Phoenix and Flame Podcast

The cardiologist walked in, looked at the chart, and skipped hello. He looked Michael Levitt dead in the eye and said, "You know, you should be dead right now." Michael's first wife and mother, sitting beside him, started crying. Michael looked back and said, "I see you skipped a bedside manner class in medical school." That's the kind of guy you're dealing with: the kind who can crack a joke about his own near-fatal heart attack. But the blockage in his "widow maker" artery wasn't a joke. It was burnout, built over two years of six a.m. to eleven p.m. shifts, seven days a week, and it nearly killed him.

Michael is the founder of the Breakfast Leadership Network and calls himself the Chief Burnout Officer (a title, he says, that came to him in the shower). In the twelve months after that heart attack, he also lost his job during the Great Recession, had the family car repossessed, and came home one weekend to find his house padlocked in foreclosure. All of it, he says now, traces back to the same root: he was burned out, and he ignored every warning sign his own family kept pointing out to him.

We get into the sleep, diet, and calendar checks Michael now runs with coaching clients to catch burnout before it becomes a hospital visit, why "no" is a complete sentence, and the almost embarrassingly simple color-coding trick that shows you, at a glance, whether you're actually taking any time for yourself.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNQv1ftYwtk

• The three questions Michael asks every coaching client to check for burnout: sleep, diet, and calendar
• Why the biggest red flag of Michael's own burnout wasn't work related at all (he stopped going to baseball games)
• How one year of untreated burnout led to a heart attack, job loss, a repossessed car, and a foreclosed home
• The calendar color-coding trick that shows you, at a glance, whether you're scheduling any time for yourself
• Why financial stress is one of the most dangerous, and most overlooked, burnout accelerants
• How Michael uses curiosity instead of blame to help clients figure out what they're really chasing

• (00:01) Welcome and intro: meet Michael Levitt, the "Chief Burnout Officer"
• (01:28) How burnout first took hold, working 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. as a healthcare startup executive
• (02:50) Getting numb: how burnout convinces you to just keep working through it
• (05:54) The cardiologist's blunt warning: "You should be dead right now"
• (10:12) The year burnout cost Michael his health, his job, his car, and his house
• (13:02) The mental health toll of burnout: anxiety, depression, and feeling stuck in a "black place"
• (17:11) The red flag everyone else saw before Michael did: he stopped going to baseball games
• (19:33) Boundaries, delegating, and why "no" is a complete sentence
• (21:55) The three questions Michael asks clients to check for burnout: sleep, diet, calendar
• (26:15) The calendar color-coding trick for spotting how much "me time" you're actually getting
• (33:03) Michael's free book, Burnout Proof, and his parting advice

Michael Levitt is the founder of the Breakfast Leadership Network, a media firm dedicated to addressing burnout and improving workplace culture, and calls himself the Chief Burnout Officer. After his own burnout led to a heart attack, job loss, and home foreclosure within a single year, he built a coaching practice around catching those same warning signs early, in himself and in his clients.

Learn more at Breakfast Leadership, watch his video podcast on YouTube, or connect with him on LinkedIn.

• Burnout Proof by Michael Levitt: his book, available as a free download from his website
• BreakfastLeadership.com: Michael's media company, focused on burnout and workplace culture
• Michael's video podcast on YouTube
• Michael Levitt on LinkedIn

• Finding Freedom After Success-Fueled Anxiety: recorded the week before this one, with Matt Gerlach on what burnout feels like from the inside before it reaches a hospital visit.
• Overcoming Burnout, Hustle Culture, and Redefining Success: more on untangling your identity from the hustle that burned you out.
• How to Reclaim Your Energy When You're Burned Out: a newer conversation on rebuilding after burnout has already taken hold.

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

Matt Gerlach built himself a million-dollar-a-year consulting business, and twice ended up in the hospital convinced he was having a heart attack. The day he started that business, eight years ago, what he calls "obsessive worrying" moved in and never left. He smoked a pack of cigarettes a day, drank more than he should have, stopped sleeping well, and didn't clock any of it as a health problem, because the business was working. That's success-fueled anxiety: the version that shows up right on schedule with everything going well.

Matt has spent 15 years helping dozens of startups scale to seven, eight, and nine figures, but that resume doesn't mention the boundary he was too scared to set, or the fact that his grandmother's constant worry and his mother's stress migraines had already written a chunk of the script for his own anxiety before he ever noticed. He eventually trained as a yoga instructor, and it was sitting in that training, surrounded by other adults talking openly about their mental health, that he realized his childhood carried a lot more sadness and unprocessed trauma than he'd ever let himself admit.

We get into how he learned to tell the difference between discomfort you push through and pain that means stop, why he now treats every wake-up call as an invitation instead of a failure, and the simple question he asks anxious clients who can't sleep: what's actually on your mind, and why?

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0OZ-anJAfU

• Why anxiety and depression can show up right when your business finally starts working, and how to catch the warning signs earlier than Matt did
• The yoga-mat framework Matt uses to tell "sit through it" discomfort from "stop right now" pain
• How Matt grew a million-dollar consulting business by learning to advocate for fair pay and hold his own boundaries
• Why family patterns of anxiety and worry can shape your own long before you ever notice it happening
• A simple journaling exercise for figuring out what's actually driving a sleepless, anxious night
• Why Matt walked away from that million-dollar business seven months ago to build something that felt more like him

• (00:01) Welcome and intro: meet entrepreneur and coach Matt Gerlach
• (01:38) How boundaries and learning to say no led Matt into coaching
• (03:55) The yoga framework: discomfort you sit through vs. pain that means stop
• (05:31) Survival, not passion: why Matt became an entrepreneur in the first place
• (08:04) The traits Matt has seen separate people who thrive as entrepreneurs
• (14:54) Setting boundaries is Matt's own responsibility, and no one else's
• (19:55) Hitting rock bottom: anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts after starting his first business
• (24:38) The wake-up call: those symptoms were telling him not to start that business in the first place
• (27:00) Journaling your way to what's actually bothering you
• (31:28) Holistic health first: why Matt tries the accessible stuff before medication
• (35:13) Where to find Matt, and his free Friday Brunch Club for LA locals

Matt Gerlach has spent 15 years helping dozens of startups scale to seven, eight, and nine figures. He built his own consulting and services business to seven figures before stepping away from it seven months ago. He's a certified yoga instructor and now works with entrepreneurs and executives grappling with self-doubt and anxiety, guiding them toward more freedom and impact in their businesses and lives.

Learn more at Matt's website, or connect with him on LinkedIn.

• 10x Is Easier Than 2x: the book Matt says he's listened to four times, on why entrepreneurs should pay their people well enough that losing them would hurt
• Erin French's memoir about building The Lost Kitchen restaurant (title not stated on air), which Matt references as an example of unaddressed pain outlasting any amount of medication
• The Friday Brunch Club: Matt's free, biweekly gathering for "cool, interesting people" at his home in Los Angeles; reach him directly to be invited
• MattGerlach.com: Matt's website
• Matt Gerlach on LinkedIn

• How to Spot Burnout Before It's Too Late: recorded the same week as this one, with Michael Levitt on the physical warning signs Matt describes here from the inside.
• Overcoming Burnout, Hustle Culture, and Redefining Success: more on rebuilding a definition of success that doesn't cost you your health.
• How Your Survival Brain Is Sabotaging Your Happiness: the biology behind the "obsessive worrying" Matt describes living with for years.

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

Host Dana Skaggs sits down with Abagail McKiernan, founder of the nonprofit HelpLink, to uncover the deeply personal story that inspired her mission. What began as a moment of isolation became a movement rooted in unconditional generosity. Together, they explore how giving without expectation can restore dignity, forge authentic community, and remind us that the kindness we extend often finds its way back when we need it most. Abagail's Linkedin HelpLink

A gentle note before you dive in: this conversation touches on sexual assault. It's okay to pause, skip ahead, or come back to this one another time.

Katharine Giovanni attempted suicide in the eighth grade. She grew up in what she calls a "pickled family" (both parents were alcoholics), got bullied for not fitting into anybody's box, and spent years wearing her survivor story like an outfit: I lived through this, look at me. Then her mother fell down a flight of stairs, dried out in the hospital, and the two of them spent a few years closer than sisters, before her mother died of breast cancer. That was Katharine's flashpoint. She got sober (35 years and counting), and eventually built an entire method for how to forgive someone, even the person you're positive doesn't deserve it.

I've watched enough people get told to "just forgive" and sent off with zero instructions to know how empty that advice is. Katharine is a three-time bestselling author of more than a dozen books, including her latest, The Ultimate Path to Forgiveness: Unlocking Your Power, and she's the first to say the unforgivable doesn't have to be forgiven right away, or maybe ever. Her method starts with the easy people and works up to the hard ones, ranking everyone on a scale of one to ten and never skipping straight to your tens.

We get into her exact forgiveness mantra, why forgiveness is 100 percent compatible with never speaking to someone again, and why (yes, you read that right) you can absolutely forgive someone who's already dead. This is forgiveness with the boundaries left on, and that's exactly the kind I can get behind.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUCd3I_EAY4

• Why "just forgive them" advice fails, and the step-by-step method Katharine built instead
• The difference between forgiving someone and reconciling with them (you can do one without ever doing the other)
• Katharine's forgiveness mantra, and how to use it alone at home in under five minutes
• Why you can forgive someone you'll never speak to again, including people who have already died
• Why "forgive and forget" is a myth, and what actually changes in your body when you truly let go
• How forgiveness and boundaries work together instead of against each other

• (00:01) Welcome and intro: meet forgiveness coach and author Katharine Giovanni
• (01:33) Why everyone tells you to forgive and nobody teaches you how
• (02:00) Katharine's "pickled family," being bullied, and a suicide attempt in eighth grade
• (05:06) Her mother's fall, rehab, and death from breast cancer: the flashpoint that got her sober
• (06:16) Reconciliation isn't the goal: "just because I forgive you doesn't mean I want a relationship with you"
• (09:43) Stop letting them live rent free in your head
• (15:03) The forgiveness mantra, step by step
• (15:30) The rule: start with the easy people, work up to the "tens," never more than ten at a time
• (20:12) How to forgive the truly unforgivable
• (21:04) Forgiveness, justice, and boundaries: why they're not the same thing
• (24:03) Forgiving the pieces of a memory: the desk, the playground, even the year itself
• (25:32) What happened in Katharine's body when she forgave too many people at once
• (33:42) Where to find Katharine and her book

Katharine Giovanni is a three-time award-winning bestselling author and speaker who has written more than a dozen books, including her latest, The Ultimate Path to Forgiveness: Unlocking Your Power. A survivor of stage three breast cancer and a turbulent childhood, she spent years teaching people how to run concierge businesses before retiring from that work in 2020 to focus on the forgiveness method she developed in 2021.

Learn more at Katharine's website, or connect with her on LinkedIn.

• The Ultimate Path to Forgiveness: Unlocking Your Power by Katharine Giovanni: her latest book, and the source of the step-by-step forgiveness method discussed throughout the episode
• KatharineGiovanni.com: Katharine's website
• Katharine Giovanni on LinkedIn

• The Jungle of Forgiveness and Boundaries - Can They Co-Exist?: Dana's own earlier deep dive into the exact question this episode answers.
• Getting Pulled Into the Past: Our Shame Response and the Impact of Unprocessed Trauma: more on why old wounds keep firing until you actually process them, the same territory Katharine's method covers.
• How to Reclaim Your Power from Shame: a newer conversation on taking your power back from old pain, a natural next listen after this one.

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

A patient once told me, in confidence, that his love language was physical touch, but he couldn't just ask for it. So instead he leaned into a reputation as a player and used sex as the vehicle to get the one thing he actually wanted: to be held. That story is exactly why traditional masculinity is failing so many modern relationships, according to my guest today, licensed marriage and family therapist Kristal Desantis. Men are more touch-starved than most of us realize, she says, and the old script never gave them another way to ask for it.

