Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! It's time for your October Extra Butter! 

This month we’re diving into some big, hard questions, like:

How do you mourn big body changes?

What happens if your body size really is the reason you can’t do something you used to love?

Does the “Health At Every Size” framework ever fail fat people?

When is it systemic oppression and when is it just…physics?

Or…do we all just need a Fat Day?

If you are already an Extra Butter subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon. To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page. 

Otherwise, to hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to join Extra Butter. It's just $99 per year, and is the hands down best way to keep Burnt Toast an ad- and sponsor-free space. 

PS. Don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) 

Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Virginia

This is a very complicated question. I feel like we need a lot of caveats, but I don’t even know what the caveats should be. But it’s a complicated one. 

Corinne

It is. I’ve been thinking about the question a lot like since the first time I read it. 

Virginia

Same. I guess I’ll just say—I encourage conversation in the comment section. We will probably not get all of this right, but we are going to do our best. 

So this listener writes, 

I’ve been pretty immersed in the anti-diet, Health at Every Size space for about five years now. I’ve listened to hundreds of hours of podcasts and read tons of books and articles. I follow lots of body positive influencers on social media, and yet I have never seen the issue I’m facing addressed. I have been doing manual labor full time for a decade now. I started doing trail work, then wildland firefighting, and now I’ve been a climbing arborist for eight years. When I realized five years ago, I had a disordered relationship with food, I thought properly nourishing my body would make me better at my job. Instead, I gained so much weight—I went up seven sizes in just two years—that I can no longer safely do my job.

I’ve spent the last decade building towards a career that is no longer doable for me because of my body. I thought if I remained active, I would build up even more strength and keep up with the demands of the job as I gained weight. It hasn’t worked that way. I didn’t realize just how much more difficult it is to move in a larger body. Sure, there are many people in larger bodies doing physically demanding activities like rock climbing, running, skiing, you name it. But I haven’t seen anyone in a larger body doing these activities as a job. It’s a fun recreational activity for them. It’s totally different when it’s your job to perform physically demanding tasks at certain speed and level of expertise expected of a professional.

It’s easy to criticize the systemic oppression that exists in our fatphobic world, but not everything that is inaccessible to people in larger bodies is a construct of our society, right? Trees are organic living things. There is nothing anyone can do to make a tree stronger and able to hold my body weight. It’s just physics. Gear companies could increase the breaking strength of equipment, but it doesn’t matter if the tree itself is the weakest link in the system.

I just can’t stop thinking about all the things I can’t do now, in addition to my job. I can’t hike through a slot canyon or go caving ever again. I can’t do flying trapeze. I can’t do acro yoga. None of these are systemic things that can be changed. It’s just how the natural world exists and or physics. These are all things I love doing or really want to do, but now I can’t.

I’m not even really sure I have a question, I guess this is more of a complaint. The anti-diet Health at Every Size space led me to believe I could still be active and do the activities and job that I love. It has not been true for me. I feel like I was tricked and now I have to give up a career I love and start over from scratch because all of my work experience is relevant to jobs I can’t do.

So, Corinne. Can you just answer that real quick, thanks.

Corinne

I really feel for this person and I feel like this is really sad and hard. There isn’t a quick and easy solution.

Virginia

Same. And I’ve certainly not experienced this. You can be a writer at any body size, I will say confidently. This is not a career path that requires any physical body at all, to be honest. But I think anyone whose body changes—which is everybody—but anyone who experiences dramatic body changes, encounters certain aspects of their life that don’t feel the same as they once did. 

Corinne

It’s definitely true. 

Virginia

And that’s a factor of size, aging—so many things. I don’t get off the floor as easily as I used to. I think it is important to name and grieve for these changes.

Corinne

I do think there is a lot of grieving that comes up for this kind of stuff, and at the same time, I think it’s okay for there to be things that you can’t do that you want to do. I think everyone experiences that on a certain level. Not just fat people. If we’re going to think about natural body diversity, you wouldn’t tell a short person “you need to change your body in order to be able to do a certain job.”

Virginia

Simone Biles is just never going to be a WNBA player. 

Corinne

Well, okay, don’t get me started. Have you seen that video where she can jump like—

Virginia

Okay, fine. Simone Biles can do literally anything. I forgot about the jumping.

Corinne

She probably would be really good in the NBA.

Virginia

As we’ve discussed before, Olympic athletes are their own conversation. They are superheroes and we are not in that family.

But setting that aside, yes, there are certain sports where certain body traits are an asset. And that doesn’t mean you’re not going to do them at all, but it does mean you’re maybe not going to do them professionally or at a certain level. That can be devastating. Sometimes there are systemic barriers that need to change to make a space more inclusive. And sometimes, I think often, it’s a mix.

But one thing I was thinking about in reading the question is that I don’t know that we can always say, in a very black and white way, “Is this a systemic change or is this a limit of body?” It can be a bit of both. There are some, like airplane seats can just fucking be bigger. Obviously, that one is systemic change. But when it comes to this question of what can our bodies do and what limits can we push ourselves to? I think that’s often a combination of many things, not just size, not just systemic barriers. So many factors go into that.

Corinne

This person is really focused on all the things they can’t do because of their body size. And I wanted to mention that there are things that are great about having a bigger body and ways that people in bigger bodies have advantages. So that’s something you could think about. You have more body mass, which can make moving things easier. Probably lots of other things.

·Virginia

Is there any part of this you relate to? Anything where you’re like, oh, that doesn’t feel accessible for me anymore? I mean, I know you weren’t an arborist. 

Corinne

I definitely relate but I don’t know if I have a specific example. I think for me, sometimes it’s more the mental load. Having to consider whether or not something can hold your weight is really hard. But there’s a piece of this that’s like, “Now I can’t do my job,” and I don’t think I’ve really experienced that.

Virginia

That’s another layer, for sure. I mean financial ramifications, something you’ve invested years in training for, that doesn’t feel is available now—that’s really hard. 

For me, this kind of thing comes up with cardiovascular fitness for sure. That is something that has changed for me. And, it’s something I could absolutely improve and not change my weight. To be clear, there are lots of fat people in great cardiovascular health. I am not one of them. So that’s something that, in my mind, gets sort of linked together. And it’s one that sometimes I miss—not that I ever was never like an amazing runner had amazing stamina, but it was better than it is currently. 

Corinne

That’s a good point too, though. If there are specific physical abilities that you’re missing, like mobility or cardiovascular stuff—those are things you could focus on improving without weight loss.

Virginia

In the body you have now. 

Corinne

You could do some mobility exercises or training. 

Virginia

Agreed. Okay, I also want to talk about this piece where this person says they feel “tricked” by Health at Every Size. I think there often is a misconception, or a misperception of HAES, that it’s saying literally everybody will be healthy and be able to do everything, no matter what size they are. We can link to the episode we did with Ani and Angel from ASDAH who are the keepers of the Health at Every Size framework, and really get into what that means. I think they’ve done a lot of work to rework it and be more conscious of that ableism. But I do think the influencer version of HAES is very, “Look at me, I can rock climb in my fat body.” “Look at me, I can do all of that,” you know? And that is frustrating, 

Corinne

I think maybe one of the things I feel that the most around is travel. I see fat people traveling, and I’m like, wait, how are you doing that? Like, are you scoping out all these places before you go? Is someone doing that for you? 

Virginia

Do you have an endless budget for first class? 

Corinne

Do you have a partner flying with you so it’s less of an issue? I don’t know. 

Virginia

There are a lot of folks not naming the privilege required to do certain things in a fat body. There are certain privileges that make the barriers easier to surmount, which is important to talk about. But I get so frustrated because when I do media interviews about this stuff, people will always say, “Wait, are you saying everybody’s healthy?” And it’s such a twisting of what we’re trying to say.

We’re not saying everybody will be healthy at any body weight. We’re saying everyone has the right to pursue health in the body they have now, at whatever size they are, without also pursuing weight loss. Which is something quite different, right?

We’re not discounting that people in all body sizes can have complicated health stories, and we’re not discounting that being in a larger body can be connected to certain health conditions. But for a long time, it felt so radical just to say, basically, that fat people can be healthy. That felt like such a radical point that people were really stuck on emphasizing and explaining that, to the exclusion of many people’s lived experience.

I think the job thing is just really real and really sucks. I know nothing about being an arborist. I am trusting this person’s analysis of that industry. I don’t know even how being an arborist is structured in terms of the companies. Is this a field you can stay in in a managerial position where you are not the one climbing the trees, but you are the one coordinating from the ground? I would be curious to learn more about what the work involves. If this is your passion, what are ways to stay tied to this passion, even if the literal work you do has to change?

And there might be still a lot of like satisfaction in doing a different version of it, which I think happens for lots of different reasons in lots of different careers, that you end up morphing into a different focus or a different role within the industry or something.

Corinne

I think that’s really true. There probably would come a point at which you could not or did not want to be climbing trees.

Virginia

I would assume aging plays a role in that as well.

Corinne

That’s what I mean. 

Virginia

This is a career with a shelf life anyway. But you have hit the shelf life much earlier, perhaps, than you thought you were going to, which sucks.  

But when it comes to doing slot canyons and caving and flying trapeze and all of that—I don’t want to discount that those are things you love. And I wish you could still do things you love. I do wonder if these are systemic or physical limits. Can you really not do flying trapeze? Or do we need to design a better trapeze? I think here we’re getting into some questions that are less, like, “it’s just physics,” and more, maybe your body doesn’t feel safe and welcomed in those spaces. In an acrobatic yoga class.

It reminds me of that question we had a few months ago about riding roller coasters. And Corinne, you said, “Well, what else can you do at the fair that you do love if you’re not going to go on the roller coasters?” I just think sometimes, we both need to grieve—this is something I really enjoy and it doesn’t feel accessible to me anymore. And there can be something exciting about thinking, well, what else do I love? What else would I love? What else could I do? What new thing haven’t I tried? Because maybe it seemed less accessible in your smaller body, or it just wasn’t on your radar at that point.

Corinne

I am 100 percent certain you can hike through a slot canyon. Maybe not the tiniest slot canyon ever, but I live in New Mexico and I’ve yet to encounter a slot canyon that I have not been able to fit through.

Corinne in a slot canyon on the left, and two other slot canyons Corinne has walked through

Virginia

I need to know what a slot canyon is to really understand this question. 

Corinne

Okay, it’s basically a canyon that’s kind of narrow on both sides. And I’ve been to a bunch of slot canyons and I’ve never found one that I haven’t fit through. And I’m, like, pretty fat. 

Virginia

Theres this hike near me called the Lemon Squeeze.

Corinne

Oh, that sounds terrifying. 

Virginia

Yes and please know I have a massive heights phobia. So these things are not for me, but I did it anyway at one point. So you’re going up these tiny ladders on the side of a cliff, through increasingly narrow tunnels in the cliff. And the final one you do, it’s called the lemon squeeze, because you do have to push and lever yourself out of this tiny hole at the end. And I definitely was like, “This is not built for my body. I will be stuck in this thing.” But I got through it. 

Corinne

That sounds horrible. 

Virginia

So I can understand there might be some hikes that are impenetrable. But when we’re talking about aggressive outdoor activity, that might be true for many reasons. Access to extreme outdoor sports requires so many intersecting privileges.

Corinne

There may be some slot canyons that you can no longer go through. I think there are also probably a lot that you could go through. And it might take more research and planning to get to them. Like, maybe you need to plan a trip to Utah. I just think there are options. I’ve also seen fat people doing acro yoga. And it may be harder. It may be a matter of doing some training beforehand or starting at a lower level.

Virginia

And having patience with yourself about what this looks like.

Corinne

And let’s focus on stuff that does feel better or easier or different in a bigger body. Like, I don’t know, swimming, floating, being in the water. What feels good in your body now? 

Virginia

I think that’s really, really right. I think that’s hard to do. And it sounds like this is a person just still in the grief stage, which is really real. But I think there is something on the other side of the grief stage.

Corinne

I feel like the conclusion is, yes, it totally makes sense that you’re going to be grieving these changes. That’s really valid. It does suck. Some of it might be the natural world. Some of it might be society. And hopefully, you will get to a point where also you are able to find joy in doing things in your body as it is. Whether those are new things or old things.

Virginia

I think there’s a little piece of this that is always our own mindset, as well. Which is not to blame you. We don’t need to blame ourselves for that, but we have been conditioned in this culture to understand our bodies in certain ways and then when we come up against these new limits, that old programming is going to be really loud and telling you it’s all your body’s fault. And that’s something we have to be aware of. 

Corinne

One thing we didn’t really touch on is that this person does say “I did have a disordered relationship with food.” And I’m thinking of the roller coaster letter, I guess. Maybe you’re not acknowledging how much of an effect that disordered eating had on your life before. And you don’t have that piece of things now.

Virginia

So this person did send me a follow up with more details on that piece. Do you want to read the follow up, and then we’ll talk about this chunk of it? 

Corinne

This feels all the more difficult for me because I didn’t have a very fraught relationship with food before I found intuitive eating. I just always found it very difficult to eat whenever I was depressed, so I would end up losing some weight if I fell into a depressive episode.

When I wasn’t depressed, I had a pretty normal and healthy relationship with food and existed in a small body my entire life. Perhaps I was unintentionally restricting food even when I wasn’t depressed, but it never felt that way. When I wasn’t depressed, I never dieted or purposefully restricted food. I never counted calories. I never felt the need to exercise. I never worried about the size of my body.

The only thing I changed is that I made sure to keep eating enough food when I was depressed. When I hear other people talk about coping with the difficulties of existing in a larger body, they always talk about how it’s still better than what they had to do to exist in a smaller body. I cannot make this comparison, since existing in a smaller body, until a few years ago, was easy and took no intentional effort for me. It’s certainly not the case anymore, but it’s hard to accept my body now, when in the past I existed in a smaller body without any problems.

Virginia

Okay, so I’m going to say this with a lot of love. It was a problem that you couldn’t eat when you were depressed. You were existing in your smaller body but clearly—given what you are telling us about what’s happened to your body since—you were existing in that smaller body because you were struggling with depression severe enough that you were not eating. And not eating for long enough periods of time to result in significant weight loss or weight suppression. And you deserve to not have that. You deserve to be nourished when you are depressed. 

Corinne

It sort of sounds like they’re saying that they preferred existing in a smaller body with severe bouts of depression to existing in a larger body and nourishing themselves.

Virginia

Yes, yes. And presumably still experiencing the depression. They don’t say the depression is gone, but they’re managing the depression differently—and I would say with a more health promoting strategy— by eating during their depression.

So I understand why you might not be connecting to this experience when other people articulate it, because their characterization may feel more extreme than what you think you did.

I can understand that it didn’t feel like work to you because you had the depression creating these episodes of not eating. So you didn’t have to choose to diet. You weren’t walking around wanting to be eating and not eating. I understand that the depression was suppressing all of that. But you were still functionally restricting. Your body was still working really hard to keep you small, you were still putting your body through a lot in order to stay small. You didn’t experience it as work to stay small because you were experiencing it as a facet of your depression.

Corinne

Yeah, and also not eating enough food to fuel your body, whether or not you felt this way or remember it this way, does have an effect on your systems. Your brain doesn’t function as well. You can’t build muscle. Whether or not you felt those effects, they were probably happening.

Virginia

I would be curious to hear more about what the depression feels like now that they are being nourished through it. To be clear, we have the disclaimer on every episode, Corinne and I are not doctors. We are not mental health professionals. We are not diagnosing or treating your struggles here.

But I am just curious to know: Does nourishing yourself through your depression helps in the management of your depression? Because if so, that’s something to really value and hold on to and be proud that you’re doing now as a way of taking care of yourself. It’s something you really deserve. 

Corinne

It just sounds like this person was in a place of really missing the way things were, and that’s really valid. You’re allowed to feel grief and anger and whatever about things changing and hopefully you will at some point in the future find some positives to this experience. 

Virginia

I also want to say, I think this letter is very much framed in “I don’t hear this conversation happening. My struggle is not being reflected.” And I think that’s true to a degree, because, as we talked about, I do think the way Health at Every Size gets marketed often leaves out this piece of things. There are realities of fatness that just aren’t talked about. 

And at the same time, I have heard so many people long for their smaller bodies, for so many reasons. I’ve heard so many people say, well, maybe it wasn’t actually that hard to eat that way to stay small. That is a classic response to becoming bigger and struggling to adjust to that, to start to romanticize we didn’t have to do that much. I only had to not eat for days or weeks at a time when I was depressed, in your case. I wasn’t dieting, but I was just making better choices. Or, as long as I wasn’t dieting, but I was eating enough protein. There are so many versions of this.

It kind of comes down to the same thing, which is what you’re dealing with right now feels really hard. Is really hard. You’re grieving a lot. And so you start to look back at old pictures, you start to kind of recast what was before, to feel like, well, that was the easier path. And in a fatphobic society, having the smaller body was the easier path in some ways. But it doesn’t mean it was actually easier inside your body in terms of what you were putting yourself through.

Corinne

I have two thoughts right now. One is like, it’s almost like we should call Health at Every Size, Unhealth at Every Size. Or Existing at Every Size Should Be Allowed. People in thin bodies have tons of “unhealthy” behaviors that they’re allowed to do, and fat people don’t. 

The other thing I keep thinking about is this conversation about “Health at Every Size let me down” does feel very related to some of the intentional weight loss influencer stuff. It’s making me think about Rosey Beeme. 

Virginia

Yes, to be clear, we’re not equating you with her. But I think it is something to think about. In a previous Extra Butter episode, we talked about this current trend, particularly fueled right now by Wegovy and Ozempic and everything, of fat influencers losing weight and talking about how they experience their bodies differently now, but framing it as if their bodies were really wrong before, because their bodies faced limitations when they were bigger, because they had mobility issues, or the fitting into seats thing. Like experiencing that as like, “Well, thank God I solved this.”

As opposed to, “Wow, wouldn’t it be better for fat people everywhere if we made systemic change?” And what I do with my own personal body is my business, but is not actually the narrative we should be centering. So that was an exhausting episode, and if you missed it, you should definitely go back and listen. But with all the content warnings that there is a lot of explicit fatphobia in the posts we talk about.

And we’re still seeing this. We’re still seeing so many influencers getting on that train and making that point, and it is really hard to untangle. I think you are allowed to do what you want with your own body, but stop pretending that you getting thinner is benefiting anyone other than you.

Corinne

That’s also the thing that’s unsaid here. You could pursue intentional weight loss. That is an option. 

Virginia

And then I guess the layer is you could pursue intentional weight loss that might make your arborist career last a few years longer that could buy you a few more years in this field you love. And I don’t want to discount that that might be really powerful and important for you. 

And: What would it feel like to go back to the level of restriction that was required to do that? 

Corinne

Yeah, it might be very miserable. 

Virginia

It might be very miserable. 

Corinne

And it might not be permanent. It usually isn’t. 

Virginia

And, if you are going to do that, though, what I also want to say is: You can do that and still show up for fat people. We will not cast you out into the darkness. These are survival strategies. And everyone has to decide for themselves what survival strategies they can live with.

But just make sure you’re still showing up for fat people.

Corinne

I would definitely encourage this person to try to just find something that makes you feel better in your body. Whether it’s like swimming or—

Virginia

Corinne really wants you to come to a Fat Swim.

Corinne

There has got to be something where you feel okay being embodied.

Virginia

You know, what I’m also thinking is this person doesn’t sound like they have a lot of fat community. There’s a really sweet post on Instagram right now with Mia Kaplan, who is the star of Empire Waist, this new film that we  just talked about on the podcast. And they are saying something like, “I need my fat community. I just text my friends and say, ‘I need a fat day.’” Like, it’s so cute. I was like, I need a fat day!

Corinne

That is really cute. 

Virginia

It’s really cute. And it sounds like you need a fat day. Because you need to be with people who you’re not comparing yourself to constantly in terms of like, oh, they can do more because they’re thinner. You need to be with people who are going to be safe, feel safe for your body. You need a fat day. You need to be reminded that this is a whole community you are part of it and you are valued. We all need a fat day. Just sounds delightful.

And who knows, maybe there are other fat arborists in the Burnt Toast community, and I really hope they jump into the comments. 

Corinne

Yeah, that would be very cool.

Virginia

Can we get a fat arborist subthread going please? That would be amazing.

Corinne

Do you know this person fat as the sea on Instagram? I feel like they would be a good resource. I think they do fat embodiment workshop kind of stuff. And I think they do just a bunch of stuff about feeling into your body.

Virginia

They call it so-fat-ics, like somatics. That’s very cute. 

I’ve shouted her out before but

Brianna Campos

, who isbodyimagewithBri on Instagramand Substack, talks a lot about the grieving process of this and also is very upfront about her own like mobility limitations and the way she has to navigate this in the world as a fat person. She’s also been doing a lot on just starting to date again as a fat person. So circling back to last month’s episode, it’s pretty fun to follow Bri right now and her cute date looks.

Well, I hope this was helpful. We are all rooting for you. I know you wrote this feeling like you were articulating something that no one is really talking about. I hope we can be talking about it. And I also hope you feel less alone, and especially like comment section, like, let’s go. 

Corinne

Personally, I would love to hire a fat arborist.

Virginia

I have a lot of trees! I live in the woods. 

Corinne

My butter is something that I’ve mentioned before, but I want to give it a shout out, because it’s really making my life good, which is the Oddbird towels. 

Virginia

Oh, yes, you linked these from Big Undies recently when you did your Maine packing list. I gotta get these towels.

As discussed, last week I drove back to New Mexico, where I live, from Maine, where I grew up. For the past few years, I have driven out to my mom’s house for an indefinite visit, sometimes in winter, sometimes in summer. I bring my dog and work from my mom’s basement while I eat seafood and go swimming and help my mom fix the screen door and stock the chest freezer…

Corinne

Oddbird is this company that does sleepwear and loungewear. I think all of it is Turkish textiles. So the towels are Turkish towels. They’re very thin, and they dry quickly and easily. I think they’re 78 inches long, so they would fit a lot of people, but maybe not everyone. And they roll up pretty small. So now I’m just bringing one in my suitcase every time I go anywhere. It’s just so nice to have—

Virginia

A towel that’s gonna fit in any freaking hotel room? I just have such rage about hotel room towels. I am paying so much to be there!

Corinne

And it’s one thing, if you’re staying in a hotel room alone. Like, okay, fine, I don’t need it. 

Virginia

No one is going to see you walk around naked. 

Corinne

But I just went on a weekend trip with some friends and we stayed at an Airbnb. And I was like, “You know what, I’m just going to bring my towel because I don’t want to be walking through the communal hallway with my butt hanging out.”

Virginia

It’s so aggravating. I understand that industrial laundry is probably really expensive and blah, blah, blah, but there should always be an option for bigger towels. Even if you’re not putting them in every room. And also just put them in every room! No one is mad to have a big towel. This underserves nobody.

Corinne

And I think at this point there are a bunch of sort of bigger towel options, but I just find these are really nice and also pretty small.

Virginia

The packability is really nice, because I have the ones from Towel that we featured on the podcast a year ago in my bathroom. And they’re delicious. They’re big and fleecy, and you’re just like, wrapped up in this cozy thing. But I would never pack it because it’s really heavy. So these are a great option.

How are their clothes? Have you tried Oddbird clothes?

Corinne

I have tried their loungewear and it’s pretty nice. And sizing-wise, I think they go up to a 5x.

Virginia

Do I need a mumu? Probably? I’m seeing some cute pajamas, too.

Corinne

Yeah, the textiles are really nice. 

Virginia

This is very exciting. Excellent Butter.

Corinne

What’s your better?

Virginia

My butter has a little bit of a sad backstory, which is I am temporarily giving up Diet Coke on weekdays and seltzer because of my acid reflux. I’ve been working with this amazing vocal coach, Rachel Rynick, who is a Burnt Toast listener as well.  Ever since I recorded the audiobook of Fat Talk, and actually even before, I’ve been struggling with hoarseness and coughing and periodic laryngitis. Which is a problem for someone who records a weekly podcast. 

So last February, I started working with Rachel, who has been amazing, and we figured out so many strategies. I don’t know if y’all can hear it, but when I listen to old episodes, I can really hear the difference in how my voice is improving, quality wise. So it’s really great.

But we took off the summer and then when I came back at the start of September, I was like, oh man, it’s all back. The hoarseness is back, this raspiness, needing to clear my throat more during recordings. And we’ve really dealt with a lot of other things. So she was like, “I’m wondering about your reflux, and maybe the carbonation is a factor, because it’s very acidic.”

So I am trying to go Sunday to Thursday, because those would encompass our recording days, without carbonation. This is the first week. To be clear, this is not a diet. I am cutting out diet soda and seltzer with aspartame in it. I’m cutting out aspartame temporarily.

But I really struggled the first day, because I do need that extra hit of caffeine. And so now getting to my butter—sorry, that was so much backstory! My butter is Harney and Sons hot cinnamon spice tea, which is a black tea, so it has a little bit of caffeine in it. And it is replacing my morning Diet Coke. It is delicious. It’s a little spicy. I love it. 

Corinne

Wow, that sounds really good.

Virginia

I’m cautiously optimistic. I also drop in a Throat Coat Tea as well. Because why not? I don’t like the taste of Throat Coat Tea because I’ve drunk so much of it while dealing with all these vocal issues, so the cinnamon spice really covers it up. But I’m still getting whatever slippery elm benefits. So this is my new little tea hack. 

Corinne

Wait, so in the morning, you were normally drinking coffee and Diet Coke? 

Virginia

Yes. I have a small cup of coffee in the morning, which, because I have children, I rarely get to finish. So I have like, four ounces of coffee in the morning, and then when I would sit down at my desk. I would have a nice cold Diet Coke, like, around 9am yeah, to kick off Productivity Virginia. But. I’m trying to do without it. 

Corinne

Can I tell you the one thing that really made a difference for my acid reflux?

Virginia

Is it going to make me even sadder than giving up Diet Coke?

Corinne

It was giving up coffee. 

Virginia

No, Corinne.

Corinne

I’m sorry. I still have coffee as a treat sometimes, but when I drink coffee versus when I don’t is like night and day.

Virginia

I truly don’t know if I would love my children?

Corinne

I know it’s horrible. Coffee is delicious, it’s a wonderful thing.

Virginia

And it’s just, I just need that warm, cozy feeling. I guess I could try the tea. I mean, this is black tea. It still has some caffeine. 

Corinne

Well for me, it’s not the caffeine. Because decaf coffee has the same effect on me.

Virginia

Okay, so we think caffeine is okay. Again, we are not doctors. Consult your own specialist. 

I’m also going to say, right now I don’t need a lot of unsolicited acid reflux advice. I’ve been managing acid reflux since I was a skinny 14 year old! So it is not a weight-linked condition for me. It is just a way my body is made. And it is possible that a lifelong Diet Coke addiction is playing a role. So yeah, here we are, cinnamon spiced tea. That’s what I’ve got for you. 

Corinne

It sounds delicious, and I’m excited to hear how it works. 

Virginia

It is delicious. I will report back and also shout out to Rachel, my vocal coach, who has made a lot of difference even with me drinking Diet Coke. Sometimes during our vocal sessions.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!