The Drama of Discipleship: Re-Narrating Our Lives in God's Story

Episode 79

Dr. Greg Perry—New Testament scholar, President of Thirdmill Seminary, and author of The Drama of Discipleship—joins John Houmes fresh off a teaching tour across Asia. Their conversation moves from what the global church is actually asking (and how different it is from the West) to a fresh vision of discipleship: not a curriculum to master, but a drama to perform together inside God's story.

Greg unpacks the six "episodes" of the biblical story—Creation, Rebellion, Israel, Jesus, Church, New Creation—and the practices that flow from them. The conversation covers integral mission and the holding together of word and deed, the church as an embassy of Christ's kingdom in a host culture, the improv principle of "no blocking" as a posture toward our neighbors, the difference between fieldwork and heartwork, and why the small stories on offer from consumerism and politics can't bear the weight of a human life.

A rich, hopeful conversation for pastors, ministry leaders, and anyone longing to live inside a bigger story.

Greg's book: The Drama of Discipleship. His next book, Grace with Skin On: What Deacons Do (with Chris Sicks), releases Fall 2026.

"All the little stories on offer—consumerist, political, about physical beauty—they cannot bear the weight of being an image-bearer of God." — Dr. Greg Perry

The Drama of Discipleship (Greg Perry) • Grace with Skin On: What Deacons Do (Perry & Sicks, Fall 2026) • Third Millennium Ministries / Thirdmill Seminary • Adoniram Judson • The Lausanne Movement / integral mission • Cornelius Plantinga, Not the Way It's Supposed to Be • Dorothy Sayers • Christopher J. H. Wright, The Mission of God • Trevin Wax, The Thrill of Orthodoxy & Eschatological Discipleship • René Girard • Aaron Renn ("negative world") • Covenant Theological Seminary • New City Fellowship, St. Louis

discipleship, Greg Perry, The Drama of Discipleship, spiritual formation, evangelism, integral mission, global church, missions, Thirdmill, gospel, re-narration, meaning crisis, church as embassy, reconciliation, worship, witness, shalom, Christian discipleship, Post Everything

#PostEverything #Discipleship #GregPerry #DramaOfDiscipleship #SpiritualFormation #IntegralMission #GlobalChurch #Evangelism #Thirdmill #ChristianPodcast #Missions #Discipleship #Worship #Reconciliation

CHAPTERS

00:00 🎭 Witnesses, Not Mere Messengers

New Atheism & the Returning Ride w/ Justin Brierley:

Summary:

Justin Brierley spent nearly two decades hosting debates between the world's leading atheists and Christians on his show Unbelievable?. In that time he watched New Atheism rise, peak, and collapse—and then witnessed something he calls "the surprising rebirth of belief in God."

In this episode of Post Everything, Brad Edwards and John Houmes talk with Justin about the renewed openness to Christianity across the West, why young men in particular are exploring faith, and what the withdrawn Quiet Revival Report does (and doesn't) tell us. Justin unpacks the difference between revival and rebirth, the limits of cultural Christianity, the rise of "lapsed atheists," the gamification of faith through apps, and why the dehumanizing effects of AI make embodied Christian community more vital than ever.

A thoughtful, hopeful conversation for pastors, church leaders, and anyone trying to read the cultural moment we're living in.

Quotes:

"If all you're aiming for is Christian culture, sadly you won't even get that. You'll get a sub-biblical, idolatrous version of it… you can't have the effects without the source."

"Cultures only get changed when human hearts get changed—and that happens through Christ, ultimately."

Resources Mentioned:

Unbelievable?; The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God (book & podcast); Uncommon Ground — all by Justin Brierley • Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion • the Four Horsemen (Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett) • Tom Holland, Dominion • Matthew Arnold, "Dover Beach" • Douglas Murray • N.T. Wright • Rowan Williams • Jordan & Tammy Peterson • Bible Society's Quiet Revival Report; YouGov • Freya India, "The Commodification of Christianity" (GIRLS Substack) • Hallow, Glorify, YouVersion • Ayaan Hirsi Ali; Niall Ferguson • James Davison Hunter, Democracy and Solidarity • John Vervaeke • Mark Sayers, Rebuilders ("When the Fringe Becomes the Center") • Chris Martin, Terms of Service • The Gospel Coalition, Making Sense of Us • Brad Edwards, The Reason for Church

Key words:

New Atheism, surprising rebirth of belief in God, Justin Brierley, Unbelievable podcast, Christianity, apologetics, cultural apologetics, Gen Z faith, young men Christianity, Quiet Revival, cultural Christianity, meaning crisis, secularism, Tom Holland, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Richard Dawkins, Jordan Peterson, post-Christian culture, AI and faith, embodied community, church leadership, discipleship, revival, Post Everything

#PostEverything #JustinBrierley #NewAtheism #SurprisingRebirth #Christianity #Apologetics #CulturalApologetics #GenZ #MeaningCrisis #Faith #Church #Discipleship #ChristianPodcast #PostChristian

Chapters:

00:00 🪤 The Cultural Christianity Trap

Brad Edwards sits down with Jay Kim, pastor of Westgate Church in Silicon Valley and author of Analog Church, to discuss the spiritual implications of artificial intelligence—and why church leaders urgently need a response.

Key points:

• The difference between attention economy (social media) and attachment economy (AI)

• Why AI companions create relational attachment in ways social media never could

• How tech workers in Silicon Valley are experiencing spiritual crisis over AI displacement

• Marshall McLuhan's theory: When pushed to extremes, technology inverts on itself

• The spiritual discipline of sober-mindedness in an age of endless stimulation

• Why the church must become "weird" again to counter digital culture

• Practical formation practices to help your congregation think deeply (not just consume)

• How pastors can help disciples navigate vocational uncertainty in tech fields

• The role of curiosity and meandering as countercultural spiritual practices

Themes:

•      Spiritual formation in digital age

•      AI and human relationships

•      Church in Silicon Valley

•      Pastoral leadership in tech cities

•      Technology ethics and faith

Key words:

AI companion, Spiritual formation, Church leadership, Discipleship, Silicon Valley, Artificial intelligence, Technology ethics, Sober-mindedness, Pastoral care, Formation practices, Jay Kim, PostEverything, Digital culture, Embodied community, Tech workers

CHAPTERS:

Making Meaning by Making Enemies: 

Tribes, Mimetic Rivals, & Gospel Peace

With John Houmes and Brad Edwards

Why do we need enemies to feel like we belong? 

In this conversation, John and Brad unpack Trevin Wax's article "When the Tribe Eats the Church" through the lens of René Girard's scapegoat mechanism—revealing why communities (left and right) use the same tribal pattern to maintain unity.

From mimetic desire to mythological justification, from McCarthyism to cancel culture, we're watching the same mechanism play out in real-time: communities make meaning by making enemies.

But the Resurrection changes everything.

🎯 What You'll Hear

• How expressive individualism evolved into tribalism

• Girard's mimetic desire: we learn what to want by imitating others

• The scapegoat mechanism: communities uniting through accusation and expulsion

• McCarthyism vs. cancel culture—same pattern, different tribes

• Why mythology hides the violence of persecution

• How Christ's resurrection vindicated the innocent victim

• Why double imputation means Christians don't need another scapegoat

• What the church must offer: belonging rooted in worship, not enemies

• How gathered worship reorders our tribal identity

💡 KEY QUOTES

BRAD EDWARDS:

"We don't know how to exist, how to make sense of the world and make meaning without an enemy. That is an incredible enslavement that we have willingly walked into."

JOHN HOUMES:

"We're living in a story that's way too small. Jesus is victorious over our  deepest enemy—sin, death, and the devil. He rises from the dead in victory."

📚 RESOURCES

Trevin Wax, "When the Tribe Eats the Church" (Gospel Coalition, April 9, 2026)

René Girard, I See Satan Fall Like Lightning

Luke Burgis, Wanting: The Power of Mimetic Desire in Everyday Life

Eugene Peterson, The Pastor

Michelle Margolis, From Politics to the Pews

#Tribalism #Polarization #ScapegoatMechanism #RenéGirard #TrevinWax #Gospel #Church #Belonging #Identity #Discipleship #PostEverything

Chapters

00:00 🎯INTRO

01:17 🏘️Trevin Wax: When Tribe Eats Church

01:44 👤What Are Tribes? Examples Everywhere

03:32 🎭Tribalism's New Function: Making Meaning

05:47 📱Eugene Peterson: Digital Ecstasy

07:30 🚫Escape Isn't Transcendence

08:51 👎Making Meaning by Making Enemies

09:15 🤖Algorithms Designed to Deliver Enemies

10:17 🏛️Digital Disembodies Everything

11:41 🐴Horseshoe Theory: Same Battlefield

14:16 💔Church Planting on Enemy Opposition

16:36 🔄Echo Chambers Refuse New Ideas

19:45 ❌Tribal Concerns Become Gospel Tests

24:24 🗳️Politics Replaced Religion as Primary

27:34 🔍Introducing René Girard

29:41 🧠Mimetic Desire: We Learn Wanting

30:52 🏆Mimetic Rivalry: Victory Over Object

34:13 🎪Scapegoat Mechanism Brings Peace

37:11 📖Mythology Justifies the Perpetrators

38:20 ☮️McCarthyism and Cancel Culture Parallel

42:30 ✝️Gospel Uniquely Sides With Victim

43:10 🙏Resurrection Breaks the Mechanism

43:55 💫Double Imputation Means No Scapegoats

45:52 📜Stories Too Small, Jeremiah Example

57:25 🤝Church: Thick Belonging, Gospel Posture

Paideia Not Perfection: Kingdom Family Formation

With Pastor David Cassidy

What does it mean to disciple your children? It's not just rules and Bible verses. It's paideia—the ancient Greek word for formation, enculturation, shaping a person's reflexes, habits, and loves.

In this conversation with Pastor David Cassidy from Spanish River Church, we explore:

• Why behavior management isn't the goal (we don't want "chocolate soldiers")

• The role of beauty, literature, and nature in forming kingdom citizens

• How to start: Who's discipling YOU?

• Why the dinner table is a sacred space

• The difference between a family with Christian elements vs. a family enculturated in the kingdom

• How to build resilient faith in your kids—faith that doesn't crumble when life disappoints

David offers hope: this isn't about perfection. It's about direction. It's a slow drip over 18 years, not a weekend seminar.

⏱ CHAPTERS

00:00 Intro

00:17 Welcome & Paideia overview

01:44 What is paideia? (Greek word unpacked)

04:52 Kingdom paideia vs. family with Christian elements

06:08 Theology comes at your fingertips

08:01 The centrality of love in formation

09:20 Christian worldview isn't enough

13:15 What does a resilient disciple look like?

15:40 Remember whose you are

17:11 Gospel astonishment and enjoyment of Christ

19:07 What shatters faith?

21:28 Chocolate soldiers vs. hearts of repentance

23:34 Fear of the Lord can be taught

25:12 Anti-discipleship forces

28:16 The church's role in kingdom paideia

32:34 Christian schools as an extension of discipleship

34:19 Partnership between parents, church, and school

35:05 How do we practically bring kingdom paideia home?

36:54 Who's discipling YOU?

39:11 Great classics to read

42:11 Taking trips

44:41 Slow drip, not a week-long retreat

44:53 Why the dinner table matters

47:38 Food as connector and sacred space

49:36 Three takeaways from John

📚 RESOURCES MENTIONED

Ephesians 6:4 (paideia language)

Edith Hamilton's Greek Mythology

Augustine's Confessions

Shakespearean Sonnets

John Milton

C.S. Lewis (The Kilns, his home)

Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, Chronicles of Narnia

Psalm 25 ("Remember whose you are")

Westminster Shorter Catechism

Heidelberg Catechism

💡 KEY QUOTES

"We don't want chocolate soldiers. We want kids who have resilient faith."

"Paideia is about forming reflexes, habits, loyalties, and loves. What kind of human being are we trying to produce?"

"Theology comes at your fingertips—not just a statement of faith you sign your name to, but how you live."

"Who's discipling YOU? That's where we start as parents."

"The dinner table is not a sacrament, but it's a sacred moment."

"This is about direction, not perfection. It's a slow drip over 18 years."

🎙️ ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION

This is a crossover episode between PostEverything (a podcast on culture and formation) and Rooted by the River (a parenting podcast). While Rooted focuses on family discipleship, David's theology of formation through culture, beauty, literature, and everyday rhythms connects deeply to how the Church forms people in a post-Christian age.

Rooted by the River is a Spanish River Church parenting podcast dedicated to equipping families to root deep in Jesus and His love.

spanishriver.com | rootedbytheriver.com

Neil Shenvi on Wokeness, Truth, and the Church

What does it mean to respond to wokeness without panic, caricature, or reactionary tribalism?

In this episode of Post Everything, Brad Edwards and John Houmes sit down with Neil Shenvi, co-author of Post-Woke, to talk about the cultural position of Christianity in 2026, the power of contemporary critical theory, and how churches can form people who are neither ideologically captured nor politically naive.

The conversation explores the complexity of our current moment: Are we in a “negative world,” an apathetic world, or something even more fragmented? How should Christians think about “woke natives,” younger generations shaped by DEI frameworks, oppressor/oppressed binaries, and moral urgency? And how do pastors offer both compassion and clarity when so much of the culture is driven by polarization, fear, and identity conflict?

Shenvi argues that critical theory is not merely a tool or political lens, but a worldview with its own account of identity, justice, truth, and righteousness. But he also warns Christians against responding with simplistic anti-woke rhetoric or drifting toward equally unbiblical reactionary movements on the right.

Together they discuss:

This is a conversation about formation, truth, and the future of the Church in a deeply contested cultural moment.

Key Themes

Chapters

00:00 Intro

02:37 Christianity’s Cultural Position

07:03 Clarity Without Dismissal

13:36 Dialogue, Sources, Truth

18:45 Theory Becomes Religion

25:29 Four Pillars Explained

30:48 When Theory Corrupts

33:41 Poison, Not Meat

35:34 The Woke Right

40:20 Gen Z's Tension

43:39 Can't Split Jesus

47:51 Formation Without God

52:10 Trust Replaces Power

57:23 Love and Truth

01:00:40 Worship Reorients Everything

01:05:33 Pillars as Religion

01:12:44 Justice Without King

01:19:23 God First Vertically

01:28:29 Get to Church

Secularization Isn’t Gravity

Apatheism, Exile, and Mission Without Power (with Stefan Paas)

Is Christianity declining in the West—or are we misunderstanding what’s happening?

Missiologist Stefan Paas argues that secularization isn’t inevitable. It’s not gravity. Instead, it’s the result of millions of personal decisions—and that means its trajectory can change.

In this episode of Post Everything, John Houmes talks with Paas about the rise of apatheism—a cultural moment where God isn’t rejected so much as ignored—and what it means for Christian mission in a post-Christian society.

Rather than responding with panic, nostalgia, or attempts to reclaim cultural power, Paas suggests that the Church may need to rediscover something much older: faithful witness from the margins.

