We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your June Indulgence Gospel! We’ve got an old-fashioned listener Q roundup today, including:

• How should we think about breast reductions—are they medically necessary or diet culture or both?

• How are we solving chub rub this summer?

• Do they make fat-friendly toilet seats? (Corinne says yes!)

And so much more!

This is a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year.

If you’re already a paid subscriber, you can add on a subscription to Big Undies, Corinne’s new Substack about clothes,for 20% off.

This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!

Virginia

Well, Corinne, we have to talk about Big Undies because we are recording this on the day that you launched. How are you? 

Corinne

As I told you earlier, my brain is a little bit addled. I was haunted last night by typo nightmares, which I just feel is very unlike me. But that’s where I was at. I mean, typos happen. What are you going to do? 

Virginia

We have typos in Burnt Toast almost every week, even with both of us proofreading it. They are a part of life. But I know that first one is a ripping off the bandaid moment. It’s just like, oh man. It’s going out.

Corinne

I’m also really excited and grateful for the Burnt Toast community. And for you, Virginia, pushing me off the ledge. 

Virginia

So, usually when people work with me, I have them sign an NDA, meaning if I was reporting something super sensitive you wouldn’t put it on Twitter or whatever, back in the day. And when Corinne first came to work with me, she was like, “Will it be a conflict of interest because I think I might start with my own Substack at some point.” And I was like, “No, absolutely not. That sounds amazing. Let’s do it.” And that was three years ago. So then when we were at the hot springs, I was like, hey, what if we did it now?

Corinne

Yeah, here it is. It has definitely been a project that I have had in my mind for a long time even before I started working on Burnt Toast. I was like, I really want to start a podcast about clothes. So here, it’s finally happening. Not a podcast, but. 

Virignia

I mean, maybe a podcast! Maybe someday it will turn into a

Big Undies

podcast as well.

Do you want to talk a little bit about what kinds of stories you’re planning to do? It has been out for a month, so hopefully folks have gotten a good sense of things. But what are you most excited to be working on? 

Corinne

I’m really excited to do some interviews and questionnaires with people that aren’t necessarily fashion influencers. I’m excited to do some deeper dives into clothes. We’re doing fat swim week and I’m also really open to what other ideas people might have, so send me a message. 

Virginia

There are a lot of things that have come up that we’ve been like, “Oh, Corinne should write about this.” And now there’s a place where you can really explore all of it. 

So, if you are listening to this, you are already a paid subscriber to Burnt Toast. And that means you can subscribe to Big Undies for 20% off, which means you get both Burnt Toast by Virginia Sole-Smith and Big Undies for less than $12 a month for both newsletters

.Corinne

Awesome. Should we get into the questions? 

Virginia

We should because we have some very juicy ones. 

Corinne

Yeah, this first one is meaty. Okay:

Is it diet culture to want a breast reduction? Of course there are benefits to how I would look in my clothes but it would also mean less painful bra experiences, easier shopping, and relieving the strain on my back and shoulders. For reference, I’m a small fat and wouldn’t want to do any intentional weight loss since I know from experience that’s not sustainable.

Virginia

I want to say no, it’s not diet culture. This person is allowed to do whatever they want with their body. Your body belongs to you. And, I don’t think we can ever disentangle thin ideals from this particular form of body modification. 

Corinne

I feel like I always say this, but it’s complicated. I do kind of feel like the answer is yes and also no.

Virginia

I’m not trying to discount this person’s pain or experience of their body at all, but as someone who has the size breasts that many a plastic surgeon would feel qualify for breast reduction, and who deals with some back pain issues, I guess I’m not convinced my boobs are causing my back pain issues? I think I would do this surgery and put myself through all of this and I would still have back pain issues.

And I think there’s a lot you can do to address back pain with physical therapy, like getting your core stronger. I guess the reason I’m saying this, again, is not to say this person should or should not do the surgery. I think often we’re told, “be smaller and all of these physical problems will go away.” And that may sometimes help to some degree, but I think not if you’re not addressing the structural issues, your pain might not resolve. And a breast reduction wouldn’t do that. 

Corinne

I do think part of the reason this one is complicated is also because there can be so much gender stuff around boobs and how your clothes fit. I do think that is very real. And, I also think having bigger breasts does make you look bigger in a different way. I think if you’re “top heavy” in that way, you you look bigger sometimes. 

Virginia

You present as fatter. 

Corinne

And I think people also object to that.

Virginia

And that’s complicated, right? Because I would have no qualms supporting someone who said, “I’m getting breast reduction or breast removal to affirm my gender identity.” That makes total sense to me. And I do have a different response to someone saying, “I’m doing it for back pain” or “I’m doing it to look thinner.” I think I have different responses to each of those. 

Corinne

I thought it was interesting that this person mentioned easier shopping. I guess that’s where we get into the systemic stuff where it’s like… It makes me really sad that people are like, “I need to have surgery so that shopping is easier.” That’s a bummer. 

Virginia

Right this is a major operation, with a long recovery time, drains in your chest. It’s a whole thing so that you can fit into clothes at The Gap. Why doesn’t The Gap just make clothes that fit? That’s a lot to put yourself through for access. I also wonder—as a small fat, I guess there are times where my boobs are the reason something doesn’t fit. But like, the jeans are still not going to work. You know what I mean? Boobs are not the only reason I can’t find something that fits.

Neither of us wants to give this person direct advice. We do not know you. We don’t know what’s right for you. But I think if I had a friend who was like, “what do you think?” and wanted my input, I would be curious and encourage them to really drill down on what are you expecting to change? And how likely is the surgery going to change that variable for you? And weigh that up against the risks and the stress of going through the procedure.

I think, yes, diet culture is in there. How could it not be? That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. But being honest about that being what part of it could be clarifying.

Corinne

It is a serious surgery and it’s elective, so you’re probably paying for it. Although I guess maybe, if it’s related to back pain, it’s not? I don’t know. 

Virginia

Yeah, it probably varies.

Corinne

I think the fact that you’re still considering it even though it like could be very expensive and hard to recover from probably means there is something there.

Virginia

Yeah, totally. And we support you no matter what you choose. We are not in your body. It’s a lot of big questions to go through. 

The research on how people feel after getting bariatric surgery does show very clearly how much these body modification procedures are not a fix for everything. Often folks after weight loss surgery are struggling more with how they feel about their body, with their relationships, with depression. This is a different procedure, I’m not saying it all applies. But it might be interesting to do a search on PubMed, which is the National Institutes of Health database where you can get medical studies, for long term outcomes on breast reduction surgeries and see what kinds of things they even track people for and how long they track them.

I’m curious to know how people feel 5 and 10 years out. And they may not follow patients even that long. Think about what are your priorities with the surgery? And then say, are they even looking for how people do with this in a research setting? Are they following patients for this variable? 

Corinne

That is a really good idea. And that is super interesting because isn’t the research on gender affirming surgery is that almost no one regrets it? Seems like there is an interesting gap there. 

Virginia

The outcomes of bariatric surgery and gender affirming surgery are opposite extremes, I think. It goes to show how different these needs are. One is being pushed on you culturally, and one is something you’re doing to be more yourself. Now I want to write a whole piece comparing that research. Anyway! Super fascinating.

Let’s do some clothing questions. The next one is,

How do you avoid chub rub? Do I have to retire from wearing shorts? 

June feels like the time to do our annual discussion of chub rub. And as someone currently wearing shorts, I’m going to say no, you don’t have to retire from them.

Corinne

As someone also currently wearing shorts, I agree. For whatever reason, the way I live my life now, it’s not something I’m struggling with a lot. I guess maybe part of it is because I wear a lot of bike shorts and I feel like that kind of solves it.

Virginia

Bike shorts are a really good solve.

Corinne

There are a bunch of products now, too, like Megababe Thigh Rescue. Do you use that? 

Virginia

I use Old Spice antiperspirant, which is the same thing I use for my deodorant. I use it as my chub rub and it works great. So I have never upgraded to one of the fancier chub rub products. But if that hasn’t worked for you, there are many options. 

Under dresses in the summer I’m always wearing slip shorts. I really liked the Universal Standard ones because they’re very, very thin and silky, so they don’t make me hotter. I pretty much just wouldn’t wear a dress without them because that is is uncomfortable. 

It is true with linen or looser cotton shorts, you can get the same issue. What I find even more annoying about that type of short is there’s the chub rub, which I can correct for with my antiperspirant trick. But then the fabric of the shorts often bunches up and gets caught on your thighs. Do you know I’m talking about? I don’t have a good fix for that. Except to mostly just decide I don’t really care. And just pull my shorts out when they get caught on my thighs.

Corinne

I think there are some different schools of thought around that. I think sometimes it’s because they’re either too small or too big and it doesn’t happen as much with a different size. But I do think that it does happen.

I think it also has to do with body mechanics sometimes. I remember having horrible chub rub when I was younger and It just doesn’t happen to me as much now and I don’t know if it’s because I’m walking less, or it’s dry here, or I don’t know, 

Virginia

New Mexico is a dry heat. I think the fact you wear bike shorts so much is the main reason you’re not struggling, I think. This is reminding me that I’m debating whether I want to start my annual quest for jean shorts. I feel like every year I’m like, I’m not going to do it. And then I’m like, I do want jean shorts. And then I buy some and they’re sort of okay, but not great. And then here we are again. Jean shorts are one where they really can end up in your crotch. Maybe this is helping me hone in on the fact I don’t need to do that again.

Corinne

I just got some jean shorts I like.

Virginia

Of course you did. You can wear jeans, too.

Corinne

They’re just Old Navy jean shorts. I’m sure they will be sold out by the time this airs.

Virginia

Okay, wide width shoe recs! We got a couple of questions about this. One person specifically wanted wide width sandals and one person one wanted general recs and said why are the options so bad?

Corinne

I am someone with wide feet. And I personally have just found what works best for me is to go the men’s shoes route. But I know that’s not everyone’s style. I have wide feet and long feet, so it works for me. 

But I do know about a couple of brands that people like. The first one is there’s this brand called Adelante shoe company. I think you have ordered from them? They do custom sizing. There’s also a newer brand called Wydr Studios, and I feel like they actually have some pretty cute styles.

Virginia

Oh, yeah, these are cute. Some very good sandals. They kind of remind me of Saltwater Sandals. It’s a similar fisherman sandal vibe. 

Corinne

Yeah, they have a bunch of styles. They have some that kind of look more like Teva-ish. They have some heels. I think they have cute stuff. Yeah, so definitely check out Wydr.

And then this other brand I just learned about called San Antonio Shoes. 

Virginia

San Antonio Shoemakers.

Corinne

I learned about them from Val on Instagram. She had a pair of sandals from them that were really cute. The relaxed sandals, relaxed back sandals. They’re like a kind of strappy sandal. They look super comfortable but they’re also cute. And they come up to like double wide width.

Virginia

They have a Birkenstock vibe and they look really, really comfortable. I will say these are all pricey. I’m looking at the black sandal is $194. So, fat tax. 

But — lots of privilege behind the statement— I do tend to buy pricier shoes because I’m just like I can’t  with uncomfortable cheap shoes. My feet cannot handle it. I spent most of my 20s wearing really cheap heels that I bought on 8th Street in New York City for like $9 a pair, and did some long term damage. So to me these price points are not shocking. However, if you were hoping Target had the answer, these are major price points, but they seem like really high quality well-made shoes. 

Corinne

I will also add that I think Target actually has started selling wide width shoes! But I haven’t tried them. 

Virginia

I’m also seeing Zappos has an extra wide shoes section. I don’t know a lot about what the options are in there. But it’s nice to see that they at least are listing that as like an option.

Then the next fashion question is: Can we do a Burnt Toast guide to brands that have our sizes in stores? And my answer is yes, but it should be a

Big Undies

guide.

Corinne

I mean, I agree. I would love to look into it. But I’m also like, who? Who has my size in stores?

Virginia

It would be a very short guide. 

Corinne

Never heard of it.

Virginia

I mean, do you buy anything in stores ever? I really don’t.

Corinne

I’m trying to think. I feel like I’ve gone in an emergency situation to like, Torrid. I can’t remember what it was I needed. And I’m so glad that that option exists. But no, not really. 

Virginia

 What if the guide was little shopping diaries from people who are like, “I went to my local Torrid and this is how it was.” Or reviews from someone who lives in New York City who can shop at Wray or Brooklyn Plus Bus or something? All firsthand experiences. Because then if you are traveling somewhere, it would just help people know, oh, there is an option in the city. And here’s this person reporting what they got and what they liked about it. That might be kind of fun to crowdsource if Big Undies readers have specific favorite local plus-size stores. 

There is definitely nothing around me. There is a bra store in town that has a small fat size mannequin in the window along with regular straight size mannequin. I keep meaning to go in, but I have to admit, I feel so awkward if I go in and then they don’t have my size. I feel like I then have made their lives uncomfortable. I have a thing to unpack there where I’m going to feel bad for this little shop. I think I have some sympathy with small boutique owners. It’s difficult for them to stock a lot of stuff. But then I’m also just like, “I would go buy bras from you if you carried my size.” We may need to call first. 

Corinne

Yeah, I was going to say you could always call and ask.

Virginia

I know, but then I have to use the phone. I mean, it’s just stress upon stress! Alright, well, this is why we need the BigUndies Guide To In-Person Shopping.

Corinne

Yeah, that would be really fun. 

What’s an aspect of public or social life that’s inaccessible or hostile to fat people but not talked about enough?

Virginia

I just have to say I had a moment of drawing a blank because I’m like, “I think we talk about that?” And then I was like, well, we do. Like, me and Corinne, and Burnt Toast and Big Undies. We’re all here to talk about it. But what are people not talking about in the mainstream? 

I thought everybody knew this, but I was texting with a group of friends recently, all of whom are thinner than me and one of them was picking out new dining room chairs. And I was like, “Oh, FYI, those are very cute, but I might break it if I sit in it.” And none of them had any idea. They were like, “Wait, what? Dining chairs have weight limits? What?” They had no idea that dining room furniture is not size inclusive. So that’s my one recent experience where I was like, “Guys, you read Burnt Toast!” (It was my book club - love you all!) But now they know. And they’re all ready to look into that. But what do you think?

Corinne

Again I kind of feel like we talk about it. But public spaces in general—seating in theaters or seating in basically any kind of public space is often going to be chairs with arms that are not going to fit everyone. And that’s a huge problem.

Virginia

It’s a huge problem.

Corinne

I got called for jury duty last year and I was like, well, this is not something where there’s going to be a Yelp photo that I can look up beforehand. I don’t know what it’s going to be like.

Virginia

Could you get out of jury duty though? Because that might be a plus? 

Corinne

I mean, you definitely could, but would you have to be standing for 10 hours until then? It ended up being fine. But I was definitely worried about it. Like, seating in public places, public access places. And also in people’s homes. Like, I can’t tell you the anxiety that I have about like going to someone’s house and being like, I’m just gonna have to stand the whole time.

Virginia

Do you flag it for people?

Corinne

I mean, I do sometimes, but it’s also like, what are they going to do? You know? Like, you’re going to someone’s birthday party and you’re going to be like, can you buy a chair for me? Or am I going to drag my own chair?  

Virginia

It’s so frustrating. 

Corinne

For the jury duty one, I think they asked about accessibility stuff. So if there’s something like that, I’ll always say, “I’m fat, and I need seating without arms,” or whatever. So hopefully, they’ll start thinking about it.

Virginia

It is really interesting how often it’s not on people’s radar, though. I always include it when I do speaking gigs. When I’m talking to schools, I always tell Aubrey Gordon’s anecdote of being in high school and the chairs with the desks that attach and that she couldn’t close her desk for like, all of high school. It’s just so enraging to me that she had to experience that. I often see school administrators shifting nervously as they are realizing their classrooms probably have some of those desks in them. And they need to fix that.

Corinne

I mean, yeah, that’s just awful. Schools, that is so sad. 

Virginia

It’s a human rights issue. Kids need to be able to sit in the classroom and take notes. I’m curious what people will bring up in the comments because I’m sure there are other flavors of this or other issues we’re not thinking about and I’m always looking for more of these so we can talk about them and do more stories on them. 

All right, the next question,

What do you do about flimsy toilet seats? I just moved into a new house and I’m sliding around all over the place. I can buy a new one, but I don’t know what to look for.

Corinne. You have the best toilet seat.

Corinne

Yeah, so I I ended up with this toilet seat after I broke two rapidly in a row. There’s a toilet seat made by the brand Big John. They are bigger than your toilet, if that makes sense. Like the ceramic circle that is your toilet bowl, it like sits on that but it extends out. 

Virginia

And it’s strong enough? I’m picturing that that could be…

Corinne

No. It’s strong enough. Because I feel like the problem is like that they come unscrewed at the back or whatever. And I think it does have like a slightly different way of screwing into those holes. I do still have to tighten mine but it’s not as bad as a regular toilet seat. I will say when I first put it on, I was like, this is horrifying. I’m going to be so ashamed anytime anyone comes to my house. And I don’t know, I just forgot about it. And I have had a couple of people now be like, whoa, your toilet seat is amazing. Even not fat people just because toilet seats are so unnecessarily small.

Virginia

They are really small. Why not have a comfortable seat? Take up space in the bathroom!

Going back to the previous question: Nobody’s lives are made harder if chairs are more comfortable and fit bigger bodies. It’s like, nobody loses when we make space more inclusive. So this is a great example, thin people aren’t like, I can’t sit on a wide toilet seat. Nothing bad is going to happen? 

Corinne

And toilets or bathrooms are probably a good one for the last question, too. Like toilet stalls being too narrow.

Virginia

Wall mounted toilets. I know a lot of people have anxiety about that.

Corinne

Oooh I’ve never even thought about that. But now I will. 

Virginia

They’re very common in Europe. And then you’re like, am I going to take this thing off the wall? How would that work? Important accessibility issues. 

Corinne

All right.

Any advice for how not to be an oversharer and keep some things for the inner circle?

Virginia

So when I first read this question, I said to Corinne, is this a subtweet of me.

Corinne

I think I was assuming that they were admiring your ability to not be an over-sharer.

Virginia

I hope that’s the case. I will absolutely take it as a compliment. I mean, as someone who writes personal essays, who is a semi-public figure, who has an Instagram—there are all these ways in which you’re constantly being asked to share more and more and more of yourself. And I don’t know if the person who sent this question in is also doing that kind of work, or just in their own life feeling like they overshare.

I think in some ways, oversharing gets a bad rap. Being very open and vulnerable is how we form relationships and sticking to small talk types of topics doesn’t get us anywhere. So I think there’s a place for oversharing. I think it’s actually a beautiful thing that helps bring us all together. And I also know that icky, nauseous feeling you have when you’re like, well, I put more out there than I wanted to. And now what? What are your thoughts about this? 

Corinne

I think I tend to be a little more on the private side, maybe? The thing that I’m thinking about is just, like, if you’re worried that whatever you’re going to share is too much, you can always ask? Like, “I want to tell you this thing, do you have the capacity?” Or I don’t know if we’re talking about on social media, I guess that’s a little different. 

Virginia

The Internet would be like, “Yes, we do.” 

Corinne

“Do tell us why you got divorced.” 

Virginia

I think one thing I do, when I’m talking about my life publicly, in the way that my work requires, is I do have a list of no fly zone areas. These are the things that I’m like, “That’s not ever going in Burnt Toast. That’s not ever going to be an anecdote I share in the world.” So I think having a kind of running list in your head and checking in on it periodically can help.

One of my kids recently let me know that she does not want one particular topic discussed publicly anymore. And so it will not be. And that was really helpful for me to have that conversation with her so I could just take it off the table of things that I’m available to comment on. And sometimes it is challenging, because people might expect that you are available to talk about something but certainly when I say “I’m sorry, that’s a boundary I have to keep for my kids,” only assholes are going to try to argue with that. So I think just being clear with people about your boundaries if, again, you’re doing some kind of public facing thing where you need to say up top like I’m not going to do this. I never show the exterior of my house online. I never share my kids’ last name online. There are certain things I’m just never going to talk about.

Corinne

Personally I’ve struggled more with having the boundary. Like if someone asks you something you don’t want to answer, how do you respond to that? Because I have had some times where someone has asked me something I really didn’t want to answer. And I’ve said “I’m not going to answer that,” or “I’m happy to talk about that with you at a different time or in a different place.” And it hasn’t been well received. 

Virginia

I mean, I think that’s their problem, though.

Corinne

I totally agree. But I think that is also complicate.

Virginia

I think we have to look at our people pleasing tendencies. It’s okay to disappoint people. We don’t owe the world our bodies and our lives and our stories. And I keep coming back to that. 

Corinne

Well, I think I’m much more willing to share or overshare one-on-one than I am in a group setting or something like that.

Virginia

Go for breakfast burritos with Corinne. She’ll tell you everything. I’m just an oversharer in all contexts.

Corinne

Are you? I don’t know.

Virginia

I think you can’t do my job and be a super closed book? And like I said, I think there are a lot of strengths to being a person who shares. You can make friends quickly and that’s nice. But I have sometimes gone to a social event and the next morning wanted to send a group text being like, “did I overshare? Did I take our conversation in a weird direction?” But that’s the social anxiety piece, which is a whole other conversation. 

Corinne

Yeah, I was going to ask if there was anything you had shared that you had regretted? 

Virginia

Well, I’m not going to share it on the podcast! I can’t think of an example that I would be comfortable sharing the podcast. But I think we all have those moments. Well, maybe you don’t. A lot of us have those moments.

Corinne

I definitely have moments where I’m like, ugh, I wish I hadn’t shared that. 

All right.

Why are men so resistant to unlearning diet culture? Not all men, I know. Do women think about their bodies more than men and therefore have more to gain from getting their brain space back? For people with complicated food histories, do you ever get all your brain space back?

Virginia

Okay, I want to save the second part of that question for when we move on to the next question, because they kind of go together. So for now, we’ll talk about men being resistant to unlearning diet culture and do women have more to gain from getting their brain space back.

I don’t think it’s that women have more to gain from getting our brain space back. I think it’s that men have a lot to gain by upholding diet culture, because upholding diet culture upholds patriarchy and white supremacy.

Corinne

That seems right.

Virginia

I think there’s a lot of reasons for men to resist unlearning it because it is the first card in the house of cards to fall. And if you’re shoring up your white male privilege, shoring up your thin privilege along with that makes a lot of sense.

Corinne

I do think that the way that we get men on board is the fact that diet culture, patriarchy, and white supremacy also harm men. 

Virginia

I shared this reel on Instagram last week. The Washington Post had this video clip of the cadets at one of the military schools

Corinne

Oh, yeah, doing some weird man ritual. 

Virginia

It’s an end of year ritual for the cadets after they’ve gone through whatever grueling boot camp they’ve gone through. It’s all these shirtless men trying to climb a greased obelisk. So basically a bunch of men climbing over each other to climb what is a giant phallus. It’s just a penis. And it’s like, Men will do anything but feel their feelings.

It’s a whole separate thing. But it’s also this. The way all of this harms men is by making them think they have to go to war instead of just having a conversation about shit. They would benefit because they would be given the full range of human emotions. We don’t currently socialize boys to have vocabulary for their feelings. If they could do this unlearning. 

Corinne

We should also say men also have eating disorders. Men have their own special type of diet culture, like Andrew Huberman. And there are also fat men, fat men also exist.

Virginia

Totally. Men are navigating slightly different messages around bodies, but equally unattainable ideals. And they’re navigating it without any emotional script. Like, women can immediately bond over body anxieties. It’s an immediate conversation you can have in any public bathroom in the world with other women. Not that you would necessarily all be on the same page, but women can talk about our bodies. Especially those of us who are oversharers. And men just can’t walk into a public restroom and be like, “I hate my body,” to another man.

Corinne

Yeah. I think there’s just as much bullying and that kind of thing amongst men about bodies too. Like weird stuff on sports teams. But they never get to the point where then they’re like, “Oh, everyone has this problem and it’s harming all of us.”

Virginia

 Right. Right. And I think they’re less likely to get diagnosed for eating disorders. because we assume men are non emotional about that, which is bullshit. Men are absolutely emotional about bodies. But because we assume they’re not emotional about it, we give them this gravitas, and assume that anything Andrew Huberman is telling you to deal with carbohydrates is science and not just his own weird food hang up. We don’t give women the same space. But then in some ways it gives women more nuance and more tools if we want to avail ourselves of them. It’s hard for everybody. Bodies are very hard. It’s hard to have a body in this world. 

Corinne

That’s true. 

Virginia

Okay, but so the second part of this question for people with complicated food histories, do you ever get all your brainspace back? And then another person wrote,

I’d love to know from you guys and other Burnt Toasters

—I like toasters, by the way, We usually say toasties.

After divesting from diet culture and all the attendant obsessive repetitive thoughts, what did you fill your mind with? Find it filled with instead?

Corinne

My immediate reaction to this one was just like, there’s just so much other stuff to fill your head with—not that none of it is diet culture related. Have you tried TikTok?Your head will immediately be filled with six second song clips.

Virginia

I mean, obviously, my answer is gardening at this time of year.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s probably a lot more healthy.

Virginia

Whatever, it’s also an obsessive and expensive hobby. You said something interesting, though, before we started recording when we were talking about this question. You said, “this isn’t my struggle,” or something? 

Corinne

I’m not sure I ever had a point where I was like, “What do I put in my head now?” I think I’ve always been pretty good at finding ways to distract myself. I think, to me, the question that is a little bit maybe more interesting is like, “Do you ever get all your brain space back?” And I think the answer is kind of no. 

Virginia

Because you never know what’s going to trip you up. I just wrote that piece when I wasn’t working out as much and suddenly feeling sort of spirally about “I’m not working out enough,” and then realizing, it’s because I like gardening better. It’s fine. Divesting from diet culture means you get to pick. But the fact that I have to go through that process every time is that old stuff coming back. 

Corinne

And you can fill your brain with Tiktoks. And then you’ll come across a Tiktoks about dieting or you’ll realize that you only care about young thin Tiktokers. It’s just always there. 

Virginia

And I think we just have to have grace for that. 

Corinne

It’s never gonna stop coming up because this is the world we live in. But I’m also not weaponizing it against myself in the same way. I can watch a Tiktok about whatever. I can witness that. And I’m not going to turn it against myself.

Virginia

That seems big. 

Corinne

Yeah. Okay, I’m gonna ask you the next question. 

There’s so much crap out there about picky eating. What is your bottom line advice for parents who have kids who really only have a handful of safe foods and when even some of those foods don’t work sometimes, especially when those foods are something that’s demonized by diet culture, like crackers or bread? How do we support ourselves in feeding our children and getting them what their bodies need and tuning out all the other crap? Will the kids forever only eat bread?

Virginia

Okay, so I did not want to include this question because, as we talked about in the June Extra Butter episode that came out a few weeks ago, I’m really wrestling with how much time I should spend on these kinds of questions at this point in my work. I am not a feeding therapist. I’m not a dietitian. And I think there’s been a misconception that because I write about our cultural relationships with food and anti-fatness that that should somehow translate to me giving specific feeding advice. Probably because I’ve given specific feeding advice sometimes. 

So, with that caveat! I think if you have a kid who really only has a handful of safe foods, and I think the number is fewer than 20, you should definitely seek out a responsive feeding therapist. Follow the work of Laura Thomas who writes Can I Have Another Snack? And Helping Your Child with Extreme Picky Eating is a great resource by Katja Rowell and Jenny McGlothin.

If you’re not in the severe feeding issues category, I would also recommend adding on How to Raise an Intuitive Eater by Amee Severson and Sumner Brooks. All of those folks are much better equipped than me to give you specific advice about how do you plan meals, how do you handle it when kids don’t want to eat, all that kind of stuff. 

What I do want to talk about is the piece of this where your kid only has the short list of safe foods and a lot of those foods are things that are demonized by diet culture, like crackers or bread. The bottom line advice I have for that is that is fed is best. Your child needs to eat, and your child does not deserve to feel shame for the foods that they feel safe eating. 

So it is absolutely okay to set whatever boundaries you need to set around protecting that kid’s ability to eat their white bread and Cheez-its. That is how that kid is getting fed right now. Nobody else knows your life. They don’t know what you’re up against. And I’m sorry, but they can go fuck themselves for having an opinion about it. So that’s where I am, bottom line. 

I think you may need other parents who are on this journey with you who can help you remember that when it feels really hard. Whether that’s a partner you’re co-parenting with, or mom friends, or a Facebook support group. You need some folks who can remind you that your child deserves to feel safe with the foods they eat. They do not deserve to feel shamed for this. You need someone who can keep bringing you back to that place. 

And while we can support folks and work with kids are building skills and building their comfort level, and there’s a lot of value in that work—we also have to say, if this never changes, your kids still deserves to feel safe and feel no shame about how they eat. Because everybody deserves that. That’s the fundamental right. 

So yeah, I don’t know your kid. I don’t know if they’re going to forever eat bread. But if they do, that’s okay. That’s a valid way to live in this world. 

Corinne

Cool, that’s good advice. 

Virginia, where did you buy your Dahlia bulbs and how are your dahlias?

Virginia

This is what is filling my head now instead of diet culture. 

So, this weekend, I planted my first raised bed of dahlias. I’m so going hard on my dahlias this year but in a more organized way than I ever have before. And it’s a real journey partly because I then opened my box of dahlias and realized I only ordered half as many as I needed. And as you’ll recall last year I bought three times too many so I don’t understand. I can’t do dahlia math. It’s so hard for me. 

But the first bed that I planted this weekend, which is a four by eight bed, and it has 32 dahlias in it. There’s one per square foot, eight different varieties. Those are all from Swan Island Dahlias, which is a dahlia site that

Anne Helen Petersen

told me to get them from. Really, really good high quality stuff. And all Dahlia sources are not created equal,there is a lot of drama in the dahlia community. So you do want to go to reputable sources and Swan Island is a good one.

THE VISION

I will also recommend following Anne Helen’s Garden Study which is the garden section of the Culture Study newsletter. And then she and her best friend are starting basically a dahlia micro farm. They’re posting tons of great dahlia content.

Then for the other bed, which I have not planted yet because I didn’t buy enough dahlias, I’m getting them from my friend Marcella, who is a local dahlia farmer here who runs Parcel Flower Co. I was texting her on Saturday with a degree of urgency to be like, tell me you still have tubers. Can I buy some tubers? What color tubers do you have? Because I’m trying to stick to a whole color palette this year. It’s a whole thing. It’s a whole thing.

Currently.

Corinne

So when you bought too many dahlias last year… Wait I guess I just don’t really understand this. Can you recycle the tubers or no? 

Virginia

Okay, if you live in a very very, very warm zone like Mexico. You can overwinter your dahlias in the ground. Even in England, and where you live, probably people can overwinter dahlias. 

So last year, I pulled those tubers out because I know I can’t overwinter in a raised bed, and I stored them. But I did not store them well and they did not survive the winter.

Corinne

Damn. How do you tell that they didn’t survive? 

Virginia

Because they’re mushy. 

Corinne

Oh, they rot or something? 

Virginia

They can either totally shrivel up or they can go mushy. They’re basically potatoes, like a potato is also a tuber. So if you think about potatoes you’ve left in your pantry too long and the variety of ways that can go bad you can see what you’re dealing with.

Corinne

But if you dig them up, don’t they still freeze? Or you have to dig them up and keep them in your house? 

Virginia

So that’s why I did half of it. I dug them up. I let them dry. Usually I let them dry out for a bit. And then I packed them in boxes, in these milk crate type boxes, and I put them in layers of vermiculite or something like that. And then I meant to move the boxes to my garage, because my garage stays at about 50 degrees all winter, which is optimal dahlia winter temperature, but instead I left them in my potting shed, which is not insulated and so they just froze.

Corinne

Wow. So that is a lot of work.

Virginia

Look, if someone has been dieting on a high level and they need something to fill a lot of time, I really recommend dahlia farming or growing. I’m not farming. Because it’s a very intricate, nerdy hobby. Have I spent so much now because I keep losing my dahlias over the winter? Yes. I think I said last year that everyone had to hold me accountable to overwintering my dahlias and you didn’t do it. So I blame everybody else. And what I’m saying is this year, you’re going to hold me accountable. And I’m going to store them properly. And that’s gonna be that.

Corinne, are you gardening at all this year?

Corinne

I’m trying to have a demolition year. I’m actually doing this thing called Tree School where I’m working with this person who does garden landscaping stuff to come up with a plan and stuff. So recently I got all the weeds out of my front yard, my front yard is very small, and had mulch put down. 

My backyard is just a crazy mess. There is all this fencing that doesn’t need to be there. So right now, I’m trying to find someone to take out the fencing. Then I need to find someone to take out all the weeds. So I’m having a demolition year. And trying to take care of my existing trees. 

Virginia

What kind of trees do you have? 

Corinne

In the front yard, I have two ash trees, which are going to die because we have the ash borer. But hopefully, they’ll be around for a few more years. Then in the back I have an almond tree, which is not in great shape and has never produced almonds. But I’m trying to take better care of it. All of this stuff is pre-existing, I should say. It came with the house. I have a mimosa tree, which is really, really pretty. And there’s also pinon and some bird of paradise bushes.

Virginia

Well, I’m excited for your demolition year and your save the trees year. 

Corinne

Yeah, we’ll see how far I get.

Virginia

And then next year, you can join me in the dahlia obsession. Or you can just watch dahlia TikTok, which is pretty good I have to say. 

Corinne

All right. Do you have a Butter?

Virginia

I do. I’m going to do a garden Butter. I mean, it’s June. This is this is peak garden. My Butter is this garden apron I got from Target. Hilton Carter, who is a house plant influencer and seems like a delightful human being. He has a collection at Target of garden and houseplant gear. And this is a waxed canvas, dark green apron with leather straps, and it has pockets you can put your garden tools in. And it’s only $30 (on sale for $15!!) which, let me tell you, these garden aprons can be expensive. Like the reason I haven’t had one is I’m like, am I spending $90 on an apron? I don’t know. 

I’ve always been kind of meh about the idea of an apron because I garden without a bra in my pajamas first thing in the morning. I just go out. I don’t want gardening gloves. I’m like, am I going to put on an apron? But then I realized the beauty of the apron is number one, my phone fits in one pocket because I’m often having to keep track of time or listen to a podcast or something. And if I remember to put my tools back in the pockets at the end, I know where they are the next time I go gardening, which is a real leg up. When you’re like, “I have half an hour I can get some stuff done,” and then you spend 18 minutes looking for the tools. It’s very comfortable. I think pretty size inclusive? I was trying to gauge but I do have to pull the ties in pretty far to tie them, so I think it would fit a range. And yeah, it turns out it’s really handy to have a little garden tool apron. And then the other thing related is I just got a Hori Hori knife, which is a Japanese gardening tool, and it’s like a narrow trowel. But it’s very sharp. One side is a regular knife and one side is a serrated knife. And oh man, it is good times. You can dig and divide. I’m having a good time with that. 

Corinne

That’s really cool.

Virginia

What about you?

Corinne

Well one of my takeaways from the style challenge was that I wanted to do more accessories and so I just bought this ring. 

Corinne

It’s a glass ring and it has a little like opal chunk in it. I think it’s a man-made opal but I like it because it feels very pretty and fun, and also very affordable. It’s under $100. I think this was $60? The brand is called Struggle Glass. And she has a bunch of extended sizing stuff. I think she does drops, so if you visit the website stuff might be sold out but follow her on Instagram and she posts about when stuff is going up. So it’s a fun sparkly accessory that is not super expensive. 

It’s made out of the kind of glass that they use for bakingware, so it’s pretty sturdy, but we’ll see.

Virginia

That was my question. I assumed it was plastic because I would never trust myself to have a glass accessory and not have it end in tragedy. 

Corinne

Yeah, I have definitely been like, am I scratching this? I don’t know. We’ll see. But so far I’m enjoying it.

Virginia

This is very cool. Her work is gorgeous. Well, I want to hear how you do with a glass ring before I got one but I’m excited.

Corinne

Yeah, I’m excited, too.

---

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!