In this Slate Plus segment, Barry is joined by Sarah Lustbader to discuss the issues raised in Episode 1: Criminal Minds. Sarah expresses skepticism about the significance of mens rea in ordinary prosecution of street crimes, Barry uses the opportunity to discuss the issue of moral luck as an explanation of why egregiousness of outcome seems to be the driving factor for prosecution rather than mens rea. The two end with a discussion of why the deontological/consequentialist distinction is so difficult to figure out for reform-minded advocates.

Join Slate Plus to unlock full, ad-free access to Hi-Phi Nation and the rest of your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe directly from the Hi-Phi Nation show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Or, visit slate.com/hiphiplus to get access wherever you listen.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices