History was made Sunday night in Independence, Missouri. The Community of Christ gathered for the election and ordination of the 1st female prophet president in Community of Christ. It was a a momentous occasion. The focus of the event was Stassi Cramm, who was anticipated to take on this significant leadership role, following Steven Veazey’s retirement. She became the 1st female prophet-president of Community of Christ, and just the 2nd female leader of a Restoration Church since Pauline Hancock.

https://youtu.be/y63w2GfFc8Y

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Independence, MO – June 1st, 2025 marked a truly historic day for the Community of Christ, as Stassi Cramm was officially ordained as the new prophet-president. This momentous event, which occurred during the Community of Christ World Conference in Independence, not only signifies a new chapter for the church but also positions Cramm as the first female prophet-president of the Community of Christ. She is also recognized as one of the few female leaders in the broader Restoration movement, following Pauline Hancock.

The atmosphere leading up to the ordination was charged with anticipation and excitement. The World Conference began with procedural matters, including a review of rules and the dissolution of the First Presidency. On May 31st, 2025, Stassi Cramm formally accepted her nomination for the role.

Throughout May 31st, caucus meetings were held to discuss the upcoming vote25. Reports from these meetings indicated strong support for Stassi Cramm. The evangelist quorum showed “full support,” and in the high priest quorum, “nobody opposed,” although some individuals did abstain from voting. While some anticipated that the vote might not be entirely unanimous, the overall sentiment suggested a “slam dunk.” The vote itself was scheduled for 2:00 PM Central time on June 1st, 2025.

The ordination service itself was described as “amazing” and “spirit-filled.” Attendees enthusiastically sang “The Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning.” There was a palpable sense of “hope” and inspiration among the congregants. The anthem “We’ll Rise and we’ll Shout!” was notably sung with great passion, with the organist deeply engaged. Deb Luce remarked on the excitement, expressing that Stassi Cramm had “sparked that [hope] a little bit more” and emphasized the importance of holding onto existing doctrines.

For those who might harbor reservations about female ordination, the message was clear: “harden not your hearts” and “allow the spirit to speak.” It was also highlighted that “the voice of God is not a spirit of contention” and that “God won’t divide us.”

Stassi Cramm’s ordination as prophet-president on June 1st, 2025, is a significant milestone, making her the first woman to hold this top leadership position in the Community of Christ. This historic occasion was eagerly awaited, with many anticipating it would be a “history making day.” As one witness to the event noted, it was “awesome” to be there for this moment. Stassi went on to reorganize the Council of 12 Apostles. With some retiring and reassigning others, 6 new apostles were called; Mareva Tchong was reassigned from President of the Apostles to become the new Presiding Evangelist (what LDS would call the Presiding Patriarch.)

It was awesome to attend World Conference and witness the 1st female prophet be ordained in the Community of Christ. I’m hoping to get Stassi Cramm on an interview in September. I hope it happens!

Check out the video to witness the events of this historic event! What are your thoughts on the news?

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The Community of Christ has sold the Kirtland Temple and several Nauvoo properties to the LDS Church for a jaw-dropping $200 million. But RLDS finances are still shaky! That money is only expected to keep the church afloat for about five years. Historian John Hamer joins us to explain why he thinks the deal could have been much better, why he’s disappointed there are still no openly gay apostles, and to share his brutally honest thoughts on Steven Veazey’s leadership. Stick around—this conversation pulls no punches.

John is the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism.

https://youtu.be/F3sTvJCWD3c

Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/

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The recent sale of the Kirtland Temple sent shockwaves through the Latter Day Saint movement, and for the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS). It highlighted significant and ongoing financial challenges. John Hamer, a Community of Christ historian and Seventy, has offered candid insights into the church’s financial state, the controversial temple sale, and his hopes for the future.

The sale of the Kirtland Temple to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) for less than $200 million was a deeply troubling event for many in the Community of Christ. John Hamer describes the price as a “pittance,” emphasizing that the property’s value, particularly in terms of “legitimacy” for the LDS Church, is “priceless” and far exceeds the sale amount. He provocatively suggests that the LDS Church, with its “hundreds of billions of dollars,” would not sell the temple for even $200 billion.

A major point of contention was the lack of transparency and consultation surrounding the sale. The decision was made “in secret,” without any input from the World Conference, the church’s “giant legislature”. This went against historical precedent, as a previous General Conference had determined that a revelation would be necessary to sell the Kirtland Temple, which had originally been built by revelation.

Hamer views the sale as a missed opportunity, stating that it was sold for “a third of what was necessary” for the church to achieve a “sustainable endowment for operations” (which he estimates would have required $600 million.) He suggested that a wealthy family foundation within the Community of Christ could have acquired the assets for the same price, held them as an investment, and then sold them to the LDS Church for a significantly higher amount later, but this option was not considered.

The Kirtland Temple sale is just one symptom of deeper financial struggles within the Community of Christ:

Hamer is critical of the leadership during this period, suggesting that Steve Veazey should have “take[n] responsibility for the fact that all of this financial loss schemes had happening on your watch and resign yourself”. He contrasts Veazey’s tenure, which he describes as “unmitigated decline,” with earlier presidents like Joseph Smith III and Fred M. Smith, who oversaw significant church growth and modernization.

Despite the financial challenges, Hamer expresses hope for the future under the new prophet-president, Stassi Cramm. He describes her ordination as “electric” and highlights her “incredible competence” and extensive experience as a presiding bishop and apostle.

Hamer believes that Cramm has the potential to lead the church toward necessary reforms. He advocates for her to establish a constitutional system for leadership oversight and responsible government, moving beyond a “fixed chain of succession” or a “prophetic monarchy”. This would allow the church to fully embrace its calling to be a “prophetic people,” where all members have input and leaders are accountable. He even suggests term limits for the president, such as a six-year term with the possibility of renewal. Such reforms, he argues, would retroactively legitimize Cramm and her successors by grounding leadership in the collective discernment of the church.

Furthermore, Hamer finds inspiration in the decentralized and innovative spirit within the Community of Christ:

While the financial situation at headquarters remains a concern, Hamer is hopeful that Stassi Cramm’s leadership and the self-empowered efforts of the “prophetic people” within the Community of Christ can guide the church toward a meaningful and growing future.

Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/

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Last Spring, John Hamer gave a monumental address about RLDS succession at the JWHA Meetings that literally changed RLDS History. Pres-prophet Steven Veazey had announced his pending retirement in 2 years and said he would choose a successor. John argued in his address that if Veazey did so, it would make his presidency illegitimate as well as whoever he picked. So, the process was changed as a result of his address. He’ll give more details. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/2rQnCWIYxqE

John is the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism.

Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/

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Historically, leadership in the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS), now Community of Christ, was heavily influenced by the Joseph Smith lineage. Joseph Smith III’s succession, recognized by the General Conference (World Conference), established two pillars of legitimacy: appointment by the predecessor and the “royal line” of Joseph Smith, which was seen as holy according to the Book of Mormon. William Smith, brother of Joseph Smith, actively promoted the idea of a Smith “royal seed,” drawing parallels to James, the brother of Jesus, leading the early Christian church.

However, this tradition soon saw shifts. Joseph III’s son, Frederick M. Smith, introduced the concept of “supreme directional control,” concentrating power in the First Presidency, which he led. This led to significant internal conflicts, including the resignation of the entire Presiding Bishopric and the departure of prominent figures like R.C. Evans, who felt sidelined despite his own aspirations for leadership.

The Smith lineage continued through Joseph III’s sons until Wallace B. Smith, a grandson, took the helm. He was a “progressive leader” who, in 1984, initiated the end of priesthood discrimination based on gender (D&C 156), a move that led to schism within the church as “restorationist” groups broke away. Importantly, Wallace B. Smith broke from the Smith lineage tradition by appointing a non-Smith, W. Grant McMurray, as his successor.

Grant McMurray’s tenure marked another pivotal shift. In D&C 162, he articulated a vision of the church as a “prophetic people, not just a people with a prophet,” introducing a new pillar of legitimacy that emphasized discernment and input from the wider church body. This concept challenged the previous monarchical tendencies and opened the door for more democratic forms of leadership.

Grant McMurray’s abrupt resignation in 2004, without appointing a successor, created a succession crisis, effectively breaking the chain of appointment. In response, a special World Conference was called, and the First Presidency assigned the Council of Twelve Apostles to choose the next prophet, who turned out to be Steve Veazey.

Steve Veazey’s 20-year presidency, however, was marked by significant financial struggles for the church, leading to an “unmitigated decline”. This culminated in the controversial sale of the historic Kirtland Temple for less than $200 million. Critics, including historian John Hamer, argued that the sale was conducted “in secret” and for “a pittance,” insufficient for the church’s long-term financial sustainability. The World Conference had previously required a revelation to sell the Kirtland Temple, highlighting the lack of transparency in the recent transaction.

Adding to the controversy, Steve Veazey announced a plan to personally select his successor. John Hamer publicly argued that this move would “retroactively completely delegitimize” Veazey’s tenure and render his chosen successor illegitimate, as it contradicted the principle of a “prophetic people” and the broken chain of appointment.

Fortunately, during an unexplained medical leave by Steve Veazey, his succession plan was suspended. The Council of Twelve once again stepped in to choose the next prophet, leading to the ordination of Stacy Cramm. This process, though not a direct popular vote, allowed her to emerge with greater legitimacy, aligning with the principle of a “prophetic people” rather than a sole appointment by a predecessor. Hamer sees her leadership as an opportunity for the church to finally establish a robust constitutional system of responsible governance.

A the Spring meeting of JWHA, John made a proposal of term limits for the prophet. A six-year term with the possibility of a second term is being suggested as a way to ensure accountability and responsiveness, moving away from indefinite tenure. This aligns with the long-standing practice within Community of Christ congregations, where pastors are chosen by their local congregations rather than being appointed from headquarters. Pastors can be removed by the congregation as well.

At the most recent World Conference, a resolution was approved to establish a constitutional/bylaw committee. This committee will explore these issues, with the hope of developing a system that allows for greater input from the church’s members while protecting minority rights from potential “tyranny of the majority”. President Cramm, possessing “supreme directional control,” has the authority to implement such changes and has expressed an openness to addressing the church’s challenges.

Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/

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John Hamer makes the surprising argument that the Auditorium is, in fact, a Community of Christ temple on the Temple Lot!  This is a claim even many RLDS members have never heard. Why does he say this? It ties back to the unfinished temple project of the Church of Christ (Temple Lot), also known as the Hedrickites. For a time, the two churches were essentially constructing rival temples side by side on the historic temple lot. Join us as we dive into this fascinating story!

https://youtu.be/eWnSy5Qeh9k

John is the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism.

Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/

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The concept and construction of temples have been a central, yet often contentious, aspect of the Restoration movement. While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) is well-known for its extensive temple building, other branches of the Restoration tradition have also grappled with their own unique visions and challenges regarding sacred spaces. Historian John Hamer sheds light on the fascinating, and sometimes fraught, history of temple competition and diverse practices among groups like the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS), the Hedrickites, Strangites, and Cutlerites.

For the Community of Christ, the idea of a “temple” has taken on multiple forms, leading to what some might see as competing sacred spaces.

The Church of Christ (Temple Lot), also know as the Hedrickites the earliest Restoration branch to return to Jackson County, Missouri. They hold a key portion of “the Temple Lot”. This property was part of a much larger parcel Edward Partridge originally bought for a total of 24 temples.

Beyond the Community of Christ and Hedrickites, other smaller Restoration movement churches have distinct approaches to temple work and sacred ordinances.

The diverse histories of these Restoration movement branches illustrate not only the enduring significance of temples and sacred ordinances but also the varied paths different groups have taken to define and enact their understanding of divine directives and community identity.

Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/

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The struggle for leadership of the LDS Church between Sidney Rigdon and Brigham Young still echoes today. One lasting outcome is the practice of dissolving the First Presidency at the prophet’s death—a move meant to underscore that Rigdon was never recognized as Joseph Smith’s rightful successor. Historian John Hamer of the Community of Christ joins us to examine Rigdon’s claims, even arguing that Sidney may have had the strongest case for leadership. We’ll also explore the church Rigdon established, now the third-largest “Mormon” denomination. Don’t miss this fascinating discussion!

https://youtu.be/jWzGoa9LXXQ

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We delve deep into the complexities of LDS (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and RLDS (Community of Christ) succession after the death of Joseph Smith in 1844, and how this crisis shaped the leadership structures and beliefs of both churches.

◦ William Marks and the Standing High Council: William Marks, president of the Standing High Council, was seen as a rival to Brigham Young. The Standing High Council, which had previously held equal or even superior authority to the traveling Quorum of the Twelve, particularly in organized stakes, was effectively demoted into stake high councils. This move eliminated an institutional rival and concentrated power.

◦ Presiding Bishopric: Similarly, the powerful role of the Presiding Bishop, who controlled temporalities and could act as a leadership rival, was demoted by Brigham Young, who created numerous bishops, reducing the role to a congregational position.

◦ Appointment by Predecessor: Joseph Smith Jr. had indicated his son as a successor, supported by a verse in the Doctrine and Covenants stating the prophet has “power… to appoint another in his stead”. Joseph Smith III himself later emphasized this “appointment” principle for future successions.

◦ Royal Line of Joseph: Many members desired a leader from the “seed of Joseph” (the Smith family line). This idea was heavily promoted by William Smith, Joseph Jr.’s brother, who published pamphlets arguing for the importance of lineage, citing the Book of Mormon and the New Testament example of James (Jesus’s brother) leading the early Christian church. William Smith was a problematic figure, excommunicated for polygamy, but his arguments influenced the early Reorganization.

◦ Frederick Madison Smith: Joseph Smith III’s eldest son, with a Ph.D., became the third prophet-president. He differed significantly from his father, aiming to modernize and bureaucratize the church.

◦ “Supreme Directional Control”: F.M. Smith introduced this controversial policy, vesting supreme control in the First Presidency. This led to a major conflict with his brother, Israel A. Smith, who was in the Presiding Bishopric, resulting in the entire Presiding Bishopric’s resignation. F.M. Smith ultimately used a “prophetic trump card”—a revelation—to assert his authority.

◦ RC Evans: Joseph Smith III’s talented first counselor and orator, who expected to be appointed successor. When F.M. Smith was appointed instead, Evans became very critical. Despite being granted the significant role of Presiding Bishop of Canada, he continued to oppose F.M. Smith and eventually left the church, taking a large portion of the Toronto congregation to form his own church. RC Evans died shortly thereafter in the Spanish flu pandemic, and his church eventually dissolved.

The discussion also briefly touches on the Kirtland Temple, where the RLDS Church (Community of Christ) did not permit weddings or baptisms for the dead due to a desire to avoid association with LDS temple practices. John Hamer personally distinguishes between “temples” (like Kirtland) and “endowment houses” (smaller, standardized LDS temples), based on the level of sacrifice involved in their construction.

Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/

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We’ll discuss controversial RLDS beliefs with John Hamer, a Seventy with the Community of Christ. We’re focusing on the 1844 succession crisis, its lasting impact on both the LDS and Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) churches. He’s the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism. Don’t miss this fascinating discussion!

https://youtu.be/mscrLYLKZs0

00:00 How 1844 Succession Affects Us Today

8:15 How Baptism For Dead Was De-canonized

14:22 Will Book of Mormon Be De-canonized?

24:10 Black Priesthood in Community of Christ

36:37 3 Official Languages in CoC

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◦ The 1844 schism “froze” both churches into peculiar systems, as each justified its own succession to assert legitimacy.