Kristal specializes in relationships, trauma work, and sex therapy, and her insights have been featured in Newsweek, HuffPost, The Good Men Project, and Time. She grew up surrounded entirely by women, in a family of six girls, then moved from Japan to an American women's college and got her first real look at male culture working in a sports bar. That outsider curiosity became her life's work: understanding why the old three P's of masculinity (protector, provider, procreator) collapsed almost overnight, while nobody built men a new script to replace it.

We get into the "masculinity trap" (criticized for being too stoic, then judged the moment you open up), why so many men are touch-starved, and the first two pillars of Kristal's STRONG model: safety and trust. If you've ever wondered why the men in your life seem damned if they do and damned if they don't, this one's for you.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HObnxsijlHY

• Why the old three P's of masculinity (protector, provider, procreator) don't work in modern relationships anymore
• The "masculinity trap": criticized for being too stoic, then judged for opening up
• Why so many men are touch-starved, and how that quietly shapes their choices
• The STRONG model's first two pillars: safety (the four S's) and trust
• Why "getting the ick" from a man's vulnerability keeps men stuck in performance mode
• A practical first step for anyone whose worth has gotten tangled up in money, height, or status

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Kristal Desantis, licensed marriage and family therapist
• (00:57) Growing up around women, then discovering American dating culture from a sports bar
• (05:50) The old three P's of masculinity: protector, provider, procreator
• (09:53) Why men are people too, and where are the resources for their emotional growth
• (11:28) "Damned if I do, damned if I don't": vulnerability and getting "the ick"
• (14:03) A patient's confession: using sex as a stand-in for touch he couldn't ask for
• (16:40) Building the STRONG model for action-oriented men, like veterans and first responders
• (16:40) The four S's of safety: self-awareness, self-regulation, stability, being safe with emotions
• (23:14) The "multi-option woman, no-option man" trap, and dating by wallet
• (25:43) One practical tip for men without a support system after a bad date
• (27:22) Trust, attachment styles, and repairing a broken promise
• (32:27) Where to find Kristal's book, Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man

Kristal Desantis is a licensed marriage and family therapist known for her expertise in relationships, trauma work, and sex therapy. Her insights have been featured in Newsweek, HuffPost, The Good Men Project, and Time. She is the creator of the STRONG model of relational therapy and the author of "Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man," available in print and on Audible.

Connect with her on LinkedIn, or visit her website at strong.love.

• Strong.love: Kristal's website
• Kristal Desantis on LinkedIn
• "Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man," Kristal's book, available on Amazon and Audible
• "The Boy Crisis," referenced for the "multi-option woman, no-option man" framing

• The Art of True Connection in a Lonely World: more on building the kind of emotional safety Kristal describes.
• Vulnerability, Authenticity, and Connection: An Interview with Coach Lee Hopkins: another conversation on what it costs men to stay guarded.
• Finding Purpose After Relational Trauma: pairs with Kristal's chapter on trust and repairing broken promises.

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

My guest became friends with a homeless man from her church and took it as a sign from God, confirmation that her volunteer work with homeless people was on the right track. A few months later, during a snowstorm, she invited him to stay in her home instead of a shelter, because, she says, "I'm a nice person, that's why I do this." A few weeks later, that man was practically living with her, and she felt trapped in her own home. That's the moment Barb Nangle hit what she calls her "codependent bottom" in 2015, at 52 years old, after decades of therapy and self-help work that had never once given her the word she actually needed: codependent. What followed was a crash course in relational trauma, the kind that doesn't come from one explosive event but from years of quiet, ongoing emotional invalidation.

Barb is a boundaries coach, speaker, and the founder and CEO of Higher Power Coaching and Consulting, and she hosts the podcast "Fragmented to Whole: Life Lessons from 12 Step Recovery." She walks me through the haphazard, meandering path that took her from a church parking lot to Codependents Anonymous to Adult Children of Alcoholics, and how nine and a half years of 12-step recovery quietly taught her to build boundaries before she even had the word for what she was doing.

We get into what relational trauma actually looks like when your childhood home had food, a lawn, and parents who loved you, why "don't talk, don't trust, don't feel" are the three rules that keep dysfunctional families running, and how to hold a boundary calmly instead of waiting until you explode.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8_HlHgFMww

• Why relational trauma can look like a quiet "drip, drip, drip" of emotional invalidation, not one big explosive event
• Why relational trauma doesn't require physical abuse to be real, and how comparing your pain to someone else's can retraumatize you
• The three dysfunctional family rules: don't talk, don't trust, don't feel
• Why healthy boundaries start with naming your top five values, not with confrontation
• How to hold a boundary calmly instead of waiting until you explode
• Why "you're not being disloyal to the family, you're being disloyal to the dysfunction"

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Barb Nangle, boundaries coach and founder of Higher Power Coaching
• (01:00) Hitting a "codependent bottom" in 2015, and a homeless man named Dan
• (01:54) The ACA meeting: "we reparent ourselves"
• (08:51) Why relational trauma doesn't require physical abuse: "you've experienced 100% of your trauma and 0% of other people's"
• (11:45) Why the person who sets the boundary gets attacked in dysfunctional families
• (16:06) "Denial is the glue that holds dysfunctional families together"
• (18:31) How 12-step recovery accidentally taught Barb to build boundaries
• (22:23) Practical boundary examples: bedtime, smoking, weekend emails
• (24:52) What to do when someone pushes back on a new boundary
• (28:36) Why setting a boundary doesn't have to be confrontational
• (31:57) Where to find Barb's free Boundary Building Starter Kit

Barb Nangle is a boundaries coach, speaker, and the founder and CEO of Higher Power Coaching and Consulting. She hosts the podcast "Fragmented to Whole: Life Lessons from 12 Step Recovery," which recently passed its 300th episode. After hitting a "codependent bottom" in 2015 at age 52, she found healing through Codependents Anonymous, Adult Children of Alcoholics, and Overeaters Anonymous, and has lost over 100 pounds from her top weight along the way.

Learn more at Barb's website, or grab her free Boundary Building Starter Kit. Her podcast is at fragmented2whole.com.

• HigherPowerCC.com: Barb's coaching website
• Boundary Building Starter Kit: Barb's free multimedia kit, with videos, worksheets, and an article for anyone who says yes when they want to say no
• Fragmented to Whole: Barb's podcast, "Life Lessons from 12 Step Recovery," including a playlist of episodes specifically on boundaries

• Boundaries - Why Can't I Set Them?: more on the boundary-setting work Barb builds her coaching practice around.
• Getting Pulled Into the Past: Our Shame Response and the Impact of Unprocessed Trauma: pairs with Barb's story of unearthing childhood relational trauma.
• Why Traditional Masculinity Is Failing Modern Relationships: another conversation on how relational trauma and trust get rebuilt in adult relationships.

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

One of my guest's interview subjects took a fully remote marketing job and spent her first weeks scanning her new coworkers' faces on Zoom, trying to find any signal for what actually mattered at that company. She'd read a coworker's email and think, that has to be sarcasm. Then she'd get on camera with them and realize, oh my gosh, they were dead serious. That's what adapting to the modern workplace looks like now: equal parts wave and bewilderment. Craig Mattson, an organizational researcher and communication professor, spent years interviewing rising professionals about exactly this, and the metaphors he landed on (a wave of digital overwhelm, and the life raft you build to survive it) are why we're talking today.

Craig is a professor at Calvin University and the author of "Digital Overwhelm," built from dozens of conversations with Gen Z and millennial professionals navigating the intensities of the early 2020s workplace. He and I dig into what remote work quietly steals from us (facial cues, tone, trust) and what it sometimes hands back (safety, control, fewer unwanted approaches), plus why personality and home life shape how well any of us cope when the tech breaks down, which it always does.

