Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!

It’s time for your January Extra Butter episode. This month, we’re doing a few listener questions on how to find fat-friendly fitness spaces, how to deal with those coded “you look so great!” compliments, and how to tune out the mainstream media’s often relentless fatphobia (especially in January).

To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier.

Extra Butter usually costs $120 per year, but is on sale this week for just $75!

We’re running this sale based on your feedback! Substack still isn’t set up for us to charge monthly for EB, so we’re dropping the price to make it more accessible for you. And if you’re already a regular paid Burnt Toast subscriber, you’ll only need to pay the difference to upgrade.1

Here’s what you get with Extra Butter:

• Monthly podcast episodes! These tend to be a little more personal or just conversations that aren’t quite ready for primetime. So far we’ve covered the anti-diet to alt-right pipeline, a truly bonkers TikTok diet and my post-divorce body.

• Monthly live threads! Next up, this Monday, January 8, at 12pm Eastern. You can ask anything you like, and we’ll also have a fun Friday Thread-style prompt! If you can’t make it (I get it, time zones!) but have a question to ask or an idea for a group prompt, you can drop it here and catch up on the thread later.

• A comp subscription to Cult of Perfect! My new podcast mini-series with Sara Petersen where we explore the intersection of motherhood, public performance, and bodies. Also trad wives.

And Extra Butter is the hands down best way to support this work. This subscription tier is why we’re able to pay Corinne and Tommy for their invaluable contributions, why we’re able to offer unlimited comp subscriptions, and why we’re able to pay podcast guests a small honorarium to thank them for their time and labor. And Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism.

Extra Butter Episode 3 Transcript

This episode includes affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!

Corinne

So if you’re listening to this, you’re already an Extra Butter, which means you are one of our favorite Burnt Toasties!

Virginia

Your support makes all our work possible and keeps Burnt Toast an ad- and sponsor-free space. So, Happy New Year, friends! It is 2024!

Corinne

Happy New Year!

Virginia

Except not when we’re recording this. But we are imagining that we have all survived.

Corinne

Are you doing any New Year’s resolutions?

Virginia

We had the funniest conversation last night at dinner with my six-year-old. This is one of those moments where you’re like, well damn, the kids are going to be alright. I said something to her about, like, “Are you thinking about making any new year’s resolutions?” And she goes, “I don’t believe in resolutions.” Only she called them regulations. She goes, “I don’t believe in regulations.”

Corinne

I mean.

Virginia

She said, “I’m just going to try to have a really good New Year.” I was like, done!

Corinne

Oh, that is so sweet. I love that. 

Virginia

So I think that’s going to be where I am, too? I don’t believe in regulations. I just want us to have a good new year. Seems right, after this past year.

Corinne

No regulations in 2024!

I was recently talking to my friend and recalling that last year the Instagram meme trend thing for the New Year was people doing their notes app lists of ins and outs. 

For example:

Virginia

Oh God.

Corinne

My friend and I actually did them, and shared them just with each other, and it was really fun to look back at them.

Virginia

What were your ins and outs?

Corinne

The only one I can remember off the top of my head was that I said “out” for me was really high-waisted, wide-legged, cropped jeans and “in” was baggy tapered jeans, which I don't really know if I've achieved.

Virginia

Well we are on a perpetual quest for the right baggy tapered jean, as frequently discussed by us.

Corinne

I bought a pair of Universal Standard barrel leg jeans that I feel that are fitting that bill. Another thing that was on mine as “out” was dressing for your season color or whatever.

Virginia

But I feel like that’s so much back in, in general?

Corinne

That’s the thing. It’s what is out for me. 

Virginia

Got it. That’s out for me, too. 

Corinne

So I have been thinking about whether I might do that again, just because it’s fun.

Virginia

That does sound really fun.

Corinne

Yeah, but it’s not really about resolutions.

Virginia

Right. No regulations. 

Well look, we know this is the time of year when diet culture gets loud. It gets extremely loud. So we’re going to do some questions that we picked because we’re hoping this will both help the people who asked the questions and help you stay the course. And just try to have a good New Year’s, despite what’s happening all around you.

So this first person writes:

I would love to hear your thoughts on how to find fat friendly fitness spaces. What works? How do you set boundaries? 

Over to you, Corinne, because I just don’t go to gyms anymore.

Corinne

I thought a lot about this one because there are a few different answers. One is I think you can find safe spaces online, like Lauren Leavell or like Jessamyn Stanley's Underbelly Yoga. 

Virginia

Jessie Diaz, yup. 

Corinne

And I feel like if you live in an enormous and progressive city, you might be able to find an all bodies gym. I feel like in the Bay Area, stuff like that exists. 

Otherwise, basically, give up. Sorry. 

Virginia

It’s not going to happen.

Corinne

It’s not going to happen. What you have to do instead is accept that you’re going to have to stand up for your values and stick with what you know to be true. And try to just do your best to block everything else out.

Virginia

Do you want to tell the story of what happened when you went to your new gym in Maine this month? Because I think this really drives your point home.

Corinne

Okay, I feel like everyone knows, but I have now been weightlifting/powerlifting for one year. I started last December. I work with a coach who I love. She is a straight size person, but does a lot of work to be informed about other bodies and trauma informed.

But this is the first time I’ve done any longer traveling while I’ve been weightlifting and I decided that while I was in Maine for the month, I’d join a gym here with barbell equipment so I could continue working working with my coach, Cassi.

So I went to this new gym last week. I’d never been to it before. And I did my first workout. I was feeling proud of myself because I was not looking forward to this experience. 

Virginia

Yeah, new gym. Enough said. 

Corinne

And it’s in a basement. So even when I signed up, I was just like, This is going to be a slog. But I went. I did my first workout. And I was feeling proud of myself for figuring out how to use this different equipment.

And then, as I was leaving, this guy came up to me. And he said, “For whatever it’s worth, I see you here all the time and I’m proud of you.”

And I was just like, “Oh, no. This is my first time here. You’ve never seen me here before.”

Virginia

All fat people do not look alike!

Corinne

Yeah. And he was like, “Oh, well, there’s some other lady who wears glasses and is always at the squat rack.”

Virginia

Right because it was the glasses, sir.

Corinne

It was definitely the glasses. And then I was like, “Hopefully I eventually run into this person and we can become friends.”

Virginia

I mean. I’m convinced this is a meet cute. This is going to be a whole thing.

Corinne

I mean, fingers crossed!! 

Virginia

I’m really invested in that stranger. 

Corinne

Yeah, same. And also just like, “I’m so proud of you?” Like, sir, you have no idea.

Virginia

My skin literally crawls thinking about it. Like, fuck you, sir. I’m so proud of you because you are an asshole and yet you still got out of bed this morning. 

Corinne

I did go back to the gym yesterday and I did see him again and he waved.

Virginia

I mean, now I’m like, how do you fuck with him? What do we do? I just want to throw him off his game a little bit. We’re going to walk up and be like, “Buddy, so proud of you today!”

Corinne

I know, I wish I could be like, “I see you all the time at XYZ thing” that would be embarrassing to him.

Virginia

Like a strip club or something.

Corinne

“I saw you on Grindr.” Something like that?

Virginia

These moments are so awful. And in the moment, you just kind of freeze up and it’s horrible. And you’re never going to say the perfect thing in the moment. 

Corinne

I mean, I think if it hadn’t been literally my first time there, I would have just been like, “Haha, thanks.” But I was like, “Oh, I’ve never been here before.”

Virginia

You could not be more wrong.

Corinne

And it’s ironic because I was proud of myself for showing up to this weird space I’ve never been to!

Virginia

That’s an intimidating experience. 

I do feel like that story doesn’t encourage this person to go to the gym. So, I apologize, but I think Corinne’s point is really good that you’re going to probably experience some of this, and maybe it helps to just know it going in.

I also think it’s valid to decide that that is not a space you want to put yourself in. Like I just won’t—both because I hate gyms for these reasons and because of my schedule. My windows of opportunity to work out are so limited. I can do a 45-minute workout at home, but if I was going to spend 15 minutes driving each way to the gym, I can only do 15 minutes while I’m there. So online workouts have just been such a lovely safe space for me. But I think going in, and knowing it’s going to happen, and that you don’t owe these people anything is also smart. You don’t owe anyone an explanation or an apology for your body. You’re just as entitled to be there as everyone else. I mean, what does Martinus Evans say? We’re all paying to be in the same parade. 

Corinne

Yeah, exactly. 

Virginia

You belong there.

Corinne

It’s very hard to find a fat friendly fitness space. But one thing you probably could find is a fat friend that you could go to the gym with and complain about the gym with. Or a coach.

Virginia

I was going to say, maybe even a straight-sized person who will be a good ally.

Corinne

I was actually noticing that at this gym—because the first time I went, I didn’t even see any other women. 

Virginia

That feels like a problem. 

Corinne

Not that women can’t be problematic! But then this most recent time, I did see some women, but they were all there in pairs. And I was like, oh, yeah, I would feel so much better if I had a friend here with me.

Virginia

Who is in Maine who wants to work out with Corinne? Hit us up in the comments.

Subscribe now

Corinne

By the time this airs, God willing, I will be back in New Mexico. 

Virginia

But for your next visit! Corinne needs a Maine weightlifting buddy. I’m sure we can make this happen. Are you the person that this man is proud of? This is our missed connections moment. I’m determined to make this happen.

Corinne

Okay. I’m going to read the next question. 

I’ve lost a significant amount of weight from being super sick over the past few years. Tumors will do that! Luckily, people no longer go “OMG, you’ve lost weight!” But they do keep saying “OMG, you look amazing,” and it’s clearly about the weight loss. How should I respond?

Virginia

This question makes me so angry. 

Corinne

This is why we don’t do this. 

Virginia

Yeah, this is why this is why we don’t talk about people’s bodies. You don’t know what you’re congratulating. You could be congratulating someone’s eating disorder. You could be congratulating their tumor. You could be congratulating a recent death of a loved one. Just keep your mouth shut about people’s bodies.

And, why are we only congratulating weight loss and not ever weight gain? Obviously, this just plays into the assumption that any weight loss is good, and any weight gain is bad. When I would fully expect someone who has gone through a really difficult medical ordeal to have some weight regain now, assuming that you’re doing well and are less super sick than you’ve been. We want you to weight restore, to be nourished and be able to eat and all those things. And so, for people to then not recognize that the weight gain that will hopefully happen is a sign of health and progress is equally enraging to me. 

Corinne

I feel like how you respond to a person saying this probably depends on your relationship to the person. Like, I think if you don’t know the person and you’re just like, get me the eff out of here, it’s okay to just be like, “Thanks.” And then vent to someone about it later. 

Virginia

You could add a, “Thanks, I really love this shirt!” Like assume they are congratulating you on your shoes or a new haircut or something. Assume it’s something else and kind of steer them away from weight.

Corinne

If this is someone you want to actually have a conversation with, I think you could say something like, “Thanks. Sometimes when people say that I wonder if they’re just commenting on my weight.”

Virginia

Oh that’s good.

Corinne

The other thing I would consider doing in this situation is posting about it on Instagram. Like, I posted about the this guy at the gym on Instagram and just got so many responses. I guess it is kind of passive aggressive. But you’re making a low key public service announcement, like how about don’t do this?

Virginia

You’re table setting for people who follow you and know you. They’ll see that post and they’ll be like, “Oh, right. That is really weird that someone is congratulating the weight you lost due to the tumor trying to kill you.”

Corinne

Or even if it’s just like, now other people have a mental note that this person doesn’t want me to comment on their appearance. Hopefully? Maybe? I don’t know. It might have no effect. But it might have an effect. 

Virginia

And you’ll probably get support from the people who get it, which feels affirming because these comments can be very triggering, right? Like a lot of eating disorders, when we look at like teenagers, for example, often the initial weight loss isn’t necessarily a dedicated effort to lose weight. A very, very common pathway is, they got sick, like they got mono and they lost weight, or a stomach bug and they lost weight and then that gets super reinforced by people praising them. And then that puts the kid on the slippery slope into disordered eating. So these comments are not good for your health. 

I think just being vocal, in some way, whether it’s on Instagram, or in person with friends so that the people closest to you know that you don’t want this praise and affirmation and don’t find it affirming. That’s helpful. And it will give you a place to process what it might be bringing up for you.

Corinne

I mean, I also think if you feel bold, you could, if someone’s like, “OMG, you look amazing,” you could say what you said in this email. “Tumors will do that.”

Virginia

That does kind of call them right out on what did I just congratulate?

A softer one might be like, “I’m so grateful to be healthy and to be doing better.” “I’m so grateful to be where I am right now,” or something. Just, again, steer them away from weight talk and more like yes, it is great that I am not no longer super sick and that is okay to be happy about. People, just don’t talk about people’s bodies. I mean, if you want to make a resolution for 2024, that is your resolution. Don’t talk about people’s bodies. Just don’t do it. 

Corinne

Yeah, that would be a good one.

Virginia

All right. Do you want to read our last question?

Corinne

A daily or weekly occurrence I run into is perusing content from news sources like the New York Times or NPR and bookmarking interesting stories to read or listen to, then hitting obesity and anti-fat coverage. Even though I don’t read or listen to it, just seeing the headline is triggering and for the next 30 minutes, I’m draining my brainpower on internal arguments with no one or everyone until I finally notice that all my energy to go about my task of the moment has been exhausted.

Any advice you can give as a journalist on how to cope with media and news sources we otherwise rely on?

Virginia

I mean, this is such an important one for right now. Because one of the things that irritates me the most about January is that every mainstream media outlet that that wouldn’t normally—I mean, they all do cover the ob*sity epidemic all the goddamn time. But these outlets wouldn’t normally think of themselves as purveyors of diet culture, right? They’re above that. They’re covering hard news. But somehow in January, they all become women’s magazines from 2003. The NYT Well section, the Washington Post, USA Today, they all just throw in all this diet content. They’re like, “It’s January, we can just hate fatness and talk about not eating carbs and it’s totally fine!”

And to be honest —and this doesn’t make me sound like the most responsible human. But I have been reading the news a lot less lately and disconnecting from news quite a bit. Some of that has been because we are in a horrific moment globally. I know there are all these arguments for why we have to see the footage of the children in Gaza. But I cannot be re-triggered in that way daily. I have been still donating money, calling my reps, trying to do what I can—but I can’t take the firehose of content about it, and function as a person, and not just cry all the time. 

I think in January, it is reasonable to say, I’m going to not follow the news very closely right now. Because it’s just going to be loud, and it’s just going to be fatphobic and obnoxious. Put some buffers up so you don’t have to take it in. You encountering all this triggering content doesn’t actually help anybody. It only makes you feel miserable.

Corinne

I wish I had more helpful advice with this one. I was really trying to think because I feel like the other thing is—you don’t only encounter the news when you seek it out. You will probably see it on social media. You will see it on the TV in the bar or the doctor’s office. So I don’t know, I guess my thought was more: Is there a way you can build up your tolerance or your resilience? Because you are going to encounter it whether you avoid it or not.

Virginia

I mean, as part of my avoiding the news, I spend less time on Instagram.

Corinne

Totally.

Virginia

It might be a good month to take a social media break if thats something that’s available to you.

Corinne

I was also thinking if there’s some way—this isn’t like a really fleshed out idea—but if you’re like, “Every time I see an article about the ob*sity epidemic or clean eating or whatever, I’m gonna do XYZ thing.” And maybe that’s giving yourself some kind of treat.

Virginia

It’s drinking game but maybe not with booze all month long? I like that!

Corinne

Or like, post a screenshot on Instagram?

Virginia

With a #fuckdietculture hashtag. That’s a great thought.

I mean, I think that’s a little bit why I’m able to do this work. There’s a part of my brain that has had to learn to almost gamify this. Because these stories are always coming in, and some of them hit me really hard, and some of them are so egregiously fatphobic it really takes my breath away for a moment and makes me super sad, of course. But a lot of the times I’m like, “oop, there they go again, New York Times Well section.” Taking a slightly more like playful attitude towards it of just like, “well, how many stories can they do about Ozempic in a week?” It can help gird you for it a little bit, I think. 

I like the idea of every time I see one I’m going to post a screenshot on my Insta Stories, with a hashtag of #fuckdietculture. Then you do that and then you move on. That could backfire because that could lead to a lot of people like being like, outraged with you and wanting to really talk about it constantly. Maybe that’s more than you need. Maybe it’s something more straightforward like every time I see that I’m getting a Hershey kiss or something. What is your private rebellion against this content?

Corinne

Or if you have a group chat, put it in your group chat or something.

Virginia

We could do a Friday thread about this so you can drop all the things that are making you angry there, maybe.

Corinne

That’s a good idea. 

Virginia

We’d have to figure out the right content warnings to put around that, because not everybody wants to be inundated with that, but but I think we can make a safe space maybe to sound off about that. 

And on the getting caught up in the internal arguments with no one thing: I do think that is not productive. It’s sapping your energy. It’s making it difficult for you to get through the day. I think it’s a reasonable place to be, and I think a lot of people when they are in this process of first, identifying diet culture, it’s really hard not to take every bait, if that makes sense. Everything is activating your old trauma around this and you have connected these dots. And you’re like, how are people not seeing this? But I don’t think that’s a good use of energy.

I have seen some friends get really burnt out by staying in a rage spiral about it all the time and always posting on social media in their outrage. I don’t think that actually helps them fully divest from diet culture, because it’s a way of staying connected. This is maybe overstating it but: It’s like still talking to your abusive ex boyfriend? You’re still letting them get to you. 

Corinne

You’re still in the tug of war.

Virginia

Yes, you’re still in the cycle of getting activated. Maybe you’re being activated because you’re feeling insecure. And you’re feeling like maybe this is something I need to believe. But if I can just come up with an argument, I don’t have to agree, you know? And you’re just in this constant cycle that’s not really great for you.

I think that’s where I was going with, can you just turn it off or turn off as many sources of it as possible? Because January is going to January. People are going to do this, the diet industry preps all year for the news stories we’re going to see in the next few weeks. You don’t have to live in that space.

You can know that there are trained professionals like us, standing by to give you the hot take you need when the Ozempic story comes down the pipeline. We got this, you can take a break.

Corinne

Yeah, good luck.

---

Extra Buttery Butter

Corinne

All right. My Butter is that while I was driving across the country from New Mexico to Maine, I listened to the audiobook of David Copperfield by Charles Dickens.

Part of the reason I was listening to it is I was driving with my mom and she had been talking about that new Barbara Kingsolver book Demon, Copperhead, which is a re-telling of David Copperfield. And I really want to read that book, but I haven’t yet. So we were like, well, we should listen to David Copperfield first. And it turns out that David Copperfield is 34 hours or something, which isthe exact length of the drive from New Mexico to Maine. 

Virginia

That’s amazing. 

Corinne

And it was also just so funny. It’s really funny. There’s a really good narrator. And some of the characters are just hilarious. We were laughing and just kind of adopting these little things that they say over and over again. So yeah, just recommending David Copperfield, I guess.

Virginia

I love that you did that with your mom. What a fun road trip bonding activity. And I love the idea of revisiting a big classic, although I admit to having a big Charles Dickens bias.

Corinne

Against?

Virginia

Yeah.

Corinne

Oh, interesting.

Virginia

I mean, we can unpack it another time. But suffice to say, when I was in college and an English major, I was really focused on 19th century literature, I could do with a little less Charles Dickens and a little more of the Jane Austen and the Brontes. I was all about the women writers who were not getting their due. The canon is very white male.

But that does make me want to do one of my favorite regular projects, which is rereading all of the Jane Austen novels, which I haven’t done in a few years. 

Corinne

That also sounds very fun. 

Virginia

I need a road trip because I bet there are good audio versions. Or maybe that’s just a good 2024—look at me making resolutions. 

Corinne

Oh yeah, here we go. 

Virginia

But I’m into revisiting a good classic. 

Corinne

I think I would have struggled to get through it if I was just listening to it in my everyday life, but having the long drive to do it. And just like so much funnier than I expected.

Virginia

My six year old is really in her audiobook era. She’s a good reader, as well, but she can obviously listen to books that she can’t read yet. And it’s been really fun because there are books that I’ll suggest a reading to her and somehow the attention span for that is different. She has a longer attention span for an audiobook and so she’s done some classics. I mean, kid classics, like Charlotte’s Web. She went all the way through all the Ramona books. It’s so fun to see her like really light up about these audiobooks. I’m looking forward to her being a few years older and us being able to do family audiobooks. We’re not quite quite there yet, because the 10-year-old doesn’t like the younger one’s reading tastes. 

Corinne

So funny. What’s your Butter?

Virginia

So speaking of audiobooks, I wrote an essay recently about how she was doing audiobooks at dinner, because single mom dinner has been a big evolution. At first, audiobooks and books were helping us all come back to the table together. Everyone reading was a nice buffer. I mean, we still read probably at least like one dinner a week, everyone’s in a book. She’s on audiobook, the older kid and I are reading our own books and that’s lovely. But it stopped being like—this is the only way to get them to the table.

And something else that has really worked is this game called Table Topics. They’re these little boxes of conversation starter cards. Just an endless supply of random questions that you can take turns asking each other. It’s hilarious to hear my kids answer questions like, you know, where do you want to be in 10 years? They’re very all over the map. I think this is what inspired the resolution discussion.

We take turns being the question reader versus answerers. What’s interesting about that is neither of my kids do well at dinner if I’m like “how was your day” or “what did you do at school today?” There are all these questions that really turn off my kids and I think, a lot of kids. But these are so random. So if you’ve got angsty tweens or teens, who are going to think it’s really dumb. They’re gonna be like, this is so cheesy. I can’t believe you’re making us play a question game. But there’s something about it.

Corinne

You have to participate once you hear it happening.

Virginia

Maybe they won’t answer every single one. But there will be one where they’re like, okay, actually, I do want to say something. And it’s really cool. 

Corinne

That’s awesome. 

Virginia

I’m just keeping them out on my dinner table now for whoever comes over. Like, let’s do some questions. I ended up explaining the AIDS epidemic the other night because of this. I wasn’t expecting that to take us there, but it did and you know what, you gotta get there some point.

Corinne

Fascinating. How did you discover these?

Virginia

You know, what? A home design influencer. Chris Loves Julia, Julia Marcum. I wrote about her in that essay.

Still following her content.

All right. I think we did our Extra Butter! Amazing. 

---

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.

Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti diet journalism. I’ll talk to you soon.

--- 

1 - In case you haven’t noticed, Substack makes this whole “premium tier” concept extra wonky—so email us with any questions or tech challenges!