Psychedelics Today

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In this episode, hosts Kyle and Joe interview Balázs Szigeti, PhD and David Erritzoe, PhD to discuss the self-blinded microdosing study in collaboration with the Imperial College London.
In this episode, they explore the self-blinding study and it’s pros and limitations, with the aim to collect data on microdosing and its possible benefits.

3 Key Points:

1. Microdosing (LSD) has the least amount of research so far among research on drugs like Psilocybin, MDMA and Ketamine.
2. This microdosing study includes a procedure on how self experimenters can implement placebo control. This will help determine whether microdosers feel benefits due to the placebo effect or because of the pharmacological action of the microdose.
3. Just because microdosing may have a placebo effect (the way a user feels while taking it) it may actually have benefits that one cannot necessarily ‘feel’ (users may become more creative, have better problem solving skills, etc).

Support the show

• Patreon
• Leave us a review on iTunes
• Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc
• Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community.

Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes About Balázs

• Balazs attended his undergrad in the UK at Imperial College and studied Theoretical Physics
• He moved to Scotland to get his PhD in Computational Neuroscience
• He became interested in psychedelics via the Global Drug Survey
• He was doing MDMA research and then the microdosing project came to him

About David

• He is a medical doctor and works in clinical psychology doing research
• He does brain imaging and his background has been in addiction, depression and schizophrenia
• He did his postdoc at Imperial and worked with Robert Carhart Harris
• He worked in a clinical trial working with people of treatment resistant depression
• He is currently working on an online survey for microdosing

Psychedelic Medicine

• MDMA for PTSD is the most advanced in terms of available scientific evidence for psychedelic medicine
• There is already a big gap in psilocybin vs MDMA for treatment
• There isn't much research on microdosing yet
  • In order to do research on microdosing, you'd have to bring in a ‘patient’ and have them in the lab for many hours at a time, very frequently, and it's not practical

The Microdosing Study

• In this microdosing study, they are testing cognitive function
  • The user will have to fill out a questionnaire throughout the duration of the microdose
• There were a lot of things, very political for the downfall of psychedelic science
• When the double-blind method was introduced for science, it used methods that would have compromised the ‘setting’ of taking psychedelics
• There is a manual that the users have to follow for the setup process
  • Its a semi-randomized process where they take the microdose over 4 weeks and it may be either the psychedelic or a placebo
  • It works on a method of a dose hidden in a capsule assigned to a QR code, where the user doesn't know what they take until the end of the study
• This is a study inviting people that plan to microdose a blotter based psychedelic
  • Its a hands-off study of observation, based on a users own plan on taking the substance

Limitations of the Study

• Its half-way between a clinical study and an observational study
• They aren't sending the users the LSD, they are just providing the platform for the users to share their experience on
• In this trial, the flaw is that the research team doesn't know the dose size of the blotter the user takes, it could start as a 100mg, more, less. Its a variable that cannot be controlled
  • The fix would be to have the LSD sent to the lab, tested for dose size, and then sent back to the user (anonymously), but since it's illegal it cannot be done
  • It's also hard to determine even distribution of a blotter into microdose size
  • They don't know if the user is cutting the blotter paper like a pie or in squares
• Also, because the drug is being bought on the black market, they wont know if there are adulterants in the drug unless the user tests the drug themselves
  • David and Balázs also say that based on current findings, most LSD tested is pure LSD, where a drug like MDMA is more common to contain an adulterant
• They do have plans to extend the study to include plant based psychedelics and volumetric dosing

What is a Psychedelic Microdose?

• Psychedelic microdosing is not the same as Pharmacological microdosing
• A microdose in pharmacological context is 1/100th of a dose, where a psychedelic microdose is more like 1/10th of a dose

Is Microdosing Worth it?

• People like David Nichols and Ben Sessa think microdosing is pointless
  • It could be that microdosing is a glorified placebo effect
• Most people who are microdosing have had previous experience with psychedelics
  • People are doing it because they believe there is a benefit that comes from it
• The placebo control is the most important component of this self-blinded method
• People say that microdosing stimulates their creativity, but creativity is hard to measure
• One thing they could measure is personality through a personality assessment
  • One thing that has been studied is an increase in the ‘Openness’ personality trait after psychedelic use
  • The flaw is that a personality test is a person answering questions about themselves

Current Findings

• The benefit of this study, is it doesn't take people out of their natural, personal setting
• Based on the feedback already received, the users are getting their guess right only half of the time, on whether it is the microdose or the placebo
• Just because microdosing may have a placebo effect (the way they feel while taking it) it may actually have benefits (users may be more creative, have better problem solving skills, etc).
• Homeopathy is widely believed to be a placebo effect in the scientific community, but the homeopathy is continuing to grow

Links

Self-blinding Microdose Study

About Balázs Szigeti, PhD

Dr. Balazs Szigeti has studied theoretical physics at Imperial College, but turned towards neuroscience for his PhD studies at the University of Edinburgh. His main work is about the behavioural neuroscience of invertebrates, but he has a diverse scientific portfolio that includes computational neuroscience and driving forward the OpenWorm open science initiative. Balazs is also the editor of the Dose of Science blog that is published in collaboration with the Drugreporter website. Dose of Science discusses and critically assesses scientific studies about recreational drugs. Recently Balazs has started a collaboration with the Global Drug Survey to quantitatively compare the dose of recreational users of various drugs with the scientific literature.

About David Erritzoe, PhD

Dr. David Erritzoe is qualified as a medical doctor from Copenhagen University Medical School and currently holds an Academic Clinical Lectureship in Psychiatry at Imperial College London. Alongside his clinical training in medicine/psychiatry, David has been involved in psychopharmacological research, using brain-imaging techniques such as PET and MRI. He has conducted post-doc imaging research in the neurobiology of addictions and major depression. Together with Prof Nutt and Dr Carhart-Harris he is also investigating the neurobiology and therapeutic potential of MDMA and classic psychedelics.

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In this episode, Joe interviews Nathan Sepeda, a Research Coordinator at Johns Hopkins. Joe and Nathan cover topics on 5-MEO-DMT research and survey studies, the difference between synthetic and toad sourced 5-MEO-DMT, the sustainability of the Bufo Alvarius toad, and the benefits of a proper facilitator.

3 Key Points:

1. 5-MEO-DMT is starting to gain traction in the research world. The conversation continues on whether the synthetic 5-MEO-DMT experience is any different from a 5-MEO-DMT experience sourced from the toad venom.
2. As the popularity of 5-MEO-DMT increases, concerns about the wellbeing and sustainability of the Bufo Alvarius toad also increases.
3. Proper facilitation has been shown to affect a person's experience on a substance like 5-MEO-DMT. The use of a practitioner, finding the substance from a reputable source, and integration all play a critical role in the user's experience.

Support the show

• Patreon
• Leave us a review on iTunes
• Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc
• Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community.

Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes 5-MEO-DMT

• Joe found out about Nathan Sepeda and the work being done on 5-MEO-DMT after Johns Hopkins released a poster on 5-MEO-DMT
• Alan Davis put together a survey about people's 5-MEO-DMT experiences
• Half of the use was recreational, and then the other half of survey participants used more of a therapeutic approach set and setting including a sitter and integration
  • The study found that the more structured the 5-MEO-DMT experience was around set and setting, the more often participants reported a more mystical experience as well as a lower likelihood of having a difficult experience
  • The survey only looked at synthetic 5-MEO-DMT
  • Using 5-MEO-DMT from a toad also runs the risk of the other toad venom constituents
• Joe said the first time he heard about data on 5-MEO-DMT was at the Oakland Psychedelic Science Conference in 2017
  • Stan Grof had a keynote saying that 5-MEO-DMT was the future of psychiatry

Toad Conservation

• The Bufo Alvarius toad's population is increasingly declining
  • Joe says he knows someone who lives on the Mexican border in the Sonoran desert, and he would have toads jump into his house all the time
  • He doesn't even see them anymore
  • Joe also mentions the toads flocking to the UV street lights, and people scooping them up or even running them over
  • "How do we do less harm to living things and treat our environment better?" - Joe

Nathan's Role at Hopkins

• Nathan is the Research Coordinator of Psychedelic Studies at Johns Hopkins
• He works as an Assistant Facilitator (sitter) for the psychoactive drug sessions
• He is involved in Psilocybin studies (currently the depression study)
• He says he is grateful to be a part of the research, seeing people change in a matter of days from the help of the substances
• Nathan has a background in Psychology and Neuroscience
• Mary Cosimano is the primary facilitator for all of the studies at Johns Hopkins
  • His training consisted of mock sessions, ways to ask/answer questions, and overall hold the space
• A lot of people will describe their experience being the most spiritual experience of their life
• Joe asks about upset stomach with synthetic 5-MEO-DMT
  • Nathan responds saying they ask patients to eat a light breakfast, but he never really sees upset stomach with synthetic 5-MEO

Proper Facilitation

• The use of a practitioner and finding the substance from a reputable source are the two biggest factors in having a great experience, along with integration
  • Nathan says that these findings are preliminary but they are a great start to data on the substance and its use
• Joe says he is cautious about the religious affiliation people prescribe to their experience with these substances
  • It can get out of hand, there are "shamans" that taze people or throw buckets of cold water on their patients when they are on the substance
  • Waterboarding, sexual assault, all of these things speak to the value of screening practitioners
• Joe has heard about a facilitator using an extremely high amount of 5-MEO-DMT on his patients, far above the effective dose
• Joe mentions a story about a "shaman" who was to facilitate a session. The participant thought they were going to do standard DMT, and the shaman gave them 5-MEO-DMT instead (without the users consent)
  • Joe suggests that just because you know a reputable source for a substance, doesn't mean they are a good facilitator

Final Thoughts

• People can find information on the study at clinicaltrials.gov
• People can apply by contacting Nathan's team directly
  • They will have room for healthy volunteers in healthy volunteer studies in the future
  • They are currently working on "insight surveys" that are surveys asking people about their psychedelic experiences

Links

Hopkins Psychedelic Research Website

About Nathan Sepeda

Nathan Sepeda is an assistant facilitator (or guide) for psychoactive drug sessions and research coordinator for the Johns Hopkins Psychedelic Research Unit. Nathan earned an undergraduate degree from the University of Minnesota studying psychology and neuroscience. His interests in addiction and mood disorders, in combination with the promising research with psychedelics, have led Nathan to Dr. Roland Griffiths' lab. Nathan is involved in a number of projects investigating the effects of various psychedelic substances, including psilocybin, salvinorin-A, and 5-MeO-DMT.

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In this episode, Joe interviews Nathan Sepeda, a Research Coordinator at Johns Hopkins. Joe and Nathan cover topics on 5-MEO-DMT research and survey studies, the difference between synthetic and toad sourced 5-MEO-DMT, the sustainability of the Bufo Alvarius toad, and the benefits of a proper facilitator.

3 Key Points:

1. 5-MEO-DMT is starting to gain traction in the research world. The conversation continues on whether the synthetic 5-MEO-DMT experience is any different from a 5-MEO-DMT experience sourced from the toad venom.
2. As the popularity of 5-MEO-DMT increases, concerns about the wellbeing and sustainability of the Bufo Alvarius toad also increases.
3. Proper facilitation has been shown to affect a person’s experience on a substance like 5-MEO-DMT. The use of a practitioner, finding the substance from a reputable source, and integration all play a critical role in the user's experience.

Support the show

• Patreon
• Leave us a review on iTunes
• Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc
• Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community.

Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes 5-MEO-DMT

• Joe found out about Nathan Sepeda and the work being done on 5-MEO-DMT after Johns Hopkins released a poster on 5-MEO-DMT
• Alan Davis put together a survey about people’s 5-MEO-DMT experiences
• Half of the use was recreational, and then the other half of survey participants used more of a therapeutic approach set and setting including a sitter and integration
  • The study found that the more structured the 5-MEO-DMT experience was around set and setting, the more often participants reported a more mystical experience as well as a lower likelihood of having a difficult experience
  • The survey only looked at synthetic 5-MEO-DMT
  • Using 5-MEO-DMT from a toad also runs the risk of the other toad venom constituents
• Joe said the first time he heard about data on 5-MEO-DMT was at the Oakland Psychedelic Science Conference in 2017
  • Stan Grof had a keynote saying that 5-MEO-DMT was the future of psychiatry

Toad Conservation

• The Bufo Alvarius toad’s population is increasingly declining
  • Joe says he knows someone who lives on the Mexican border in the Sonoran desert, and he would have toads jump into his house all the time
  • He doesn't even see them anymore
  • Joe also mentions the toads flocking to the UV street lights, and people scooping them up or even running them over
  • “How do we do less harm to living things and treat our environment better?” - Joe

Nathan’s Role at Hopkins

• Nathan is the Research Coordinator of Psychedelic Studies at Johns Hopkins
• He works as an Assistant Facilitator (sitter) for the psychoactive drug sessions
• He is involved in Psilocybin studies (currently the depression study)
• He says he is grateful to be a part of the research, seeing people change in a matter of days from the help of the substances
• Nathan has a background in Psychology and Neuroscience
• Mary Cosimano is the primary facilitator for all of the studies at Johns Hopkins
  • His training consisted of mock sessions, ways to ask/answer questions, and overall hold the space
• A lot of people will describe their experience being the most spiritual experience of their life
• Joe asks about upset stomach with synthetic 5-MEO-DMT
  • Nathan responds saying they ask patients to eat a light breakfast, but he never really sees upset stomach with synthetic 5-MEO

Proper Facilitation

• The use of a practitioner and finding the substance from a reputable source are the two biggest factors in having a great experience, along with integration
  • Nathan says that these findings are preliminary but they are a great start to data on the substance and its use
• Joe says he is cautious about the religious affiliation people prescribe to their experience with these substances
  • It can get out of hand, there are “shamans” that taze people or throw buckets of cold water on their patients when they are on the substance
  • Waterboarding, sexual assault, all of these things speak to the value of screening practitioners
• Joe has heard about a facilitator using an extremely high amount of 5-MEO-DMT on his patients, far above the effective dose
• Joe mentions a story about a “shaman” who was to facilitate a session. The participant thought they were going to do standard DMT, and the shaman gave them 5-MEO-DMT instead (without the users consent)
  • Joe suggests that just because you know a reputable source for a substance, doesn't mean they are a good facilitator

Final Thoughts

• People can find information on the study at clinicaltrials.gov
• People can apply by contacting Nathan’s team directly
  • They will have room for healthy volunteers in healthy volunteer studies in the future
  • They are currently working on “insight surveys” that are surveys asking people about their psychedelic experiences

Links

Hopkins Psychedelic Research Website

About Nathan Sepeda

Nathan Sepeda is an assistant facilitator (or guide) for psychoactive drug sessions and research coordinator for the Johns Hopkins Psychedelic Research Unit. Nathan earned an undergraduate degree from the University of Minnesota studying psychology and neuroscience. His interests in addiction and mood disorders, in combination with the promising research with psychedelics, have led Nathan to Dr. Roland Griffiths’ lab. Nathan is involved in a number of projects investigating the effects of various psychedelic substances, including psilocybin, salvinorin-A, and 5-MeO-DMT.

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In this episode, Kyle interviews Dr. Jenifer Talley, Clinical Psychologist and Assistant Director at the Center for Optimal Living that does harm reduction in psychotherapy. Topics include the current stigma of substance use and the benefits of using a harm reduction approach.

3 Key Points:

1. Dr. Jenifer Talley is a Clinical Psychologist at the Center for Optimal Living who practices harm reduction with her psychotherapy clients.
2. Substance abuse is typically a symptom of a bigger issue. Jenifer uses a model called the 7 Therapeutic Tasks that helps build a safe relationship with her clients in adjusting their substance abuse mindset.
3. There is a stigma on substance use, and shifting away from the current model into a harm reduction framework could help users be more receptive to change and healing.

Support the show

• Patreon
• Leave us a review on iTunes
• Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc
• Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community.

Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes About Dr. Jenifer Talley

• Jenifer grew up outside of DC and moved up to New York area for her internship and was working with female survivors of trauma and substance use at St. Luke's Hospital.
• Dr. Tatarsky has founded the Center for Optimal Living and she is the Assistant Director
• The Center for Optimal Living is known best for their work with substance use and harm reduction

Substance Abuse

• Jenifer says that 'abstinence only' or 'abstinence first' approach doesn't really work
  • It's all about determining the relationship the patients want to have with a substance
• People really struggle with vulnerability and trauma is a player as to why someone wants to use a substance
  • "Substance use is a symptom of a bigger issue" - Jenifer
• It's unfair to ask someone to change without asking the whole system to change

7 Therapeutic Tasks

• The Therapeutic Alliance - Letting the client know they can trust them
• The Therapeutic Relationship Heals - Jenifer says they are sensitive about creating a safe therapeutic relationship with clients
• Enhancing Self Management Skills - How to better help with coping skills, shifting how people relate to cravings
  • "What's driving my urge to go for a drink right now?"
  • Loneliness, boredom and sadness are reasons for craving
• Assessment as Treatment - What was the craving, how did they respond to that craving, how did they give into the craving, how did they feel afterward
  • When Friday night rolls around, can the client picture the guilt and shame of Monday morning in that moment?
• Embracing Ambivalence - The client might have different parts of themselves, one part of them may want to really work on healing and change, and the other part of them might never want to change
• Goal Setting - helping clients think through bigger lifestyle changes they want to make, such as diet, self care activities, and specific substance use related goals
• Personalized Plan for Change - asking people to really evaluate their use

Substance Use Stigma

• How do we not be judgmental about someone's substance use, and care about their safety?
• Jenifer says she feels very protective about people she works with, and is very sensitive to her clients because of the shame about their drug use

Clients Under the Influence

• Jenifer asks herself "does this person need medical attention right now?"
• She had a client that came in intoxicated but they were able to have a conversation still
  • But she didn't let him go home because the fact that he drank
  • She gave him food and water and waited until he was able to get home safely
  • She thought about it from a compassionate approach and thought "what is that telling us about his use?" and the next time the client came in they said their drinking was hardly manageable

Harm Reduction Model

• There is a gap in training as clinicians as providers
• In the US specifically, the 12 step process and abstinence are used which are a part of the disease model
• There is a lot of stigma and shame in calling someone an addict
• The fear about the harm reduction model is that it is thought to lead to decriminalization
• The other issue is that the harm reduction model is thought to not include abstinence
  • Jenifer says it does include abstinence, she just doesn't lead with the abstinence approach
• Kyle mentions that a common thought for clinicians is "How do I incorporate a hard reduction approach without condoning drug use?"
  • Jenifer says the drug use is happening already
  • The first step is noticing your own biases first, and then getting informed about the model
  • Andrew Tatarsky's Book
  • Patt Denning and Jeannie Little - Over the Influence

Shifting to the Harm Reduction Model

• Help clients build a life that they are happy with
• 3 day training coming up
  • The training goes into the history and why there needs to be a paradigm shift in looking at addiction
  • The second and third days really go into the 7 Therapeutic Tasks
• Because there is more funding, they are going to train the region of Florida to train the staff at the Department of Health
• The idea of harm reduction might be less appealing to parents, so they really focus on educating parents and teens on harm reduction versus strict abstinence
  • Safety First
  • Robert Meyers
• Kyle mentions a statistic he read saying that the older generation's vice is alcohol, and that young adults are using opioids and pills
• Psychedelic Education and Continuing Care Program is psychedelic harm reduction

Final Thoughts

• A harm reduction approach is necessary to teach people how to test, it could possibly save lives
• Families for Sensible Drug Policy
• We need to re-humanize treatment for users

Links

JeniferTalley

Center for Optimal Living

Check out our online course, "Introduction to Psychedelics"

About Dr. Jenifer Talley

As the Assistant Director of The Center for Optimal Living, Jenifer coordinates clinical services and training activities along with providing individual psychotherapy.Together with Dr. Andrew Tatarsky, she started the first-ever Harm Reduction Psychotherapy Certificate Program. In her clinical work at The Center for Optimal Living, she provides individual psychotherapy using an integrative harm reduction framework where the focus is on developing a collaborative and compassionate relationship with my clients to promote positive change.

Download

In this episode, Kyle interviews Dr. Jenifer Talley, Clinical Psychologist and Assistant Director at the Center for Optimal Living that does harm reduction in psychotherapy. Topics include the current stigma of substance use and the benefits of using a harm reduction approach.

3 Key Points:

1. Dr. Jenifer Talley is a Clinical Psychologist at the Center for Optimal Living who practices harm reduction with her psychotherapy clients.
2. Substance abuse is typically a symptom of a bigger issue. Jenifer uses a model called the 7 Therapeutic Tasks that helps build a safe relationship with her clients in adjusting their substance abuse mindset.
3. There is a stigma on substance use, and shifting away from the current model into a harm reduction framework could help users be more receptive to change and healing.

Support the show

• Patreon
• Leave us a review on iTunes
• Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc
• Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community.

Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes About Dr. Jenifer Talley

• Jenifer grew up outside of DC and moved up to New York area for her internship and was working with female survivors of trauma and substance use at St. Luke's Hospital.
• Dr. Tatarsky has founded the Center for Optimal Living and she is the Assistant Director
• The Center for Optimal Living is known best for their work with substance use and harm reduction

Substance Abuse

• Jenifer says that 'abstinence only' or 'abstinence first' approach doesn't really work
  • It's all about determining the relationship the patients want to have with a substance
• People really struggle with vulnerability and trauma is a player as to why someone wants to use a substance
  • “Substance use is a symptom of a bigger issue” - Jenifer
• It's unfair to ask someone to change without asking the whole system to change

7 Therapeutic Tasks

• The Therapeutic Alliance - Letting the client know they can trust them
• The Therapeutic Relationship Heals - Jenifer says they are sensitive about creating a safe therapeutic relationship with clients
• Enhancing Self Management Skills - How to better help with coping skills, shifting how people relate to cravings
  • “What’s driving my urge to go for a drink right now?”
  • Loneliness, boredom and sadness are reasons for craving
• Assessment as Treatment - What was the craving, how did they respond to that craving, how did they give into the craving, how did they feel afterward
  • When Friday night rolls around, can the client picture the guilt and shame of Monday morning in that moment?
• Embracing Ambivalence - The client might have different parts of themselves, one part of them may want to really work on healing and change, and the other part of them might never want to change
• Goal Setting - helping clients think through bigger lifestyle changes they want to make, such as diet, self care activities, and specific substance use related goals
• Personalized Plan for Change - asking people to really evaluate their use

Substance Use Stigma

• How do we not be judgmental about someone's substance use, and care about their safety?
• Jenifer says she feels very protective about people she works with, and is very sensitive to her clients because of the shame about their drug use

Clients Under the Influence

• Jenifer asks herself “does this person need medical attention right now?”
• She had a client that came in intoxicated but they were able to have a conversation still
  • But she didn't let him go home because the fact that he drank
  • She gave him food and water and waited until he was able to get home safely
  • She thought about it from a compassionate approach and thought “what is that telling us about his use?” and the next time the client came in they said their drinking was hardly manageable

Harm Reduction Model

• There is a gap in training as clinicians as providers
• In the US specifically, the 12 step process and abstinence are used which are a part of the disease model
• There is a lot of stigma and shame in calling someone an addict
• The fear about the harm reduction model is that it is thought to lead to decriminalization
• The other issue is that the harm reduction model is thought to not include abstinence
  • Jenifer says it does include abstinence, she just doesn't lead with the abstinence approach
• Kyle mentions that a common thought for clinicians is “How do I incorporate a hard reduction approach without condoning drug use?”
  • Jenifer says the drug use is happening already
  • The first step is noticing your own biases first, and then getting informed about the model
  • Andrew Tatarsky’s Book
  • Patt Denning and Jeannie Little - Over the Influence

Shifting to the Harm Reduction Model

• Help clients build a life that they are happy with
• 3 day training coming up
  • The training goes into the history and why there needs to be a paradigm shift in looking at addiction
  • The second and third days really go into the 7 Therapeutic Tasks
• Because there is more funding, they are going to train the region of Florida to train the staff at the Department of Health
• The idea of harm reduction might be less appealing to parents, so they really focus on educating parents and teens on harm reduction versus strict abstinence
  • Safety First 
  • Robert Meyers
• Kyle mentions a statistic he read saying that the older generation’s vice is alcohol, and that young adults are using opioids and pills
• Psychedelic Education and Continuing Care Program is psychedelic harm reduction

Final Thoughts

• A harm reduction approach is necessary to teach people how to test, it could possibly save lives
• Families for Sensible Drug Policy
• We need to re-humanize treatment for users

Links

JeniferTalley

Center for Optimal Living

Check out our online course, "Introduction to Psychedelics"

About Dr. Jenifer Talley

As the Assistant Director of The Center for Optimal Living, Jenifer coordinates clinical services and training activities along with providing individual psychotherapy.Together with Dr. Andrew Tatarsky, she started the first-ever Harm Reduction Psychotherapy Certificate Program. In her clinical work at The Center for Optimal Living, she provides individual psychotherapy using an integrative harm reduction framework where the focus is on developing a collaborative and compassionate relationship with my clients to promote positive change.

Download In this episode, Joe and Kyle sit down with Renn Butler, who graduated from the second ever class of Holotropic Breathwork in 1989. During the show, they discuss topics on Breathwork, Stan Grof practices, archetypal astrology and the astrological landscape we are entering in 2019.

3 Key Points:

1. Renn Butler is an Archetypal and Holotropic Astrologer since the 70's who uses astrology in his Breathwork practice.
2. Stan Grof's Internalized Protocol includes lying down with eye shades and headphones with a sober sitter. A sober sitter is more common in therapeutic settings versus the shamanistic group settings, and Renn believes there is more benefit to a sober sitter in a personal session than a group session.
3. We are moving into a Jupiter square Neptune for all of 2019. Neptune represents our soul's yearning to reawaken to the universal field of consciousness and Jupiter amplifies whatever it touches, so we are entering into a time of opportunity for self exploration and awakening.

Support the show

• Patreon
• Leave us a review on iTunes
• Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc
• Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community.

Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes About Renn

• Renn became interested in Stan Grof's work through many conversations with Richard Tarnas in 1980, and then participated in a Grof month long session with guests like Gwen Frishkoff
  • He spent much time in Esalon
  • He remembers walking through the hallways where the mandalas from breathwork sessions were hung
• He has been an Archetypal/Holotropic Astrologer since the 70's

Archetypal Astrology

• Stan Grof looked at ways to determine the content of people's experiences in assisted psychotherapy
  • Through his friendship with Richard Tarnas, he found that people's planetary alignments or 'transits' corresponded in a remarkable way with their experience in a session
• "The purpose of astrology is to predict the meaning behind events rather than trying to determine the specific concrete forms they take." - Renn
  • Carl Jung coined the term archetype based on the Greek word "arche", which means 'the forms'
  • It's the psychological meaning behind events
• Richard learned astrology by looking at his sessions and the content of the sessions and their correlation with astrological transits
  • Based on his findings, he was able to predict the best days to do sessions

A Powerful Breathwork Session

• Renn had Kundalini Experiences happening for 4 years
• Transiting Pluto was conjoining his natal Neptune
  • Pluto compels into being whatever archetypes it aligns with
  • Neptune represents divine consciousness
• He did a 5 hour breathwork session that caused him to re-live aspects of toxic womb (disturbances of intrauterine life)
  • Pluto can help clear out disturbances of the psyche
• At the end of the session, he felt way more cleared out than he did before It resolved his Kundalini episode that he was in for the last few years

Kundalini Awakenings

• Some describe it as energy moving up the spine or chakra
  • It means to clear out leftover traumatic baggage in the psyche
• People can have emotional outbursts and start crying or screaming as they discharge the energy
  • Afterward, they will care what happens to the ecosystem and around them and want to be a part of the solution

Spiritual Emergence and Psychosis

• Joe asks when to tell the difference between knowing if someone is going through a Spiritual Emergence or needs hospitalization
• Renn responds saying you need to look for if the person is taking responsibility for their healing versus projecting.
  • Projecting would be someone saying "You guys are trying to poison me" versus taking responsibility and saying "I'm feeling toxic feelings inside myself"
  • Free Webinar on Spiritual Emergence and Psychosis
• Renn mentions a woman who did 90 LSD sessions with Stan Grof
• "The greatest therapeutic outcomes exist with intelligent well established individuals whose lives become boring and rigid in routine" - Stan Grof

Current Astrological Alignments

• The Astrological Alignments for the next few years are supercharged
  • Uranus square Pluto - a powerful set of archetypes
  • The last time this happened was the end of the 60's
  • Richard Tarnas calls it the 'sunset effect', colors will saturate the sky in the archetypal realm
• Many people are going to have dramatic healing breakthroughs and openings until 2020
• For those who are a bit skeptical about astrology, Renn suggest reading newer texts;
  • Cosmos and Psyche
  • Prometheus the Awakener
  • Making the Gods Work for You
  • Horoscope Symbols
  • Planets in Transit

Astrological Transits in Relation to Breathwork

• Richard's correlation of the outer planets Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto with Grof's 4 perinatal matrices shows the process of revolutionizing astrology
• Carl Jung would do chart work before seeing all of his patients
  • He would try to find transits with Jupiter, Uranus, Venus, etc
• There are no astrological alignments that would be too dangerous to do journey-work during
  • But Renn says it's like putting up the lightning rod during certain transits during breathwork
• "Lie back and let the mother give birth to you" - Renn
  • Renn says it's safer if you are on your back during journey work versus walking around and facing gravity and falling or hurting yourself

Grof Internalized Protocol

• One patient at a time (sitter, breather team) to lie down, wear eye shades, and listen to music through headphones
  • The sitter agrees not to judge or direct the process or abandon the process
• You can expect miracles with this type of protocol
• You can't face this material by yourself, you really need people you trust, who are sober and not doing a substance, one person at a time
  • Renn says the ayahuasca revolution has brought a lot of greatness to the western world, but the shamanic traditions usually meant that the shaman drinks with the clients to have a magical insight into the users psyche

Sitter Role

• In a therapeutic framework, the sitter is sober and lets the client do all of the work, and the sitter is there to assist, but not to interfere with the process
• Stan describes it as a way to maximize the benefits and minimize the risks
• Renn brings up an example of 3 people doing mushrooms together
  • One person might be feeling aggressive, and another person might feel like a baby wanting to be held
  • The aggressive person won't want to be doing any cuddling
  • One person does the catalyst, and the other 2 support them, and then the next time they rotate
• Renn thinks one deep session is more beneficial than 3 'half-assed' sessions

Interruptions During Sessions

• Some people have a fear that their experience may interrupt another person's experience
  • Renn says that if someone is laughing or screaming or crying that he understands it is just a part of the universe of the way things just are
• He is shocked to hear stories about people having a loud experience getting taken out away from the rest of the group and told to contain themselves
• Kyle mentions that sounds usually aren't a bother, and the loud music helps
  • But it's talking, English words that bring people out of a session
• People can have great ayahuasca ceremonies, and then they think that ayahuasca is the best psychedelic out there
  • Renn says that all psychedelics are great tools
  • But he encourages people to try breathwork and this solo session style healing
• Joe says he dreams of a place where shamanism takes a look at the solo process and maybe not always the group process, that all cultures can combine our knowledge for the best result

2019

• • We are moving into a Jupiter square Neptune for all of 2019, 90 degrees between Jupiter and Neptune
    • Neptune represents our soul's yearning to reawaken to the larger world's soul, to the universal field of consciousness
    • Jupiter amplifies whatever it touches
    • This presents a large opportunity for self exploration, with a feeling of deeper cosmic safety
  • "It seems like our psyche's wait until things are safe for the deepest material to surface." - Renn
  • Renn says it's good to focus on death so that we can constantly keep our priorities straight

Links

• A Week of Holotropic Breathwork, Dreamwork, Archetypal Astrology, and Visits to Mayan Ruins in Tulum, Mexico
• Archetypal Astrology Consultations
• Renn's Books
  • The Archetypal Universe
  • Pathways to Wholeness

Check out our online course, "Introduction to Psychedelics"

About Renn

Following a B.A. in English and Religious Studies from the University of Alberta, Renn Butler lived at the Esalen Institute in California for 2½ years where he became deeply immersed in the transpersonal psychology of Stanislav Grof and the emerging archetypal astrology of Richard Tarnas. He completed training as a Holotropic Breathwork facilitator with Stan and Christina Grof in 1989 and has facilitated many workshops in Victoria, Canada. His research includes over three decades of archetypal-astrology consultations and Holotropic Breathwork workshops, and thirty-five years of Jungian-Grofian dreamwork.

Download
In this episode, Joe and Kyle sit down with Renn Butler, who graduated from the second ever class of Holotropic Breathwork in 1989. During the show, they discuss topics on Breathwork, Stan Grof practices, archetypal astrology and the astrological landscape we are entering in 2019.

3 Key Points:

1. Renn Butler is an Archetypal and Holotropic Astrologer since the 70’s who uses astrology in his Breathwork practice.
2. Stan Grof’s Internalized Protocol includes lying down with eye shades and headphones with a sober sitter. A sober sitter is more common in therapeutic settings versus the shamanistic group settings, and Renn believes there is more benefit to a sober sitter in a personal session than a group session.
3. We are moving into a Jupiter square Neptune for all of 2019. Neptune represents our soul’s yearning to reawaken to the universal field of consciousness and Jupiter amplifies whatever it touches, so we are entering into a time of opportunity for self exploration and awakening.

Support the show

• Patreon
• Leave us a review on iTunes
• Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc
• Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community.

Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes About Renn

• Renn became interested in Stan Grof’s work through many conversations with Richard Tarnas in 1980, and then participated in a Grof month long session with guests like Gwen Frishkoff
  • He spent much time in Esalon
  • He remembers walking through the hallways where the mandalas from breathwork sessions were hung
• He has been an Archetypal/Holotropic Astrologer since the 70’s

Archetypal Astrology

• Stan Grof looked at ways to determine the content of people’s experiences in assisted psychotherapy
  • Through his friendship with Richard Tarnas, he found that people’s planetary alignments or ‘transits’ corresponded in a remarkable way with their experience in a session
• “The purpose of astrology is to predict the meaning behind events rather than trying to determine the specific concrete forms they take.” - Renn
  • Carl Jung coined the term archetype based on the Greek word “arche”, which means ‘the forms’
  • It's the psychological meaning behind events
• Richard learned astrology by looking at his sessions and the content of the sessions and their correlation with astrological transits
  • Based on his findings, he was able to predict the best days to do sessions

A Powerful Breathwork Session

• Renn had Kundalini Experiences happening for 4 years
• Transiting Pluto was conjoining his natal Neptune
  • Pluto compels into being whatever archetypes it aligns with
  • Neptune represents divine consciousness
• He did a 5 hour breathwork session that caused him to re-live aspects of toxic womb (disturbances of intrauterine life)
  • Pluto can help clear out disturbances of the psyche
• At the end of the session, he felt way more cleared out than he did before
  It resolved his Kundalini episode that he was in for the last few years

Kundalini Awakenings

• Some describe it as energy moving up the spine or chakra
  • It means to clear out leftover traumatic baggage in the psyche
• People can have emotional outbursts and start crying or screaming as they discharge the energy
  • Afterward, they will care what happens to the ecosystem and around them and want to be a part of the solution

Spiritual Emergence and Psychosis

• Joe asks when to tell the difference between knowing if someone is going through a Spiritual Emergence or needs hospitalization
• Renn responds saying you need to look for if the person is taking responsibility for their healing versus projecting.
  • Projecting would be someone saying “You guys are trying to poison me” versus taking responsibility and saying “I’m feeling toxic feelings inside myself”
  • Free Webinar on Spiritual Emergence and Psychosis 
• Renn mentions a woman who did 90 LSD sessions with Stan Grof
• “The greatest therapeutic outcomes exist with intelligent well established individuals whose lives become boring and rigid in routine” - Stan Grof

Current Astrological Alignments

• The Astrological Alignments for the next few years are supercharged
  • Uranus square Pluto - a powerful set of archetypes
  • The last time this happened was the end of the 60’s
  • Richard Tarnas calls it the ‘sunset effect’, colors will saturate the sky in the archetypal realm
• Many people are going to have dramatic healing breakthroughs and openings until 2020
• For those who are a bit skeptical about astrology, Renn suggest reading newer texts;
  • Cosmos and Psyche
  • Prometheus the Awakener
  • Making the Gods Work for You
  • Horoscope Symbols
  • Planets in Transit

Astrological Transits in Relation to Breathwork

• Richard’s correlation of the outer planets Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto with Grof’s 4 perinatal matrices shows the process of revolutionizing astrology
• Carl Jung would do chart work before seeing all of his patients
  • He would try to find transits with Jupiter, Uranus, Venus, etc
• There are no astrological alignments that would be too dangerous to do journey-work during
  • But Renn says it's like putting up the lightning rod during certain transits during breathwork
• “Lie back and let the mother give birth to you” - Renn
  • Renn says it's safer if you are on your back during journey work versus walking around and facing gravity and falling or hurting yourself

Grof Internalized Protocol

• One patient at a time (sitter, breather team) to lie down, wear eye shades, and listen to music through headphones
  • The sitter agrees not to judge or direct the process or abandon the process
• You can expect miracles with this type of protocol
• You can't face this material by yourself, you really need people you trust, who are sober and not doing a substance, one person at a time
  • Renn says the ayahuasca revolution has brought a lot of greatness to the western world, but the shamanic traditions usually meant that the shaman drinks with the clients to have a magical insight into the users psyche

Sitter Role

• In a therapeutic framework, the sitter is sober and lets the client do all of the work, and the sitter is there to assist, but not to interfere with the process
• Stan describes it as a way to maximize the benefits and minimize the risks
• Renn brings up an example of 3 people doing mushrooms together
  • One person might be feeling aggressive, and another person might feel like a baby wanting to be held
  • The aggressive person won't want to be doing any cuddling
  • One person does the catalyst, and the other 2 support them, and then the next time they rotate
• Renn thinks one deep session is more beneficial than 3 ‘half-assed’ sessions

Interruptions During Sessions

• Some people have a fear that their experience may interrupt another person's experience
  • Renn says that if someone is laughing or screaming or crying that he understands it is just a part of the universe of the way things just are
• He is shocked to hear stories about people having a loud experience getting taken out away from the rest of the group and told to contain themselves
• Kyle mentions that sounds usually aren't a bother, and the loud music helps
  • But it's talking, English words that bring people out of a session
• People can have great ayahuasca ceremonies, and then they think that ayahuasca is the best psychedelic out there
  • Renn says that all psychedelics are great tools
  • But he encourages people to try breathwork and this solo session style healing
• Joe says he dreams of a place where shamanism takes a look at the solo process and maybe not always the group process, that all cultures can combine our knowledge for the best result

2019

• • We are moving into a Jupiter square Neptune for all of 2019, 90 degrees between Jupiter and Neptune
    • Neptune represents our soul’s yearning to reawaken to the larger world’s soul, to the universal field of consciousness
    • Jupiter amplifies whatever it touches
    • This presents a large opportunity for self exploration, with a feeling of deeper cosmic safety
  • “It seems like our psyche’s wait until things are safe for the deepest material to surface.” - Renn
  • Renn says it's good to focus on death so that we can constantly keep our priorities straight

Links

• A Week of Holotropic Breathwork, Dreamwork, Archetypal Astrology, and Visits to Mayan Ruins in Tulum, Mexico
• Archetypal Astrology Consultations
• Renn's Books
  • The Archetypal Universe
  • Pathways to Wholeness

Check out our online course, "Introduction to Psychedelics"

About Renn

Following a B.A. in English and Religious Studies from the University of Alberta, Renn Butler lived at the Esalen Institute in California for 2½ years where he became deeply immersed in the transpersonal psychology of Stanislav Grof and the emerging archetypal astrology of Richard Tarnas. He completed training as a Holotropic Breathwork facilitator with Stan and Christina Grof in 1989 and has facilitated many workshops in Victoria, Canada. His research includes over three decades of archetypal-astrology consultations and Holotropic Breathwork workshops, and thirty-five years of Jungian-Grofian dreamwork.

Download

In this unique episode, Joe brings Tom Hatsis and Dr. Jerry Brown together for a psychedelic debate. They go back in forth in conversation on whether there was psychedelic use in medieval or ancient Christianity and if so, was there a secret tradition of including art of mushrooms or psychedelic substances in cathedrals and castles.

3 Key Points:

1. Jerry Brown makes the claim that there is evidence of visionary plants in Christianity and the life of Jesus found in medieval art and biblical scripture.
2. Tom Hatsis makes the claim that Christianity is not hiding a giant secret inside the biblical texts about the true hallucinogen at the root of the religion being an Amanita Muscaria.
3. Jerry and Tom debate back and forth, pulling from art and textual evidence (and lack thereof) to support or deny the claim that Psychedelic Mushrooms are the root of Christian religion.

Support the show

• Patreon
• Leave us a review on iTunes
• Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc
• Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community.

Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes Jerry B. Brown PhD.

Anthropologist, Author and Activist Served as the Prof of Anthropology at FIU in Miami He designed and taught a course on hallucinogens and culture He is the Co-Author of Sacred Plants and the Gnostic Church: Speculations on Entheogen use in Early Christian Ritual The Psychedelic Gospels: The Secret History of Hallucinogens in Christianity

Tom Hatsis

Author, Public Speaker, Roller Derby Player and Potion Maker He is the Author of three books in Psychedelia; The Witches Ointment: the Secret History of Psychedelic Magic Psychedelic Mystery Traditions; Spirit Plants, Magical Practices and Psychedelic States Microdosing Magic: A Psychedelic Spellbook Partnered with event organizer and short film maker, Eden Woodruff, who runs Psanctum Psychedelia in Portland in the process of winning the Guinness Book of World Record in Magic

Intro

• The debate is around the early Christian use of psychedelics and mushrooms in Christian art
• The conversation is on the validity on whether or not psychedelics were used in early Christianity

Dr. Jerry Brown on Psychedelics in Christianity

• The Miracle of Marsh Chapel - a double-blind experiment conducted by Walter Pahnky in 1962 where 20 students were divided into two groups, half received niacin and the other half received psilocybin
  • 9 out of 10 who took psilocybin had a profound psychedelic experience
  • Brown explains that this is an important part in the entire history of psychedelics
• After discovering the Amanita Muscaria mushroom (confirmed by Paul Stamets) in a 15th Century Church in Scotland, he realized that there were many entheogenic images in Christian art
• He says that most church historians do not have training in mycology to recognize entheogens and mushrooms
• He brings up an image of Adam and Eve standing next to a large Amanita Muscaria mushroom
• He went to a Parish Church and saw an image of Jesus entering Jerusalem on a Donkey, and one of the youths welcoming Jesus is holding a long mushroom cap
• He went to churches in England, Germany and France
  • In the drawing of Genesis, he saw God creating plants (psilocybin mushrooms)
• "When you go back beyond the 3rd century, there are no visual images or Christian art due to poverty and persecution" - Jerry
• Jerry reads a passage, "Jesus said to his disciples, "compare me to someone and tell me who I am like" Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like." Jesus said "I am not your master, because you have drunk you have become intoxicated from the bubbling wellspring that I have personally measured out. He who will drink from my mouth will become like me, I shall become like he, and the things that are hidden, should be revealed to him."
  • He interprets the passage as a reference to drinking a psychoactive mushroom substance
  • Jerry goes on to explain that Jesus realized his feeling of eternal life through the use of psychoactive entheogens
  • He says that this is not a means of dismissing Christianity, but instead to reintroduce Christianity with its original roots

Tom Hatsis on Psychedelics in Christianity

• Tom says that Jerry makes a lot of assertions, but does not present any evidence. He talks about art, but not anything in scripture
• Tom is curious why the only artwork that Jerry brings his assertions about mushrooms are from a time where we can't ask them about it
• Tom brings up Julie and Jerry's book and that the first chapter has nothing to do with Christian History at all
• Tom uses an example of stone mushrooms. Someone doing a cross cultural analysis, might agree that they are mushrooms based on the other findings of cannabis and opioids
  • But, as a historian, Tom looks for evidence and in this case, there are eye witness accounts of its use
• He brings up the example, the infamous plaincourault fresco of Adam and Eve at the tree of good and evil with the forbidden fruit
  • Using this one example, he wants to prove how critical historical methodology is used to prove unsubstantiated claims on Christian art as wrong
  • Tom urges listeners to view the unaltered versions of the plaincourault fresco at Georgio Samorini's Flikr page
  • The paradise tree is a mix of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and a symbol of Christ's victory over Adam's transgression. In the play, it was tradition to place small Eucharist wafers on the tree branches so that's what the white dots are on the tree branches
  • The tree's shape is not a mushroom cap, it is a parasol of victory

Jerry's Rebuttle

• Jerry says that the absence of evidence, is not equal, or proof of evidence of absence (just because it's not written in text, doesn't mean that its not there in the art)
• Jerry's issue with the fresco is that "The Fall" is a New Testament creation, not all the way back in Genesis
• He says that on their website, they do not 'alter' the image, they 'enhance' it
• He says that Tom claims the fruit doesn't matter, but the fruit does matter (it could be a psychedelic mushroom)
• He touches on the skeletal appearance of Eve and the meaning of renewal of life
• Jerry thinks this image is the beginning of the religious experience and symbolism that the soul is immortal and will continue to exist after death
• He says the serpent is not a depiction of evil entering Eden, but instead a source of knowledge and a spiritual guide to the feminine to help bring man into higher awareness

Tom's Rebuttle

• Tom says he didn't hear any evidence from Jerry, he heard arguments to authority
• He says that Jerry uses anthropology to uncover history, and opinions of art historians, but medieval historians agree that the mushroom is not present in Christian art
• He also says he did agree with Jerry about the mushroom in art, but that was last year and he has proven himself wrong and that the mushroom caps are parasols of victory
• Jerry says that Amanita Muscaria was in the Soma, but Tom says cannabis was, and mushrooms were not Chris Bennett's book on Soma
• There is zero evidence for mushroom art during medieval times
• In Jerry's book, he writes about the Basilica di Aquilea, saying that they are Amanita Muscaria, but Tom says they are not that type of mushroom

• Tom also says that in the play depicted in the plaincourault, that the script literally says the wafers are hung on the tree, and that the little white dots are not the dots from an Amanita Muscaria

Jerry's Closing Remarks

• He says that this isn't just cultural analysis, this is about fieldwork and looking at how native people view this artwork
• The problem he has with Tom and Church historians is that it is not taking evidence from Ethnobotanists
• Jerry says he believes that there is a long tradition of entheogenic mushrooms in Christian art and would like this debate to continue

Tom's Closing Remarks

• Tom says he still isn't hearing evidence, he is only hearing assertions and argument to authority and eminent scholars
• Tom says that Genesis doesn't matter in the plaincourault, because we know that it's about the play
• He has multiple articles debunking these images on his website
  • Carl Sagan's Bologna Detection Kit - which shows how to spot fake conspiracies
• Tom says the holy mushroom hypothesis fails against all the claims Jerry has made

Links

Tom's Website Jerry's Website

Check out our online course, "Introduction to Psychedelics"

About Jerry

Jerry B. Brown, Ph.D., is an anthropologist, author and activist. From 1972-2014, he served as Founding Professor of Anthropology at Florida International University in Miami, where he designed and taught a course on "Hallucinogens and Culture." The course examines the use of psychoactive plants by tribal and classical cultures, including Ancient India and Greece, and by and discusses the discoveries of the modern mind-explorers, the "psychonauts of the twentieth century."

About Tom

Thomas Hatsis is an author, lecturer, and historian of witchcraft, magic, Western religions, contemporary psychedelia, entheogens, and medieval pharmacopeia. In his spare time he visits rare archives, slings elixirs, and coaches roller derby.

Download

In this unique episode, Joe brings Tom Hatsis and Dr. Jerry Brown together for a psychedelic debate. They go back in forth in conversation on whether there was psychedelic use in medieval or ancient Christianity and if so, was there a secret tradition of including art of mushrooms or psychedelic substances in cathedrals and castles.

3 Key Points:

1. Jerry Brown makes the claim that there is evidence of visionary plants in Christianity and the life of Jesus found in medieval art and biblical scripture.
2. Tom Hatsis makes the claim that Christianity is not hiding a giant secret inside the biblical texts about the true hallucinogen at the root of the religion being an Amanita Muscaria.
3. Jerry and Tom debate back and forth, pulling from art and textual evidence (and lack thereof) to support or deny the claim that Psychedelic Mushrooms are the root of Christian religion.

Support the show

• Patreon
• Leave us a review on iTunes
• Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc
• Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community.

Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes Jerry B. Brown PhD.

Anthropologist, Author and Activist
Served as the Prof of Anthropology at FIU in Miami
He designed and taught a course on hallucinogens and culture
He is the Co-Author of Sacred Plants and the Gnostic Church: Speculations on Entheogen use in Early Christian Ritual
The Psychedelic Gospels: The Secret History of Hallucinogens in Christianity

Tom Hatsis

Author, Public Speaker, Roller Derby Player and Potion Maker
He is the Author of three books in Psychedelia;
The Witches Ointment: the Secret History of Psychedelic Magic
Psychedelic Mystery Traditions; Spirit Plants, Magical Practices and Psychedelic States Microdosing Magic: A Psychedelic Spellbook
Partnered with event organizer and short film maker, Eden Woodruff, who runs Psanctum Psychedelia in Portland in the process of winning the Guinness Book of World Record in Magic

Intro

• The debate is around the early Christian use of psychedelics and mushrooms in Christian art
• The conversation is on the validity on whether or not psychedelics were used in early Christianity

Dr. Jerry Brown on Psychedelics in Christianity

• The Miracle of Marsh Chapel - a double-blind experiment conducted by Walter Pahnky in 1962 where 20 students were divided into two groups, half received niacin and the other half received psilocybin
  • 9 out of 10 who took psilocybin had a profound psychedelic experience
  • Brown explains that this is an important part in the entire history of psychedelics
• After discovering the Amanita Muscaria mushroom (confirmed by Paul Stamets) in a 15th Century Church in Scotland, he realized that there were many entheogenic images in Christian art
• He says that most church historians do not have training in mycology to recognize entheogens and mushrooms
• He brings up an image of Adam and Eve standing next to a large Amanita Muscaria mushroom
• He went to a Parish Church and saw an image of Jesus entering Jerusalem on a Donkey, and one of the youths welcoming Jesus is holding a long mushroom cap
• He went to churches in England, Germany and France
  • In the drawing of Genesis, he saw God creating plants (psilocybin mushrooms)
• "When you go back beyond the 3rd century, there are no visual images or Christian art due to poverty and persecution" - Jerry
• Jerry reads a passage,
  “Jesus said to his disciples, “compare me to someone and tell me who I am like” Thomas said to him, “Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like.” Jesus said “I am not your master, because you have drunk you have become intoxicated from the bubbling wellspring that I have personally measured out. He who will drink from my mouth will become like me, I shall become like he, and the things that are hidden, should be revealed to him.”
  • He interprets the passage as a reference to drinking a psychoactive mushroom substance
  • Jerry goes on to explain that Jesus realized his feeling of eternal life through the use of psychoactive entheogens
  • He says that this is not a means of dismissing Christianity, but instead to reintroduce Christianity with its original roots

Tom Hatsis on Psychedelics in Christianity

• Tom says that Jerry makes a lot of assertions, but does not present any evidence. He talks about art, but not anything in scripture
• Tom is curious why the only artwork that Jerry brings his assertions about mushrooms are from a time where we can’t ask them about it
• Tom brings up Julie and Jerry’s book and that the first chapter has nothing to do with Christian History at all
• Tom uses an example of stone mushrooms. Someone doing a cross cultural analysis, might agree that they are mushrooms based on the other findings of cannabis and opioids
  • But, as a historian, Tom looks for evidence and in this case, there are eye witness accounts of its use
• He brings up the example, the infamous plaincourault fresco of Adam and Eve at the tree of good and evil with the forbidden fruit
  • Using this one example, he wants to prove how critical historical methodology is used to prove unsubstantiated claims on Christian art as wrong
  • Tom urges listeners to view the unaltered versions of the plaincourault fresco at Georgio Samorini’s Flikr page 
  • The paradise tree is a mix of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and a symbol of Christ's victory over Adam’s transgression. In the play, it was tradition to place small Eucharist wafers on the tree branches so that’s what the white dots are on the tree branches
  • The tree's shape is not a mushroom cap, it is a parasol of victory

Jerry’s Rebuttle

• Jerry says that the absence of evidence, is not equal, or proof of evidence of absence (just because it’s not written in text, doesn't mean that its not there in the art)
• Jerry’s issue with the fresco is that “The Fall” is a New Testament creation, not all the way back in Genesis
• He says that on their website, they do not ‘alter’ the image, they ‘enhance’ it
• He says that Tom claims the fruit doesn't matter, but the fruit does matter (it could be a psychedelic mushroom)
• He touches on the skeletal appearance of Eve and the meaning of renewal of life
• Jerry thinks this image is the beginning of the religious experience and symbolism that the soul is immortal and will continue to exist after death
• He says the serpent is not a depiction of evil entering Eden, but instead a source of knowledge and a spiritual guide to the feminine to help bring man into higher awareness

Tom’s Rebuttle

• Tom says he didn't hear any evidence from Jerry, he heard arguments to authority
• He says that Jerry uses anthropology to uncover history, and opinions of art historians, but medieval historians agree that the mushroom is not present in Christian art
• He also says he did agree with Jerry about the mushroom in art, but that was last year and he has proven himself wrong and that the mushroom caps are parasols of victory
• Jerry says that Amanita Muscaria was in the Soma, but Tom says cannabis was, and mushrooms were not
  Chris Bennett's book on Soma
• There is zero evidence for mushroom art during medieval times
• In Jerry’s book, he writes about the Basilica di Aquilea, saying that they are Amanita Muscaria, but Tom says they are not that type of mushroom

 

 

 

 

 

• Tom also says that in the play depicted in the plaincourault, that the script literally says the wafers are hung on the tree, and that the little white dots are not the dots from an Amanita Muscaria

Jerry’s Closing Remarks

• He says that this isn't just cultural analysis, this is about fieldwork and looking at how native people view this artwork
• The problem he has with Tom and Church historians is that it is not taking evidence from Ethnobotanists
• Jerry says he believes that there is a long tradition of entheogenic mushrooms in Christian art and would like this debate to continue

Tom’s Closing Remarks

• Tom says he still isn't hearing evidence, he is only hearing assertions and argument to authority and eminent scholars
• Tom says that Genesis doesn't matter in the plaincourault, because we know that it's about the play
• He has multiple articles debunking these images on his website
  • Carl Sagan’s Bologna Detection Kit - which shows how to spot fake conspiracies
• Tom says the holy mushroom hypothesis fails against all the claims Jerry has made

Links

Tom's Website
Jerry's Website

Check out our online course, "Introduction to Psychedelics"

About Jerry

Jerry B. Brown, Ph.D., is an anthropologist, author and activist. From 1972-2014, he served as Founding Professor of Anthropology at Florida International University in Miami, where he designed and taught a course on “Hallucinogens and Culture.” The course examines the use of psychoactive plants by tribal and classical cultures, including Ancient India and Greece, and by and discusses the discoveries of the modern mind-explorers, the “psychonauts of the twentieth century.”

About Tom

Thomas Hatsis is an author, lecturer, and historian of witchcraft, magic, Western religions, contemporary psychedelia, entheogens, and medieval pharmacopeia. In his spare time he visits rare archives, slings elixirs, and coaches roller derby.

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In this episode, Joe interviews Duncan Autrey, a conflict transformation catalyst and educator. He runs a podcast, Fractal Friends, that covers topics of self-similarity across our diversity. During their conversation, Joe and Duncan discuss ways of resolving conflict in our relationships and society.

3 Key Points:

1. Duncan Autrey is a conflict transformation educator, working for peace and cultural change.
2. Conflict happens when one person wants to be heard so much that they stop listening to the other side. It is a product of living in a diverse world.
3. We have more rights than we think we do when facing law enforcement.

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Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes What is Conflict?

• Conflict is a product of living in a diverse world
• Conflict resolution is about how to get different perspectives working together
• Conflict happens when someone is really passionate about their side of the topic
• Conflict also happens when one person wants to be heard so much that they stop listening to the other side
• The ARC of conversation
  • A stands for acknowledge
  • R stands for reflect back
  • C stands for be curious

Resolving Conflict

• Its okay to be certain about your own experiences, but someone might also be certain about their experiences and the key is to find a mutual ground
• "How do we understand ecological issues better and work with each other to find how to create better conversation around it?" - Joe
• In a conversation of conflict, the other side may be the antidote to your extreme
  • Interdependent Polarity - each side has something positive and negative, and each side should acknowledge the negative but aim to pull out the positive of the other side
  • Iceers
• "It's better to find a way to navigate the question, rather than to answer the question" - Duncan
• In a hierarchy of permanence, laws are really low. Laws come and go
• 3 ways we resolve conflict over time; power, violence and laws
  • But the interest based model includes everyone and all sides and works through conflict to live in and share the same planet with each other

Impressive Resilience in Humans

• "Shifts happen"
• People that Duncan works with start thinking to themselves "I'm a good guy facing a bad guy" and the person on the other side of conflict also thinks "I'm a good guy facing a bad guy"
  • Helping guide the people in conflict to just listen to the other person fully is what starts the shift

Law Enforcement and Conflict

• It's important to recognize the difference between the system and the individuals
  • Our whole system of television, movies, everything is all feeding into this
• There are sociopaths in the world (5% of the population), and they are falling into roles like prison guards and CEO's
• Duncan brings up a story where he was in a car with someone who got pulled over, and the car got completely searched
  • He had vitamins on him, and the police assumed it was MDMA, so he was arrested and spent 4 days in jail
  • "This is a place where the people who are on the right side of the law, are being treated like assholes, and where people on the bad side of the law, are on their best behavior" - Duncan
  • This is a systemic issue, where the society says that you are a good person for doing something good, and are a bad person for doing something bad
  • But we shouldn't be defined by what we are 'caught' doing, either good or bad
  • People should be able to hold onto their humanity (not be locked up for life) for something like possession of a drug
  • "If we're going to care about our shared humanity and our right for everyone to be here, we have to figure out the path of restoration" - Duncan
  • "Slavery isn't okay, unless someone gets convicted of a crime"
  • Victoria's Secret has people in prison slavery making lingerie in South Carolina
  • People have to pay off debt from their incarceration, before they get a license, to get a job, that they have to apply to as a criminal
  • Society doesn't make it easy to be human after prison
  • People in grad school with the same amount of debt, have an education, (usually) a job, and have hope for the future

Rights When Getting Pulled Over

• Right to remain silent is real
• Right to consent for search - you don't have to say yes
  • Law enforcement tries to use the fact that you think you're guilty and will let the search happen
• You can't be detained without probable cause (4th Amendment)
  • You can be detained long enough for a traffic citation, but not enough to be caught for another crime
• Smoke smell in the car is probable cause, even in s state where it is legal
• Joe mentions dash cams so that there can be recordings on both ends, not just one end (the police's evidence)
• Duncan had the thought that maybe once they realize that his vitamins were not MDMA, that they might try to switch out the vitamins with MDMA
  • His attorney said they aren't that corrupt, or smart

Links

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Check out our online course, "Introduction to Psychedelics"

About Duncan

Duncan Autrey has worked in facilitation and conflict resolution for over fifteen years in diverse contexts ranging from rural Paraguay and Colombia to cities of Seattle, Washington, DC, Cuenca and Buenos Aires. He approaches conflict from a belief that it arises from the diverse cultural experiences of common human needs. Every conflict or complicated situation, large or small, is an opportunity for deepening our relationships and improving the world we live in. Duncan currently runs a podcast called Fractal Friends covering topics on exploring our self-similarity across our diversity.