We also tackle the question I know a lot of you are sitting with right now: if my job doesn't feel meaningful, should I quit? Craig's answer isn't a yes or no. It's four different postures people take toward meaningless-feeling work, and by the end you'll know which one you're in, and what to do about it.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzx6rGKTfjE

• Why remote work strips away the nonverbal cues that used to tell you what's actually going on at your job
• The four different ways people find meaning at work, and why "should I quit?" doesn't have one right answer
• How the digital-era "wave" of overwhelm hit every generation differently, from Gen X to Gen Z
• Why some personalities cope better with tech breakdowns than others, and how to borrow their calm
• What Craig's interviews revealed about remote work as an unexpected safety net for some women dealing with workplace harassment
• Dana's "cup of water in an ocean" reframe for anyone who feels like their work doesn't matter

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Craig Mattson, organizational researcher and author of Digital Overwhelm
• (01:30) Why Dana started Phoenix and Flame: the fire, the ashes, and the rebirth
• (02:59) The wave and the life raft: Craig's metaphors for digital-era work
• (07:10) The Zoom call where every email sounded like sarcasm until she saw their faces
• (14:02) Remote work, harassment, and the surprising safety of controlling your own camera angle
• (18:41) Why personality and temperament shape how well people cope with tech breakdowns
• (20:34) The mom who ran client calls with her kids pulling at her kneecaps
• (29:43) "If my job doesn't feel meaningful, should I quit?"
• (29:46) The four postures toward work: world-changers, therapists, thespians, and skeptics
• (35:44) Dana's "cup of water in an ocean" reframe
• (36:39) Where to find Craig and his book, Digital Overwhelm

Craig Mattson is an organizational researcher and professor at Calvin University in the field of communication. His research centers on the vocational experience of rising professionals, particularly Gen Z and millennials, and the intensities and pressures of the American workplace across generations. He is the author of "Digital Overwhelm," built from interviews with dozens of rising working professionals about coping with digital-era work.

Connect with him on LinkedIn, or read his writing at The Mode Switch.

• "Digital Overwhelm," Craig's book, built from interviews with rising professionals about coping with digital-era work pressures
• Craig Mattson on LinkedIn
• The Mode Switch, Craig's blog

• Signs of a Mismatched Career and How to Make a Change: more on Craig's exact question, should I quit if my job feels meaningless?
• Why Neurodiversity is Important in the Workplace: another look at what today's workplace owes every kind of employee.
• How Your Survival Brain is Sabotaging Your Happiness: pairs with Craig's take on coping with modern-day overwhelm.

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

My guest bought a little plastic herb keeper for his fridge, all excited about eating fresher food. His daughter picked it up, immediately threw it on the ground, and it broke into a million pieces. He didn't yell. He didn't say a word. He just turned his back on her. That quiet moment, he says, is exactly how shame gets passed down without anyone meaning to do it, and it's a perfect case study in what Matt O'Neill calls your "survival brain": the part of you that's wired to feel negative, not because something is wrong with you, but because that's literally its job.

Matt is a happiness educator and the author of "Good Mood Revolution," where he teaches conscious happiness: an intentional practice of catching the eight negative moods that hijack all of us (shame, overwhelm, hopelessness, and more) and swapping them for the eight positive ones. He's also a dad of four, runs two companies with $8 million in revenue and 80-plus employees, and somehow got his company named the number one place to work out of 470,000 companies in the state of South Carolina. Spoiler: gratitude had a lot to do with it.

We dig into why "I'll be happy when everything is perfect" is a lie that will chase you your whole life, the two habits Matt uses that take zero extra time (shower affirmations and a two-word ritual the second his feet hit the floor), and his "Grab the Rope" story for anyone who feels like life is beyond hope right now.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAZc1-QjFHc

• Why "I'll be happy when..." is a trap that never delivers, no matter how much you achieve
• How your survival brain turns ordinary stress into shame, and how to catch it in the act
• Two zero-extra-time habits (shower affirmations and a two-word wake-up ritual) that rewire negative self-talk
• The "Grab the Rope" story for anyone in a real crisis who feels hopeless
• Why gratitude is the fastest way out of a "meh" mood, and how it helped make Matt's company the #1 place to work in South Carolina
• How to be happy WHILE life is messy, instead of waiting for it to be perfect

