You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your March Extra Butter.

Today we’re talking about Dr. Becky Kennedy, the beloved parenting influencer. We’ll get into:

⭐️ The Dr. Becky mantra that Virginia uses…often.

⭐️Why you don’t need to cook dinner for your kids at 3pm.

⭐️ The infamous “school nurse call” post.

⭐️ Is Dr. Becky — and parenting content more broadly— a diet or diet-adjacent?

This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast! You’ll find all of the links aggregated here.

Virginia

We’re talking about Dr. Becky Kennedy! I am excited. I think this is going to be a very interesting one, because Corinne, I don’t know if you are aware, people love Dr. Becky. Like, really, really love her. If you look at testimonials online, people will credit her with saving their marriages, saving their parenting life.

Corinne

So she has fans.

Virginia

Yes. And I think there’s a lot to love about her work and her messaging. But, as we’re going to get into, there are also some strange themes in her work. It’s a little bit diet culture. It’s a little bit Nice White Lady.

And I think there are ways in which all of that ends up making her advice less useful to the average parent than her Internet following wants us to believe. So I’m bracing for impact on this episode. Ee may get some emails.

To kick it off, Corinne—what do you know about Dr Becky, as someone who doesn’t have kids and doesn’t have to understand how to manage tantrums?

Corinne

Well, just a few weeks ago, a friend of mine sent me one of her Instagram reels, which was about learning to fail, living with failure, and how that can be useful. I liked it. I thought it was great. And then I went to look at her profile, and I was like, OH, this is that Dr. Becky??

I guess I thought she did more parenting and kid feeding stuff and her Instagram wasn’t really about that.

Virginia

So she is a clinical psychologist, and she specializes in parenting advice, not just feeding. She definitely talks about feeding, but it’s much more big picture. I will read you her official bio:

“I’m a clinical psychologist, mom of three, and founder of Good Inside. When I was first starting out, I practiced a popular behavior, first reward and punishment model of parent coaching. But after a while, something struck me. Those methods feel awful for kids and parents, so I got to work taking everything I know about attachment, mindfulness, emotion, emotional regulation and internal family systems theory, and translated those ideas into a new method for working with parents.”

So it’s like every aspect of parenting, potty training, sleep issues, whether or not to use punishments.

Corinne

I do not know what a “behavior first reward and punishment system” is. I don’t know what that means.

Virginia

So this is where I’m very much in agreement with Dr. Becky. She’s critical of authoritarian style parenting, where it’s very like, “ou have to follow the rules and do what we say, or there are punishments,” and the punishments maybe don’t always make sense.

Corinne

Like, eat your vegetables or you won’t get screen time?

Virginia

Right? Eat your vegetables or no dessert. No TV because you didn’t make your bed. All stuff that maybe seems sort of random to the kids.

She’s also critical of using rewards if kids do a good job, like using a lot of gold stars and prizes and things to get them to behave the way you want. Which is a very compliance-based approach to parenting.

I’m describing her work — I’m not blaming anyone who was raised in that model, or who finds themselves parenting in that model. There are definitely times where you’re like, “The only thing that’s going to get me through this is figuring out a bribe, and that’s just where we are.” And you know what, it’s real.

We can link to some work from folks like Melinda Wenner Moyer who reports on this in a lot more detail. (Check out: This piece, this piece and this one, plus Melinda’s episode of this podcast about why both pressure and rewards can backfire.)

Across parenting research, there has been a shift away from “let’s use prizes and punishments to get kids to behave,” towards “let’s understand what makes kids ‘misbehave.’” What’s going on underneath the outbursts or the lack of cooperation, or whatever you’re encountering? And so that’s what Dr Becky really talks about. She’s pulling together attachment theory, mindfulness, and Internal Family Systems theory.

Corinne

So is this what would be called gentle parenting, or is this different?

Virginia

Yes, this is definitely gentle parenting. Gentle parenting is a term that gets thrown around but it has no official definition. There are many different flavors of gentle parenting. But Dr Becky is, I think a lot of people would agree, the most famous face of the gentle parenting movement.

I think there are a lot of misconceptions about gentle parenting, which are important to say, too. People often think gentle parenting means you never use a consequence for your kid, or you never give them boundaries. And that’s not what she’s saying. She actually gives quite a lot of boundaries. We’ll talk about that. But it is much more of a child-centered approach, where you try to understand them as people with complicated emotions and needs, versus “Why don’t you just do what I say!” I’m painting with a very broad brush, of course.

I will also say, unlike Mel Robbins our trial-lawyer-turned-self-help-guru, Dr. Becky is a real psychologist. She has all the degrees and clinical training. She has worked with families and has clinical skills and training. So that definitely makes me appreciate her perspective more.

I would say, though, as someone who’s reported parenting stories for a long time—a lot of her messaging is a repackaging of other people’s research and work. These are not necessarily her own innovative ideas. I think she’s very good at pulling together a lot of what other people are talking about, and figuring out how to distill it in a way that works well in Instagram reels.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. I’m not saying it’s like a plagiarism situation like we had with Mel Robbins. But I just think it’s worth noting that she is benefiting from decades of other people’s work in order to come up with her new method for working with parents.

Corinne

Hmm. Interesting.

Virginia

Okay, I’ve got a couple of Dr. Becky reels that represent the aspects of her work I first connected with. I mean, she’s someone who’s definitely helped me out of some tough spots. My kid’s dad also really likes her content.

So you can pick one that sounds interesting to you, and we can look at it.

Corinne

I’m just going to click on the first one:

Virginia

What’s your take?

Corinne

It’s interesting. It seems like the first thing is she’s acknowledging the feelings happening, but then also saying, like, “I’m acknowledging your feelings and—

Virginia

“We still have to get in the car.”

Corinne

“We still need to do what we need to do.”

Virginia

This is a common misconception about gentle parenting—that it’s only acknowledging the feelings. Because then. with a lot of kids, you just get caught in this loop. I think a lot of us, when we try it, get caught in that place. It’s really hard to move past the part where you acknowledge your child’s feelings, because no child in the middle of a tantrum or transition anxiety or anything is ever like, “Thank you for acknowledging my feelings. I will now put my shoes on.” They stay there venting and emoting, and you’re like, But I’ve acknowledged your feelings! Now I need to get you in the car.

Corinne

Does acknowledging a kid’s feelings help before you have to grab their arm and drag them out the door?

Virginia

I think it’s better to do it that way than to just drag them out the door?

As someone who’s been trying to do this for most of my parenting, I do think my kids have a strong sense that their feelings matter and should be heard. So I think there is value in it. But what it’s not, is it’s not a quick fix. It doesn’t instantly regulate the kid who’s gotten dysregulated and upset.

It helps you steer the ship through the chaos, but the chaos continues around you. So I think that’s where sometimes people get tripped up about it.

Corinne

It kind of reminds me of Division of Responsibility in some ways, because it’s sort of like outlining who’s in charge of what, and then stating it and then doing it.

Virginia

Dr. Becky is a big fan of division of responsibility. Parents are in charge of what’s offered. Kids are in charge of whether they eat it. Kids are in charge of their hunger.

Corinne

Here parents are in charge of making sure that you get places on time.

Virginia

You’re in charge of how you feel about it. Yeah, that’s really true and that is basically it, right? Like, I still have to get you to go to bed, but you can be in charge of how angry you are about the fact that it’s bedtime.

Okay, the second reel that I put is something else I really like that she does, which kind of helps me understand the broader picture.

Corinne

Okay, this one is called getting good at repair.

Okay, I like that. I like that. Seems good for all relationships.

