We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your January Indulgence Gospel.

Today, we’re getting into three big questions for you:

• Does sugar destroy your immune system?

• How do we stay hopeful when fat activism gets hard?

• What’s the deal with 1000 Hours Outside—is it good parenting, or is it diet culture?

And we’re going to get into favorite books, favorite snacks, good shows to puzzle by, Corinne’s new favorite jeans, and (inexplicably?) Virginia’s strong feelings about children’s birthday parties.

This is a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $5 per month or $50 for the year. Or you can join Extra Butter for just $99 for the year—which includes a monthly live chat and even more Indulgence Gospel, plus a comp subscription to Cult of Perfect.

This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!

Corinne

Virginia. It’s time for our monthly check-in about pants.

Virginia

I don’t think I have any breaking pants news. I’m wearing the literal same pants I was when we last recorded. I’m almost wearing the same exact outfit I was when we recorded a month ago?

Corinne

Well, I feel like that’s a testament to how awesome those pants are.

Virginia

The Beyond Yoga joggers. I just live in them now. 

Corinne

Every day I’m like I need those pants. And then I’m like, am I going to spend $100 on joggers? 

Virginia

I know. But my cost per wear is incredibly low right now! I’ve worn no other pants in like three months.

I have decided jeans are really a formalwear option for me. That’s how I’m reclassifying them. Like, I’m going out to dinner with friends on Friday night—in theory, as we were just discussing off mic, COVID rates are rising. But if I’m still leaving my house by Friday, I’m going out to dinner and I was like, I’ll wear jeans to that. I’ll dress up for those ladies! 

Corinne

So fancy for you. 

Virginia

I can be fancy. But at the end of day, man, I am not getting out of these. 

Corinne

Well, I feel like I might be headed in the opposite direction. I just finished my 2024 Ins/Outs list. And I have decided that linen pants are out for 2024 and white denim is in.

Virginia

White denim! I can get on board with this. Well, I can definitely get on board with linen pants being out because they seem comfortable but they are deceptively high maintenance. 

Corinne

They just don’t last. 

Virginia

You have to decide if you’re ironing or not ironing. 

Corinne

Because they’re kind of nubbly they wear out in the thighs so quickly. And if you don’t iron or steam them, they just look kind of… 

Virginia

Like you rolled out of bed?

Corinne

Kind of schlubby sometimes. Which is fine. Anyways, white denim. I’m currently wearing white denim pants, which you can’t see. I’m excited to be having more white denim in 2024.

Virginia

You’re also wearing white denim in winter. That feels like a very bold move for me.

Dacy Gillespie

has worked with me on trying to unlearn my “no white after Labor Day” rule. I’m from Connecticut so this is a big emotional journey for me. And I’m not quite there. 

Corinne

If anything, I feel like white makes more sense in winter because you’re not sitting in the grass. 

Virginia

I hear you. I want to be there.

Corinne

Also, as a fat person, reclaiming white can be a fun activity.

Virginia

Absolutely. Do you have white jeans you’re excited about?

Corinne

I’m currently wearing this pair from Madewell. They’re not the best fitting jeans I’ve ever owned. I also just ordered a pair from Target. As a confirmation of this being a trend and not just me being like, “everyone should wear a solar shield,” I did see Helen Rosner post in her stories that maybe white jeans would be her thing this year. 

Virginia

Oh, and she’s a very good dresser. 

Corinne

So if you don’t trust me, maybe trust her. We’ll see.

Virginia

I mean, I always trust you. Although I did not buy a solar shield. 

Corinne

Yeah not sure what I was thinking there. 

Virginia

But on sartorial questions, I always trust you. 

Corinne

And if people have other white jean suggestions, I’m taking them.

Virginia

White jeans in the chat, please. I could do white jeans as one of my fancy options, as one of my formal wear options.

Corinne

I do think it feels slightly more elevated than regular jeans.

Virginia

What shoes are you wearing with white jeans in winter? 

Corinne

You’re not going to like it. I’ve just been wearing them with my Blundstones and they’re a straight leg so they just go over the top of the Blundstones and probably look really dorky. I’m just doing what I’m doing. 

Virginia

I’m here for it. I mean, I definitely feel like they’re good once we return to clog weather or any cute sneaker.

Corinne

Yes, white sneakers. I can usually wear sneakers in New Mexico in the winter. 

Virginia

On a related winter pants question, I think I need snow pants but I can’t decide if I really want to spend the money on snow pants. And also, can I find snow pants? 

Corinne

I have to admit the thought of looking for plus sized snow pants is very daunting to me. 

Virginia

I did some precursory research. I have a link in the outline to this brand called Halfdays. They go up to a 2x. If anyone has purchased Halfdays, I need intel.

Corinne

They’re so cute. Beautiful colors. 

Virginia

They come in amazing colors, but they are $345. It’s like, what is happening? I was talking to my kids’ dad about this question, because he’s a big outdoor gear guy. He was like, “Yeah, I mean, my best winter coat was at least that and that’s just what good outdoor gear costs.” Why is nobody talking about this? I didn’t know outdoor gear was so expensive because I don’t own a lot of specialized outdoor gear. 

Corinne

I know Patagonia is really expensive. I feel like Marielle has done some snow pants research because I think she goes skiing.

Virginia

I will say LL Bean has a pretty cute turquoise pair that I’m thinking about and they’re only like $170. My problem with this is right now I want snow pants because there’s snow on the ground and my kids spent hours playing in the snow this weekend. I stayed in the hot tub where it was warm because I don’t have snow pants. But I was like, would I be a better mother if I had snow pants and could play in the snow with them? Or at least like for shoveling and whatnot? But also, how many times a year am I going to need to wear snow pants? Even living in a very wintry place. I don’t ski. I’m never going to ski. That’s not happening. So I don’t know how crucial snow pants are to my life. So to spend over $100 on something that I’m gonna wear like five times? 

Corinne

Over 100? Over 300!

Virginia

I know. I know. But even at the Land’s End, LL Bean prices. I also know when you when you have the right gear, it makes the experience so much more pleasant.

Corinne

I’m just thinking, this would be such a nice situation to be like, “you should look for some used ones!”

Virginia

oh, good thought. I will look that’s a good idea. I need to be reminded constantly to look for used for things. I need to rewire my brain to remember to do that.

[UPDATE: Virginia found used Eddie Bauer snow pants on Sell Trade Plus! They have not arrived yet, but they were only $65, stand by for full review.]

Corinne

It’s also hard. It takes a lot of work. It’s hard enough to even find new plus size snowpants, so who knows? But yeah, maybe post on Instagram and see if anyone is getting rid of any!

Virginia

And I do want them in a cute color because I’m me. Preferably in a cute color. I would love a turquoise or maybe a hot pink, just manifesting that to the universe right now.

Corinne

Okay, well, we’ll check in about snow pants next month.

Virginia

When spring will be coming and I don’t need them anymore. It might be a passing whim.

Alright, we’re going to get into questions.

Corinne

I’m going to read the first question because I have no idea what it’s talking about. 

I would be very curious to hear your thoughts on the 1000 hours outside trend. It feels like the 75 hard for parenting. 

Virginia

You don’t know about 1000 hours outside? 

Corinne

Who? No. Wait, what? By when? 

Virginia

1000 hours per year.

Corinne

Per year!?! Oh my gosh!

Virginia

1000 hours outside is an Instagram account with 653,000 followers—except not Corinne. It is founded by a Michigan mom of five. She has also published a book about this. And it is a mission. It is a resolution. It is a lifestyle. The whole goal is that every year, we’re going to spend 1000 hours outside. They say it’s “a movement to reclaim childhood, reconnect families, and live a fuller life.”

Corinne

For anyone wondering, that’s 41 days!! 

Virginia

41 days that you will be outdoors with your kids.

Corinne

So if you just go camping for 41 days, you’ll be done.

Virginia

Like, that’s hard. 

Corinne

No big deal.

Virginia

There are these charts she puts up about how, this time of year when the weather is cold you only have to do like an hour a day. But then once the weather gets warmer, you’re going to need to be doing three hours a day to hit it. There’s all this math people do about it.

Corinne

Is this like 10,000 steps where it is just a random number or does that come from somewhere?

Virginia

One thousand hours is clearly a random number. I mean, I don’t know the backstory on how she got there. Who has who has ever spent 41 days outside? 

Corinne

Sorry, I’m just like really focused on the numbers. Three hours a day outside? 

Virginia

I just sent you a link to the post that breaks down how many hours per day over the course of the year you want to do.

Corinne

Who can spend five hours a day outside? 

Virginia

Well in May and June, people don’t have jobs so it’s fine. They can spend five hours a day outside.

Corinne

Oh, okay. Okay. Sure. Yeah. Okay. 

Virginia

You know how everybody quits work in June and July and just goes outside.

Corinne

But it’s for kids? Or it’s for adults??

Virginia

It’s for everybody, Corinne. But it’s definitely for families. It’s a family resolution you would make. 

There is, obviously, so much privilege involved. You need to have lots of access to outdoor space, and things to do out there, and the desire to be out there all the time in bugs and cold and rain and whatever.

So you need to afford the gear. You need the $300 snow pants, right? I was thinking about that this weekend, my kids had a blast playing in the snow. I spent a bunch of money this year because they had outgrown all their snow gear. I probably spent $500 at Land’s End on really good snow gear for them this year. And I did size up, so hopefully we’ll get many years out of it all. The older one will pass down hers to the younger one. But $500 on snow suits and snow pants and mittens is not within reach of every family, at all.

Corinne

Right and your kids definitely aren’t spending an hour outside in the snow in January if they don’t have snow gear.

Virginia

No, absolutely not. Snow play is a nightmare if you don’t have the right gear. Your kid is crying and cold and it takes you 20 minutes to get them into whatever you have. Then you get out there and they’re crying and cold so fast. It’s terrible.

Corinne

It’s also kind of assuming that you will be monitoring this, like your kid doesn’t go to daycare or have a babysitter.

Virginia

I guess you can count it if they go outside at recess at school? Which not all schools are able to support at all times of the year. We can unpack why that’s not ideal for education, but the resources of many schools are such that they do indoor recess when the weather is bad. 

So yes, there is a lot of implied classism and elitism. And I’m sure I would not have to dig too deep to intersect with the anti-fatness, like I’m sure there is some underlying “this prevents the scourge of childhood obesity” rhetoric.

And yet, I will be honest, almost every January I look at this woman’s account and think, should we do it? This is one of those resolution culture things that does sit in my brain because because in the winter your kids tend to have more screen time. You’re not getting outside very much and you start to feel guilty about it. And it’s because of accounts like this. This is why! But it goes into my brain and I think maybe we should do 1000 hours outside. I don’t know, it’s pretty doable. In the summer, we do go outside a lot. 

And then I remember that tracking things makes me unhappy in a lot of ways! I can imagine no faster way to suck the fun out of going outdoors than if I had some chart up where I was like, okay, guys, next time you go outside, fill in this box. We haven’t been outside enough, you have got to get out there. I don’t know if 75 Hard is the right parallel, but it definitely feels the same as step counting where it seems like this kinder, gentler way into movement, but can also become really restrictive and controlling, and setting yourself up for feeling like a failure. 

Corinne

Well, it feels like you’re setting like a goal that will drastically improve everything. But then you kind of just take the joy out of stuff that should be joyful.

Virginia

People, I’m sure, are going to say they’ve tried it and have had all different experiences. 

I am someone who sort of forgets to go outside when the weather is bad. And when I do go outside, I’m then like, right. I’m a nicer person when I go outside. You know what I mean? It’s one of those annoying things like actually getting up and going outside for 10 minutes can totally reset a bad mood. If my kids are being cranky, going outside is often a fix for it. Like, going outside is great and wonderful. Just let it be great and wonderful. Just do it to whatever extent makes sense and brings you joy and don’t attach metrics and judgment to it. 

Corinne

Right and if it feels helpful for you to someway track it, there are ways you could track it where it would be less daunting! What about just go outside every day? 1000 hours just feels like a lot.

Virginia

Yeah, this time of year I do often put “outside” on my daily to-do list, just so it will be in my brain somewhere. Because I know I can literally, as a work from home person, I can go a week without leaving my house if I’m not careful, other than like running a quick errand. So I’ll put outside on my to-do list and I won’t get there every day, but it will just sort of jog me to be like, oh, you know what? I’m going to go check the mail anyway, why don’t I take a 10 minute walk? I get wanting to prioritize this and prioritize this with your family but I also know that the idea of tracking it and having such a big number I need to hit feels really daunting and problematic. 

Corinne

I mean, poor parents! They already have so much shit to do and now they have to keep track of 1000 hours outside.

Virginia

For 41 days they have to live in the wilderness.

Corinne

I feel like when you put it that way, it really does start to seem crazy, right?! Or is it just me?

Virginia

This is really a lot of hours. 

Corinne

Okay, I’m going to read the next question as well. 

This person says,

I am all in on the philosophy you write about here, and it has helped me a lot. I’m currently trying to establish these principles as I raise my two-year-old and figuring out how that looks. I have adopted many of your suggestions, including serving dessert with dinner, which so far has worked well for us. I have a specific question related to sugar and immune systems. We have been getting absolutely destroyed by illness brought home from daycare. So much so that I sought out additional help from a naturopath. I haven’t really ventured into non-conventional medicine territory before but I figured why not try? I was told at the appointment that white sugar can depress the immune system and that I should try to avoid it. Thoughts on this?

Virginia

I have thoughts. I have thoughts.

Corinne

This is such a pervasive idea.

Virginia

And there is nothing to it. It is not true that eating sugar weakens your immune system. All of the research on this is either experiments they’re doing in petri dishes (where they’re injecting cell samples with stuff and studying how the cells respond) or it’s research on mice. And you can do a lot of things to mice. But that doesn’t mean it is true for humans as well. This is infancy stage research. And yet, if you google this, you will immediately see mainstream news outlets claiming it’s bad for your immune system to eat sugar. But it is based on very minimal data. 

The best article I found is this link to Business Insider. We’re going to ignore the very fatphobic framing of this article because most of it is helpful:

The idea that sugar weakens the immune system likely arose in the early '70s, when a study was published reporting that phagocytes, a type of white blood cell that kills bacteria and pathogens, were less active in people who had recently consumed straight sugar or sugary foods, including honey and orange juice. The measurements were taken within 5 hours of sugar consumption. 

However, over the last 4.5 decades, this study's results have yet to be replicated and there are no other studies proving that sugar directly impacts the immune system. In fact, the average healthy adult, will clear simple sugars from their system within two hours, says Peter Mancuso, an associate professor of nutritional sciences at the University of Michigan. 

"It's only people with diabetes where [blood sugar levels] could be high enough to impair immune function. Even a liter of Coke a day would be unlikely to impair immune function," Mancuso says.

So, we had one study in the early 1970s done on humans that got everyone panicked, and then they were never able to replicate the results. And then we have a handful of studies on cells in petri dishes and mice. And that’s what the naturopath community is pulling from. I read many articles about this and whenever I clicked through to see what their citations were, they were rats and petri dishes. Or studies on people with severe diabetes, talking about hyperglycemia. Hyperglycemia is not eating a lot of sugar. It has nothing to do with eating a lot of sugar. It’s completely unrelated.

I don’t want to downplay the immune system concerns for folks with severe diabetes. Of course, that’s a very serious issue. But this is a question from a mom of a toddler in preschool.

So no, you don’t need to cut out sugar. 

Corinne

And what does Laura have to say? 

Virginia

I emailed

Laura Thomas, PhD, RNutr

who is a great dietitian who specializes in family feeding. I wanted to make sure I was not missing something in the research. She wrote back, “Okay, well, how would this even work because our brains run on glucose? You need to eat sugar.” Excellent point, Laura. 

And then she says:

There is no evidence that cutting sugar out of your diet would make the immune system less susceptible to kid’s bugs. The only evidence-based approach to boost the immune system is to get vaccinated, so your body can produce antibodies for a specific antigen 

Remember, too, that the cells that make up our immune system, like most of the cells in the body, run on glucose, a type of sugar. We don’t need to be scared of it. It literally keeps us going. 

And then she goes on to talk about how, if you are someone with a history of disordered eating, cutting out a food group in order to achieve a specific health goal can be really dicey. She says:

If this were my client, I would want to make sure 1. that they are eating enough, 2. they aren’t feeling anxious or worried about what they eat. And then if they feel like practicing some gentle nutrition, adding a multivitamin to help meet needs. Adding things in rather than taking things out would be the way to go. And consider: How is your sleep? Are you over-exercising? Which can definitely suppress immune systems. Are you overstressed and anxious? That can also be a factor. 

But this thing really is everywhere. I’ve seen this all over Instagram lately, too.

Corinne

And there’s that old thing that’s like, starve a fever but feed a cold? Or is it the other way around? I can never remember. I do feel like there’s always all this advice that you shouldn’t eat sugar all the time, but especially when you’re getting sick. Also, like we’re talking about last month, when I’m sick sometimes I crave sugar more, I think just because it’s easy to eat.

Virginia

And this parent is feeding a two-year-old! Life is hard enough. We don’t need to be adding in this anxiety that letting them have white sugar is depressing their immune system. There is no scientific support for this. 

Corinne

And isn’t starting daycare also a classic time that you get tons of sickness?

Virginia

What your child is experiencing is what every child in daycare experiences. I mean, my younger kid is six and this is the first winter I feel like we haven’t been just relentlessly pummeled by sickness. And both my kids have already still at least missed one day of school. Kid sickness is a fact of life. It is a very irritating fact of life. 

Corinne

Especially if it’s a young kid that’s just starting to be around tons of other kids for the first time. Also, toddlers are notoriously not that great at washing hands. 

Virginia

If you’re going to have your two-year-old work on something, rather than cutting out sugar, work on hand washing.

Corinne

Pretty sure I once went to a two-year-old’s birthday party where everyone then got norovirus. 

Virginia

That sounds right.

Corinne

It wasn’t the sugar. 

Virginia

It was not the cupcakes.

All right, I will read the next question.

I would love to have a discussion of how everyone keeps it together when they go out on a limb to do the right thing in terms of fat activism and get shot down. I found I do okay asking someone once to meet a need. But if their response is to defend the inaccessibility, or if they placate me in conversation, but don’t make real change, I get angry or depressed. In particularly egregious cases, I’ll stop going to the business. But that’s not always possible. How do you keep your spirits intact?

Corinne

I feel like there’s actually a difference between fat activism and what this person is feeling discouraged by, which is asking for their accessibility needs to be met. 

When I think of fat activism, I’m thinking of stuff that you’re doing in solidarity with other people, not necessarily just for your own needs to be met. And I think that can be really rewarding and fulfilling and feel good. But I think relentlessly having to ask to be able to access stuff that you should be able to access is really exhausting and depressing. That would make anyone angry. So I just want to validate that that’s really real. And I think yes, stopping going to that business, if it is possible is a reasonable response.

Virginia

I wasn’t sure from the way the question got worded if they were asking about their own accessibility needs or trying to advocate, maybe as a straight-sized person at a restaurant being like, “Wow, you have only shitty small chairs,” or whatever.

Corinne

That’s a good point. 

Virginia

But I think your point is better and really important to say, because I think a lot of folks listening to this are in that position, all the time, of having to advocate for themselves. And I guess I would say, if that’s you, let’s think about how to ask friends and allies to do some of that work for you. It shouldn’t be your job to ask all the time if we’re working on building fat community and fat allied community like this. How can those of us with more privilege make that road smoother for folks who are facing those barriers?

Corinne

I do think it is frustrating to ask for things to change and for them to not change. I also think it’s like pretty normal, unfortunately. Is this too depressing? How do you keep your spirits intact?

Virginia

I’m thinking about the tip you gave on the last Extra Butter episode. You talked about how it’s helpful when you have a bad experience at the gym or whatever, to go on Instagram and vent about it. This can be helpful because then you’ll get some validation and affirmation from your community. 

Virginia

So even if you don’t have a friend who can go with you in the moment and do this advocating, figuring out who to come back to, when you need some support. Come tell us about it in the Burnt Toast comments! We will be mad on your behalf and at least then you’re reminded as lonely as it felt to be the person asking and getting shut down, you are not the only person doing that asking or who cares about this.

Oh and that recent thread where everyone shared their ideas for how they’re going to stand up for people fatter than them—that filled me with so much hope. Because there were so many great ideas and people taking small steps, taking big steps, whatever. But just like, oh, right, there are so many of us trying. That is helpful.

Corinne

Maybe the answer is more about how you build your own tolerance and resiliency around this stuff. Because it’s not necessarily realistic to expect drastic, immediate change. 

I would wonder about can you start a space or an event or something that feels more accessible and lead by example in that way? That might feel more rewarding than getting shut down by other people.

Virginia

I also think that sometimes the reason people defend inaccessibility or placate but don’t make change is—and this isn’t to defend those shitty actions, which are shitty. But I think a reason that happens is because people cannot envision what the alternative would look like. They don’t understand what you’re asking them to do.

So it can help, again, coming back to your community. If you’ve been talking to your doctor’s office about seating and blood pressure cuffs and they’re like, “how would we ever manage to do that?” Finding an example of a place that’s doing it and offering that up as a resource. Sometimes it takes them being able to see this isn’t this crazy, outlandish idea. This is something that other places are doing as a matter of course. We could do this, we could find out where they ordered their gowns from and switch our suppliers, you know? That’s asking you to do a lot of legwork. But, if you’re thinking about, how do I follow up if I got shut down?

In schools, too. I get asked to speak at schools and I also hear a lot from readers who are frustrated about the state of their schools. I’m finding there’s just such a range of awareness about this issue. Some schools are at why would we ever change the health curriculum or the cafeteria messaging to be size inclusive and other schools are like, of course, this is a huge priority, where do we start. And so being able to pull examples from other places.

Corinne

I do also think it’s a very natural response to being like told that you’re doing something wrong, essentially, is to be defensive or shut it down. Unfortunately. 

Virginia

That’s kind of a human response. A flawed human response, but it’s a human response.

Corinne

Maybe just learning to expect that or how to respond to that in a way that feels less  stressful to you.

Virginia

Well, it’s at least maybe helpful to realize that it’s not personal to you. It may be that this person is overworked and stretched thin in their job in a lot of different ways. And it’s not that they want to be an awful human being, but you’re suggesting something that sounds complicated and they don’t know where to start with it. I sound like, I’m being an apologist for people failing to do this work.  

If we’re going to work towards change on these things, we have to understand that this issue intersects with so many other issues and it is useful to think through from the person who you’re asking to make the change, think things through from their perspective. Why does it feel hard or limiting? What other hurdles are they facing? Just because they’re never going to make the change if they can’t see their way through that stuff. 

But also, it’s okay to be really curious when this happens because, and to your earlier point, you shouldn’t have to be consistently asking the world to make space for you. That’s ridiculous. 

Virginia

Alright. Next question.

Do you ask people if calling them fat is okay? I did it once and they were okay with that, but I’m not sure about others. 

Corinne

Hmm. Yeah, this is a tough one. Fat is both a neutral descriptor word and also can still be used as like an insult. I don’t think I’ve ever asked anyone directly, is it okay if I call you fat? I think I usually follow people’s lead on that and also try to lead by example by using that word with myself. I think what I would say instead of fat is like, in a larger body, which we’ve talked about before. It’s like a little euphemistic, but also just like less—

Virginia

A little more neutral?

Corinne

Yeah, it feels less like a hot topic or something.

Virginia

My first response in reading this was: Why do you need to describe people’s bodies for them?

Corinne

That’s a good question.

Virginia

I have to ask this question as a journalist frequently because I have to describe somebody’s body when writing about them and their experience as a fat person, or a person in a larger body. So I always start by saying: Tell me what words you like and don’t like to describe your body. And then I use only those words.

But in my personal life, I don’t find myself having to describe my friends’ bodies, my kids’ bodies, my family members’ bodies. Like, I don’t meet strangers and immediately think how can I describe your body?

Corinne

Great points. Tthe way you’re asking that in a journalistic context is a good way to ask it, though. Rather than saying, “Is it okay if I call you fat?” which could be upsetting to someone who doesn’t think of themselves that way, saying, “What language do you like to use?”

Virginia

Because what context do you need to label my body for me? I don’t know. Something about that seems off. Obviously, if you’re a journalist, and I think medical professionals would do great to ask this question at the start of appointments. 

I want doctors to not just assume that your patient wants to hear the o words, they probably don’t. So there are definitely professional scenarios where I get it.

With friends, I think I would do exactly what you’re saying. Follow their lead, identify myself how I want to be identified and not assume that I need to use words about their body for them. 

Corinne

Next question.

I have a baby due in two weeks and I need book recs! Any good pre-orders coming soon? New books? Fiction, too.

Virginia

First of all, bless this person that they think they’re going to get a lot of reading done with a baby due in two weeks. 

Corinne

I couldn’t tell if they’re asking for books about like raising a baby or if they wanted books to read.

Virginia

Well they said fiction, too.

Your mileage may vary.

Amy Palanjian

is my best friend but I did almost break up with her when she told me how much she read during one of her maternity leaves. Because baby Tula was a very easy baby who slept a ton, and I think Amy just like lay in bed with her reading all the time? And Amy, I’m still mad and jealous about that. 

Anyway! I didn’t read for the first year of either of my children’s lives, like other than necessity for work. That part of my brain just didn’t work. I was like I need easy, soft, comforting television. I’m rewatching Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I’m rewatching The West Wing. I’m not watching anything that was made after 2002. I have reverted completely to comfort zone.

Corinne

What about an audiobook?

Virginia

Audiobooks seem great, sure. I don’t know, my brain didn’t work to retain information for at least a few months. But nevertheless, I’m happy to give some book recs.

For pre-orders, this is a really funny one to lead with. This person didn’t share context about their life, but I’m assuming baby due in two weeks means maybe this is a partnered person. And I’m still going to say go ahead and preorder lyz Lenz’s This American Ex-Wife: How I Ended My Marriage and Started My Life. It comes out this month. It’s fantastic! If you want some extremely readable, funny, smart, well researched nonfiction exploding the institution of heterosexual marriage and how it has undermined women for generations, that seemed like a good thing to read on maternity leave.

Corinne

Yeah, why not?

Virginia

What do you have Corinne?

Corinne

I wish I had some good fiction recs. The thing that came to mind was Harry Potter or something. 

Virginia

Oh, that’s fun. 

Corinne

Something where there is a lot of volume and it’s easy to listen to. But I hesitate to recommend JK Rowling.

Virginia

Yeah, obviously. But it is a great fantasy series. 

Corinne

What’s the one everyone is reading right now? 

Virginia

A Court of Thorns and Roses.

Corinne

Yeah, that one.

Virginia

People love that one. A good fantasy rabbit hole seems like a great place to go down. That’s not super challenging. 

Emily Henry has a new book coming out called Funny Story. If we want light, non-challenging romance fiction. It’s not very sexy romance, just so you understand. It’s more rom-com. But that feels like a nice easy one. 

I have recommended before The Secret Scientists of London trilogy, which is a good feminist romance set in Regency England about a group of secret lady scientists and then their various love affairs and shenanigans. So that would also and there’s three of those. So that would be another good easy audiobook or easy read.

Corinne

Listeners, other recommendations?

Virginia

And I want to hear… well, I maybe I don’t want to hear if you read a lot during your maternity leave! I might just be jealous. It’s okay. I’m reading a lot now that my children are 6 and 10. I also just want to say if you have this baby number one, congratulations. I hope it goes wonderfully. Hope you get lots of sleep. Number two, if you find you’re unable to read any of these things, do not feel bad about it. It will come back. It might not be the season of life that’s a lot of reading for you. But maybe it will be and that’s great.

Corinne

That’s fair. I have not had a baby and I still really go through seasons with reading.  

Virginia

It can be a very ebb and flow kind of thing.But for sure, if you’re not sleeping, it can really be in an ebb. 

Corinne

Okay, Virginia, this is a question for you.

What is your TV choice for puzzling?

Virginia

This is a very good question, because you cannot puzzle and look at the screen at the same time. So nothing with subtitles, no shows with strong accents because I sometimes like to put subtitles on for a show with strong accents. That’s not going to work for me which is unfortunate. And also, some shows have more non dialog stretches than other shows. Like moody following a character walk and I’m like, I can can’t work with this.

Corinne

Exchanging glances. It needs to all be verbalized. Gilmore Girls.

Virginia

Yeah, I need the snappy dialogue. So yeah Gilmore Girls, obviously a good one. 

I have just finished Bridgerton and the spin off series Queen Charlotte, those were great puzzle shows. Did you watch either of those? 

Corinne

I haven’t watched Queen Charlotte, but I did watch and really enjoy Bridgerton.

Virginia

I think Queen Charlotte is even better. I don’t know if that’s an unpopular take. That’s my take.

Corinne

I had watched Bridgerton with my mom and she started Queen Charlotte and said she didn’t like it so I didn’t even try.

Virginia

Wow. Okay, well, I don’t want to go against Corinne’s mom.

Corinne

I know. She likes a lot of your book recommendations, too. So surprising. 

Virginia

I thought it wasfascinating. It is a real love story of single women. Especially older women like just like kicking ass. I mean, there is the love story of Queen Charlotte and King George and I had mixed feelings about that, to be honest with you. But Queen Charlotte is a really amazing character. I felt lukewarm about King George. He was pretty high maintenance. But I really loved it. Lady Danbury forever. 

Corinne

Okay, so Gilmore Girls and Bridgerton. Queen Charlotte.

Virginia

Those are my recent ones. I’m watching all of Modern Family with my 10-year-old right now. We’re getting through it. There are so many seasons. I don’t think I watched them all the first time around. Any light sitcom definitely works, too. I can puzzle away during that. 

Corinne

So when you’re watching TV with your 10-year-old, is that when you’re doing most of your TV puzzling?

Virginia

Yes, yes. 

Corinne

Is she also puzzling?

Virginia

No, she is curled up in a blanket eating a burrito. That’s her preferred evening TV mode. 

Corinne

That sounds lovely. 

Virginia

But we watch shows together every night and so I puzzle during that time, and then when she’s not with me is when I watch Bridgerton and Queen Charlotte because they are not 10-year-old appropriate. A little bit too sexy. She can handle some but I don’t need to have to unpack it all.

Corinne

Totally.

Virginia

All right. Next question.

Help. I need snack ideas. I get hungry between meals that I keep thinking I need healthy snacks. 

We have done Friday threads about snacks so we have talked about favorite snacks. But I really picked this question because I want to talk about this healthy snack concept. 

Corinne

Yeah! I mean, I would say if you’re feeling hungry between meals, and you need a snack, any snack is healthy! Eating a snack is healthy. 

Virginia

Eating is healthy. Eating when you’re hungry is healthy.

Corinne

Snacking is healthy. What are the healthy snacks you’re thinking you need? Like an apple?

Virginia

I feel like it’s probably an apple. Grape tomatoes. Some kind of fruit or celery sticks.

Corinne

I definitely am never eating grape tomatoes as a snack. But I do like an apple and cheese or cucumbers and cream cheese or something.

Virginia

I actually like grape tomatoes if I—this a little high maintenance—but if I cut them put on some good sea salt and olive oil and have a nice piece of sourdough with them. A whole little situation there. 

Corinne

That does sound good. 

Virginia

And some cheese, too.

Corinne

I would also say candy. I like candy as a snack. Chocolate.

Virginia

Someone suggested peanut butter cups in a live thread, and I was like, why am I not eating more peanut butter cups? That is such a good snack. 

Corinne

My snacks often involve cheese, like sometimes just straight up cheese. Or a quesadilla.

Virginia

I’m on a white cheddar and Triscuits kick right now. I had forgotten all about Triscuits for like, I don’t know, 20 years. They are salty and really good.

Corinne

They have those rosemary ones that are also really good.

Virginia

I feel like yogurt gets suggested as a snack a lot and yogurt is not enough for me. I will be hungry after I eat a yogurt. I don’t understand the yogurt thing. 

Corinne

I agree. I guess I’m maybe a little cold right now but yogurt seems so cold. I want a warm snack. What else? Chips?

Virginia

Chips are always good. I definitely think you want a little fat and protein, not to be nutrition-y about it. You want some carbs, you want some fat, you want some protein, you want some salt. You want that mix to be satisfying. I think that’s another thing where the healthy snack messaging can underserve you. I’m just thinking back to my women’s magazine days, and so many pages that were photos of healthy snack ideas and it was like two cubes of cheese and a small handful of pretzels. Very restrained, produce heavy, and just not enough fat or carbs. 

Corinne

More like half a bag of pretzels and half a block of cheese.

Virginia

You may be thinking a snack needs to be very small. Give yourself permission to actually decide how hungry you are for the snack. I think that’s important. The healthy snack mentality—I apologize, again, for my women’s magazine years. I think we did a number on us. 

Corinne

What was Obama’s thing? Like seven almonds?

Virginia

The saddest ever of snacks! I think he was trolling the reporter.

Corinne

Oh, really? That’s hilarious. That makes much more sense.

Virginia

I want that to be true. Although, when we combine that information with what we know about Michelle Obama and feelings about snacking, I don’t know if it was true.

[Update: It wasn’t true, but it was still…pretty diet-y.]

Corinne

I will also say I feel like nuts is a popular “healthy snack” and Nuts also aren’t usually enough for me. Not even like a hearty handful. I need it with something else.

Virginia

I need my nuts to be mixed with cereal and some chocolate chips. 

Corinne

Here’s another question for you because I have no idea.

Virginia

I feel like you do know the answer to this one, though.

Corinne

How elaborate does a five year old’s birthday party need to be? 

I will just say I’m struggling with the same question for myself. How elaborate does a 38-year-old’s birthday party needs to be?

Virginia

I’m going to say a 38-year-old’s birthday party needs to be much more elaborate.

Corinne

I am heading in a more elaborate direction. 

Virginia

A five-year-old’s birthday party does not need to be elaborate at all, full stop. Period, end of sentence. Every parent of every other five-year-old you invite to that party will be more grateful the less elaborate you make it. Because when one child has an elaborate birthday party, they ruin it for everybody. They are a drain on the system. 

Corinne

That is a great point. 

Virginia

I do not need that pressure. I do not need to hear about the birthday party with the magician and the 74 craft projects. I do not need to hear about how someone rented out some big elaborate place.

Corinne

Do you have ideas about what good non-elaborate birthday party ideas are?

Virginia

Well, I have hosted two five-year-old birthday parties. The thing that’s tricky about five is that in a lot of places, you are still going to have a mix of some parents are fine to drop off their kid and some parents are going to want to stay. Birthday parties get much easier once you fully move into drop-off years because then it’s like whatever happens stays at the party. There are no parents judging. The kids figure it out. You can kind of just let them be. My birthday parties have gotten less and less intense because I’m like, “Okay, have two friends for sleepover. Have two friends over to swim.” I don’t care. 

I mean, I do think one very simple activity is useful as a starting point. Because often five-year-olds coming in, they’re going to be a little nervous or a little weird. At Beatrix’s fifth birthday party, we had these balloons that you could put unicorn face stickers on, to make a unicorn balloon when you walk in. It was just putting stickers on the balloon. Very simple. 

Otherwise, you just want there to be a place for them to run around, and some pizza and cake. Don’t overthink it because they’ll figure it out. Kids are going to play, they don’t need more than that. 

Your party should be no more than two hours because you are going to be exhausted. And you do not need goodie bags. That is an unpopular opinion, but I stand by it. And you should not have your child open presents in front of everybody because that always makes somebody feel weird and sad and is boring.

Corinne

Oh, I love that advice. I feel like that was always such a stressful part.

Virginia

Oh, I hated that as a child! I hated opening my presents in front of other people. What if I didn’t like it? And I hated watching other kids open their presents. I will never forgot that someone’s 10th birthday party I went to where I didn’t know it was a birthday party because it was on Halloween, so I thought it was a Halloween party and I didn’t bring a present. And then everyone was like, “where’s your present?”

Corinne

Yeah, that’s so traumatic.

Virginia

Yeah, these things leave scars. Just don’t make a big deal about the presents.

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Virginia

My Butter was going to be Queen Charlotte, but we already talked about Queen Charlotte. So I’m going to give another Butter which is for this metal insulated thermos thing, which I got for making hot chocolate.

Corinne

What kind of hot chocolate are you making?

Virginia

I just use mixes, like the hot chocolate powder, that I mix with warm milk. I am partial to the Ghirardelli brand mix because obviously, with my brownie affiliation.

Corinne

Sponsor us, Ghirardelli.

Virginia

We don’t take sponsors, but we would take that one.

Corinne

Just kidding, we don’t take sponsors.

Virginia.

That is the one sponsor we would happily take.

Okay, so I bought this thermos pot thing before Christmas because we did a hot chocolate bar at Christmas, which was really fun. And it was so helpful because you can make a whole bunch and then it’ll just stay hot on the counter for a couple hours. It’s the type where you push the top down and it dispenses.

Corinne

Okay, yeah, I’m going to say this is not called a thermos. 

Virginia

Okay, what do you call it? 

Corinne

Aren’t they called push pots or something? 

Virginia

Okay, it’s a push pot. Is that a term?

Corinne

It’s like the thing that you dispense coffee from that has the push button on top. It says air pot.

Virginia

Okay. It’s a thing where you push the top, it’s an air pot.

Corinne

This does seem useful. And now that you have said this, now I want one.

Virginia

Well it is great for parties. I will tell you my other hack with it was it was when we had our first snowstorm and I knew the kids were going to want to go out and play in the snow right away. And I know because I have been doing this parenting thing for a while that when they come back in, they would want hot chocolate immediately and that there would be tears and recriminations. So I made the hot chocolate and put it in the air port before we went outside. And then when we came in, they just had to fill up their little mugs.

Corinne

That is genius. You deserve an award.

Virginia

Thank you. Thank you. 

Corinne

Well now I want to buy this to use for my 38th birthday party and fill it with hot alcohol?

Virginia

Yes, you should. You should.

Corinne

We’ll see. It looks great. 

Virginia

Okay, what do you have? 

Corinne

I want to recommend making your own personal In and Out list and I want to say that it’s not too late. There’s no reason you need to do it in January or February, you can do it whenever you want. I feel like it’s fun to reflect on stuff that you feel like you’re done with, and stuff that you want to focus more on. I’ve been having fun just doing it myself and I’ve also been having a lot of fun talking to friends about it, like what they are feeling for the yea and oftentimes discovering that our ins and outs are in direct contrast with each other.

Virginia

Oh, that’s amazing. Your other friends are like, we love linen pants. 

Corinne

One of my friends said, hard pants were out and I’m like, white denim is hard pants is in. But yeah, I think it’s just a fun opportunity to reflect and take it as seriously or as silly as you want.

Virginia

I want to hear more of your ins and outs.

Corinne

Okay, well, maybe I’ll put them in the in the transcript. If anyone else does this, send them to me or post them. 

Virginia

We can do this as a Friday threat. 

Corinne

Oh, I would love that. Because I also want to see yours, Virginia!

Virginia

Alright, I’ll work on it. I will say when we were talking about resolution culture, someone commented that they’d seen the in and out list being used for ill intent. Like you could obviously be like, “carbs are out.” Let’s not have any of that! 

Corinne

No. Carbs are always in. 

Virginia

That’s a foregone conclusion. Carbs are in. 

Corinne

At least the way I do it is, it’s very personal. Like, it’s just stuff that’s in or out for me.

Virginia

Okay, I’m down. I’m going to think about it. And we’ll do it in the Friday Thread this week.

Alright, guys. Thank you so much for listening to Burnt Toast!

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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!