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Matt O'Neill, happiness educator and author of Good Mood Revolution
• (01:20) Spinning plates: four kids, two businesses, and the trap of keeping up with the Joneses, and the lie that "if I just make everything perfect, then I'll be happy"
• (07:21) The eight negative moods, and the one underneath all of them: not feeling enough
• (10:43) The herb keeper story: how shame gets passed down without a single harsh word
• (13:25) Reprogramming a lie into a truth by writing new affirmations
• (16:55) The "no extra time" myth: shower affirmations and the two-word wake-up ritual
• (20:18) Dana's own gratitude experiment, and why journaling her feelings wasn't working
• (27:07) "Grab the Rope": the fable for anyone feeling hopeless
• (32:19) Why no one is really self-made, and what that means for asking for help
• (37:14) Where to find Matt and the Good Mood Revolution podcast

Matt O'Neill is a happiness educator and the author of "Good Mood Revolution: Igniting the Power of Conscious Happiness," which he also hosts as a weekly podcast. He is a father of four and co-runs two companies with $8 million in revenue and more than 80 employees, one of which was named the number one company to work for out of 470,000 companies in the state of South Carolina.

Learn more at Matt's website, or connect with him on LinkedIn.

• MattONeill.com: Matt's website
• Matt O'Neill on LinkedIn
• "Good Mood Revolution: Igniting the Power of Conscious Happiness," Matt's book, discussed throughout the episode (chapter three is "Grab the Rope")
• The Good Mood Revolution podcast, Matt's weekly show on building happiness habits

• How You Can Find Hope After Hitting Rock Bottom: another take on climbing out of the hopelessness Matt calls "grabbing the rope."
• Adapt or Drown: Finding Your Life Raft in the Modern Workplace: more tools for staying steady when life (and work) feels like too much.
• How to Spot Burnout Before It's Too Late: pairs with Matt's take on the "survival brain" behind chronic overwhelm.

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

Picture a teenager waking up at 3 a.m. to study for AP Biology, reading the same paragraph over and over, and it just will not go in. That was Khushboo Chabria in high school, years before anyone said the word ADHD to her. She carried that "something is wrong with me" feeling all the way into her thirties, into a career as a clinician who was, ironically, already serving neurodivergent kids every day. Neurodiversity in the workplace is not an abstract diversity-statement topic for her; it is her own life, cracked open at 31 when a late ADHD diagnosis finally explained a lifetime of unanswered questions.

Khushboo works with Neurodiversity Pathways at Goodwill of Silicon Valley as a career coach and mental health advocate, helping neurodivergent professionals enter and thrive in their careers. We talk about what happened when she brought her new diagnosis back to her own workplace (it did not go the way she hoped), the mindset shift she now teaches organizations, trading judgment for "compassionate curiosity," and why neurodiversity, like biodiversity or cultural diversity, is simply normal, not a problem to fix.

If you have ever felt underestimated, misunderstood, or like you were somehow doing life "wrong," this conversation is for you. We get into how to self-advocate when you do not have the words for what you need yet, common workplace misconceptions about neurodivergent behavior, and how to find your people when your current workplace is not one of them.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-l678RVMlo

• Why a late ADHD diagnosis is not "too late": it can answer a lifetime of unanswered questions about why you felt misunderstood
• The mindset shift from judgment to "compassionate curiosity" that changes how teams treat neurodivergent coworkers
• Why "when you meet one neurodivergent person, you've only met one," and what that means for how you support others
• How to advocate for your own accommodations before anyone else names them for you
• Common workplace misconceptions about neurodivergent behavior, and why "office humor" is not a universal language
• Where to find community if you suspect you are neurodivergent and feel like you are the only one

• (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet Khushboo Chabria, neurodiversity specialist and career coach
• (01:41) Diagnosed with ADHD at 31, as a "burnt out clinician"
• (04:45) The 3 a.m. study sessions, and a lifetime of "if only you would..."
• (06:38) Taking her diagnosis back to work, and slowly feeling managed out
• (10:36) What neurodivergence actually means, and why it's normal
• (14:38) The manager who said, "I don't want you to keep trying to prove you can do all the things"
• (16:27) Common misconceptions about neurodivergent behavior at work
• (17:25) From lenses of judgment to lenses of "compassionate curiosity"
• (23:52) How to advocate for yourself in a workplace that isn't working for you, and the book "Neurodiversity for Dummies"
• (29:41) Finding community, and advocacy groups like ASAN
• (32:38) Where to find Neurodiversity Pathways at Goodwill of Silicon Valley

Khushboo Chabria is a neurodiversity specialist, career coach, and mental health advocate with Neurodiversity Pathways at Goodwill of Silicon Valley, where she coaches neurodivergent professionals entering or navigating their careers. Diagnosed with ADHD at 31 after years of working as a clinician serving neurodivergent children, she is a co-author of the book "Neurodiversity for Dummies," published this year.

Connect with her on LinkedIn.

• Khushboo Chabria on LinkedIn
• "Neurodiversity for Dummies," the book co-authored by Khushboo's team, discussed as a resource for neurodivergent individuals, parents, educators, and managers
• Neurodiversity Pathways at Goodwill of Silicon Valley, Khushboo's organization, including their Career Readiness Training program for neurodivergent job seekers
• ASAN (Autistic Self Advocacy Network), mentioned as a Bay Area advocacy resource

• Anxiety at Work: another look at what it takes to feel safe and supported inside the modern workplace.
• How to Reclaim Your Energy When You're Burned Out: pairs with Khushboo's own burnout story before her diagnosis.
• Adapt or Drown: Finding Your Life Raft in the Modern Workplace: more on what today's workplace demands of every kind of brain.

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz

Someone asks you a simple question, "What do you want?" and your brain just stops. Not stalls. Stops. That's what happened to coach Arnold Beekes in his first coaching session, in his 40s, after decades running technology and organizational leadership teams. Nobody had ever asked him that before. Not once.

Arnold grew up with a father whose will "was the law," spent 20 years in tech and organizational leadership and another 20 in psychology and personal leadership, and now helps people do what he calls the art of unconditioning. We get into why he says most 25-year-olds have only ever learned to meet other people's expectations, his puppy-raised-as-a-cat analogy for what happens when we're forced into someone else's mold, and why comparing yourself to anyone else, in his words, is a waste of time, because nobody else is you.

You'll leave with his starting point for figuring out what you actually want instead of what you were trained to want: be a beginner again.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdgpQdZXcY4

• Why Arnold couldn't answer "What do you want?" in his 40s, and what that reveals about how most of us are raised
• The puppy-raised-as-a-cat analogy for what happens when we're conditioned to be someone we're not
• Why comparing yourself to other people (or other people's methods) is a trap, and what to do instead
• The "art of unconditioning": Arnold's process for taking back your power and starting to think for yourself
• How to build self-acceptance and self-confidence without needing anyone else's approval first
• Why conforming to society's basic rules (stop at red lights, don't cut the line) isn't the same as living someone else's life

• (21:47) Welcome and meet coach Arnold Beekes (after a couple of technical restarts)
• (22:21) Growing up with "my father's will was the law"
• (23:36) The bio line that stuck with Dana: "conditioned to live someone else's life"
• (26:16) The coaching question that stopped him cold: "Arnold, what do you want?"
• (28:11) Living your own life versus conforming for safety and approval
• (29:33) The puppy-raised-as-a-cat analogy
• (34:12) Finding balance between conforming and rebelling
• (38:05) Respecting your own uniqueness, and other people's
• (40:18) Why comparing yourself to other people's methods sets you up to fail
• (43:29) Moving from "not good enough" to self-acceptance
• (49:30) The art of unconditioning, explained
• (54:08) Where to find Arnold and his work

Arnold Beekes helps people move from fitting in to flying out. He grew up in an environment of extreme conformity, with a father who was a military officer both at work and at home. In his career, Arnold spent 20 years in technology and organizational leadership, then 20 years in psychology and personal leadership.

Learn more at Arnold's website, or connect with him on LinkedIn.

• braingym.fitness: Arnold's website, home to his coaching work on the art of unconditioning
• Arnold Beekes on LinkedIn

• The Courageous Life: Crafting Your Own Terms: same core question as Arnold's "what do you want" moment, from a different angle.
• Finding Yourself: Ascension From Childhood Dysfunction: another guest's journey out of a conditioning-heavy upbringing and into a life that's actually theirs.
• Why Young Adults Are More Stuck Than Ever: pairs with Arnold's point that by 25, most of us have only learned to meet other people's expectations.

If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show.

Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here.

Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz