Dr Matt Harris from Colorado State University-Pueblo has an amazing book called 2nd Class Saints. It's about the race ban from World War 2 to the present. It's a best seller and sold out in about a month! I think it will win book of the year! We'll discuss his cutting-edge scholarship, how he got access to some amazing diaries and meeting minutes, and the amazing discoveries that help describe the removal of the race ban in June 1978. We'll dive in deep! Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/mk3_jVGW95U

Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/

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GT  00:54  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I have one of my absolute favorite guests on the show, and it's been way too long. It's been more than three years since he's been on. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where you teach?

Matt  01:08  My name is Matt Harris, and I teach at Colorado State University-Pueblo, where I've taught since 2005.  I teach legal history, civil rights history, race and politics, church and state and the American Constitution.

GT  01:25  Oh, wow!

Matt  01:25  All the stuff that I write about usually shows up in some form in my classroom, lectures and teachings. So, it's a lot of fun.

GT  01:37  Well, and you've got a best selling book. I fact, I think it's only been out a month or two.

Matt  01:44  It's been out since July 1st.

GT  01:46  So, less than a month, and it's already sold out.

Matt  01:49  It's already sold out.

GT  01:50  So tell us the name of the book.

Matt  01:52  The book is called Second Class Saints: Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality. I'm happy to say it sold out the first print run. But there's a second printing that'll come out probably in a few days. So, the gap is not it's not big.

GT  02:11  I just want to point out that Matt was kind enough to autograph a copy of Second Class Saints, and one of you is going to win this book. It's a fantastic book, I'm sure. Here's the thing. I already think it's going to win the Best Book Award for next year, although you are going to have a run for your money, because Paul Reeve is coming out with his book on the 1852 legislature, a similar topic, so he might give you a run for your money.[1] But this book is incredible.

Matt  02:57  Thank you.

GT  02:58  For those of you, you know, nobody watches on my podcast like I do. We have already talked about a lot of this book from about six years ago, I think it was.

Matt  03:12  Probably.

GT  03:12  And so, we're going to dive into a little bit, because I'm sure in the last six years I've got some new listeners that haven't heard that. But I will say, go check it out. We're going to talk about some of the other stuff in this book that doesn't get as much play. Also, I don't know if I should ask you now. I'll ask you later, but I'll just preview it here. I'm going to ask what you had to put on the cutting room floor?

Matt  03:41  Yeah. I've been asked that. That's a good question.

GT  03:46  Anyway, just for those of you, by the way, you're my first five-time guest.

Matt  03:52  Woo!

GT  03:52  But, it's been three years.

Matt  03:56  Wow, oh my goodness, five times. Where does time go?

 

Pres Benson

GT  04:00  Although one of them technically, we started talking about this book, and we then we got, then I asked a question about Ezra Taft Benson, and then we went for another two hours. So I, actually, split that one up twice. So, you're a big Benson fan. Right?

Matt  04:20  No. I mean, that's not a comment on him, personally, it's a comment on his politics.  I do not think that right wing extremism is good for anybody. Anyway, I have written about Elder Benson, and I've written about how his political views have influenced the Church. And one of the points I frequently noted to people when I've talked about Elder Benson...

GT  04:47  Because you've written two books on him.

Matt  04:48  I've written two books about him. One's called Thunder From the Right. It's a collection of essays that I put together.

GT  04:53  It's a fantastic book.

Matt  04:54  Thanks and BYU professors contributed some essays and hosted other Mormon studies scholars. The other book is called Watchman on the Tower: Ezra Taft Benson and the Making of the Mormon Right. What I've shared with people is he wasn't just an important religious leader, which he was, but [he was] also a significant political thinker in post-war America. Because he had such ultra-conservative views, he influenced the Church, and we're still feeling his influence today. It's not lost on me that a lot of folks who identify as being ultra-conservative, Elder Benson and  Cleon Skousen are their two favorite people. So, their influence still looms large.

GT  05:38  Very good. And that's another fantastic book, I'll add.

Matt  05:41  Thank you. Yeah, I can't seem to shy away from controversial topics. What is it about me? (Both chuckling)  Right wing extremism and the priesthood ban and race...

 

 

Academic History

GT  05:53  Alright. So before we dive into the book, one thing I want to do is just, since it's been so long, is remind people where you got your bachelor's, master's, Ph.D. and that sort of stuff.

Matt  06:05  Sure. So, I graduated in 1994 from BYU with a bachelor's degree in history and political science, mostly focused on political theory and philosophy. I did a master's degree at BYU. My wife had one year left at BYU, and so rather than go somewhere else for graduate school, I decided to stick around with my master's while she finished  her BA. Then I went to the Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs in Syracuse, New York - Syracuse University.

GT  06:38  Oh, I thought it was Neil A Maxwell.

Matt  06:39  Well, I don't know if they would have given me a degree.

GT  06:45  (Chuckling)  They gave you one already.

Matt  06:47  Yeah, two degrees.

GT  06:49  Yeah, that's right.

Matt  06:51  Then I got a second master's degree at Syracuse and my Ph.D. My focus for the first part of my career was in early American history. I've shared this before with folks, but when I was at BYU, I had several people, faculty mentors, who told me, "Don't do Mormon history. It's like quicksand. Once you're in, you'll never get out." They were right. They were absolutely right. And so I don't know if my wife's very happy about that. "You should have listened to your mentors." About 12 or 13 years ago, I made a switch to Mormon history and religious history.

GT  07:35  Of which we are very grateful.

Matt  07:37  Thank you. I really enjoyed early America. I still do. I teach it, and I still publish in the field, but mostly my energies and efforts have turned to Mormon history where—let me say one thing that's, I think, fascinating. Sometimes people ask me why? Why Mormon history? And one, it's my heritage. So there's that. But the other one is, from a practical standpoint, I have a colleague who teaches Roman history, and frequently, she has to go to Rome to get source material.

GT  08:08  There's not worse places to go.

Matt  08:10  No, there's not. But it's really, really difficult, especially during COVID, especially gathering grant funds to go. It's expensive to fly to Rome. For me, I get-- Latter-day Saints will send me stuff by email attachment. I can get my sources right there in my home office, in my pajamas. I live in Colorado, and the archive, most of the most important archives, as you know, Rick, are in Utah at the Church History Library or the Church Archives, University of Utah, BYU Utah State, the Utah Historical Society. And then there's a few other scattered Mormon archives around the country that are important, one at Yale, one at the Huntington Library in Pasadena, California. So I get access to sources easily. Even with early America, I had to go back east to get into the archives in Philadelphia and New York and other places. So, it's really an embarrassment of riches, especially when people send you things. But when I come to Utah, I'm able to criss-cross these different archives and take my phone out and just start snapping pictures. It's so easy in the digital age.

 

 

Pres McKay, FDR, & Lyndon Johnson

GT  09:24  Let me ask you this, because I remember, I guess it's been two years, one or two years ago, John Whitmer Association was in Texas, and you took off to go to the Lyndon Johnson Library. Was that Mormon related or not?

Matt  09:42  No, not so much. I mean, a tiny bit. It was mostly because I had never been before.   Lyndon Johnson is really interesting for Latter-day Saints. Your listeners may not know this, but we tend to think that the Church has always been conservative. But in the 1960s Utahns supported the Great Society. This is probably the one or two most liberal government programs in the history of this country.

GT  10:11  Yeah. And Lyndon Johnson was the last Democrat Utah voted for.

Matt  10:15  That's correct. And Lyndon Johnson, believe it or not, was a good friend to David O. McKay.

GT  10:21  Oh, I didn't know that.

Matt  10:21  Yes, and that's really hard to hear or understand, rather, because President McKay was a pretty intense conservative. And when--let's see. Let me get this right. In 1952 when Eisenhower won election for the first time in the presidential campaign, David O. McKay wrote a friend, and he said, jokingly, he said, "With Ike's election, we know there really is a God." And I mean, I laughed when I read that, because that just shows you that President McKay wanted a Republican to win office, and just thought, you know, divine favor at work here.

GT  11:02  Well this is after the--it almost felt like two decades of FDR. Right?