Phoenix and Flame Podcast

First aired September 6, 2026

Dennis Bairos oversees more than 29 fitness locations across Texas, and somewhere between the grand openings and the late-night emails, he noticed a pattern: he was the guy who'd rather miss a flight than admit he needed help, the coach whose sideline energy made his own wife ask if he was okay, and the traveler who'd rather squeeze in one more phone call than let 20 free minutes in a rental car go to waste.

That pattern became his book, Wired Like This: Why Men Push Too Far and Still Say, I Got It!, a look at the small, everyday decisions at home, at work, and on the sideline of a kid's game that shape how men actually behave, often without them noticing.

We talk about why "I got it" might be the most dangerous phrase a man can say, the difference between healthy work ethic and ego-driven burnout, why men go all-in on a hobby and then abandon it completely, and how his wife became the one voice who could see what he couldn't.

Watch this episode

https://youtu.be/sRsXcIgmVAo

In this episode

• Why "I got it" might be the most dangerous phrase men say, and the ego hiding underneath it
• How Dennis's competitive, all-or-nothing wiring showed up coaching his kids' T-ball team, and the moment his wife had to tell him he'd gone overboard
• The real story behind missing a flight because he couldn't stop multitasking, even for a 20-minute drive to the airport
• Why work ethic can be a genuine skill and a trap at the same time, and how to tell the difference before it becomes burnout
• What's actually happening when a man goes all-in on a hobby, buys all the gear, and then drops it completely a year later
• How framing "asking for help" as the next level of leadership, instead of a weakness, changes the way teams operate
• Why a leader's pace becomes part of their identity, and the hidden cost that pace puts on everyone who reports to them

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Dennis Bairos, author of Wired Like This
• (00:57) His background in high-growth fitness leadership, and how that pace carried over to parenting
• (03:51) "Stop half-assing it": the moment Dana's own son called out her push, push, push mentality
• (05:54) Is "I got it" a male trait, or does Dana see it in women too?
• (08:38) The fear of slowing down: work ethic, ego, and the competition to be first in, last out
• (12:06) The missed flight: a real-time example of multitasking costing more than it saves
• (14:55) Why "I got it" might be the most dangerous thing men say
• (18:25) Reframing asking for help as the next level of leadership, not a weakness
• (22:13) What his wife saw in his coaching that he couldn't see in himself
• (24:52) The T-ball season that revealed his coaching had gone overboard
• (27:13) Why men go all-in on a hobby, then drop it completely
• (33:22) The airport conversation that changed how he leads: why a leader's pace becomes their identity
• (36:53) Where to find Dennis, his book, and his Instagram

About Dennis Bairos

Dennis Bairos is the author of Wired Like This: Why Men Push Too Far and Still Say, I Got It! A husband and father of three, he oversees more than 29 fitness locations across Texas as a senior leader in high-growth, high-volume organizations. He writes about the small, everyday decisions at home, at work, and on the sideline of a kid's game that shape how men actually behave.

Connect with Dennis on Instagram or LinkedIn. His book, Wired Like This, is available exclusively on Amazon.

Favorite quotes "I got it" might be the most dangerous thing men say. —Dennis Bairos "When your pace becomes your identity, the people who follow you don't just see the results — they see the costs." —Dennis Bairos "You will be more successful, and looked at as someone that's admired a little bit more, because you took that extra step and showed courage to ask for help." —Dennis Bairos Resources mentioned

• Wired Like This: Why Men Push Too Far and Still Say, I Got It!: Dennis's book, available exclusively on Amazon
• Dennis on Instagram: @keep.the.edge
• Dennis Bairos on LinkedIn

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Read the full transcript

[Dana] (00:01) Welcome, friends. Whether you're out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it's wonderful to connect with you. Joining us today is Dennis Bairos. Dennis is the author of Wired Like This: Why Men Push Too Far and Still Say, I Got It! He's a husband, a father of three, with a background in senior leadership. He writes about the small, everyday decisions at home, at work, on the sideline of a kid's game, that shape how men actually behave. Dennis, welcome to Phoenix and Flame.

[Dennis] (00:47) Yeah, thanks for having me. Guilty — yeah, all of that's correct. I did write that book. Happy to be here, and looking forward to the conversation.

[Dana] (00:57) This is fantastic. First of all, I'm interested in a bit of your background. You said you were in senior leadership — since I do a lot of work in the corporate space, helping people with burnout, that was one of the things that drew me to you: the masculine, the male mindset that could possibly trip somebody up at work. I work with high performers, and they say the things that are in your book. So I want to create some space for you to share — what experiences have you had in senior leadership, what have you noticed there, and also with your family, and how these things helped you arrive at writing a book?

[Dennis] (01:47) Yeah, so I've been in the fitness industry for quite some time — practically my entire career. Most of the organizations I've been with, including the current one, have been really high-volume, high-growth companies. I currently oversee over 29 locations here in Texas, big-box fitness spaces, so really rampant growth. Most of my career, I've had to move pretty fast — it's nonstop. I've had to work a lot, and most of it is self-induced, just me trying to keep up and trying to be a high performer myself. I think that's natural for me — I'm a natural leader, so I'm always taking probably more ownership than the average person. And that's carried over to my family and my children.

I noticed early on that I brought that over to my kids as well. Once they started getting into youth sports, that drive, that push, the long practices, the long hours — it's funny, on a podcast last week I was asked, "do you feel like you're bringing over your own competitiveness from your past as a child competing in sports?" And I thought about it for a second — I don't think so. I don't have this unsettled, failed athletic career I'm trying to settle through my children. I think it's just natural for me to push, to teach kids that if you want to get better at something, you've got to keep practicing, keep moving. I'm kind of an all-or-nothing person. I don't watch many sports, but the ones I do, I'm all in, a diehard fan. That's really how I run my life — it's very much natural.

[Dana] (03:51) I love this description. I'm taking notes as you're talking, because I don't want to interrupt you. I'd like to be able to say the same — no, I'm a very competitive person. I get bruises playing musical chairs, and that's not hyperbole — I literally had bruises from my shoulders to my ankles playing musical chairs one year at a fall festival at my church. So I'm thinking of the phrase, "if you're not bleeding, you're not playing." I have three kids as well, and my husband is also a very competitive person. And my youngest son confronted me, appropriately so, one time — I'd said to him one too many times, "stop half-assing it," and he called me on it. I feel like it was appropriate, because I was so in my own head about push, push, push, push, and he'd had it — I'd gone too far. I think that's a lot of what you're talking about in your book, and I want to hear more.

Your book is focused on men, and I want to ask — if your experience has been, not necessarily with your daughter, but with coworkers, friends — do you feel like this can be a personality style? Have you run into men who didn't have this "I got it, I'm not going to use GPS, I'm going to figure this out" kind of drive? How much of that do you feel is a male trait, which I think a lot of people would agree with, and have you seen these traits in some of the women you've interacted with as well?

[Dennis] (05:54) Certainly. From a female perspective — my wife and I, the dynamic between us — my wife works incredibly hard, works remote, homeschools all three of our children, works out every day, but she's got this self-regulation in her that I don't seem to have, or at least mine doesn't work the same way. She'll come up with reasons to sleep and the need for sleeping, and I come up with reasons not to sleep. Even though I have a fitness-minded background and know the importance of it, for whatever reason, I can't seem to sleep past 6 a.m. on a Saturday. So I see similarities across the board.

What's interesting is when I released the book, I started getting calls and texts, or I'd run into people — men who I'd think have completely different personalities from mine. Guys who don't have children, don't participate in sports, aren't ultra-competitive — they'd read my book and tell me, "we're a lot alike." I found that interesting. There are so many patterns and similarities, whatever it may be, male or female — I'm focusing on the male perspective because that's who I'm mostly around, but at the surface it may look a little different, while deep down there are drives in people that are very similar.

[Dana] (07:37) I get that. You pointed out something in your book I thought was really interesting, especially given my exposure to high performers — I've had them in my office on FMLA, having panic attacks, because they just push, push, push and don't know how to set boundaries. I'm known as the Queen of Boundaries, and they didn't know how to set them, they were just pushing. There's this idea in your book — this feeling that if you slow down, if you're not the first one there, not the first one with the answer, if you bring it down from 85 miles an hour to 55, you're simply going to lose out, someone else is going to get there first. I think that's such a common experience. Tell us more about your experience with that, people you've seen, and what's in your book about it.

[Dennis] (08:38) Yeah, I can offer two perspectives. One is, as I grew up, work ethic was, and still is, really my main skill. I think that for people like me, we believe that if you work harder than most people, you're going to be much further ahead. I think that can be true in many cases, and it carries on naturally for me. The other side of it is the ego and the pride — I think that still exists in so many pieces of business and leadership. When I travel a lot for work, and we do grand openings for new locations, there's a lot of executive leadership there, peers of mine, and there's almost this competition of who's going to leave first, who's going to stay later. It's so silly, but it drives people — who's going to be the first to leave, who's going to be last, who's putting in longer hours. I think that exists, and subconsciously it fuels exactly what we do in some cases.

So I think work ethic is still a main skill, a trait that carries most people further than others. And there's a lot of talk and a lot of opinions being thrown around about younger generations and how their work ethic is lesser or whatnot, so I think it's even more amplified now, trying to show younger generations that you do need to put in the work. But you've got to find the balance, and avoid that hot word: burnout.

[Dana] (10:40) That's a big deal. I love the word "balance," because that's it, in a big way. It's sort of like if you go too far with push, push, push, push, you're going to burn out if you add too many things. But on the other hand, if you don't have some kind of work ethic, then yes, other people are going to perform better than you, and they're going to get the raises, the promotions — that's just how life works. It's trying to find that balance.

You mentioned something in your book about the cold plunge, and I love this example. I'd like to hear you talk about how we sometimes add things like that, thinking, "this is going to give me the edge, this is a good idea" — and there's always another good idea around the corner. I'm interested in your thoughts about the short game versus the long game, because in terms of burnout, how many things can we add that make us look fantastic in the short game, but we're not going to last long doing all of that? What was your experience, and your thoughts, on the cold plunge and cracking that ice outside?

[Dennis] (12:06) Well, I'll give you a great example — I do write about this. I consider myself not a professional multitasker, but certainly someone who just lives on that most of my days and weeks. I'm conscious about it — I'm like, hey, Dennis, you're doing too much, you should stop. But I'm just wired like that, where I have to find every opportunity to use up my time. Not long ago, I was traveling for work, heading to one city for an interview, then right back to the airport to another city, where I'd be for a couple of days. I'm in the rental car driving to the airport, and I thought, I've got about 20 or 25 minutes, I need to make a couple of calls. When I'm in work mode, there's no podcast, no music — I'm just trying to find every single thing I can do throughout the day. So I take two calls, pull up to the airport, disconnect the Bluetooth, put my headphones in, wave the rental car woman off, start walking to the terminal.

I get to TSA, grab my briefcase, and I'm like, wait, where's my carry-on? I left it in the car. I'm walking back, finally finish my phone call, of course — call my wife, let her know. I said, "hey, I left my carry-on, just a heads up." She's like, "are you going to make it?" And without a doubt, I'm like, "yeah, I'm going to make it, it's only a five-minute walk." I get back and the car is gone, nowhere to be found. I'm sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting. That's a mistake I often make, and I'll reflect on it, but it's sometimes hard to peel back — the multitasking, trying to cram everything into every minute. It cost me: I missed my flight.

[Dana] (14:16) Oh my gosh, that is such a useful and practical example. I'm sure listeners right now, or viewers on YouTube, are thinking, "yeah, I've done that, I know what that's like" — like spinning so many plates that they just start dropping. You write that "I got it" might be the most dangerous thing men say. Talk about that — what do you mean, and why do you feel like that could be the most dangerous thing men say?

[Dennis] (14:55) I've seen it in a couple of different ways. Interestingly, I actually had somebody come to me after reading my book, thinking the "I got it" phrase was something different than I intended, but I'll expand on that. I think there's certainly a lot of ego that plays into it, and there's a sense of security for others. For example, my wife, since we moved to North Texas, has become this expert storm tracker — I'm not even kidding, the minute we got off the plane and had our first thunderstorm, she started following all the experts. It's funny, because she knows way more about storms than I do now, yet she's still much more bothered by it. I ignore all of it — if it's going to rain, it's going to rain, we'll deal with it. So I'm naturally the person who says, "we'll deal with it when we get to it, it's not a big deal, we'll be okay." Sometimes I say that without even consciously meaning to — it's just a habit for me to repeat back. Same thing with traveling a lot — I write about this in the book — I'll think, "hey, I'll make my flight, when I get there, I get there, it's no big deal." I say that naturally, and I think it hurts me sometimes, for sure.

The other side of it, and the perspective somebody pointed out to me, is more of a growth-mindset miss. I think people, especially in the leadership world, feel like they have to put out that they have all the answers, all the solutions. So I hear a lot of guys say "I got it," meaning "I understand the objective, I understand what I need to do" — and it's really not happening. I think they're sugarcoating what's actually going on, and they're afraid to say, "hey, I don't actually have it, I need more clarity on this, I need to learn more about this." So it can hit in a couple of different ways, and I'm seeing that in leadership a lot as well.

[Dana] (17:26) That makes a lot of sense, and I've seen this too, heard people talk about it — this fear of admitting they don't know how to do something, because if they admit that, that's failure, and they might be passed over for a promotion, someone else might get ahead of them. I'm wondering if you have any insight on how we could create an environment in the workplace that would allow men to admit, "look, I've got this part on lock, but I don't know much about this part over here — can we team up, can you help me?" What are your thoughts on phrases, words, an atmosphere that could move things in a better direction?

[Dennis] (18:25) Yeah, what I try to do, especially as a leader and also as a father, is explain: hey, I expect you to be as resourceful as you can. I admire that, and you're going to get a lot of credit for being the person who just figures things out and doesn't always have to ask for help. You're going to be more successful than the average person if you do that. However, when you get to the point where you can't figure it out anymore, where you've exhausted the resources, you have to be able to pause and think, "who else can I reach out to, what kind of expert can I go to?" That's the next level. Framing it that way — that you'll be more successful, more admired, because you took that extra step and showed the courage to ask for help — has helped others in my field, and with my children as well.

[Dana] (19:38) I love this example. I'm thinking about how teams work, from a psychological perspective — that could even offer an opportunity to lift up a teammate and help them feel like they have something to contribute, something you need, because you're going to them saying, "hey, I feel like you're an expert in this area, I'm not — can we have coffee for twenty minutes and let me pick your brain?" That seems like it would really help the whole team environment, help everyone feel a little more appreciated and acknowledged for what they know.

[Dennis] (20:17) Sure. Yeah, I use the term "level up" a lot, and being a difference maker. Framing it that way — most people are going to do what you're doing, they're going to figure it out, do all the research they can, but once they get to the point where they can't do it anymore, that's where the next level up happens, that's where changes really start. And also explaining that the pride sitting in the way, thinking "if I go to this person for guidance, they're going to think of me as lesser or weak" — trust me, they're going to be thinking more about how good it feels that you went to them. So it's a mindset shift, and it's been a key unlock many times in my career.

[Dana] (21:12) As you're explaining this, I'm thinking about the word "balance" you used earlier, and about different personality styles on teams. On one end you have someone with a lot of pride who's afraid to admit they don't know the answer — after a while, you can't trust that person, because you know they're going to go too far, they're going to say "I got it" when they don't, and you're wondering when that's going to play out in front of a client. On the other end, you have people who won't ever take initiative, maybe because they lack confidence, and they're always asking "how do I do this," very dependent on those around them. That doesn't work either. So I love the balance you're talking about.

Now, your wife is a recurring voice in your book. What do you think she saw in you that you couldn't see?

[Dennis] (22:29) It's interesting — she often calls me a unicorn, and when I came up with the idea for the book, she said, "Dennis, this isn't going to hit home with anyone, you're unique, I don't know anyone like you." I was able to convince her otherwise, because I've had so many people respond saying, "I'm just like you, I do the same things, maybe a little differently." She only sees what she sees. The biggest part I got from her was centered around the youth coaching piece — she was able to bring to light that I visibly appeared more bothered coaching my kids than other coaches did. We'd get in the car, and she'd say, "are you okay? I could tell you were pacing, getting louder than you normally do — you've got to chill." I'd brush it off at first, but it continued, and it kind of snowballed into other stories.

I'm so passionate about coaching, leading, sports in general, and developing children, that I would have just kept going in that direction — to me, it was normal. I see an opportunity to coach a child, I do it. I see an opportunity to address a referee, I do it. That's what I signed up for as head coach, that's my job. She was able to frame it differently for me: "look, you're acting a little different than other coaches." That's probably been the most impactful thing for my life, and my parenting — she was able to offer that lens.

[Dana] (24:30) When she was making that observation, what do you think she was actually observing? You said she said you act different from other coaches, that you seemed more bothered — with some hindsight now, what do you think was going on with you that was causing those behavioral changes she noticed?

[Dennis] (24:52) Starting off with, say, T-ball, five or six year olds, maybe a little younger — I noticed most coaches were very hands-off, just high fives, "you're doing a great job," very little direction given, which is fine. But I started to notice children who signed up for T-ball would give it a year and not come back, because very quickly in baseball and other sports, kids get exposed — they're a step behind other kids, and it's not fun anymore because they're not playing well, they're getting embarrassed.

I spent a lot of time with my kids playing in the backyard, put in that extra work with them, and saw the difference. Parents started coming up to me saying, "how much does your kid practice, they seem like a natural" — and I'd get offended, I'd say, "my kid's not a natural, I know where he started, I put in the extra work with him." I saw the difference between a child who just goes home and doesn't practice and one who shows up for practice once a week. So my first year of coaching, that carried with me — I continued to be that coach who provided more development, more direction, constant feedback. But then it started to go a little overboard — raising my voice, not necessarily at the kids, sometimes directed at the environment or the other coaches. I saw it work for my child, and it just naturally progressed. That's when she started to notice, "hey, I think you're going a little overboard."

[Dana] (26:56) That makes sense, I totally understand that. So to that point — thinking about coaching as a hobby, or other hobbies men get involved in — what do you think is actually going on when a guy goes all-in on some hobby? We all know guys who go all-in on some hobby for a few years, buying all the stuff, looking it up online, all the things, and then they just drop it. All of a sudden, they drop it, and now there's a garage full of equipment, all this time and money allocated. What's going on at that point, when you see a man doing that?

[Dennis] (27:47) For me, the reason we go all in is it becomes an identity — this is who we want to be. I think it's a way to stay competitive, a way to latch onto something. Once you realize this isn't the identity you want anymore, or it's not working, you completely drop it — it's almost like you want to forget it ever happened, and you latch onto something else. There's some competitiveness to it, some drive — you start a new hobby, you see where you can get to with it. But for most, I think it's an identity thing: I want to be the golfer, or the car guy, or whatever it may be. That's mostly where it comes from.

[Dana] (28:50) So then why do they just automatically stop? What happened to that need to identify with it?

[Dennis] (29:00) Again, for me, it's realizing it's either not working, or it becomes something you feel you failed at — you never got to the level you wanted to be. For example, with golf: I started golfing myself, and my son naturally picked it up. As soon as I realized this wasn't going to be something I'd do for a long time, or reach the level I wanted to, and now my son's into it — it automatically changes, now it's about my son. So I think it's a little bit of giving up, realizing this isn't going to be something I'm going to be amazing at, so why not cut ties with it now. It loses its luster — it's not as sexy as it was in the beginning.

[Dana] (29:57) It's not as novel anymore.

[Dennis] (29:58) Right — and maybe also, reminders from the wife that you're spending too much money on something, that you've gone overboard, help too. So I think for me it's mostly that I'm not getting to where I initially thought I would, and so why don't I cut ties.

[Dana] (30:20) I can totally understand that, and again, back to balance — I can see how in some instances that makes total sense, but in other cases, if somebody had a habit of doing this over and over, with an expectation of themselves as being "a-plus" at something, the whole perfectionism thing — if they're not a-plus, they won't have anything to do with it.

[Dennis] (30:45) Yeah, well, and then there's also my obsessive personality and nature, where I want to be an expert at whatever hobby I have. I mention in the book that I was a wannabe wine connoisseur at one point, pairing meals and all these things, and fast forward a couple of years, I don't even drink it anymore. But at the time, I was really excited and passionate about it, wanted to learn everything about it. So I think that initial burst of energy that goes into learning something new is what carries on and creates the habit, or the obsession, or whatever it is. I don't know if it's like that for most, but for me, for sure, it's that initial burst of energy that also triggers the all-in approach.

[Dana] (31:42) As you're explaining that, I have an observation and a question. The behavior pattern you're describing, being drawn to something novel, wanting to learn something new — that's very common for people with higher levels of intelligence, because they learn quickly, then get bored easily, and want something new. That's fabulous, but I'm also trying to lay that over the business realm. What's your experience been with men and how they can satisfy this need to learn more, to do more, this wiring toward pushing, without burning out? How do they find that balance when they're in a workplace, in leadership, maybe smarter than the average person in the room, or in a room full of very smart people, and wanting that novelty — how do they not take that too far, set that boundary? And along the same line, what if their employer wants them to stay in one particular area because they're fantastic at it, and they start getting burned out because they want something new? What's your experience been with men along these lines?

[Dennis] (33:22) I'll comment on your first point. It's a little easier in leadership to reflect on this, but one of the biggest lessons I've had over time — I used to be the guy sending out emails at midnight or 4:30 in the morning. I still occasionally do, not intentionally, just catching up, or getting up early. What most leaders don't realize is the impact that has on the recipient of that email — some are going to think, "my boss is emailing me at midnight, now I need to respond." One of the biggest learning lessons I had was at an airport one day — I often talk to other business travelers, and that day I happened to be on a midday flight, which I almost never do, usually a 6 or 7 a.m. flight, I don't like flying anything later than 9 a.m., it feels like I'm losing time. I started chatting with a guy and said, "I normally do early morning flights," and he looked at me and said, "I never do early morning flights — I used to, when I was younger."

We got into a conversation, and he basically told me that, especially as a leader, when your pace, your work ethic, becomes your identity, the people who follow you, who work for you, don't just see the results — they see the costs. They start to internalize, "I don't know if I want to do what he does, I don't know that I want to be sending emails at 4 a.m., jumping on a plane at 6 a.m. every Monday." That had a profound effect on me, realizing my pace was potentially putting a damper on others, especially the people who report to me — I don't want them to feel like they have to catch up. That's been a huge shift for me.

As for the novelty piece — I do move on from things pretty quickly, but I have seen others who want to move from one thing to the next, and I can say that I do complete my work, complete my projects. I put excellence and doing things well over quantity, so I'm not someone who wants to move on to the next job or anything like that — I truly want to master my craft in whatever environment I'm in now. But I have seen several people who want to move from one thing to the next.

[Dana] (36:13) Yeah, again, back to balance, trying to figure that out — it's a minefield sometimes, and it's about choices, figuring out how to do it the right way. We are unfortunately out of time today, but Dennis, I know the listeners and viewers want to know how to get a hold of you, how to learn more about you and your book. And since I have the book right here, I'm going to show it — anyone on YouTube will be able to see this. I love it. So, is there a website you'd like them to visit? How would you like them to access you?

[Dennis] (36:53) The best way would be Instagram. It's funny — before I wrote my book, I hadn't done a Facebook post in seven years. I naturally don't have a large audience, I was very rarely on social media, just focused on parenting, work, and taking care of myself. Then I wrote the book and realized I've got to market this thing, so I started an Instagram page, and I've been having a lot of fun with it, trying to keep it light and post content that adheres to a lot of different audiences. It's "keep the edge" on Instagram — keep dot the dot edge. That's the best way to find me. And the book is available exclusively on Amazon, so that's the best way to catch me.

[Dana] (37:53) Fabulous, got it. And that's all going to be in the show notes. Dennis, I really appreciate you spending your precious time, your knowledge, your wisdom, your experience, your stories with myself and all of my listeners and viewers. Thank you very, very much.

[Dennis] (38:12) Yeah, thank you so much for having me, and appreciate your time as well. Take care.

[Dana] (38:16) Now, listeners, viewers, I know you've heard multiple things today that made you think, "I have a friend, a family member, a coworker who needs to hear exactly what Dennis is saying." Take this podcast episode, copy and paste the link, send it in a text, send it in an email, post it on your favorite social media sites, so we can grow our Phoenix and Flame community and let people know: you are not alone. I hope your day has been great. I hope the rest of your day is fantastic. I'm Dana, on Phoenix and Flame.

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First aired September 6, 2026

Dr. Charleanea Arellano has spent over 30 years as a clinical psychologist and leadership coach, but the framework she's best known for now, the Embodied Narrative Framework, didn't come from a textbook. It came from putting away laundry five years ago and noticing her own body bracing for impact, for no reason at all, at age 55, after decades of actually being safe.

Dr. Arellano built her career studying how high-achieving women lead while carrying nervous systems shaped by trauma, and by the added weight of managing how their race, sexuality, or gender is perceived in the room. As a queer Latina psychologist who didn't come out publicly until 2024, and who spent years often being the only person of color at the table, she's lived the pattern she now helps her clients unwind.

We talk about what a chronically activated nervous system actually feels like in the body, the subtle and not-so-subtle ways bias shows up in a room, why "just get a massage" isn't a real fix for high achievers, and the simple, several-times-a-day nervous system reset she teaches instead.

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In this episode

• Why Dr. Arellano's own healing journey, not her doctorate, is what actually led her to the nervous system work she's known for today
• What it felt like to be the only person of color in the room for decades, and the subtle versus overt ways bias and microaggressions actually show up
• How to tell when your nervous system is activated, from bracing for impact to chronic anxiety, and why it starts in the body, not the mind
• The physical toll of years of unresolved activation: TMJ, chronic headaches, fatigue, digestive issues, and more
• Why women and men are socialized to handle stress so differently, and what that means for high-achieving women specifically
• The several-times-a-day nervous system reset Dr. Arellano teaches her clients, and why it only takes seconds
• Balancing connection and protection with family members who caused real harm, and what it looks like to set a boundary without needing them to understand it

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet psychologist and Embodied Narrative Framework founder Dr. Charleanea Arellano
• (03:07) Her path into psychology: curiosity about human behavior, a high school class, and a PhD by 29
• (05:26) "We are a version of our perfect client": how her own experience as a high achiever managing perceptions shaped her work
• (07:52) The subtle and overt ways bias shows up in a room, from stopped conversations to backhanded compliments
• (11:49) Stepping away from the professional world in 2003 after years of navigating belonging and credibility
• (13:24) What it actually feels like when your nervous system is activated: bracing, anxiety, and the body's fight-or-run response
• (20:35) The chronic physical toll: TMJ, headaches, fatigue, digestive issues, and chronic pain
• (24:30) Why women carry stress differently than men, and what that means for high-achieving women
• (25:57) The several-times-a-day nervous system reset, and why "just get a massage" doesn't work for high achievers
• (33:36) Her books: the memoir Terrible Gifts and The Last Dance, on intergenerational trauma with her father
• (37:01) Balancing connection and protection: boundaries with family members who caused real harm
• (40:06) Where to find Dr. Arellano and her work

About Dr. Charleanea Arellano

Dr. Charleanea Arellano is a licensed psychologist and Board Certified Life Coach with over 30 years of clinical and leadership experience, and the founder of the Embodied Narrative Framework. A queer Latina psychologist, she helps high-achieving women understand how nervous system patterns, trauma-adapted achievement, and the added stress of managing how their race, sexuality, or gender is perceived shape the way they decide, lead, and relate to success.

Her own healing journey, including decades of navigating rooms where she was often the only person of color, informs her work today. She's the author of the forthcoming memoir Terrible Gifts: Finding the Light in the Darkest of Places, and The Last Dance, which explores intergenerational trauma through her relationship with her father.

Learn more at Dr. Charleanea's website, or connect with her on LinkedIn.

Favorite quotes

"We are a version of our perfect client." —Dr. Charleanea Arellano "It starts with the nervous system. The nervous system is online before we have any conscious thought about it. It's running the show." —Dr. Charleanea Arellano "This is hygiene. This is another form of hygiene — nervous system hygiene that you do throughout the day." —Dr. Charleanea Arellano, on why a 30-second reset matters as much as brushing your teeth

Resources mentioned

• Dr. Charleanea's website: home to her coaching practice and more on the Embodied Narrative Framework
• Terrible Gifts: Finding the Light in the Darkest of Places: Dr. Arellano's forthcoming memoir, currently in the publication process
• The Last Dance: her book on intergenerational trauma, told through her relationship with her father
• Dr. Charleanea Arellano on LinkedIn

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Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Ready to find your own voice on stage? Dana's a big fan of Mic Drop Academy, a public speaking and group coaching program built for women. Watch the free webinar, join a workshop, or dive into the bootcamp to build the confidence to speak up and be heard. (These are affiliate links — Dana may earn a commission at no extra cost to you.)

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First aired August 23, 2026

Annette Mullin spent 24 years with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, nine of them as a crisis negotiator, eventually leading one of the busiest negotiation teams in the country â€" averaging over 100 call-outs a year. She worked patrol, sexual assault, internal affairs, and homicide, becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant, before spending her final years as the department's director of employee wellness in the aftermath of the October 1 Mandalay Bay shooting, the largest mass shooting in U.S. history.

Now a negotiation instructor and coach at the Black Swan Group, founded by former FBI lead hostage negotiator Chris Voss, Annette translates those high-stakes lessons into practical tools for leaders, teams, and individuals navigating pressure, conflict, and growth.

We talk about the universal need she discovered in every person she ever negotiated with, why the crime itself is almost always a secondary issue, what "tactical empathy" actually looks like in practice, and why most of us were never actually taught how to listen.

Watch this episode Youtube episode link here In this episode

• How the O.J. Simpson case and a criminalistics program in LA sparked Annette's path into crime scene investigation, and why she chose Las Vegas over LAPD
• Joining LVMPD's crisis negotiation team, and what made Las Vegas's team one of the busiest in the country
• Becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant, and the advice that helped her navigate a male-dominated field without making it about gender
• Why removing assumptions, and getting curious instead of judgmental, changed how she worked with people in crisis
• The universal need Annette discovered every person in crisis shares, no matter how different the circumstances
• Why the crime itself is almost always a secondary issue, and what's usually driving it underneath
• How Chris Voss's "tactical empathy" model, from Never Split the Difference, turns negotiation into collaboration instead of a tug-of-war
• The five levels of listening Black Swan teaches, and why most of us are trained to listen to respond instead of to understand

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet retired LVMPD crisis negotiator Annette Mullin
• (02:23) From the East Coast to Las Vegas: the O.J. Simpson case and her path into crime scene investigation
• (04:42) Joining the crisis negotiation team, and Las Vegas's brutal call-out numbers
• (06:36) Retiring after serving as director of employee wellness following the October 1 Mandalay Bay shooting
• (08:15) What drew her to law enforcement as a kid, from Nancy Drew to Quincy, M.E.
• (10:10) Navigating gender in a male-dominated field, and becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant
• (14:00) Removing assumptions: why curiosity beats judgment when someone has "a chip on their shoulder"
• (16:52) The universal need every person in crisis shares, and why that surprised her most
• (20:05) Why the crime is almost always the secondary issue
• (24:28) From hostage negotiation to the boardroom: Chris Voss, Black Swan Group, and tactical empathy
• (28:43) The biggest obstacle to listening, and the five levels of listening Black Swan teaches
• (31:50) The number one struggle business leaders bring to her, and why practicing in "low stakes" moments matters
• (34:12) Where to find Annette, Black Swan Group, and the new book Fight Less, Win More

About Annette Mullin

Annette Mullin is a retired Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department leader with 24 years of law enforcement experience, including nine years as a crisis negotiator and eventual leader of LVMPD's crisis negotiation team, one of the busiest in the country. Over her career she worked patrol, community policing, sexual assault, internal affairs, and homicide, becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant, before serving as the department's director of employee wellness in the aftermath of the October 1 Mandalay Bay shooting.

Now a negotiation instructor and coach at the Black Swan Group, founded by former FBI lead hostage negotiator Chris Voss, Annette teaches the principles behind Never Split the Difference, including tactical empathy, to leaders, teams, and individuals navigating pressure and conflict in business and life.

Learn more at the Black Swan Group, or connect with Annette on LinkedIn.

Favorite quotes "There is a universal need for every person to be heard, to be seen, and to be understood." "Not everybody is like you. Removing assumptions was really key, let them show you or tell you." "If I read a book about working out every week but never lift a weight, I can't expect to see anything different." Resources mentioned

• Black Swan Group: negotiation training founded by former FBI lead hostage negotiator Chris Voss
• Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss: the book that brings hostage-negotiation principles like tactical empathy into business and everyday life
• Fight Less, Win More: Chris Voss's newest book, adapting those same skills for personal relationships
• Annette Mullin on LinkedIn

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If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Ready to find your own voice on stage? Dana's a big fan of Mic Drop Academy, a public speaking and group coaching program built for women. Watch the free webinar, join a workshop, or dive into the bootcamp to build the confidence to speak up and be heard.

First aired August 16, 2026

For over a decade, Dave Mowry couldn't get out of bed, couldn't shower, and couldn't walk to his own mailbox without waiting until dark so a neighbor wouldn't catch the look in his eyes. In 1994, a psychotic break sent the successful businessman and family man into a depression so deep it cost him his house, his career, and 14 years he calls his "lost years." He slept in his clothes for months at a time. At parties, he'd stand against the wall and pray no one came over to talk to him.

Then, at his wife's urging, he walked into a stand-up comedy class for people living with mental illness, and by the second session, something shifted: he started looking for the joke inside the pain. Dave is now a bestselling author, a blogger with over a million reads, a peer support specialist, and, in his own words, "a comic who shatters stigma one joke at a time."

We get into what clinical depression actually feels like from the inside, why his wife is the true hero of his story, how a ten-week comedy class became group therapy in disguise, the gentle suicide joke that helped save a young man's life, and why people in the mental health field need to stop trying to "protect" the very people they're meant to be supporting.

Watch this episode

In this episode

• Why a 1994 psychotic break sent a successful businessman into 14 "lost years" of homelessness and depression
• What clinical depression actually feels like: the showers he couldn't take, the mailbox trips timed for after dark, and the panic attacks that came out of nowhere
• Why "just do something small," like sitting in a different chair, was enough to keep Dave from getting stuck in hopelessness
• What family members need to understand about mental illness, and how Dave's wife became "the hero of his story"
• How a NAMI stand-up comedy class turned Dave's pain into laugh-out-loud jokes, and eventually a sold-out show at Helium Comedy Club
• Dave's gentle suicide joke, why it works, and the night it helped save a young man's life
• Why people in the helping professions need to stop trying to "save" people with mental illness and start supporting them instead

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet comic and mental health advocate Dave Mowry
• (01:16) The 1994 psychotic break, and the 14 "lost years" that followed
• (03:56) What clinical depression actually feels like: showers, blending into the wall, panic attacks
• (07:10) The exhausting weight of "just getting out of bed"
• (08:41) Don't get stuck: the small, deliberate choices that kept hope alive
• (10:15) What family members need to understand: it's not a moral failing
• (11:26) Dave's wife, the true hero of his story
• (14:34) Finding NAMI's stand-up comedy class, and the moment humor clicked
• (17:59) Selling out Helium Comedy Club, and becoming "a thing"
• (19:51) Blogging, "OMG, that's me," and shattering stigma one joke at a time
• (25:32) Teaching comedy: the setup, the punchline, and getting students to open up
• (26:10) Dave's gentle suicide joke, and the night it helped save a life
• (32:42) Boundaries, mania, and giving himself permission to say no
• (37:25) Where to find Dave, his books, and how to reach him

About Dave Mowry

Dave Mowry is a bestselling author, blogger, and stand-up comic who shatters stigma one joke at a time. After a 1994 psychotic break led to 14 "lost years" of severe depression, homelessness, and hospitalization, Dave found his way back through NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) and a stand-up comedy class for people living with mental illness. He went on to sell out Portland's Helium Comedy Club, teach comedy classes to people living with mental illness, and become a peer support specialist. He's the author of OMG, That's Me! and Healing with Humor, and his blog for bphope.com has been read over a million times.

Learn more and get in touch at Dave's website, or reach him directly at [email protected].

Favorite quotes

"It's not a moral failing. It's a medical condition." —Dave Mowry "Afterwards, I called my wife for help. She said, 'There are more pills under the sink.'" —Dave Mowry, on the gentle suicide joke that's helped save lives "We don't need to be saved. Support us and all that, but don't try to save us. We don't need it." —Dave Mowry

Resources mentioned

• Dave's website: home to his books and a contact form
• OMG, That's Me!: Dave's bestselling book on what it's really like to live with a mental illness, available on Amazon and Kindle
• Healing with Humor: Dave's newest book, telling the story of six comedy-class students and their transformation
• NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness): the organization that connected Dave to the comedy class that changed his life
• Helium Comedy Club (Portland): where Dave's class sold out a 185-seat show

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In this episode, Dana is joined by Kurt Bush, a trauma-informed coach who helps leaders move from imposter syndrome to authentic confidence. Kurt shares his own journey with imposter syndrome, from feeling like a fraud in corporate leadership meetings to realizing his true calling. He explains that to make a change, the pain of staying the same must become greater than the pain of changing, a threshold many of us fear crossing. Kurt introduces the ERT (Encounter + Reflection = Transformation) framework, a practical approach to help you get unstuck. He reveals why the first step to moving forward is often learning to "start stopping" the things that drain your energy, allowing you to create a life that is truly aligned with who you are. Kurt's Website

Kurt's Linkedin -------------

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A midlife crisis isn't actually a crisis. That's the challenge Jody Brooks puts to anyone who's ever felt lost, restless, or quietly convinced something's wrong with them somewhere around 40 or 50: what looks like burnout, and what people love to write off as a freakout, is more often a calling. His own arrived at lunchtime at the office, buzzing canteen and all, when he found himself sitting in a restroom cubicle, crying so hard he could barely breathe. No brutal meeting that morning. No disaster. Just the quiet moment his body picked to file its formal complaint: burnout wasn't a "rough patch" anymore, it was a full-body shutdown.

I've been a therapist for 18 years, and I can tell you: high performers do this. We white-knuckle through "one more day" (and one more, and one more) until the body stops asking politely. Sound familiar? Jody is a UK-based midlife and burnout coach who once survived 52 flights in eight months of what he calls "jazz hands" performing, and his calling-not-crisis framework is asking you to come home to yourself.

We get into how to spot the full-body warning signs before you hit your own cubicle moment, how to settle anxiety in the moment it spikes (not three weeks and one forced sabbatical later), and Jody's wonderfully backwards first step for anyone feeling stuck: don't start something new. Start stopping.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfi9lec7n2o

In this episode

• Why burnout can feel like "just a bad day" until it suddenly isn't, and how to recognize the full-body warning signs before you hit the wall
• Why a midlife crisis isn't really a crisis at all: it's a calling to reconnect with who you actually are
• The anxiety-regulation technique Jody uses with coaching clients to come back from a stress spiral in real time
• Why you can't be "out of alignment" until you know what alignment actually means, and how to find your starting point
• The "start stopping" exercise for anyone who wants change but doesn't know where to begin
• How understanding your core values turns boundaries from something scary into something guilt-free

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet midlife and burnout coach Jody Brooks
• (01:47) The restroom-cubicle "pile of ash" moment: burnout as a full-body shutdown
• (04:34) The three-hour drive home, and the decision to stop
• (06:43) Fear, anxiety, and the "one small thing" that finally breaks us
• (10:10) Jody's technique for regulating anxiety and stress in the moment
• (13:59) What alignment really means (and the bus analogy)
• (19:39) Why younger generations and midlifers experience burnout differently
• (24:37) The blank-page moment: reclaiming your story through empowerment
• (25:43) "Start stopping": Jody's first step for anyone feeling stuck
• (29:21) Boundaries, core values, and why saying no is an act of service
• (33:17) Where to find Jody and his free resources

About Jody Brooks

Jody Brooks is a UK-based midlife and burnout coach and the founder of Authentic Coaching. After burning out during a high-pressure international career in education (one stretch included 52 flights in eight months) he developed the nine principles of authentic living, a practical framework that helps people turn crisis into connection and sustainable well-being.

Learn more and join his free community at Jody's website, or connect with him on LinkedIn.

Favorite quotes "I actually can't go back." —Jody Brooks, on the moment burnout finally broke through "Start stopping. Stopping what no longer serves you." —Jody Brooks "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there." —Jody Brooks Resources mentioned

• AuthenticCoaching.me: Jody's website and free community, home to the "Start Stopping" exercise and the anxiety-regulation technique he mentions on the show
• Jody's nine principles of authentic living (his coaching framework, discussed throughout the episode)
• Jody Brooks on LinkedIn

Subscribe & connect

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

Two in the morning. Sitting on the toilet, clothed, bawling into a pillow, because a broken PC was the last thing standing between him and the self-employed life he wanted so badly he could feel it in his teeth. That's where my guest this week hit rock bottom: not one dramatic collapse, but months of computer problems piling on top of a dream that felt like it was never going to happen. A client shared one quote with him that day, and Aaron Ryan has carried it in his back pocket for almost twenty years since: "The temptation to quit is always greatest just before your greatest success."

Aaron is an award-winning, bestselling author of the six-book Dissonance alien invasion saga (one installment is being pitched to streaming networks right now), plus dozens of other titles across sci-fi, historical fiction, and children's books, and he's also a working voice actor. We talk about the "Illuminati" he ran into at the top of the voiceover industry, the sting of writing 300 blog posts meant to encourage people only to be told they were "nothing," and why he walked away from that world entirely to go back to his first love: storytelling. Aaron also shares his best advice for anyone starting out as a writer (be authentic, steer clear of generative AI, and grow thick skin fast), and the 9/11 historical novel he wrote as an act of catharsis, imagining a world where the attacks never happened.

If you've ever felt like an imposter next to people who seem to have it all figured out, or you're right on the edge of giving up on something you can feel in your teeth, this conversation is the reminder that the breakdown right before the breakthrough is often just... the process.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHeG1Oqaspc

In this episode

• The quote Aaron has carried for almost 20 years, and the two memory sticks that changed his entire career
• Why running into "the Illuminati" of the voiceover industry, and being told his encouragement blogs were "nothing," turned out to be his breakthrough in disguise
• Aaron's advice for anyone who wants to write a book: be authentic, avoid generative AI, and grow thick skin fast
• Why holding a finished book in your hands matters more than whether anyone buys it
• How Aaron turned personal catharsis into fiction, including a 9/11 historical novel where the attacks never happen
• What "breakdown to breakthrough, wash, rinse, repeat" really looks like over a creative career

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet award-winning author Aaron Ryan
• (01:38) The Dissonance saga, Hollywood pitches, and film festival wins
• (03:04) The young author's club at age 10, and being "fated" to write
• (04:39) Advice for new writers: be authentic, avoid AI, grow thick skin
• (07:38) Imposter syndrome, and the 7,500 books published on Amazon every day
• (09:57) "The Electric Boy": writing his first "book" at age seven
• (13:20) Why Aaron writes sci-fi, post-apocalyptic, and dystopian fiction
• (16:57) The "Illuminati" of the voiceover industry, and walking away from it
• (22:46) 2007: leaving full-time work, and the PC that wouldn't stop breaking
• (24:12) Bawling into a pillow at 2am, and the quote that changed everything
• (26:31) Breakdown to breakthrough, wash, rinse, repeat
• (28:31) Aaron's favorite books: The End Omega, and a 9/11 novel where the attacks never happen
• (35:00) Where to find Aaron and his books

About Aaron Ryan

Aaron Ryan is an award-winning and best-selling author, speaker, panelist, workshop presenter, and voice actor. He's the author of the six-book Dissonance alien invasion saga (currently being pitched to streaming networks), the Christian dystopian series The End, the 9/11 historical fiction novel Forecast, and dozens of other titles across sci-fi, historical fiction, and children's books. He lives in Washington with his wife, two sons, and a small menagerie of pets.

Learn more at Aaron's website, or join his free community for screenplay updates, discount codes, giveaways, and appearances.

Favorite quotes "The temptation to quit is always greatest just before your greatest success." —a line Aaron Ryan has carried in his back pocket for almost 20 years "If you can steer clear of AI, please do. Don't outsource your work to a chip." —Aaron Ryan "I must create or I'm gonna blow up, I'll explode." —Aaron Ryan Resources mentioned

• AuthorAaronRyan.com: Aaron's website, with links to all his books and social channels
• Aaron's free Facebook community: screenplay status updates, discount codes, giveaways, and appearances
• Dissonance, Aaron's six-book alien invasion saga
• The End Omega, the finale of Aaron's Christian dystopian series
• Forecast, Aaron's 9/11 historical fiction novel

Related episodes

• From Rock Bottom to Mountain Top: Interview with Kevin Palmieri: another guest's road from the bottom back up
• From Tragedy to Triumph: Rhonda Britten's Path to a Fearless Life: more on turning devastation into a fearless second act
• From the Edge of Suicide to the Grace of Grief: another raw conversation about finding hope in the darkest moment

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If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

Four years of chronic pain. A fibromyalgia diagnosis. Muscle relaxers, pain pills, migraines, MRI after MRI. And through all of it, my guest this week kept hearing the same quiet voice: something doesn't fit. Rebecca Russell listened to it anyway, tracked down a neurosurgeon, and asked for one test nobody else had run: a discogram. It found the bulging disc that had been the actual problem the whole time, and eighty-five percent of her symptoms disappeared after surgery.

Rebecca is a metabolism and lifestyle coach, certified essential oil specialist, and author who's spent more than three decades turning her own health crises, a prediabetes warning in her thirties and years of unexplained chronic pain, into a holistic approach she now teaches other people. We talk about the difference between managing symptoms and finding root cause, how to bring up wanting to try something holistic without blowing up the relationship with a doctor you've trusted for decades, and the "black year" she spent as a stay-at-home mom feeling brain-dead and guilty for wanting more, before a community-college pamphlet turned into an unexpected ten-year path to becoming a published novelist.

If you've ever been told your labs are "normal" while you know something is wrong, Rebecca's message is blunt and useful: do your homework, and don't let anyone, including a doctor you love, talk you out of your own intuition.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa0h2DJgFWg

In this episode

• Why Rebecca trusted her own intuition over four years of doctors telling her to just manage the pain, and the one test that finally found the root cause
• How a lifestyle overhaul helped Rebecca avoid a lifetime of medication after a prediabetes warning in her thirties
• The self-awareness, self-acceptance, self-love formula Rebecca built to help people figure out what they actually need
• Why she calls herself "the Queen of Homework," and how to research a health decision your doctor won't have time to
• How essential oils helped Rebecca get off a nightly sleep medication, and how each oil ties to an emotional need
• Her "black year" as a stay-at-home mom, and the writing-class pamphlet that turned into a decade-long path to publication

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet metabolism and lifestyle coach Rebecca Russell
• (02:10) From Harlequin romance novelist to competitive athlete
• (04:52) The rec ice hockey high, and the fibromyalgia diagnosis that followed
• (07:08) Watching family members struggle on the traditional medical path
• (09:04) The American Diabetes Society's shift toward prevention and reversal
• (11:39) The discogram: the one test nobody else had run
• (13:34) The statin Rebecca refused, and the thyroid issue that was the real cause
• (16:05) How to bring up holistic options without losing your traditional doctor
• (19:50) Why Rebecca calls herself "the Queen of Homework"
• (20:23) Essential oils, sleep, and getting off a nightly medication
• (24:35) The "black year": stay-at-home motherhood, guilt, and losing her sense of self
• (28:22) The writing-class pamphlet that led to a published novel ten years later
• (35:15) Boundaries, self-acceptance, and letting other people's opinions go

About Rebecca Russell

Rebecca Russell is a metabolism and lifestyle coach, author, and certified essential oil specialist who believes resilience begins with how we care for our bodies. After being told she was likely headed toward type 2 diabetes, she chose a different path and has spent more than 30 years embracing a holistic lifestyle to change the trajectory of her health, including recovering from a four-year battle with chronic pain that led to a fibromyalgia diagnosis.

Learn more at Rebecca's website, where you can request a free wellness consultation.

Favorite quotes "Listen to your body. Listen to that intuition." —Rebecca Russell "Root cause is so important." —Rebecca Russell "You have to know yourself well enough to know what you need to be happy." —Rebecca Russell Resources mentioned

• RebeccaRussell.com: Rebecca's website and free wellness consultation offer
• Rebecca's book, which includes companion journal pages for each chapter (available as a free download through Rebecca directly)
• The American Diabetes Society's preventative, low-carb approach to autoimmune conditions including diabetes
• Uncover Your Light, a nonfiction anthology on stories of hope and resilience featuring a chapter by Rebecca

Related episodes

• How to Trust Your Intuition After Trauma: more on learning to listen to your own body and instincts again
• How Your Survival Brain Is Sabotaging Your Happiness: the science behind why we override our own signals
• How to Reclaim Your Energy When You're Burned Out: pairs with Rebecca's root-cause approach to chronic health struggles

Subscribe & connect

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

My guest this week has a word for himself I'd never heard before: "entrepreholic." Over 39 years, Chris Shurian has built, operated, bought, broken, and resurrected companies in remodeling, construction, manufacturing, real estate development, foreign investment, hospitality, restaurants, and retail. He's also survived cancer and finished two Ironmans. And in 2008, when the economy crashed, he was so extended, so "all in, all in, all in," as he puts it, that he spent the next two years meeting with his banker once a week just to survive it.

We talk about what it actually felt like to launch out on his own the first time (scary, but young enough that the stakes felt low), the mindset that got him through the 2008 collapse (he sold his boat and his Corvette for cash instead of losing them to the bank, because he'd paid cash for his toys in the first place), and why he now believes setting boundaries isn't a personal luxury for entrepreneurs, it's a core business strategy. Chris also shares the "work to live" question that reframed his whole career, and why four focused hours in his office can outperform someone else's fourteen.

If you're building something and starting to feel like the business owns you instead of the other way around, Chris's story of setting his own hours from day one, and watching his business and his customers adapt to it, is worth the whole episode.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nsQRwz6r5I

In this episode

• Why "life balance isn't a luxury, it's a core business strategy" for entrepreneurs
• The mindset shift that turned "scared" into "excited" for Chris during the 2008 financial collapse
• Why paying cash for the boat, the Corvette, and the cabin saved Chris's family when the bank came calling
• How setting one firm boundary (a standing day off, a closed office door) trains your business and your customers to respect it
• Why entrepreneurs who "jump ship" too early into a new opportunity often sabotage the one that's already working
• The life balance wheel exercise Chris still uses with his coaching clients today

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet self-proclaimed "entrepreholic" Chris Shurian
• (01:58) The word "entrepreholic," and why it's different from "serial entrepreneur"
• (04:57) What launching out on his own for the first time actually felt like
• (06:54) The fence-building side hustle that turned into a contracting career
• (09:50) Bartering, visibility, and getting your work seen
• (13:11) Building a remodeling empire, and the year everything grew too fast
• (14:59) Neuroplasticity: reframing "scared" as "excited"
• (17:23) The 2008 crash: two years of weekly meetings with the banker
• (18:09) Why paying cash for the boat and the Corvette saved the family
• (20:08) Imposter syndrome as a coach, and the value of hard-won experience
• (24:30) Where Chris lost his own boundaries: jumping ship on the main business too early
• (28:20) "Do you live to work, or do you work to live?"
• (33:50) Where to find Chris and his coaching

About Chris Shurian

Chris Shurian is a self-proclaimed "entrepreholic" who has spent 39 years building, operating, breaking, and resurrecting companies in remodeling, construction, manufacturing, real estate development, foreign investment, hospitality, restaurants, and retail. In his own words: "I've won big, lost big, survived cancer, finished two Ironmans, and I still show up with the enthusiasm of a guy launching his very first venture." He now coaches business owners and entrepreneurs, drawing on decades of building, losing, and rebuilding.

Learn more at Chris's website, or connect with him on LinkedIn.

Favorite quotes "I've won big, lost big, survived cancer, finished two Ironmans, and I still show up with the enthusiasm of a guy launching his very first venture." —Chris Shurian "I am absolutely a work to live kind of guy." —Chris Shurian "I can get more done in four hours in my office than some people get done in two or three days." —Chris Shurian Resources mentioned

• BootstrapsAndBattleScars.com: Chris's platform, coaching, and podcast
• Chris Shurian on LinkedIn
• The life balance wheel, an exercise Chris uses with coaching clients to spot where their life is out of balance

Related episodes

• Setting Boundaries for Well-Being and Success: more on why boundaries drive success instead of limiting it
• Entrepreneurial Success: Habits of a Maverick: another entrepreneur's take on the habits that make the long game possible
• Vision and Heart: One Entrepreneur's Journey: another founder's road through building, losing, and rebuilding

Subscribe & connect

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

Picture a hand-written sign taped to a bus stop in Japan: "I'm 87, I don't have a family. Would some family take me?" No one answered. He died a couple of months later. That story, from my guest this week, is the starkest snapshot I've ever heard of what loneliness researcher Dr. Anthony Silard calls a global epidemic, and the twist is who it's hitting hardest: not the oldest of us, but the youngest.

Anthony is a professor of Leadership and Organizational Psychology and an internationally recognized authority on relationships, emotional intelligence, and personal transformation, and he's the author of the new book Love and Suffering: Break the Emotional Chains that Prevent You from Experiencing Love. We get into the real difference between loneliness (which he calls the trash) and solitude (the treasure), his four-plateau model for moving toward love, and why parents need to be their kid's "emotion elevator" instead of handing over a screen every time a feeling gets hard. Anthony also makes the case, backed by his own research, for ditching "forgive and forget" for good: forgiveness is something you do for yourself, trust is something you decide about the relationship, and they are not the same choice.

If you've ever wondered whether you're lonely or just alone, or you've been calling resentment "forgiveness" without realizing it, this conversation hands you the language for both.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkiYyQ_Nj-U

In this episode

• Why today's loneliest generation isn't the oldest, it's the youngest, and what's driving it
• The real difference between loneliness (trash) and solitude (treasure), and how to move toward the second
• Why "forgive and forget" is bad advice, and what to do instead: forgive and remember, lightly
• The difference between forgiveness (for you) and trust (for the relationship), and why you can have one without the other
• What it means to be your child's "emotion elevator," and what happens when that job gets outsourced to a screen
• Why comparing yourself to everyone else on your bus is quietly making loneliness worse

Timestamps

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Dr. Anthony Silard, author of Love and Suffering
• (01:49) Why Anthony studies loneliness: his own early experience with it
• (03:14) The exponential rise in loneliness since the first iPhone
• (06:15) The loneliness epidemic by the numbers: the Cigna study, the UK's minister for loneliness, and the 87-year-old's sign
• (09:34) Loneliness vs. solitude: trash and treasure
• (12:14) Why today's loneliest generation is the youngest, not the oldest
• (16:58) Being your child's "emotion elevator," and the conversational duet
• (23:01) The decline of empathy, and the truth about the "self-absorption" myth
• (27:30) Why "forgive and forget" is bad advice
• (28:27) Forgiveness vs. trust: two different decisions
• (31:14) Where to find Anthony and his free books

About Dr. Anthony Silard

Dr. Anthony Silard is a professor of Leadership and Organizational Psychology and an internationally recognized authority in relationships, leadership, emotional intelligence, relational healing, and personal transformation. He earned his doctorate at IESE Business School in Barcelona and is one of the two most-published researchers on loneliness in organizations, alongside Sarah Wright in New Zealand. He's the author of Love and Suffering: Break the Emotional Chains that Prevent You from Experiencing Love (2025) and the previous book Screened In: The Art of Living Free in the Digital Age, and he coaches CEOs and senior leaders at companies including Toyota, Apple, Google, and Boeing.

Learn more at Anthony's website, or grab his two free books, "The Myth of Happiness" and "The Myth of Friendship."

Favorite quotes "Loneliness is a negative distressing emotion associated with being alone. Solitude is a positive strengthening emotion associated with being alone." —Dr. Anthony Silard "Resentment is what you feel while the other person's out dancing." —Dr. Anthony Silard "Trust is necessary for relationship development." —Dr. Anthony Silard Resources mentioned

• Love and Suffering: Break the Emotional Chains that Prevent You from Experiencing Love, Anthony's book on his four-plateau "love progression model"
• Screened In: The Art of Living Free in the Digital Age, Anthony's previous book on screens and relationships
• Two free books: "The Myth of Happiness" and "The Myth of Friendship," available at TheArtOfLivingFree.org
• The Cigna loneliness study (2018 and 2020) cited on the rise in adult American loneliness

Related episodes

• Beyond Forgive and Forget: The Real Secret to Letting Go: a deeper dive into exactly the forgiveness-vs-trust distinction Anthony draws in this episode
• Curiosity: The Bridge to Connection: more on what it actually takes to move from isolation to real connection
• Vulnerability, Authenticity, and Connection: An Interview with Coach Lee Hopkins: another conversation on what genuine connection requires

Subscribe & connect

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz