be the only person of color in the room for decades, and the subtle versus overt ways bias and microaggressions actually show up
• How to tell when your nervous system is activated, from bracing for impact to chronic anxiety, and why it starts in the body, not the mind
• The physical toll of years of unresolved activation: TMJ, chronic headaches, fatigue, digestive issues, and more
• Why women and men are socialized to handle stress so differently, and what that means for high-achieving women specifically
• The several-times-a-day nervous system reset Dr. Arellano teaches her clients, and why it only takes seconds
• Balancing connection and protection with family members who caused real harm, and what it looks like to set a boundary without needing them to understand it

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet psychologist and Embodied Narrative Framework founder Dr. Charleanea Arellano
• (03:07) Her path into psychology: curiosity about human behavior, a high school class, and a PhD by 29
• (05:26) "We are a version of our perfect client": how her own experience as a high achiever managing perceptions shaped her work
• (07:52) The subtle and overt ways bias shows up in a room, from stopped conversations to backhanded compliments
• (11:49) Stepping away from the professional world in 2003 after years of navigating belonging and credibility
• (13:24) What it actually feels like when your nervous system is activated: bracing, anxiety, and the body's fight-or-run response
• (20:35) The chronic physical toll: TMJ, headaches, fatigue, digestive issues, and chronic pain
• (24:30) Why women carry stress differently than men, and what that means for high-achieving women
• (25:57) The several-times-a-day nervous system reset, and why "just get a massage" doesn't work for high achievers
• (33:36) Her books: the memoir Terrible Gifts and The Last Dance, on intergenerational trauma with her father
• (37:01) Balancing connection and protection: boundaries with family members who caused real harm
• (40:06) Where to find Dr. Arellano and her work

About Dr. Charleanea Arellano

Dr. Charleanea Arellano is a licensed psychologist and Board Certified Life Coach with over 30 years of clinical and leadership experience, and the founder of the Embodied Narrative Framework. A queer Latina psychologist, she helps high-achieving women understand how nervous system patterns, trauma-adapted achievement, and the added stress of managing how their race, sexuality, or gender is perceived shape the way they decide, lead, and relate to success.

Her own healing journey, including decades of navigating rooms where she was often the only person of color, informs her work today. She's the author of the forthcoming memoir Terrible Gifts: Finding the Light in the Darkest of Places, and The Last Dance, which explores intergenerational trauma through her relationship with her father.

Learn more at Dr. Charleanea's website, or connect with her on LinkedIn.

Favorite quotes

"We are a version of our perfect client." —Dr. Charleanea Arellano "It starts with the nervous system. The nervous system is online before we have any conscious thought about it. It's running the show." —Dr. Charleanea Arellano "This is hygiene. This is another form of hygiene — nervous system hygiene that you do throughout the day." —Dr. Charleanea Arellano, on why a 30-second reset matters as much as brushing your teeth

Resources mentioned

• Dr. Charleanea's website: home to her coaching practice and more on the Embodied Narrative Framework
• Terrible Gifts: Finding the Light in the Darkest of Places: Dr. Arellano's forthcoming memoir, currently in the publication process
• The Last Dance: her book on intergenerational trauma, told through her relationship with her father
• Dr. Charleanea Arellano on LinkedIn

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First aired August 23, 2026

Annette Mullin spent 24 years with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, nine of them as a crisis negotiator, eventually leading one of the busiest negotiation teams in the country â€" averaging over 100 call-outs a year. She worked patrol, sexual assault, internal affairs, and homicide, becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant, before spending her final years as the department's director of employee wellness in the aftermath of the October 1 Mandalay Bay shooting, the largest mass shooting in U.S. history.

Now a negotiation instructor and coach at the Black Swan Group, founded by former FBI lead hostage negotiator Chris Voss, Annette translates those high-stakes lessons into practical tools for leaders, teams, and individuals navigating pressure, conflict, and growth.

We talk about the universal need she discovered in every person she ever negotiated with, why the crime itself is almost always a secondary issue, what "tactical empathy" actually looks like in practice, and why most of us were never actually taught how to listen.

Watch this episode Youtube episode link here In this episode

• How the O.J. Simpson case and a criminalistics program in LA sparked Annette's path into crime scene investigation, and why she chose Las Vegas over LAPD
• Joining LVMPD's crisis negotiation team, and what made Las Vegas's team one of the busiest in the country
• Becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant, and the advice that helped her navigate a male-dominated field without making it about gender
• Why removing assumptions, and getting curious instead of judgmental, changed how she worked with people in crisis
• The universal need Annette discovered every person in crisis shares, no matter how different the circumstances
• Why the crime itself is almost always a secondary issue, and what's usually driving it underneath
• How Chris Voss's "tactical empathy" model, from Never Split the Difference, turns negotiation into collaboration instead of a tug-of-war
• The five levels of listening Black Swan teaches, and why most of us are trained to listen to respond instead of to understand

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet retired LVMPD crisis negotiator Annette Mullin
• (02:23) From the East Coast to Las Vegas: the O.J. Simpson case and her path into crime scene investigation
• (04:42) Joining the crisis negotiation team, and Las Vegas's brutal call-out numbers
• (06:36) Retiring after serving as director of employee wellness following the October 1 Mandalay Bay shooting
• (08:15) What drew her to law enforcement as a kid, from Nancy Drew to Quincy, M.E.
• (10:10) Navigating gender in a male-dominated field, and becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant
• (14:00) Removing assumptions: why curiosity beats judgment when someone has "a chip on their shoulder"
• (16:52) The universal need every person in crisis shares, and why that surprised her most
• (20:05) Why the crime is almost always the secondary issue
• (24:28) From hostage negotiation to the boardroom: Chris Voss, Black Swan Group, and tactical empathy
• (28:43) The biggest obstacle to listening, and the five levels of listening Black Swan teaches
• (31:50) The number one struggle business leaders bring to her, and why practicing in "low stakes" moments matters
• (34:12) Where to find Annette, Black Swan Group, and the new book Fight Less, Win More

About Annette Mullin

Annette Mullin is a retired Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department leader with 24 years of law enforcement experience, including nine years as a crisis negotiator and eventual leader of LVMPD's crisis negotiation team, one of the busiest in the country. Over her career she worked patrol, community policing, sexual assault, internal affairs, and homicide, becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant, before serving as the department's director of employee wellness in the aftermath of the October 1 Mandalay Bay shooting.

Now a negotiation instructor and coach at the Black Swan Group, founded by former FBI lead hostage negotiator Chris Voss, Annette teaches the principles behind Never Split the Difference, including tactical empathy, to leaders, teams, and individuals navigating pressure and conflict in business and life.

Learn more at the Black Swan Group, or connect with Annette on LinkedIn.

Favorite quotes "There is a universal need for every person to be heard, to be seen, and to be understood." "Not everybody is like you. Removing assumptions was really key, let them show you or tell you." "If I read a book about working out every week but never lift a weight, I can't expect to see anything different." Resources mentioned

• Black Swan Group: negotiation training founded by former FBI lead hostage negotiator Chris Voss
• Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss: the book that brings hostage-negotiation principles like tactical empathy into business and everyday life
• Fight Less, Win More: Chris Voss's newest book, adapting those same skills for personal relationships
• Annette Mullin on LinkedIn

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If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Ready to find your own voice on stage? Dana's a big fan of Mic Drop Academy, a public speaking and group coaching program built for women. Watch the free webinar, join a workshop, or dive into the bootcamp to build the confidence to speak up and be heard.

First aired August 16, 2026

For over a decade, Dave Mowry couldn't get out of bed, couldn't shower, and couldn't walk to his own mailbox without waiting until dark so a neighbor wouldn't catch the look in his eyes. In 1994, a psychotic break sent the successful businessman and family man into a depression so deep it cost him his house, his career, and 14 years he calls his "lost years." He slept in his clothes for months at a time. At parties, he'd stand against the wall and pray no one came over to talk to him.

Then, at his wife's urging, he walked into a stand-up comedy class for people living with mental illness, and by the second session, something shifted: he started looking for the joke inside the pain. Dave is now a bestselling author, a blogger with over a million reads, a peer support specialist, and, in his own words, "a comic who shatters stigma one joke at a time."

We get into what clinical depression actually feels like from the inside, why his wife is the true hero of his story, how a ten-week comedy class became group therapy in disguise, the gentle suicide joke that helped save a young man's life, and why people in the mental health field need to stop trying to "protect" the very people they're meant to be supporting.

Watch this episode

In this episode

• Why a 1994 psychotic break sent a successful businessman into 14 "lost years" of homelessness and depression
• What clinical depression actually feels like: the showers he couldn't take, the mailbox trips timed for after dark, and the panic attacks that came out of nowhere
• Why "just do something small," like sitting in a different chair, was enough to keep Dave from getting stuck in hopelessness
• What family members need to understand about mental illness, and how Dave's wife became "the hero of his story"
• How a NAMI stand-up comedy class turned Dave's pain into laugh-out-loud jokes, and eventually a sold-out show at Helium Comedy Club
• Dave's gentle suicide joke, why it works, and the night it helped save a young man's life
• Why people in the helping professions need to stop trying to "save" people with mental illness and start supporting them instead

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet comic and mental health advocate Dave Mowry
• (01:16) The 1994 psychotic break, and the 14 "lost years" that followed
• (03:56) What clinical depression actually feels like: showers, blending into the wall, panic attacks
• (07:10) The exhausting weight of "just getting out of bed"
• (08:41) Don't get stuck: the small, deliberate choices that kept hope alive
• (10:15) What family members need to understand: it's not a moral failing
• (11:26) Dave's wife, the true hero of his story
• (14:34) Finding NAMI's stand-up comedy class, and the moment humor clicked
• (17:59) Selling out Helium Comedy Club, and becoming "a thing"
• (19:51) Blogging, "OMG, that's me," and shattering stigma one joke at a time
• (25:32) Teaching comedy: the setup, the punchline, and getting students to open up
• (26:10) Dave's gentle suicide joke, and the night it helped save a life
• (32:42) Boundaries, mania, and giving himself permission to say no
• (37:25) Where to find Dave, his books, and how to reach him

About Dave Mowry

Dave Mowry is a bestselling author, blogger, and stand-up comic who shatters stigma one joke at a time. After a 1994 psychotic break led to 14 "lost years" of severe depression, homelessness, and hospitalization, Dave found his way back through NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) and a stand-up comedy class for people living with mental illness. He went on to sell out Portland's Helium Comedy Club, teach comedy classes to people living with mental illness, and become a peer support specialist. He's the author of OMG, That's Me! and Healing with Humor, and his blog for bphope.com has been read over a million times.

Learn more and get in touch at Dave's website, or reach him directly at [email protected].

Favorite quotes

"It's not a moral failing. It's a medical condition." —Dave Mowry "Afterwards, I called my wife for help. She said, 'There are more pills under the sink.'" —Dave Mowry, on the gentle suicide joke that's helped save lives "We don't need to be saved. Support us and all that, but don't try to save us. We don't need it." —Dave Mowry

Resources mentioned

• Dave's website: home to his books and a contact form
• OMG, That's Me!: Dave's bestselling book on what it's really like to live with a mental illness, available on Amazon and Kindle
• Healing with Humor: Dave's newest book, telling the story of six comedy-class students and their transformation
• NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness): the organization that connected Dave to the comedy class that changed his life
• Helium Comedy Club (Portland): where Dave's class sold out a 185-seat show

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In this episode, Dana is joined by Kurt Bush, a trauma-informed coach who helps leaders move from imposter syndrome to authentic confidence. Kurt shares his own journey with imposter syndrome, from feeling like a fraud in corporate leadership meetings to realizing his true calling. He explains that to make a change, the pain of staying the same must become greater than the pain of changing, a threshold many of us fear crossing. Kurt introduces the ERT (Encounter + Reflection = Transformation) framework, a practical approach to help you get unstuck. He reveals why the first step to moving forward is often learning to "start stopping" the things that drain your energy, allowing you to create a life that is truly aligned with who you are. Kurt's Website

Kurt's Linkedin -------------

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A midlife crisis isn't actually a crisis. That's the challenge Jody Brooks puts to anyone who's ever felt lost, restless, or quietly convinced something's wrong with them somewhere around 40 or 50: what looks like burnout, and what people love to write off as a freakout, is more often a calling. His own arrived at lunchtime at the office, buzzing canteen and all, when he found himself sitting in a restroom cubicle, crying so hard he could barely breathe. No brutal meeting that morning. No disaster. Just the quiet moment his body picked to file its formal complaint: burnout wasn't a "rough patch" anymore, it was a full-body shutdown.

I've been a therapist for 18 years, and I can tell you: high performers do this. We white-knuckle through "one more day" (and one more, and one more) until the body stops asking politely. Sound familiar? Jody is a UK-based midlife and burnout coach who once survived 52 flights in eight months of what he calls "jazz hands" performing, and his calling-not-crisis framework is asking you to come home to yourself.

We get into how to spot the full-body warning signs before you hit your own cubicle moment, how to settle anxiety in the moment it spikes (not three weeks and one forced sabbatical later), and Jody's wonderfully backwards first step for anyone feeling stuck: don't start something new. Start stopping.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfi9lec7n2o

In this episode

• Why burnout can feel like "just a bad day" until it suddenly isn't, and how to recognize the full-body warning signs before you hit the wall
• Why a midlife crisis isn't really a crisis at all: it's a calling to reconnect with who you actually are
• The anxiety-regulation technique Jody uses with coaching clients to come back from a stress spiral in real time
• Why you can't be "out of alignment" until you know what alignment actually means, and how to find your starting point
• The "start stopping" exercise for anyone who wants change but doesn't know where to begin
• How understanding your core values turns boundaries from something scary into something guilt-free

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet midlife and burnout coach Jody Brooks
• (01:47) The restroom-cubicle "pile of ash" moment: burnout as a full-body shutdown
• (04:34) The three-hour drive home, and the decision to stop
• (06:43) Fear, anxiety, and the "one small thing" that finally breaks us
• (10:10) Jody's technique for regulating anxiety and stress in the moment
• (13:59) What alignment really means (and the bus analogy)
• (19:39) Why younger generations and midlifers experience burnout differently
• (24:37) The blank-page moment: reclaiming your story through empowerment
• (25:43) "Start stopping": Jody's first step for anyone feeling stuck
• (29:21) Boundaries, core values, and why saying no is an act of service
• (33:17) Where to find Jody and his free resources

About Jody Brooks

Jody Brooks is a UK-based midlife and burnout coach and the founder of Authentic Coaching. After burning out during a high-pressure international career in education (one stretch included 52 flights in eight months) he developed the nine principles of authentic living, a practical framework that helps people turn crisis into connection and sustainable well-being.

Learn more and join his free community at Jody's website, or connect with him on LinkedIn.

Favorite quotes "I actually can't go back." —Jody Brooks, on the moment burnout finally broke through "Start stopping. Stopping what no longer serves you." —Jody Brooks "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there." —Jody Brooks Resources mentioned

• AuthenticCoaching.me: Jody's website and free community, home to the "Start Stopping" exercise and the anxiety-regulation technique he mentions on the show
• Jody's nine principles of authentic living (his coaching framework, discussed throughout the episode)
• Jody Brooks on LinkedIn

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If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

Two in the morning. Sitting on the toilet, clothed, bawling into a pillow, because a broken PC was the last thing standing between him and the self-employed life he wanted so badly he could feel it in his teeth. That's where my guest this week hit rock bottom: not one dramatic collapse, but months of computer problems piling on top of a dream that felt like it was never going to happen. A client shared one quote with him that day, and Aaron Ryan has carried it in his back pocket for almost twenty years since: "The temptation to quit is always greatest just before your greatest success."

Aaron is an award-winning, bestselling author of the six-book Dissonance alien invasion saga (one installment is being pitched to streaming networks right now), plus dozens of other titles across sci-fi, historical fiction, and children's books, and he's also a working voice actor. We talk about the "Illuminati" he ran into at the top of the voiceover industry, the sting of writing 300 blog posts meant to encourage people only to be told they were "nothing," and why he walked away from that world entirely to go back to his first love: storytelling. Aaron also shares his best advice for anyone starting out as a writer (be authentic, steer clear of generative AI, and grow thick skin fast), and the 9/11 historical novel he wrote as an act of catharsis, imagining a world where the attacks never happened.

If you've ever felt like an imposter next to people who seem to have it all figured out, or you're right on the edge of giving up on something you can feel in your teeth, this conversation is the reminder that the breakdown right before the breakthrough is often just... the process.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHeG1Oqaspc

In this episode

• The quote Aaron has carried for almost 20 years, and the two memory sticks that changed his entire career
• Why running into "the Illuminati" of the voiceover industry, and being told his encouragement blogs were "nothing," turned out to be his breakthrough in disguise
• Aaron's advice for anyone who wants to write a book: be authentic, avoid generative AI, and grow thick skin fast
• Why holding a finished book in your hands matters more than whether anyone buys it
• How Aaron turned personal catharsis into fiction, including a 9/11 historical novel where the attacks never happen
• What "breakdown to breakthrough, wash, rinse, repeat" really looks like over a creative career

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet award-winning author Aaron Ryan
• (01:38) The Dissonance saga, Hollywood pitches, and film festival wins
• (03:04) The young author's club at age 10, and being "fated" to write
• (04:39) Advice for new writers: be authentic, avoid AI, grow thick skin
• (07:38) Imposter syndrome, and the 7,500 books published on Amazon every day
• (09:57) "The Electric Boy": writing his first "book" at age seven
• (13:20) Why Aaron writes sci-fi, post-apocalyptic, and dystopian fiction
• (16:57) The "Illuminati" of the voiceover industry, and walking away from it
• (22:46) 2007: leaving full-time work, and the PC that wouldn't stop breaking
• (24:12) Bawling into a pillow at 2am, and the quote that changed everything
• (26:31) Breakdown to breakthrough, wash, rinse, repeat
• (28:31) Aaron's favorite books: The End Omega, and a 9/11 novel where the attacks never happen
• (35:00) Where to find Aaron and his books

About Aaron Ryan

Aaron Ryan is an award-winning and best-selling author, speaker, panelist, workshop presenter, and voice actor. He's the author of the six-book Dissonance alien invasion saga (currently being pitched to streaming networks), the Christian dystopian series The End, the 9/11 historical fiction novel Forecast, and dozens of other titles across sci-fi, historical fiction, and children's books. He lives in Washington with his wife, two sons, and a small menagerie of pets.

Learn more at Aaron's website, or join his free community for screenplay updates, discount codes, giveaways, and appearances.

Favorite quotes "The temptation to quit is always greatest just before your greatest success." —a line Aaron Ryan has carried in his back pocket for almost 20 years "If you can steer clear of AI, please do. Don't outsource your work to a chip." —Aaron Ryan "I must create or I'm gonna blow up, I'll explode." —Aaron Ryan Resources mentioned

• AuthorAaronRyan.com: Aaron's website, with links to all his books and social channels
• Aaron's free Facebook community: screenplay status updates, discount codes, giveaways, and appearances
• Dissonance, Aaron's six-book alien invasion saga
• The End Omega, the finale of Aaron's Christian dystopian series
• Forecast, Aaron's 9/11 historical fiction novel

Related episodes

• From Rock Bottom to Mountain Top: Interview with Kevin Palmieri: another guest's road from the bottom back up
• From Tragedy to Triumph: Rhonda Britten's Path to a Fearless Life: more on turning devastation into a fearless second act
• From the Edge of Suicide to the Grace of Grief: another raw conversation about finding hope in the darkest moment

Subscribe & connect

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz