It’s time for your November Indulgence Gospel. Today, we’re doing an old fashioned mailbag episode for you.

We are going to chat about grocery shopping.

We’re going to talk about what to do if you are “not fat enough” to be in a fat space.

We are going to talk about how to get divorced.

We’re going to talk about a mom who wants to stop her adult daughter from getting diabetes.

And we’re both going to dig into our phones and face up to…just how much time we spend on them and why.

To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscribe here.

If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Substack. You can also subscribe to Corinne's newsletter, Big Undies, for 20% off using this special link. To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.

Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) 

Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

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Virginia

Corinne, what’s new in your world?

Corinne

It finally got cool today. The high today is 72. 

Virginia

That’s not cool! 

Corinne

It’s been like 85-88. I’ve been dying to wear pants, so I’m really excited for the coming week.

Virginia

Do you have pants you’re excited about, or are you just revisiting old pants right now?

Corinne

I think I’m coming to terms with the fact that I need to do a pants assessment. I need to pull out all the pants, see what I like, see what fits, see what I need.

Since this is the first cool, fall-feeling week we’ve had in Albuquerque, I took all my shorts off their shelf to stash away for the winter. Which means that I also pulled out all my pants to evaluate…

Virginia

I feel like I am missing a category of pants, but I don’t know what it is? I’m very happy with my joggers. I have a pair of skinny jeans for when I go back into being that person. And I do still like the Universal Standard jeans that we both love from last year. They still fit. So I don’t know my heart wants something else, and I don’t know what it wants. Do I want a barrel pants? Do I want a boot cut? I had a thought about boot cut jeans. We swore we’d never go back there, but I saw someone on Instagram wearing boot cut jeans, and I was like, do I love boot cut jeans? I don’t know what’s happening. 

Corinne

I’m excited for you to try them. 

Virginia

I don’t know. That’s my pants news. Should we do some questions?

Corinne

Yes, I’ll read the first one.

I loved the episode where you described your work week. Now that the newsletter comes out on Friday, what does your new work week look like? I would also love to learn more about Corinne’s work week now that she is doing such a great job with

Big Undies

.

Virginia

Corinne is doing such a great job with

Big Undies

Thank you for noticing. You should be reading it.Don’t forget,you get a 20 percent discount when you subscribe, so you should.If you’re not, you’re missing out! This is what I would first like to say. 

I also love this question, because I thought for sure we were boring everybody by talking about our work process, like that feels like such a boring question. And yet I love these details of how do people spend their work week!

So yeah, if you are like, “That is a boring question, why did you answer this first?” feel free to skip ahead to where we get to more juicy stuff. But we’re going to talk about process. Do you want to talk about what working on Big Undies and Burnt Toast is feeling like?

Corinne

Yes, I’m just still wrapping my head around it. It’s going good. Because Big Undies posts come out on Monday and Wednesday, usually I’m trying to have the Monday post done by Friday. And sometimes working on it on the weekend.

Virginia

Work in progress, that’s alright. 

Corinne

Yes. And usually doing the Wednesday post on Monday, and then you usually do your Tuesday post, which is now the open thread?

Virginia

Is it a thread? Is it an essay? Is it a link roundup? Tuesday is finding itself. Tuesday’s on a journey right now. It was Friday Thread, but now Substack is pushing to replace threads with Chat, so we’re doing more in Chat. Which is great, I actually love Chat!

Join Virginia Sole-Smith’s subscriber chat

Available in the Substack app and on web

But it means now I’m feeling like the Tuesday piece is more of a little short essay plus some links, or sometimes just links, or, I don’t know. I would love feedback on what people want to see on Tuesdays!

The way my week goes is Monday is my long work day, because the kids are always with their dad until at least through dinner time on Mondays. So that is my big writing day, where I try to now write the essay that will run that Friday of that week. The other thing that happens on Monday is Corinne and I have our weekly editorial meeting, which Corinne instituted as self defense measure against the thousands of texts I otherwise send. And that was smart.

Corinne

For listeners: That is not how I would describe what happened. Just so we’re clear. 

Virginia

I think it was reasonable. I think it’s a really good solution to the number of times I would text you, “What was that thing I texted you that I should write about that I don’t remember?”

Corinne

I think the problem with texting is we would text stuff and be like, “Yes, great idea!” and then no one would remember it.

Virginia

It would not get written down anywhere useful.

Corinne

It maybe speaks more to perimenopause or something. 

Virginia

Anyway. Now we have the Monday meetings, and we go over both of our lineups for a Big Undies and Burnt Toast, and we’re just so efficient. So I write on Mondays. I meet with Corinne on Mondays. And if I’m recording a podcast episode on Tuesday or Wednesday, I get prepped for that. Then Tuesdays, I am usually finishing up the Friday essay to get Corinne a draft. That’s thing one. Thing Two is editing Big Undies for Corinne when she’s ready for me. Thing Three is maybe recording a podcast episode, or starting to work on the following week’s essay if there’s reporting that needs to happen for the following week’s essay. I’m trying to get that going.

Then Wednesday, Big Undies comes out, and Corinne has gotten me the transcript for the podcast, and Tommy, our audio engineer, is always working behind the scenes getting us podcast edits. So Wednesday is when I do the final pass on that week’s podcast episode. And now it’s also when Corinne and I record. We are coming to you from a Wednesday in real time. So, we record or I record with a guest, and then Thursday the podcast comes out, I finish up the Friday essay and schedule it. And for the following Tuesday, I write whatever that’s going to be. And usually I’ve been dropping links in a draft all week, so then it’s just putting that together. Then Fridays are kind of my catch up on everything day, and maybe I don’t have to work if I was really on top of my shit, but otherwise, I do whatever needs to get done.

The new Friday essay thing is really helping my brain and I can’t quite explain why it feels better. But I think before I used to have my big writing day be Thursday, and my bandwidth for the week was already draining, so then I would almost always end up having to write a bunch on Friday and be really tapped out. So that’s been nice, but we’re always tinkering with it. And, I feel like doing the two newsletters together, we’re still finding the rhythm, but I think it’s going pretty well. 

Corinne

Yeah, I think it’s going good.

Virginia

I like it. Everyone read

Big Undies

!

Aright, this next question is mortifying. Prepare to be mortified on our behalf. This reader would like to know what is our weekly screen time.

Corinne

We are looking this up in real time because neither of us knew. I’m not even sure I know how to look. You go first.

Virginia

Okay, my daily average so far for this week is… 8 hours and 10 minutes.

Corinne

Okay. Wait, mine just changed? Okay, mine just updated from 8 hours 15 minutes to 7 hours 30 minutes, and it says down 20% from last week. 

Virginia

I’m down 14% from last week!

Corinne

What was happening last week? Well we’re in the same ballpark of about eight hours.

Virginia

Eight hours a day looking at our phone. Jesus Christ, I am so upset about that. Let’s just stop. 

Corinne

What’s your most used app?

Virginia

Mine is Messages.

Corinne

Mine is TikTok. 

Virginia

Well, we knew it was going to be TikTok. But that’s research. You’re doing work! My most used category is texting. It looks like today I’ve texted for an hour and 46 minutes. How am I getting my job done?

Corinne

That’s a great question honestly. How are you? Mine is—I’m looking at the weekly but it’s telling me 8 hours and 45 minutes for TikTok. That’s like an entire day. What the hell?

Virginia

Oh my God, this question is so upsetting. 

Corinne

And then I have 5.5 hours on Instagram and 5.5 hours on Messages. How am I getting anything done? 

Virginia

My daily average for Messages is… 3 hours and 41 minutes.

Corinne

Wow.

Virginia

I guess I’m not allowed to say I’m too busy. I’m just chatting away with people.

Corinne

My daily average for messages is 22 minutes, just for the record. 

Virginia

Okay. Well. I don’t have TikTok. 

Corinne

I am way less popular than you.

Virginia

I’m going to blame

Sara Petersen

. I love you, Sara, but you’re a power texter as well, and we are bad for each other. We are enabling. I’m also going to blameAmy Palanjianand

Melinda Wenner Moyer

. And… I’m not going to comment on who else I’m texting with. But it takes up a lot of my time, is what I’ll say.

Ok but I am on Instagram much less than I used to be, and that was deliberate, so I am proud to see that’s working. I stopped making reels, which was a huge time suck—it really got in the way of my texting! And I did put a one hour limit on Instagram, and my daily average is 1 hour 9 minutes. So that feels pretty good, I’m not wildly exceeding it. Because you can obviously override all the limits. But I think I’ve done what I need to do on Instagram. That’s plenty.

Corinne

I need to put a limit on TikTok.

Virginia

I mean, it’s something to look at? It’s something to reflect on, I guess.

I’m not putting a limit on texting, though. I need to be in communication with my people. Apparently I spent 14 hours and 44 minutes texting last week. 

Corinne

What are we supposed to do with this information? I don’t know. 

Virginia

Why were we asked that? Why did we have to know? 

Corinne

I’m curious if our numbers are high or low.

Virginia

I think we are very online people by dint of our professions. So I think it’s high compared to less online people, for sure. And I also feel okay about like, being in touch with loved ones. And you should feel okay about watching JewelryTok. We all have the things we need. We’re not here to shame anyone’s screen time. We would obviously be in no position to do that.

Corinne

Let’s move on!

Talk to me about grocery shopping. My five year old would like nothing but Pringles and mac and cheese. My two year old, bananas and gummies. I feel like I still need to provide them some sort of structure with nutrition available. We also need to stick to some sort of budget. How do I shop? Right now, I take suggestions and put them on a list and refuse to go to more than one store a week. But is there a better way?

Virginia

First I’ll say that Pringles, mac and cheese, bananas, and gummies are all foods that provide nutrition and also pleasure, so I don’t think they are foods you need to restrict. Also, I’m trying to avoid giving people advice specifically on how to feed their children now, but we can link back to some other stuff we’ve done about this in the past. 

I think kids can understand that you’re on a budget, and so you only buy however many boxes of these things you buy per week. They can understand that once they’re gone for the week, we’ll buy more next week. I think the key with these kinds of preferred foods is that you are offering them often, so kids don’t have a scarcity mindset about them. But what “often” means can vary. It’s just about maintaining some predictability, so the kids know those foods will be in rotation and they can count on them. That’s the key to not having them be overly fixated on them.

Sticking to a grocery budget is not a talent of mine, I will say. I have done it in the past. I am in a season of life where I’m leaning into ease and therefore not doing great with grocery budgeting. It’s really, really hard, and also food is crazy expensive right now. What are your thoughts, Corinne?

Corinne

I’m always interested in how people are grocery shopping, because it’s one of those things that your parents did it, and then you have to figure out how to do it for yourself and it’s always changing. Stuff exists now that didn’t exist then. 

Virginia

Yeah, I talked about in the newsletter about how I’m leaning into Instacart as one of my single parenting strategies. And I did have the thought the other day that it means my kids have not been to a grocery store in a really long time. I think sometimes they go with their dad. But I think he often grocery shops before they get to his house. And I was like, when will they learn that skill? It’s not at age seven, because we’re not doing it right now. 

Corinne

It is a real skill. I can really easily fall prey to DoorDash or GrubHub if I don’t have readily available food. I grocery shop once a week, or sometimes less frequently, like every 10 days or something. I have a well-stocked pantry. I pretty much always have like pasta and sauce on hand and something from Trader Joe’s in the freezer,. Sometimes I would go to the farmers market or something, but I’ll try to pick out one or two things I’m going to make, and put that stuff on my my grocery list, and then make a note in my phone of what the stuff is. 

Virginia

Oh, that’s smart. 

Corinne

Because I feel like it’s so hard. Shopping and cooking, it’s all so hard. It’s so much work. I just sometimes can buy stuff and forget. So that’s what I’m trying to do now. But having ingredients on hand to be able to make a few things, and also always having backup stuff, like cans of soup, freezer stuff, whatever, Trader Joe’s.

Virginia

Yeah. I do a big Instacart order weekly, on Fridays usually. I love their “buy it again” feature, because we go through a certain amount of oat milk each week, a certain amount of regular milk, a certain amount of strawberries. So I just reorder all of that. Then when I have my shit together and I meal plan a few meals, I would add on things to go with those meals. 

But a lot of times lately I’m doing less meal planning and more, like, “I know I will always make pesto pasta on Tuesdays.” There are certain meals I make every week that I just know I need to have the ingredients on hand for. Then there are certain snacks we go through every week that I just restock. I often, due to lack of efficiency, end up having to do a Monday or a Tuesday second order, because I miscalculated. I mean, the thing with kids, too, is they’ll go through a phase of not really eating a thing, and then they’ll eat all of it in one day. Like, wait, I actually need eight more frozen burritos to make it through the week. So there’s often this second grocery shop.

So I’m useless. I have no good ideas. But I like what this mom is saying about taking suggestions and putting them on the list. I think it’s fine to say you’re only going to one store a week, and I think you’re both hearing them and putting some structure around it. I think that’s pretty good. 

Corinne

Yeah, I agree. 

Virginia

All right. I’ll read the next one, because I really want to hear your answer.

Can I show up in fat spaces if I’m not “fat enough?” I consider myself small fat, but also benefit from some level of thin privilege. I love the idea of fat community, fat swim, etc, but I wonder if I am fat enough to participate. Last summer, I attended a vintage sale for plus size people. The invitation said my size was welcome. There was a minimum threshold listed, but when I was there, almost everyone was larger than me, and many were much larger than me. Nothing happened to make me feel unwelcome, but my own social anxiety made me feel like I was infringing on someone else’s space. So I guess my question is, if I still experience some thin privilege, can I show up in fat spaces, or do I sit those opportunities out?

Corinne

This is such a complicated question. 

Virginia

Yeah, it is.

Corinne

But I feel like my answer would be: If you are small fat, then you are fat and you are welcome in those spaces.

Virginia

I mean, as a small fat person whose life work is about fatness, I agree! But I’m glad to hear you say it. 

Corinne

I’ve run into this a little bit when I’ve hosted that fat swim event, where people are like, “am I allowed to go?” Or, you know, like, “I’m an ally.” And, body size is something that changes. So, there are people who used to be fat, or there are people who used to be thin. And the fatness scale exists. So you can look at and say, like, “I’m on this,” or “I’m not.” 

Though I will say, about the fatness scale (which I did not create): The smallest sizes on there, I would hesitate to call fat. I think it’s like a women’s size 10 or something. 

Virginia

Yeah, I’d hesitate to call that fat. 

Corinne

That’s like a Torrid 00 or whatever. But I do think there is a line that has been established by other people that you can use as a guide.

Virginia

I think, too, anti-fatness harms everyone. And thin privilege benefits almost everyone in different ways. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can be pretty fat and still have certain contexts where you are going to have more privilege than someone fatter than you. So I think what matters to me more is that we’re doing what we can to make space for folks with less privilege to be centered in whatever conversations or spaces we’re in. 

It is also true that there’s a problem with small fat people dominating fat spaces at times. We see this in online contexts like chat groups, that kind of thing. Certainly in the way fatness is portrayed on social media, we see smaller fat creators getting way more attention and influence than fatter creators. So I think those of us on the smaller end have a real responsibility to be looking closely at this and navigating how we are moving in these spaces. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be in the room at all, I guess is where I land. 

Corinne

Yeah, I agree. I think you should be in the room. You can be in the room and you have some amount of responsibility to advocate for other people. 

Virginia

I think where it can sometimes go badly is when a small fat person is overly fixated on the specific context where they feel the fattest and are the fattest. So, for example: In Los Angeles, in New York City, in women’s magazines, a size 10 is a fat person. But that does not mean that a size 10 experiences anti-fatness the way a size 26 or a size 32 does. I think sometimes people overly focus on the context where they feel the most marginalized, and it stops them from thinking bigger than that.

One example of this is when I’ll talk to friends who are small fat or mid-size, and we’ll talk a lot about clothing access, clothing access, clothing access—which is real and a barrier we face, and yet, they won’t know that chairs have weight limits. Or they won’t have thought about airplanes at all. Or doctor’s offices. So there are other ways in which their privilege is is not making them aware of different pieces of this. 

Kate Manne

has been writingsome really thoughtful stuffabout this. Kate is someone who has been fatter, is currently in a small fat, mid-sized body, and has been navigating buying a formal dress, which is a nightmare for everybody. She wrote really thoughtfully about who can claim fatness? What does this mean? 

I think one layer of my thin privilege is having grown up as a thin kid, so I’ve had to get used to being a fat adult, but I don’t have the childhood trauma associated with fatness being weaponized against me. Whereas someone like Kate, who’s thinner than I am now, grew up in a bigger body and experienced horrific bullying. Kate has a claim to fatness that I don’t have, even though I’m fatter than her right now. Does that make sense? 

Corinne

Totally. 

Virginia

So it is really, really nuanced. 

Corinne

I also always think about the way height plays into it. Short people who are technically mid-sized, are sometimes still perceived as fat, and really tall people who are fat look less fat. Think about plus size models who are six feet tall and a size 12 or a size 16. There’s just a lot that goes into it.

Virginia

There definitely is. And I think just the fact this person’s thinking about it suggests to me that they’re probably doing okay, but yeah, keep thinking about it.

Corinne

Here’s the next question:

I’m curious how you feel about others buying you clothes. My mom keeps buying me stuff, even after I’ve politely asked her to stop. I don’t know why, but it makes me feel uncomfortable. I’m still figuring out my style at age 44 and how clothes fit my body. She seems to just buy a 2X or 3X and think it will fit without actually looking at the item and seeing if it seems like the appropriate size for me. She’s formerly small fat and now in a straight sized body and lives with us. 

I’m experiencing a similar difficulty with my mom buying clothes for my almost nine year old, as I’ve shared on here before. She’s in a slightly larger body and developing before some of her peers. Grandma buying her and her six year old very thin little sister clothes is causing a lot of problems around here. Completely innocent intentions, of course, but nonetheless.

Virginia

I don’t think anyone in my life buys me clothes. I think maybe you can say to your mom, “I would love it if you bought me plants.” Give her something else to do because maybe just telling her to stop buying clothes left her too at sea. 

For the kids, say “I’d love if we could give you their wish lists.” I think removing this variable seems fine, it’s well intentioned but it’s going to constantly create stress for you and your kids, which is not the intention of a gift. I think it’s okay to say, “This is so lovely but I’m just really hard to shop for and I’m so particular, and I already buy the clothes I want.” And you know, “The kids are getting more particular about what they want to wear. It would just be great if we could shift off clothes” I don’t know how that would work, but that’s my starting point.

Corinne

I think that’s good advice. It kind of sounds like the grandma isn’t going to stop buying clothes, because she’s already been asked. So I don’t know. I was wondering about being like, “Could we all go shopping together somewhere, so we could avoid the buying and returning and just figure out what we like, especially with the kids. Like, why don’t you take them all to Target or something?

Virginia

This came in through the Substack Chat, and a couple of folks suggested giving the mom measurements for everybody so that she can really check that the sizing is going to work. And I think that’s really good advice.

It might be worth trying to give your mom some more information about why plus size clothes fit so badly and irregularly. Like, send her the podcast interview we did with a plus size fashion designer talking about how bad the sizing is. Maybe give her a little more information, because the fact that she’s seeking out plus sizes for you and buying the 2X and 3X tells me she’s half aware of the problem. But is just like, hoping, oh, I found a cute thing in 2x this will work. She doesn’t understand why 2X is not the same everywhere. 

I mean number one, when she realizes how hard it is, she might just be like, “Fine, I’ll buy plants. This is too hard.” And not want to do it. But also, if she does genuinely want to do it, if this really gives her joy, maybe you can be more straightforward about this is the legwork I do. And maybe it’s even just talking about modeling when you’re shopping for a clothing item for yourself, bring her into it and be like, oh, I’m trying to read these size charts to figure out what size jeans I am now. And show her that labor a little. 

Okay, we’ve got another family one here, this person writes,

My mother in law and brother in law are both fat and often are on diets. Weight Watchers. Noom, you get the picture. We don’t live near them, but we’ll see them a lot during the holidays. I am straight sized. I never know what to say when they are talking about their diets being good or bad this week, how much they lost last week, how many points they have left, etc. It breaks my heart how much energy they put into trying to make themselves smaller, and I think they both look great just as they are, but it’s not my body, and I am not fat, so I never say anything. I don’t want my young kids internalizing that there is anything inherently wrong with their grandmother and uncle. Any advice on how to be a loving ally here?

Corinne

I can totally understand wanting to say something. And I also kind of think, like, it’s probably not going to have an effect. 

Virginia

I’m loving all the ally energy today! Everyone wanting to show up for fat people. We love that.

I think you can reflect to them when they share stuff like that, you you can just say you always look great to me, or I’m glad you’re feeling good in your body. If they’re talking about being good or something. I think you can just find ways to validate that from your perspective, their body is not a problem.

And maybe also making sure when you see them, like, have you looked at your dining room chairs? Have you made sure that your space is welcoming for them?

Not that you would say to them, “I just purchased some higher weight limit chairs for you.” Like, don’t perform it. But can you make sure that your home, if you’re hosting them, is a space where their body feels comfortable? It’s just little things that we can all be doing, and it might go a long way. I mean, I don’t know if this is what’s happening, but sometimes I think that folks feel like they have to perform weight loss as part of being the good fattie. It’s possible if your home feels more welcoming in this front, they will feel less like they have to perform that for you.

Corinne

I think you could also just say, “It breaks my heart how much energy you are putting into trying to make yourself smaller.” But yeah, it might be a hard thing to slip into a conversation.

Virginia

As for the kids, I wouldn’t stress about that so much. If they’re talking about the stuff in front of your kids, you can later say, “We love grandma so much. This world is really tough for fat folks, and it’s hard to hear her talking about her body that way. But we don’t expect that for you.”

You want to read the next one? 

Corinne

Yes.

My daughter is extremely overweight. Her grandmother was a needle carrying diabetic, and it runs in the family. I love my daughter with all my heart, but what should I encourage her to do to avoid becoming diabetic?

Virginia

Nothing. You should say nothing. Nobody asked you!

You don’t need to encourage her to avoid becoming diabetic. That’s not your job.

What do you want to add?

Corinne

I think you could encourage her to not have an eating disorder.

Virginia

I would stop using phrases like “extremely overweight” and “needle carrying diabetic.” That is such stigmatizing language.

It also sounds like you have really framed diabetes in your mind as something that people choose to opt into or opt out of, because you want to encourage her to avoid becoming one, as if that’s a train she can take off the tracks. This is not something she has as much control over as you think. But even if it was, it’s not your job to police her eating habits, her body size, her workout choices, any of that. It’s not your job.

Corinne

Yeah, leave her alone.

Virginia

I’m glad you’re here. I’m glad you sent in a question, but please stop. She doesn’t need this from you. She needs you to love her and support her. And if she does get diabetes, she needs your support and not any of that energy. We don’t need this energy. 

Okay, that is enough family drama questions. Those were some heavy family drama questions. Now we will return to judging our media consumption. This person would like to know,

what piece of media do you consume, even though it’s problematic?

Corinne

I mean, hard to limit myself to one!

Virginia

Corinne only consumes problematic media.

Corinne

Almost everything could be problematic. The one that has been coming up for me a lot recently is—I have watched most seasons of Love Is Blind. And I just increasingly feel like reality television is almost unethical, because they are borderline torturing people. Like putting them in a weird space and then filming them, using that footage to create narratives. Especially with the alcohol stuff. I was just noticing on this recent season, just the drinking. Like, I would not be drinking in that context. And I have wondered if they turn away people who are sober.

Virginia

Oh, interesting. If they’ll even cast them.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s what I mean.

Virginia

Are they casting with an eye towards “you seem to have a complicated relationship with booze, come on and drink with us!”

Corinne

Right. And I’m a little bit older, you know? I’m 38 but I feel like I know so many people who don’t drink, and I’ve never seen a person not drink on one of these shows. I don’t know, it feels very problematic to me.

Virginia

And yet you’re watching. 

Corinne

And yet I watch. 

Virginia

No judgment. 

I was trying to think. A lot of my TV viewing happens with my 11-year-old. We watch shows together in the evening, and we revisit a lot of shows that I have already watched, which often means they’re problematic. Like right now we’re rewatching Parks & Recreation. Her first watch, my re-watch, and it’s full of anti-fatness. The way they talk about diabetes on that show is horrific. 

There’s also a lot of homophobia, and it’s very much a product of its time. And, Leslie Knope is an iconic, great character. And there’s lots of really funny, great stuff. But, like, Aziz Ansari is on it, and I forgot Louis CK has a part in one season. There’s one episode where it was like, Aziz and Louis CK, and I was like, “This is a lot of problematic men in a sitcom for me!” I pause frequently, and say, let’s talk about that! And she’s like, I know, I know, I know. Please stop. 

The other night, she said to me, “eEvery show you make me watch has so much anti-fatness.” I was like, “Fair, fair. That’s true.” So, yeah, old sitcoms are a big one, but at least we’re using it as a jumping off point to discuss things.

Also, we were just talking about in the Substack Chat today about the new Netflix show Nobody Wants This, which I did really love and think is problematic. There are some really not great portrayals of Jewish women on that show, and that was upsetting to me. And, Adam Brody is so hot, so it was hard to not keep watching because of his hotness. That was hard for me. I obviously chose to watch it all, and will probably watch season two. But yeah, it sucks. Media is problematic. 

Corinne

It is. 

The next question is for you.

Any advice on how to make the legal divorce process easier?

Virginia

I’m just like, can I be helpful? I am not qualified to weigh in on anyone else’s divorce, because every divorce is so different and so much depends on the financial impact of divorce on your life. It varies tremendously and tends to be awful for everyone, but like, different flavors of awful. The degree to which finances will be up for negotiation and the degree to which whoever you’re divorcing is just baseline not an asshole. Those two things really determine whether the divorce process is easy or not. 

The legal system is not set up to work well for anybody. It doesn’t advocate well for anyone. So the best case scenario is to bypass the legal system as much as possible and do mediation or collaborative divorce, which is what we did. Collaborative divorce is where you do each have a lawyer. And there’s no mediator. But your lawyers have all agreed ahead of time that they will not represent you if it goes to litigation. They are committed to a collaborative process. So if you were to decide you couldn’t work it out directly, you’d have to hire a whole new lawyer to go to court. These lawyers will not go to court with you. So it’s kind of like mediation, but you do have a little more personal support in terms of the lawyer, and then there’s also a neutral financial advisor and a neutral parenting plan person who you work with. 

And it was great. Our divorce was very streamlined. But it was streamlined through a fuck ton of privilege. So I cannot say, definitely do that, because if your ex is abusive or emotionally toxic, that may not be a safe way for you to go. But if it is a situation where you’re like, “We should not be married but we don’t outright hate each other, and I am safe and I’m not experiencing abuse of any kind,” then I would suggest mediation or collaborative divorce will get you through it faster and cheaper. 

Mediation is cheaper than collaborative divorce, just because there are fewer people to hire, and it can be great. Also it’s still so much paperwork. I’m never going to convince the electrical company that a single woman can have a utility in her own name, It’s just never going to happen. So just sending solidarity, it’s a lot of paperwork and annoying phone calls on top of all of the other not fun parts.

Let’s talk about food. Bring it up with some food. 

Corinne

Thank God. 

Virginia

Favorite Thanksgiving / fall dish?

Corinne

Wow. I mean, hard to single out just one! 

Virginia

Interesting. I don’t love a lot of Thanksgiving food. Does that make me a weirdo?

Corinne

What about fall? 

Virginia

I guess I like fall?

Corinne

This probably does make you a weirdo.

Virginia

I feel like a lot of Thanksgiving food is kind of bland and mushy. It’s just not a spicy holiday. 

Corinne

No, it’s not. It’s not. 

Virginia

I like a spicier holiday.

Corinne

Okay? Well, the one that’s coming up for me right now is chicken pot pie. 

Virginia

Okay, yeah, that’s good. 

Corinne

You’re like, meh. I feel like it’s really good with leftover turkey. And as discussed, I’m like starting to get cooler weather, so I can’t freaking wait to be eating soup and biscuits and chicken pot pie and lasagna and pumpkin bread.

Virginia

You are all in on the fall food. I do like pumpkin bread. I do like pumpkin flavored things. I used to think I didn’t, but I do like some pumpkin and apple crisp. I really enjoy a really good apple crisp.

Corinne

Anything apple. 

Virginia

I like the pie options and the crisp options. 

Corinne

Pumpkin pie?

Virginia

Yeah, it’s fine? I’m not, like, getting out of bed jazzed for it, but it’s fine. But in general, I like spicier cuisine than a lot of standard American fall cooking tends to be. So Thanksgiving is just not my favorite food holiday. I’m sorry.

[Post-recording note from Virginia: I am validated, Samin Nosrat agrees with me!!!]

Corinne

Maybe you need to make a spicy relish or something. 

Virginia

The thing I do bring to Thanksgiving every year is a very good fresh cranberry relish that is quite delicious. That peps it up for me a little bit. (This recipe is close, but mine also contains a little canned pineapple, chopped apple, and pecans.)

Do you want to read the next one?

Corinne

Yes.

I’m fighting a cold and grumpy that my smart watch is judging me for not working out this week.

Virginia

I mean, fuck your smart watch! Put that bitch in a drawer! You don’t need it. 

Corinne

Yeah. Seems like a good week to take the smart watch off.

Virginia

Your phone has a clock. I don’t wear a watch at all. It’s fine. As discussed, I do look at my phone far too often, but that’s neither here nor there. You don’t need this in your life. 

Corinne

Yeah, I have been a smart watch wearer sometimes, or like a Fitbit wearer, and if it was bothering me, I would definitely just take it off.

Virginia

I’ve never done it because I know my brain and that kind of tracking—this is why I don’t look at my screen time. I don’t need to know these numbers. They’re not going to be helpful for me. They’re just going to make me feel bad. 

Share

Okay, these last two are kind of wacky, but I think they’re going to be fun. So the first one is, 

If you had the power to conjure a perfect item of clothing for yourself, what would it be and what would it feature? For example, a green leather jacket with fringe and a giant back patch of your favorite band; a rainbow brite costume that turned you into cartoons maybe; a neon wig with enough room in it that could function as a purse; a gold lame quilted fannypack. 

I mean, this person gave such amazing answers. I don’t know that we can top this.

Those are all so good. My answer is jeans that always fit. Jeans that don’t stretch out after two wearings and always fit. I depressingly think that’s what mine would be.

Corinne

I have so many thoughts. This is bringing back the $700 denim jacket for me, because I’m like, well, and how much would it cost?

Big Undies

Would You Spend $700 on a Shirt?

A couple of weeks ago I saw this post about the brand Toteme on Harriet Hadfield’s Substack and was immediately captivated by the denim shirt (coat? shacket?) in the collage image. A simple collar, nice pockets, snaps, good drape—it looked perfect. When I scrolled down to read about it, I learned that the midsize Harriet is wearing an XXS—meaning it runs…

Read more

a year ago · 159 likes · 83 comments · Corinne Fay

Virginia

Yeah, fair question. I think if we’re conjuring the item, we can assume it’s on sale. 

Corinne

And I feel like it’s also hard not to get into, like, superpowers, like what about a jetpack?

Virginia

A coat that’s also a jet.

Corinne

Or an invisibility cloak.

Virginia

That’s the obvious place to go is invisibility clothing.

Corinne

The other thing that I was thinking was, like, I don’t want to invent it. I want to be surprised by what someone else comes up with!

Virginia

You’re like, the perfect item of clothing is something that requires no mental load from me, thank you. 

Corinne

Yeah, I feel like it’s something I see on some website that only comes in size small, and I’m like, oh, I want that. But I didn’t come up with it. I want it because it’s cool and different. 

Virginia

Maybe what you want is the power to be able to resize any item to be size inclusive. That would be really awesome. So everything can fit you. 

Corinne

Yeah, perfect. Thats all I want. 

Virginia

I mean, I’m also into the neon wig that can function as a purse. I’m not ruling it out, but I think our needs are more humble. We just want clothes that fit.

Corinne

I mean, I love the idea of a green leather jacket with fringe. I can’t see myself wearing it, but you never know.

Virginia

No, I agree, but I’m here for it.

And this last ridiculous question is,

If you could have a different liquid shoot out of each of your fingers like a soda gun, what liquids would you choose? 

Corinne

So we’re talking five liquids? 

Virginia

Yeah, I don’t think we have to do all 10. We can assume both hands are the same.

Corinne

One of mine would be ice water. Or, if we’re really making this a magical situation, water with like crushed ice in it, like pebble ice. 

Virginia

I love that your answer could be any liquid and you’re like, just water. 

Corinne

Well, do you know how frustrating it would be to be walking around with soda coming out of your fingers and you just wanted water? 

Virginia

That’s a fair point, and you you’re still having to refill your Stanley Cup to have enough water in the day. This way it’s like your finger is an unlimited Stanley Cup.

Corinne

And I really love crushed ice. If I could just have crushed ice shooting out of a finger, I would take it.

Virginia

Okay, so that’s one. What else?

Corinne

Mine are going to be so boring. 

Virginia

I’m waiting for electrolytes. 

Corinne

Okay, Sure. Gatorade. I also want to say, like, iced tea or something. I feel like it would be water, Gatorade, iced tea, lemonade. And what’s the last one I feel like I need something more fun?

Virginia

A mocktail?

Corinne

Champagne.

Virginia

The pinky finger is champagne. Why not?

Corinne

Just for special occasions.

Virginia

Alright, I think mine would be—I mean, now you sold me on water because it does seem very practical. Obviously Diet Coke, obviously, also my mandarin orange aspartame seltzer that I’m obsessed with. I mean, coffee. Are we allowed to have different temperatures? Can I have a latte finger?

Corinne

Oooh, a latte finger.

Virginia

Will it foam the milk properly? I think so. And then I was thinking, I think my last one might be hand sanitizer because that just seems practical, right? Yeah, then you’re never caught off guard. 

Corinne

And you could drink it to get drunk.

Virginia

No, I’ll wait for you to fill up my champagne. Even though I can’t drink champagne, it gives me a migraine. I think I have no alcohol in my fingers for now, anyway. We’ll see. Well, that was delightful, and absolutely absurd.

Corinne

I hope everyone puts their answers in the comments. 

Virginia

We want to know what clothing item you’re inventing. We want to know what’s in your fingers. We want to know your screen time so we feel less ashamed. 

Corinne

Yes, please.

Virginia

I feel so good ours was the same. I really was worried I was going to be like double you or something.

Corinne

Oh, I thought I was going to be double you! You have children, you have to at least look up sometimes.

Virginia

Lets not talk about how I’m looking at my phone too much around my kids. Now you made it worse again!

Corinne

Oh God.

Virginia

But I feel like, okay, we’re in the same boat of too much phone.

Corinne

I’m realizing that I think my last Butter was also a salad, which is just makes me sound like a different kind of person than I am. But I want to recommend this salad that I’ve been eating from

Julia Turshen

’snew cookbook, and it’s just called “my usual chopped salad.” It has a really nice mustardy dressing, and then it’s chopped romaine and red cabbage, roasted almonds and grated carrots, chickpeas, feta and raisins. And it’s a really good combo. It’s very delicious.

And it’s also one of those things where, I usually have all that stuff on hand, and you can kind of tweak it based on what you do have on hand. So that has been a really good lunch for me the past couple of weeks. 

Virginia

I really need to make that one, that seems great. 

Corinne

Yeah, it’s delicious. It’s sweet, salty. It’s really good. 

Virginia

Okay, you’re inspiring me to make a salad at some point soon. I love that for me as a goal. 

Corinne

Yeah, it’s good. What’s your Butter? 

Virginia

My Butter is my new heavy weights that I’m lifting. I’m not on Corinne’s power lifting train yet, or probably ever, because you have to go to the gym for that and I don’t like gyms. But I did recently upgrade my weights.

Mass Moves Mass

Corinne Fay

·

February 21, 2023

Read full story

And I’m going to use numbers, so content warning, if the numbers are not good for you. I don’t know how to talk about this without numbers. Do I need to use numbers? Maybe I don’t. 

Corinne

I think you can use numbers. 

Virginia

Okay. When I first started strength training, I was using two pounds and five pounds, and then after a few months, I upgraded to ten. I mean, not upgraded. I still used the fives, but I added in some tens. And then after, like, a year and a half of that, I finally worked up my nerve to say to Lauren Leavell (whose videos I do every week): “Should I have heavier weights than 10?” And she was basically like, Dear God, yes. You can do more at this point.

And so I added in some eights that have mostly replaced what I was doing with the fives. And then I got 15s and 20s. And, man, it is hard, but fun! It’s so much more fun to lift hard weights. It’s weird!

Corinne

Um yeah. Lifting heavy weights is fun.

Virginia

It’s very fun. And I was really surprised I didn’t die! Like, I lifted three times last week, and I was fine. I didn’t throw out my back. I was sore the next day, but not like what-did-I-do sore. Just like, oh I used muscles sore. It was super satisfying. I know there’s so many strength trainers and power lifters in the audience, and you’re all just like, “Welcome, Virginia. Thank you for realizing the obvious.”

But I just want to say: Physical strength didn’t feel available to me for most of my life. I think especially if you’ve had like back issues, there are ways in which we can start to ascribe to a narrative that our bodies are fragile. 

And it’s interesting to realize that this isn’t for everyone. All bodies are good bodies, but for me, pushing myself to do something harder has actually not only made me feel stronger, but actually made my body feel sturdier, if that makes sense.

Corinne

Makes complete sense. 

Virginia

So it’s really wild. I mean, I’m very new into it, but we’ll see how it keeps going. But yeah, I mean, I am a pretty injury prone person, so I am a little anxious, but I’m going to keep going. I think it’s good. 

Corinne

That’s awesome, yeah. 

Virginia

So if that anyone else is out there with your five pound and your ten pounds or whatever, you could probably do more than you think, and that’s a cool feeling. And also, no moral obligation to ever do any of it. It’s fine. You don’t have to like it.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

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