Together they discuss:

Why indifference may be a bigger challenge than hostility

The surprising religious curiosity among younger generations

What Christians can learn from the biblical experience of exile

Why worship may be one of the most countercultural practices left

How the Church can maintain its identity without resentment

Why mission today may look less like conquest—and more like creating small “niches” of hope and beauty

Chapters

00:00 Intro

03:50 🧐 Christianity's Current Social Position

09:20 Christian Proclamation Amidst Apatheism

11:20 ⚽️ Christians on Liverpool FC

12:00 🎙️ Proclamation through Podcasting

16:00 Worship as Rebellion

20:55 ✝️ 🇺🇸Faith Identity & National Identity

21:30 Secularization as Exile

27:30 Learning From Historic Black Church

29:00 Identity Maintenance in Exile

34:00 Formation as Preparation for Exile

35:30 ⛪️ Six Western Types of Churches

36:30 🇺🇸 American Impulses in Church Style

40:00 Love of Enemies in Exile

43:40 ⏱️ The Kingdom of God - Geography or Chronology?

44:30 Doxology & Mission Aren't Efficient

50:05 John's Favorite Paas Quote

52:53 Is God Behind Secularization?

55:00 🌎 ⛪️The Church & the World

56:00 Christian Spirituality & Identity in Exile

59:00 Secularization = Sum of a Million Decisions

1:01:45 So Many Enemies

In this follow-up to our conversation with Dr. George Yancey, John and Brad wrestle with a pressing question:

How do Christians live as holy, set-apart people—both hospitable and faithful—while navigating exile and cultural chaos?

Drawing on current tensions in Minneapolis and the broader polarization shaping our moment, they explore how alienation on both the left and the right fuels entitlement, outrage, and a destructive feedback loop that makes collective problem-solving nearly impossible.

But this episode isn’t just cultural analysis—it’s pastoral.

Brad introduces a crucial distinction: revival chasing vs. remnant building. In a liminal age, the church’s calling may not be dramatic cultural takeover, but patient formation—becoming a people anchored in Christ, capable of loving our enemies without fear.

In this episode:

Why alienation is driving polarization on both sides

How compassion becomes weaponized into coercion

The “feedback loop” fueling culture-war escalation

Why small churches may be uniquely positioned right now

Revival chasing vs. remnant building

Why loving our enemies is not optional Christianity

Letting the Kingdom—not the culture—set the table for our faith

At the heart of it all: Jesus did not come to defeat a political party. He came announcing the Kingdom of God. And He loved His enemies all the way to the cross.

Hashtags:

Chapters:

00:00 – Intro

#FaithAndCulture #ChurchLeadership #SpiritualFormation

Identity Politics, Polarization & Moral Persuasion — with Dr. George Yancey

Why does every political controversy feel like a Rorschach test?

In this episode of Posteverything, sociologist Dr. George Yancey joins us to explore identity politics, polarization, and whether moral persuasion still works in a culture that rewards outrage over understanding.

We discuss how framing everything through power and oppression reshapes public discourse, why polarization may be a crisis of moral formation rather than ideology, and what happens when shared moral language erodes.

We also examine Tim Keller’s “Third Way,” the limits of political power, and the church’s role in forming people who can engage culture without being consumed by it.

This is a conversation about truth, trust, leadership—and what kind of people we need to become in a liminal age.

🔍 Big Questions We Explore

Is identity politics a strategy—or a substitute religion?

When does moral persuasion break down?

What happens when we lose shared moral language?

What kind of people do we need to become in a liminal age?

CHAPTERS

00:00 Intro

John and Brad welcome back renowned political scientist, ethicist and

They discuss advancements in artificial intelligence (AI) and its implications for society. Singer reflects on the evolution of AI over the past two and a

Chapters:

00:00-02:00 Intro

02:01-10:18 What's changed in two and a half years in AI?

10:18-20:29 Ukraine/Russia drone warfare and tech advances

20:30-35:00 U.S. Rivalry w/ China...and Taiwan

35:00-47:59 Military Advancements and Societal Impacts

48:00-54:05 Cancer Kicks (Peter's Son's Non-Profit)

54:06-1:07:33 John and Brad's Take-Aways

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