Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!

It’s time for your April Extra Butter! This month we’re answering a thorny mix of listener questions:

Do we ever get tempted to buy back into diet culture?

Is weight-loss surgery (and meds) not “doing it the old-fashioned way?”

And what should you say when your daughter’s pants don’t fit—and she hates all her other clothes?

Both of these letters bring up a lot of complicated issues. CW for discussions of intentional weight loss, anti-fat rhetoric and weight loss surgery.

To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier.

Extra Butter now costs just $99 per year.

In addition to these monthly episodes (where we get into juicy stuff like the anti-diet to alt-right pipeline, is Kids Eat In Color anti-diet? and my post-divorce body), you’ll also get a comp to Cult of Perfect and access to our monthly live thread discussions — our next one is next Wednesday at 12pm Eastern!

Plus Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!

(Questions? Glitches? Email me all the details)

Extra Butter Episode 6 Transcript

This episode may include affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!

Are Weight Loss Surgery Survivors Just “New Money Thin?”

I listen to your podcasts, read your essays as well as your book Fat Talk and I feel that I am completely done with diet culture and the way I get lured by the promise of thinness to give you a better life and all the layers and complexities that come along with dieting/body image. I love what Sonya Renee Taylor said about just stepping off of the ladder and removing yourself from this type of social hierarchy we place on each other, ourselves and our lives.

BUT THEN....

I see news reports of Oprah having lost weight and looking skinny and I find myself feeling a panic that 'I need to get back on that ladder (or treadmill).' 

Do you ever get tempted to buy into all of this again? And if so, what do you do?

Also, what is your opinion on weight loss surgery? Just today I met two people who have recently had it. I feel all kinds of things. On one hand, I feel sympathetic towards them. I don't want to judge anyone for how they deal with living in an anti-fat world. I know one of them has had health issues as well as body image issues for the majority of her life. I want to feel happy for her that she **will** (?) find some "peace" now. But then there's the bitchy side of me that thinks it is an easy way out 

The bitchiest thoughts are using the awful judgements like the concept of 'old money' and 'new money' and seeing her as only a newly thin person (it even hurts to write this out) OR .....if I want to lose weight, I will just do it the old fashioned way not through this magic surgery.  

The more loving/mature side of me thinks that the surgery is just another way to give into the type of thing- anti fatness, fat shaming, diet culture- we should all just change.

Thoughts?

Thank you,

Diane. 

Virginia

I should note I’ve changed names on both of our letter writers today. Corinne, take it away. 

Corinne

Wow. I mean, just the light, easy questions. I feel like it’s kind of a two parter. The first question is, do you ever get tempted to buy into this feeling of seeing someone who has recently lost weight and wanting to go there yourself? And the second question is about weight loss surgery and there’s some very interesting stuff in there.

Virginia

Let’s do it in two parts. 

Corinne

To answer the first question: Do I ever get tempted to buy into all of this again? Definitely, yes. I think this is a situation where it’s like, that is the culture that we live in. As long as we live in a culture that is anti-fat, we’re going to feel tempted to not have to deal with anti-fatness.

Virginia

100 percent. It can be a celebrity losing weight. It can be life feeling stressful and overwhelming and through decades of conditioning you’ve trained yourself to direct negative feelings on your body. When you’re feeling out of control, the temptation is always there to think, what if I could control my body? Then everything will be fine. It can be recognizing the ways the world is not built for your body and wanting that to all feel easier. I mean, there are so many reasons that we get pushed. 

Corinne

For me, Oprah is not a trigger. The things where I feel this are usually where I’m encountering anti-fat bias, like travel, airplanes, having to go to the doctor. That kind of stuff, where I’m just like, wow, I really wish I did not have to fucking deal with this. 

Virginia

I’m interested that Oprah triggers this for people just because she’s lost weight again, guys. Why why are we still believing in the Oprah myth? Like, Oprah always regains the weight. She is the classic example of diets don’t work. If you can be a billionaire who has your own island or whatever…

Corinne

Right. You could pay someone to be taking care of all your food for you.

Virginia

I mean, she’s had private chefs for decades. And still! Oprah, I just want you to be able to get off this merry go round. 

Corinne

But I could see this with some of the plus size influencers losing weight. I could imagine that would bring this up for people. 

Virginia

Or even people in your own social circle.

Corinne

Definitely. 

Virginia

This is someone who I consider a peer, and this seems easier and more within their grasp. There’s so much comparison stuff that happens. What do you do when you get the temptation?

Corinne

I think I just acknowledged that I’m feeling that way. I think for me also, it’s like, that is a miserable feeling. It’s miserable to be like, “I wish I could easily get on an airplane and not have like a panic attack.” But it’s also miserable to be dieting. I would be just as miserable trying to change myself to fit into the airplane seats. So you choose your misery, I guess. 

Virginia

I mean, I think dieting is a chronic 24/7 misery whereas the airplane thing comes up a few times a year, but it’s not your daily. Were you trying to pursue a career as a flight attendant, that would be more challenging.

Corinne

Absolutely not.

Virginia

I actually had a fat flight attendant recently, and I wanted to be like, I see you!

Corinne

That’s cool. I can’t even. Because also they wear uniforms. How do you deal with that?

Virginia

I mean she was a small fat, but still. In terms of what you often see of flight attendants. That is a profession with a lot of thin ideals. It was refreshing to see. 

I also lie down and wait for the feelings to go away and think about what I can do to make myself feel cared for. Like, do you need a season of stretchy pants? Time with a friend? You’ve talked before about feeling good about your body in a more sensory way instead of just aesthetic. For me, I always like looking underneath and being like, oh right, I’m just spiraling out and putting it on my body, but actually it’s about this other stuff. 

Corinne

How can you make your environment more comfortable for yourself?

Virginia

Yeah. Like, we can’t fix the airplane seats. We’re working on it but we haven’t gotten that done. But how can your own physical environment including clothes you put on your body feel more supportive and built for your body? That seems important. 

Corinne

All right. And what is your opinion on weight loss surgery?

Virginia

Oh, man. Okay. This is where Diane takes a little bit of a turn. We were with you, Diane. We understand the trigger of Oprah and we’re with you on that part of the journey.

But there is some real anti-fatness in the phrasing of the second half of the question. Which she’s owning, because she’s saying “this is a bitchy thought.” But we need to name pretty clearly what’s happening here. I think where I’m immediately stuck is framing weight loss surgery as an easy way out.

Corinne

That is a fascinating way of thinking about it! 

Virginia

I mean, it’s major surgery. They remove part of an organ.

Corinne

I have such a medical industrial complex phobia, that it’s blowing my mind that anyone would think of that as the easy way out.

Virginia

Not at all. I mean, the recovery is miserable. It’s weeks of living on broth and then you work your way up to jello. 

Corinne

There is also just such a high risk of complication.

Virginia

And you’re living the rest of your life managing nutrition in a really specific way because you’re at high risk for nutritional deficiencies because it’s hard for your body to take in enough food. This is a lifetime of management. This is not just, you get the surgery done, you lose weight and then you eat cheeseburgers whenever you want. The whole rest of your life is organized around this, in a way that’s pretty tough. 

There is a lot of research showing that folks who have weight loss surgery are at increased risk for depression and suicidal ideation afterwards. And an increased risk of substance abuse disorder, even if they never previously had a problem with alcohol or drugs. There’s just a lot of fallout with this experience. It’s not an easy way out of anything.

Corinne

And anyone who is having weight loss surgery has basically succumbed to the pressure and anti-fat bias that you’re feeling when you see Oprah. Let’s have some empathy. It’s definitely not easy.

Virginia

And they may be doing it because it’s the only way they can access other medical care they need. 

This is what I reported for the New York Times Magazine several years ago about infertility clinics having BMI cut-offs. Often someone’s only option, in order to access fertility treatment, is to first go through weight loss surgery, even though there is research showing that it can increase your risks for prenatal complications.

That’s just one example. There are doctors who won’t do your knee replacement unless you do this first. So WLS can be a necessary strategy for playing the game in order to get the healthcare you deserve. 

Corinne

Totally. 

Virginia

My overall opinion on weight loss surgery is, I think we are pushing it on people without giving them enough options for informed consent. We could do a lot more to remove systemic anti-fatness and the barriers they face without asking people to put their bodies through this. I have zero judgment for anyone who chooses to do it because I haven’t been in that place.

Corinne

There was also just that New York Times article about hospitals churning through weight loss surgeries.

Virginia

And pushing them on prisoners and low income folks. Not informing people of risks and not doing their due diligence. They performed it on a pregnant women by accident.

Corinne

So scary. I’m also interested in this “old money/new money” thing.

Virginia

Yes, I want to talk about this metaphor. This is a really interesting framing. Seeing her as only a newly thin person. Like, wow, fat people just can’t ever win.

Corinne

It’s really interesting. 

Virginia

This person did everything that this culture asked of them and they’re still getting written off. That’s the “easy way out” thing. It’s like, oh, you are still a lazy fat person even though now you’re thin. Because you didn’t do it the old fashioned way.

And it also implies that the only people who should benefit from thin privilege are old money—my Connecticut WASPs. If you don’t have a yacht club membership, you need not apply for the benefits of thin privilege.

But I think Diane is saying the quiet part out loud. She’s articulating something very real in how we bestow thin privilege and our attitudes towards fat folks who pursue weight loss. There’s throwing them a parade and all this positive affirmation if your body changes and there is this hidden judgment of somehow you were always wrong, and you can’t undo what was always wrong about you. It’s wild.

Corinne

And what this is kind of not saying is: If you’re thinking of these people as newly thin, then how are you actually thinking about people who are still fat? You’re alluding to the fact that you have very different judgments of fat people and thin people in your life, which sucks.

Virginia

I think people who are still fat have no money in this matter, right? They’re not old money. They’re not new money. They’re the working poor.

Corinne

And yeah, maybe you could do a little thinking about that.

Virginia

So there’s a lot there, Diane. Even in wrapping up with “the more loving mature side of me thinks the surgery is just another way to give in to anti-fatness and we should all change that.”

Even that — there’s a real lack of empathy for why folks end up on that path. And if you’ve been on that path, I don’t think you’re giving in. I think you’re adopting a survival strategy. 

It feels like she has been triggered by Oprah. She’s being triggered by these new money thin friends who had their weight loss surgery. And she’s trying to figure out how to not want to do the same thing. But in her effort to not fall back down the diet culture rabbit hole, she’s actually using anti-fatness to justify her decision not to pursue this surgery or not to go back to dieting. Which is a fascinating twisting of the whole thing. That honestly makes my brain hurt. It’s like she’s basically saying, “I’m going to judge people for getting weight loss surgery. Because if I can think that’s a trashy decision, then I won’t be as tempted to do it. So I’m still over here standing up against the anti-fatness,” —without recognizing that she’s actually being incredibly anti-fat to make those judgments.

We need to have empathy for everybody who is being bombarded with anti-fatness. We need to stay focused on the industries and the systems that perpetuate that and we need to look at our own biases, Diane. 

Corinne

Do a little bit of your own work. 

Virginia

Okay, that was exhausting.

What Should I Say to My Tween Who Hates Her Jeans?

I'm wondering if you have any suggestions/recommendations for strategies on how a dad can address body-image concerns with their tween daughter.

Some backstory: My wife and I both struggle with our weight and are very careful to differentiate between weight and health.

My 12-year-old daughter had an epic anxiety attack this morning because her jeans didn't fit her. She first came downstairs wearing a pair that was too big and she kept having to hike up. My wife and I asked her to change into something that fit.

Five minutes before we walked out the door to the bus, she stormed back downstairs, crying and angry in a different pair of jeans, saying "I'm too fat for these jeans."

Ugh.

I suspect there are a variety of things happening here. She's in middle school, which is a hell unlike any other. She's been formally diagnosed with anxiety and takes anti-anxiety meds, but she's still susceptible to anxiety attacks when stressed. She's already 5'6" tall and continually growing, so it's unsurprising her jeans didn't fit. She swims 4 days a week, so she's all muscle.

Anywho, none of that helps in the moment. We eventually got her calmed down and off to school. 

I'm mainly wondering how to best support her as she begins to feel the full weight of society's unrealistic expectations for women's weight and body size.

Thanks,

Kevin

Virginia

Oh, this letter has my heart.

Corinne

Me too, yeah.

Virginia

I mean, I appreciate that a dad wrote this. I’m calling him Kevin for the purposes of our conversation. I appreciate that Kevin wants to support her. I think his heart is in the right place. Even if there was some sloppy execution in the moment. 

If I’m going to go back over what happened that morning, I think the first mistake was telling her to change out of the pants that were too big. I think 12 is too old for parents to make any real directives like that. I say this as a mother of children who, at various points younger than 12, have worn just tights to school as pants. And I have to sit on myself because I think, but they’re tights and we put a skirt over that. And my six-year-old was like, “but they’re silver and sparkly.” And of course, I’m thinking, is someone going to make fun of you at school? Is the teacher going to be like, why are you just wearing tights? Did your mother forget to put on a skirt today? How did your parents let you out of the house like this? And I said nothing. Because body autonomy, right? They get to decide what goes on their bodies. That is more important than whether they’re she’s having to hike up jeans or whether my six year old wears a skirt over tights. 

If those were the pants she put on that she felt more comfortable in, you should not have messed with that. It’s okay that they were too big. You could say, in a calmer moment, “Hey, I’m wondering if you feel like there are any holes in your wardrobe. Do we need to go shopping for anything?”

This is something I’ll do when I notice my kids are wearing pants that are suddenly too short or seem too tight or whatever. I’ll say, is there anything you need? And they’ll be like, oh, I don’t have any pants that fit. And I’ll be like, great. Let’s get new pants. But you don’t, in the moment when this kid is getting dressed and on the way to school and anxiety is high, rush in with a bunch of judgment about you can’t wear these pants to school. Especially not at twelve. Twelve is too old for you to decide when she can wear to school. 

Corinne

I mean, this letter is giving me flashbacks. 

Virginia

It’s tough. 

Another tip I really love which comes from Zoë Bisbing, who is my body positive home on Instagram, is to put a basket in your kid’s closet—I have the same basket in my closet—and say, “Hey, you’re growing pretty fast right now, if anything’s not working for you doesn’t feel good on your body, just put it in this basket to donate.” And when the basket is full, I’ll donate it and get you new stuff.

Corinne

That’s such a good tip.

Virginia

It really normalizes that bodies change. We do not expect your clothes to fit you forever, especially at twelve.

Corinne

You could peek at it and be like, okay, we might be needing to buy some new clothes.

Virginia

I noticed there are two pairs of jeans in the basket. Do we need to get new jeans? And it’s a totally neutral way to do it. 

What do you think about her saying “I’m too fat for these jeans?”

Corinne

Well, where did she hear that? Probably from someone.

Virginia

Kevin says, “My wife and I both struggle with our weight.” That framing tells me that there’s probably been some dieting and negative body talk in the house at some point. 

Corinne

Totally. 

Virginia

But I appreciate that now they’re being careful to differentiate between weight and health. It feels like kind of a work in progress and that’s totally valid. 

Corinne

It also feels like something that you probably can’t really address in the moment. 

Virginia

No, no, no. If a twelve year old is having a meltdown, you don’t come in and be like, “fat’s not a bad word.” But again, in the follow up later on, I would say, tell me about how you’re using the word fat. Or if you say like, I know I used to use fat in a really negative way and I’ve been reading and learning and I don’t think we should do that anymore. There’s nothing wrong with being fat. It’s a great way to have a body. Those jeans didn’t fit you, like, the problem is the jeans not your body.

Corinne

I’m sort of like, this happened and now what? What do the parents do now?

Virginia

I think getting her pants that fit comfortably is a big piece of that. I mean, assuming of course that they have the budget to handle replacing clothes.

I do think some kind of follow up conversation is warranted. And you want to validate that it is super frustrating and stressful to realize your jeans don’t fit right when you need to be getting out the door for school. We have all had that, right? When you think you’re wearing the thing and then it doesn’t fit and I don’t know what to wear instead. Like, that is super frustrating. And it is not your body’s fault. Bodies change. This is normal, we want you growing. 

And sometimes that means the jeans don’t fit. And that’s a big bummer. So you can validate that feeling without putting the blame on her body. 

And then big picture, how best to support her as she begins to feel the full weight of unrealistic expectations, I think it’s coming back to that again and again. Like, it sucks. These messages suck. We can name how they suck without blaming your body. 

Kevin has one other thing that I glitched on here, where he made a point of telling us that she swims four days a week and is all muscle. Kevin, that’s not relevant. We don’t need to know that. If she was a fat twelve year old she would still deserve pants. And so what we don’t want to do is say, “you’re not fat, you’re beautiful. You’re not fat, you’re a swimmer. You’re not fat, you’re all muscle.” We don’t want to put fatness in opposition to any of that.

Corinne

There’s maybe a touch of that with the separating weight and health thing, too. Like, oh, you can be big and still be healthy. Just noting that maybe your kid might be feeling some of this pressure.

Virginia

That bodies can only change in certain ways. And if she feels like her body is changing in the wrong way that’s going to trigger things. She’s also got anxiety. She’s going to be quick to spiral on some stuff. But you can help. You can help manage some of those trigger points.

Corinne

Right. And as you said, this is maybe at an age where it’s too old to be saying what she is wearing.

Virginia

I mean, again, if I send my six year old to school in tights as pants… Other than blatant weather, like a swimsuit in January is probably the only line I would draw. You are not in that child’s body and you don’t know what feels good on her body. And I think the power of self expression is really important.

And I also think there’s like natural consequences, right? Like, when one of my kids went through a phase of wanting to just in the heat of summer wear sweatshirts and sweatpants. And she got over that. She didn’t need me requiring shorts, you know? I mean, do I wish one of my kids would not wear her winter coat 24/7 including in the house, including trying to sleep in it? Yes. Yes, I find that weirdly irritating.

Corinne

I would also find that really irritating. 

Virginia

Take off your coat. You live here. Put it away. 

And she knows I wish she would take off the coat. But it’s not a mountain I die on very often because she’s cozy. She doesn’t feel like taking it off. I don’t know.

Corinne

Yeah, it is cozy. I get that. What would you say if one of your kids was trying to wear a swimsuit in January? Like, how do you have that conversation?

Virginia

Well, our school will send a note around for cold weather and be like, we still do outdoor recess so please send your child in a coat and long sleeves and whatever. So I think then I would say like, you have outdoor recess today and the school requires that you be warmly dressed for outdoor weather. 

Corinne

Blame the school.

Virginia

When you come home after school if you want to wear a swimsuit the rest of the day, great. If you want to wear a swimsuit under your clothes. It’ll make going to the bathroom hard. I will sometimes offer practical feedback like I think it’s going to be cold today. You might want another layer.

Corinne

Have either of your kids gotten into like midriff baring stuff?

Virginia

No, my kids do not like midriff baring stuff. I accidentally bought tankinis—Hanna Andersson really did me dirty and I thought they were going to be be full tankinis and they were cropped. And they were both like no thank you. And then my six year old shamed me, because she said, “I don’t like to wear swimsuits that show my tummy. That’s what you do.” And I was like “I do and I look amazing.” And she’s like, “It makes me uncomfortable.”

Corinne

Oh, that’s really funny. Oh my gosh. 

Virginia

So I don’t know where my little Puritans came from. They’re not down with showing your tummy in a swimsuit. Currently. That could all change. 

Now by twelve, often parents are navigating kids wanting to dress in ways that are more sexually provocative and I am not navigating that as a parent yet. 

But I did do a lot of research on that for the book and I learned that we are very quick to police certain girls for doing that. And certain girls, we don’t police. We don’t tend to police thin white girls for showing midrift or for showing cleavage. We do police bigger bodied girls and Black girls especially for clothes that feel small or look smaller and look sexy or whatever. And that is not the problem of any of those children’s bodies. That is because adults have a lot of anti-Black racism and anti-fatness that they need to work their own shit out. 

I really have no patience with the idea that functional adults cannot remember that somebody is twelve or ten, just because they have visible breasts. That is uninteresting to me as an argument. You can still remember that this is a child. Some children have breasts. You should treat them like you would treat any other child. Their body belongs to them and it is not your business. 

So if my kids go through a phase of wanting to dress like that, I don’t plan to crack down on it in that way. I think we will have conversations about the discourse around that. Like, I would talk to them about these dress code differences and discrimination and let them make their own informed decisions.

But it’s a tricky one. You worry that your child will be vulnerable if they go out with exposed midrift or exposed cleavage. And again, the kid’s body is never the problem. The problem is the culture where we think it’s okay to sexualize kids. That’s the problem. The culture where we’re terrified of teenage girls having sexuality. We want to police and control that.

Corinne

I’m also just thinking about this letter coming from a dad. Are these conversations that you have navigated with a dad?

Virginia

I mean, I give Kevin credit for being sensitive to this. I do think dads need to be really aware that negative comments about clothing from them or bodies from them will only be interpreted as a reason for shame from their kids from their daughters. 

I do think you have to be really aware of those gender dynamics, Kevin. A man policing, a 12 year old girl’s body is never going to be okay. I think it would be great if dads wanted to do more of the mental labor of like, “Oh, your jeans are too small. Let’s go shopping for pants.” I think it’d be great to normalize that dads can also parent their daughters through teenagehood in body positive and accepting ways. But I think you have to really keep in mind the power dynamics. What are you thinking?

Corinne

I never had conversations like that with my dad. So I have no idea what it would feel like. I feel like I probably more often felt embarrassed of stuff that my dad was wearing. He did like ill-fitting jeans. I will say that.

Virginia

His body, his choice, Corinne.

Corinne

I’m curious if my parents ever had those conversations. I really have no idea. 

Virginia

Virginia

I feel like we’ve gotten a little off topic but it is all part of a piece here. I think what we’re really saying is as you’re navigating tweens and teens through these fraught body image moments, it’s really important to just keep coming back to how do we center her body autonomy. And if it’s her wearing pants she has to hike up a few times a day, that feels fair. That feels like not a really big problem versus her having to wear pants that feel too small and uncomfortable on her body and she’s doing that for you so you feel more comfortable with her body. That’s where we went wrong.

Corinne

I think you’re right. I sometimes have to hike my pants up.

Virginia

It is a function of jeans. And I have many thousands of words on how jeans are designed to fit and they are not designed to not need hiking up. I do appreciate Kevin reaching out and I feel optimistic he can get this train back on the track. 

Corinne

Oh my God. Yeah, this one definitely gave me like hardcore sensory flashbacks to low rise jeans.

Virginia

I mean, we came of age and time of trauma for jeans. This girl doesn’t know how good she has it with high rise being available.

Butter

Virginia

Okay, we are going to have a Team Butter. Corinne and I both want to talk about Evelyn and Bobbie bras. I also want to talk about their underwear. 

Corinne

On the last Indulgence Gospel, Jenny from Cashmerette recommended Evelyn and Bobbie bras and we were both super excited about it because both of us had just ordered Evelyn and Bobbie bras, and now we have both received them. And we’re going to tell you how we feel about them. 

Virginia

I feel good.

Corinne

I’m actually wearing mine right now. I got the Defy bra, which is like, it’s very similar to the True and Co bra, but it feels much more substantial. It feels a little more engineered. When I first got it, I was like eh, I don’t know.

Virginia

You thought it was too big at first. 

Corinne

I thought that it wasn’t quite the right size. And I will say, I have since gotten my period. So maybe it’s just a fluctuation thing. I think also, what I’ve been wearing lately are these longline bralettes that go further down. So I think it feels weird that it actually hits under my boobs. But I am finding it to be like a good combo of comfortable, but also shaping. I feel like it looks good under clothes and it doesn’t just look like uniboob.

Virginia

I love the Girlfriend Collective sports bras I’ve talked about before. If you wear them under a sweater it’s fine. But if you’re wearing a tank top or something kind of form fitting, you just feel like all one piece basically.

Corinne

Yeah. I feel like I’ve basically just embraced like, it’s fine, who cares? I don’t care. But also then I was like, oh, this is kind of interesting. 

Virginia

So I returned the Defy bra. I can’t remember why I wasn’t crazy about that. But I have the Evelyn bra and the Beyond bra. I felt like it gave a slightly rounder shape if that makes sense and Defy felt a little more like it was trying to hoist them up. I don’t know, I was just more in the mood for Evelyn, I guess. But I like them both. 

The Beyond is, the straps are a little bit thinner. There is still a thick strap, but it feels a little easier to wear under something low cut or something strappy. It’s a little bit more subtle. I really liked Evelyn, I have it in two colors. And I have the Beyond in one color. But I could see myself expanding the collection. 

I will say I initially used their size chart, but I didn’t measure myself because I was lazy. I’m sorry. I know. We’re supposed to measure ourselves. But one of my kids walked off with the good measuring tape and it couldn’t find it. So I didn’t measure myself. I just looked at the size of my bra that I was wearing and went off that, forgetting that that bra has been feeling too tight for a while. So at first it told me to get the large and I was like that doesn’t seem right. And that was definitely a little too small. Then I upgraded to the extra large and I’m almost tempted to try the 2XL. The band is rolling on me a bit.

Corinne

I don’t think that I ever don’t have band rolling, at least in the front. It’s the way it is, like it just folds because like my boobs touch my belly. 

Virginia

Yeah, that’s where I’m like, would sizing up really help this? Is this just a function of if you go out instead of going in?

Corinne

Does yours roll in the back? I feel like if it rolls in the back then it’s too small. I always unroll it and pull it down over like the top of my belly. I’m trying to stop doing that.

Virginia

We are classy ladies. 

Corinne

I’m curious about the Beyond bra one because that one has clasps in the back.

Virginia

Yeah, it has a regular bra closure so it’s also a little easier to get into. Did you have to did you like fight your way in at first?

Corinne

No, I feel like I’m maybe between, I think I ordered the 3XL and I think I may be like between 2x and 3x. 

Virginia

Okay. So you could just get it in. Did you see the tip to step into it. 

Corinne

Oh, shit. Wow. 

Virginia

And at first I was like, how will that work? But it’s actually much better. If I tried to put the Evelyn bra over my head, it’s like flashbacks to eighth grade sports bra.

Corinne

Oh my god. That’s funny.

Virginia

But you can step in and pull up. 

Corinne

Oh, that’s so crazy because I feel like that part of my body is so much bigger, so much wider.

Virginia

I know. I don’t understand why it works better, but it’s way less like panic inducing. I don’t feel trapped. So that is one tip. If you’re trying them on, and you feel like it’s hard to get on, try stepping into it. And the other thing is it said after three wearings, it does stretch quite a bit. So if it feels a smidge tight at first, that’s actually good because it will stretch.

But yeah, the Beyond bra also has adjustable straps, which I thought seemed helpful. So I think with the adjustable straps and the hook and eye closure with the band, you can get a little more of a custom fit. The Evelyn and the Defy are just all one piece bras. They are comfy. I wore them on vacation where it was hot and they were still comfortable. 

Corinne

And I just want to say about the sizing, it’s probably obvious if you’re listening to this and you know what we look like, but me being between a 2x and 3x, that’s not my normal size in shirts. These are very generous sizing and will probably fit you if you’re like, I don’t know, a 4x or 5x. 

Virginia

I’m in the XL. I would normally be on the 1x or the 2x.

Corinne

The other thing I was going to say is I had heard about Evelyn Bobbie and looked at them and been like, this is exactly the same as True and Co. I don’t need to try this. And it’s really different. So if you’ve also looked and been like, this looks exactly like something I have, you should still maybe try it.

Virginia

It’s a much thicker fabric with a little bit of compression. It’s not like a minimizer but the compression supports you. More support. The True and Co bras I really wear to sleep in or around the house, but I don’t wear them if I’m going to be walking any distance. There will not be support. They’re so comfy, but they’re not like go places bras. Whereas this feels like as much support as an underwire bra without any of that nonsense. 

And I did also get their underwear because I am a sucker for making it a set. Marketing is very effective on me. And I do really like their underwear. It has the same problem that a lot of plus size underwear has, where the leg hole is a little too big. But they do not roll down at the waist which is very hard to find. So I am sacrificing, like the leg hole is a little roomier than I need, but they’re very thin and lightweight. Whereas some of the other plus size underwear we like—like I do have a new pair of Thunderpants which I really enjoy, or Universal Standard underwear—is like a thicker, t-shirt material. Which is great for under jeans or something, but in the summer under shorts or white pants you want something a little less bulky. I was into the underwear.

Corinne

Are they high waisted enough?

Virginia

Yeah, I guess they are. I have the retro bikini and the girl short.

Corinne

Cool. I looked at the underwear and was like, looks like not for me, but maybe I’ll reconsider. 

Virginia

This is all very unsponsored, although we’ll probably use affiliate links if we have them. But we spent our own money on these things. We’re testing them in real time for you. I mean, I can’t tell you how many Instagram ads I get fed for the underwire free bra of your dreams. And then I look and it’s like, we totally do big boobs and they go up to a double D.

Corinne

Thank goodness for Jenny recommending it because otherwise I totally would have dismissed it. 

Virginia

All right. Another excellent Extra Butter episode! Thank you guys for listening.

---

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.

Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti diet journalism. I’ll talk to you soon.