Virginia

Yes, exactly. We all need to learn repair in all of our relationships. It is definitely not a skill that comes naturally to me, I will own. And so, I have worked on it. And what I especially like about it is Dr Becky acknowledging that you can try “I validated your feelings. I know this is hard. I have to hold the boundary,” and a lot of the time, you’re still going to end up screaming at your kid because you’re human. You just can’t stay calm and navigate them through every storm with the perfect script that she’s given you.

I read an interview with her where she said, her three kids only get the perfect Dr Becky parent, like, I don’t know, 30% of the time or something. And the rest of the time she’s just like us, just losing her mind and then repairing. And I was like, okay, this makes me like you. You’re not expecting us all to be robotically parroting these scripts to our kids all the time, because it doesn’t feel authentic.

Corinne

No. And that does seem important to teach kids about, too. How to face the facts when you have done harm or made a mistake.

Virginia

Yes, you’re modeling to them that if you screw up and yell at them, you’re going to come back and say you’re sorry. And open the conversation and make space for their being upset about that. And hopefully that then they would also start to learn to do that when they are the ones.

And I think it lets you parent as a real person who gets upset. Our emotions are not our kids responsibility—a seven year old should not be worrying about whether her mom’s a happy person, right? That’s not an appropriate dynamic. But our kids can know that we are human beings who get frustrated and cranky as well, and that this is a two way relationship. And their parents are not just robots who live to serve them. As I like to remind my middle schooler when she’s asking me to get her a glass of water when she’s sitting right next to the sink and I’m across the room.

Corinne

Okay, this next video is called How to Respond to Whining.

I mean, does seem insightful.

Virginia

I gotta say, I used this one yesterday actually! Because I watched this reel yesterday as I was preparing for this episode. And then, as it happens, one of my children presented me with the perfect opportunity to practice this. And the mantra piece in particular was so helpful. When I first watched the reel, I was like, “ugh, it’s Mel Robbins and high fiving yourself in the mirror.” But saying, “I’m safe, this is not an emergency,” actually did make me take a second and stay calmer before I launched into negotiations with this child.

And it definitely felt super cheesy. But I need to remember that I don’t have to join that party, and be at a 10 with her. I can stay in charge of my feelings. So it was very helpful.

Corinne

I think that’s good advice. Generally, this is just good interpersonal advice. Like, take a moment before you react. Someone else’s negative feelings are not your house being on fire.

Virginia

Okay, now let’s talk about some other notes that come up a lot in Dr. Becky’s work, which I feel more complicated about. In some cases, I think is this just because she settled on a brand that requires her to make Instagram content seven days a week? Some are going to be a swing and a miss, right? You’re throwing spaghetti at the wall, and it doesn’t all stick. Or is there an underlying theme? But the more I think about it, I think there is a little bit of an underlying theme. I don’t think it negates what’s good about her work. But I do think it’s something people should be clear on. The first one is actually something I wrote about last year. Why don’t we revisit the concept of the 4pm dinner?

Corinne

Yes, I remember this. She’s presenting a parenting hack, and the hack is that you serve your kids dinner right after school instead of giving them a snack. And then you eat dinner later?

Virginia

Yes. So your kids come home from school or camp absolutely ravenous. That’s when you feed them a full meal with like the vegetables and the protein and the things you want them to eat at dinner. And then you have your normal dinner, and they get an evening snack, like a bedtime snack, while you’re having your regular dinner at six or seven, and then they go to bed.

And this is one of these Internet parenting hacks that you hear it, and there is some logic to it, right? Because it’s totally true. My kids come from starving at the end of the school day, and they eat a million snacks, and then often they aren’t hungry for dinner, and it is frustrating. And—anyone who works cannot be cooking dinner at 2pm!

Corinne

I mean, I feel this myself. Sometimes I’m ready for dinner at 4:30 but I also have to cook myself dinner.

Virginia

And when was I supposed to start doing that?

Corinne

I would be stopping working at like 2pm.

Virginia

I mean, you and I both have very flexible work from home lives, and it does not make sense for us to be like, “Okay, no, we can’t podcast record at that time because we have to start our dinner prep at 1pm so that we can be eating.” It’s like, no, it still makes sense for me to start making dinner at five o’clock, And that’s frankly, some days, ambitious.

Corinne

Yes. And it does feel like there’s a little bit of morality that a meal is better than a snack.

Virginia

Absolutely.

This is a little snippet I wrote in the piece:

Super early dinner is advertised as a way to get kids eating more “real food” and fewer snacks. It’s a perfect distillation of so many of the diet culture messages we grew up internalizing: The romanticization (by Michael Pollan and later his disciple Gwyneth Paltrow) of eating “real food, mostly plants, not too much;” the “don’t eat after 7pm” rule; the fear mongering around ultra processed foods, and our perpetual parenting anxiety that our children are eating too many snacks.

Parents have been taught to fear kids snack foods on so many levels.

And another way to reframe this is to say, my kids come home from school ravenous. I am finishing work, or they are in an after school program, or whatever you have for your afternoon child care block. It makes sense for them to have portable, readymade packaged snacks that they can eat to fill up then, and they may not eat an amazing dinner later. Or, you know, maybe they will. But it’s just not the time where I can serve them a home cooked meal. And that’s okay. So isn’t it great that we have prepared packaged foods that make that time easier to feed our kids?

I think the other piece of it is the privilege involved. Either you have a stay-at-home parent who can do this cooking, or you have a nanny. I strongly suspect, given that Dr Becky Kennedy runs her empire from the Upper East Side of New York, that there is a nanny. Which I have no problems with! Childcare is very important work, and I hope that person is being very well compensated for their labor. But there’s no naming of that in her reel. She doesn’t say, “I’m so fortunate that our nanny can make dinner for the kids at four o’clock.”

Okay, so now let’s click on when the school nurse calls.

Corinne

This feels similar. She’s not acknowledging that a lot of parents are working during the day.

Virginia

They’re not like, “I’m having coffee with a friend. How disappointing I have to cancel that.” They’re like, yeah, if, I leave my job…

Corinne

Which is also totally reasonable but, like, have you ever considered how stressful it is to have to tell your boss that you have to leave?

Virginia

What if you are a doctor seeing patients, or a teacher with a classroom of kids, or a retail worker who is dependent on that shift?

There are so many jobs that are not easy to just walk out of because your kid is sick. Your boss isn’t going to be like, sure, no worries. Have a good day. Good luck with everything. And there’s just no mention of that.

Corinne

Yeah, that is very interesting. She’s literally like, “When your kids are at daycare, that’s your time to for yourself.”

Virginia

You’re filling up your cup by…earning the money that pays for the daycare and also the groceries or the rent or the mortgage.

Corinne

It’s just weird because that can’t be her situation really! She’s clearly working a lot.

Virginia

Yeah, I don’t understand. I mean, she’s working, but she obviously loves her job. Maybe this does fill her up.

I will say, too, when I did her podcast during the Fat Talk book tour, we were chatting a little bit before we started recording, and she mentioned that she had just come from her Thursday morning breakfast and workout that she does with her best friends to make sure she sees her friends during the week. They all meet up after the kids go to school, workout in the gym in her building, and then make a breakfast together every Thursday morning. And I was like, huh, my life doesn’t involve a standing two hour socialization opportunity on a weekday morning. So I don’t know. I mean, it sounded lovely, but that is not a typical way that most working parents are spending Thursday morning.

Corinne

That is interesting,

Virginia

Between the dinner thing and the school nurse one, I just started to feel like there is a level of privilege that is not being acknowledged in this parenting content. And again to draw a parallel with intuitive eating, it reminds me of how intuitive eating often gets very rightful criticism for not taking into account like class issues and racism and things like that. Or how Division of Responsibility has a lot of ableism that means it doesn’t meet every neurodivergent kid where they are. There’s not this this awareness of the fact that not everyone can waste food. Not everyone has the flexibility and the privilege to eat intuitively all the time. And I think there’s a similar dynamic here where, yes, this does sound lovely. This does sounds like a lovely way to parent, to make dinner at four o’clock. But how does this translate to real people’s lives? It doesn’t.

I think the last one I want to look at is her thoughts on how to share the mental load.

Corinne

At least from what I’ve heard or observed about this, usually the conflict comes from even trying to get someone to acknowledge that you’re doing more of the mental load?

Virginia

That it exists at all. Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s the first step.

Corinne

So this sort of seems like it’s assuming absolutely no conflict around it.

Virginia

And that it’s just a total accident that one partner has been doing more, but as soon as you point it out, they’re gonna be like, “Great, let’s sit down and make a plan and even that right out, no problem.”

I also think it’s really interesting that there’s no mention of gender in that post.

Corinne

Good point.

Virginia

On the one hand, maybe she’s trying to be inclusive of same sex partners who struggle with this dynamic, and that’s great. But knowing who the majority of her audience is, and the majority of people who struggle with mental load imbalances in their relationships, it’s straight women married to straight men. And there is no acknowledgement of that context, or of the larger systems of oppression that have created that dynamic.

So it’s like she thinks she can just help people work this out on an emotional level with their partner, without taking into account the fact that the entire world is built to make it happen this way.

Corinne

She’s never acknowledging the greater systems at play that would make being able to cook dinner at 3pm impossible or having your kid’s daycare be ‘me time’ or partners not equally splitting labor. It’s always just framed as an individual issue.

Virginia

Exactly. And on the one hand, I guess I can understand that her training is clinical psychology. She works on an individual level with people. That’s what she does, right? She coaches parents and people in relationships on how to problem solve these things. But to do that without the larger systems at least being named—that feels like it’s limiting how much good her advice can do. Because the real world application of it is always going to happen in a context where those systems exist.

I will also say, on the feeding kids stuff, while she is a big fan of Division of Responsibility, it’s kind of the same thing. She presents division of responsibility very simplistically: You’re in charge of what’s offered, kids are in charge of whether they eat it. And she’ll throw out the example of, “you’re serving meatballs, pasta, and tomatoes for dinner. The kid only eats pasta. That’s fine.” That’s how you leave it.

But in my house, there’s often one kid who wouldn’t eat any of those things, and would also need a second thing on the table to account for the fact that they won’t eat any parts of that meal. There are neurodivergent kids who have a different set of needs. There’s budget and the fact that the kids are only going to eat pasta and you made these meatballs, which leads to food waste issues.

And I think it is also heavily implied that you’re doing this division of responsibility thing because you want kids who are not picky, and by “not picky,” we mean “eats a lot of vegetables,” ultimately.

So that’s the overall theme that I see cropping up. Again, this is not a takedown episode. I don’t think Dr. Becky is a full-on grifter or anything like that. But I do notice this recurring theme of entitlement and lack of context. And maybe that’s just a factor of being an online advice giver, where there can’t really be any context, and maybe we should all be considering why we get advice from people talking into their phones on the Internet. But it’s something I’ve really been noticing and wanted to talk about.

Corinne

OK, so where do we land? Is Dr. Becky a diet?

Virginia

I…think she is not? Well? I was going to say no, but the more I thought about it as we’ve worked on this episode, I think the diet part is that she’s holding up a promise of what your parenting life can be like, that is likely always going to be just out of reach. That you will always be able to validate their feelings. That your child can emotionally regulate themselves. That you can stay calm and in control. That you can have this deep connection with your kids that will make you feel like you’re excelling at parenthood…

I don’t think that’s realistic for us to expect to achieve in any 100 percent of the time sense. I was just telling you about having a really lovely dinner with my kids last night, and then one of them going off the rails right after. It just feels, for a lot of us, that even when it’s good, the hard parts are just, like, 20 minutes away? And I think a lot of this parenting content can make us feel worse about that because it feels like we’re doing something wrong if we’re not achieving the vision that she’s selling.

Corinne

I feel similarly. Is she a diet? Not in the sense that a diet is a way of modifying your eating habits to lose weight.

Virginia

We’re talking about metaphorical diets, in these conversations. We’re not saying she’s trying to make kids lose weight. We’re using “diet” as a metaphor here, as we frequently do on Burnt Toast, to explore where is this person replicating some of the harm we see coming out of diet culture.

Corinne

Yeah. It is a sort of dream world that she’s selling.

Virginia

And there is still a lot of prescriptive advice. There’s a lot of “follow these scripts” and “take these steps” to notice a change. And that feels diet culture-adjacent to me.

Alright! That was our look inside Dr. Becky. I’m very curious to hear what folks think about her. I’m sure a lot of people in the Burnt Toast community have been following her advice for a long time, so I’d love to hear what worked, what didn’t work, what your takeaways are. Tell us everything.

Corinne

Yeah, and I’m really happy that now I know who Dr Becky is.

Virginia

You’re such a good sport when we do this parenting content. I appreciate you.

Corinne

Do you have a Butter?

Virginia

I do have a Butter. I am going to talk about a Butter that I feel a little shy to talk about on the podcast. But we are a body positive space, and that is core to what we do, and so I am going to talk about vulva balm.

Corinne

Wow, incredible. I feel like this has been coming up in the comments a lot. I guess because I was talking about moisturizing.

Virginia

Oh yeah, over on Big Undies you’ve been talking a lot about skincare and moisturizing.

Corinne

It has come up multiple times.

Virginia

Well, so what I will say is, if you are in perimenopause, or you are just a person with a vulva, this can happen in many stages of life, but particularly in perimenopause, you may be feeling more dry and chafed at times. And itchy, perhaps. And if that is sounding familiar, those terms, this product, which was recommended by my gynecologist, is great. It’s a brand called Medicine Mama, and the product I use is called VMagic Vulva Balm, and it’s just basically a mix of organic oils and whatnot. It’s for discomfort, dryness, safe for daily use, good for sensitive skin. I just went through my first jar, and I will be doing their Subscribe and Save option now, because I really like having this on hand. It is quite useful.

Corinne

It looks amazing.

Virginia

Obviously, talk to your gynecologist or your midwife or whoever as well if you’re having these symptoms, there can be more things going on. We love an antibiotic, etc. But just for relieving immediate discomfort, Vulva Balm is great.

Corinne

Yeah, all parts of your body need moisturizing.

Virginia

They really do. We are hoping to do more episodes on perimenopause. We’re reaching out to some potential guests. So if you guys have questions about perimenopause, body things, we want to get into it. It’s pertinent to our interests. At least my interests! Corinne is an infant.

Corinne

It’s coming for me.

Virginia

It’s coming for you, babe.

All right, what’s your Butter?

Corinne

My Butter is also skincare related. I want to recommend a sunscreen as we are getting into the warmer months. I have this one I really like called Dune. I forget how I first discovered this. It is a little bit expensive. I want to say this little bottle is like $25, but it says invisible gel. I will say it doesn’t come out clear. It’s like kind of a greenish color, but it really goes in very easily, and it’s not super greasy. I love it. It feels almost more watery. So I really like it, and I recommend it.

Virginia

That is really good. I feel like I’m always looking for a good face sunscreen. Do you use it for your face?

Corinne

Yeah, this brand has different ones, but this one is the mug guard, so it’s specifically for your face. And some of the other ones I’ve tried are scented, and I’m really picky about scented stuff, but this one is not.

Virginia

Excellent. Well, we’re looking out for your faces and your labia, and you’re welcome. That’s what we come here to do.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!