◦ LDS Church Succession: Brigham Young’s claim relied on his position as the senior-most apostle, a concept that was not established doctrine in 1844 but emerged from the crisis.

◦ Community of Christ (RLDS) Succession: Joseph Smith III’s claim was supported by patriarchal blessings and prophecies. His acceptance of the prophet role in 1860 solidified the General Conference’s (legislative) authority to choose the prophet. Sidney Rigdon also made a claim to leadership, presenting himself as a “guardian of the church.”

◦ The Mark Hofmann forgery of Joseph Smith Jr.’s blessing to Joseph Smith III is discussed, noting its incorrect date caused dissonance Jerald & Sandra Tanner. It was acquired by the LDS Church, which then traded it to the RLDS Church for a copy of the Book of Commandments. The RLDS Church put it in the appendix of their version of the Doctrine & Covenants & then later removed this forgery from its historical appendix through a “historical appendectomy.”

◦ The Community of Christ’s Doctrine and Covenants is an active scripture, with new sections added through votes by elected representatives at World Conferences. The conference also has the power to remove sections, which it has done several times.

◦ Baptism for the Dead: This practice was removed from the RLDS Doctrine and Covenants, largely due to the church’s desire to distance itself from associations with LDS temples and practices, particularly those perceived as “secret” or “embarrassing.” John Hamer expresses a nuanced view, considering it meaningless as a necessary saving ordinance for random names but “incredibly valid and amazing” as a spiritual practice for connecting with cherished ancestors (e.g., Jane Manning James).

◦ Blacks in the Priesthood (RLDS): Joseph Smith III’s 1860s revelation allowed black men to hold the priesthood but included a racist caveat to “be not hasty” in ordaining them, reflecting the prevailing societal racism of the 1860s. A recent World Conference resolution to remove this section was voted down, with John Hamer arguing against removal to avoid setting a precedent of “Jefferson Bible” editing scripture.

◦ De-canonization of the Book of Mormon: There’s a “dig” (and potential validity) that the Community of Christ “doesn’t believe in the Book of Mormon” in the same way other groups do. Some leaders and members, traumatized by the “New Mormon History” and historical-literary criticism suggesting the Book of Mormon is a 19th-century construct, have proposed to “jettison all of this stuff.” However, others, especially older members, find it essential to their identity. John Hamer “firmly anticipates” a resolution to remove the Book of Mormon from the canon, though he personally opposes it.

◦ John Hamer advocates for viewing scripture as “errant, not inerrant.” He believes scripture is a “human response to God’s revelation,” filled with the “biases and limitations of every prophet.”

◦ He argues against treating scripture as a “perfect idol” or a “literalistic rule book,” emphasizing that doing so misses its true meaning and prevents growth. He compares attempts to remove “pseudepigraphic” books (like some Pauline or Petrine letters) to treating the Book of Mormon, or even the Old Testament Book of Daniel (which he calls a “pious fraud”), as disposable.

◦ The World Conference functions as a “giant legislature” where resolutions are debated and voted upon.

◦ The Community of Christ has three official languages: English, French, and Spanish. A resolution to put all scriptures online in these languages was narrowly voted down, with the official pretext being cost, but John Hamer believes the real reason was a desire by some leaders to minimize exposure to elements like the Book of Mormon they find embarrassing.

◦ The church’s control over intellectual property is criticized, particularly regarding the Kirtland Temple, where photos were forbidden, hindering its use as a missionary tool.

◦ The conversation touches on the resignation of Israel A. Smith (presiding bishop) and Fred Smith’s use of a “prophetic trump card” (revelation) to pass a decision.

The episode serves as a deep dive into the historical complexities, theological evolution, and ongoing challenges faced by the Community of Christ, contrasting its journey with that of the LDS Church.

Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/

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I’m excited to welcome John Hamer back to the show. John is a Seventy in the Community of Christ and a remarkable historian of Restoration Churches. Earlier this month, he was in Utah for the 50th Anniversary of Sunstone, and today we’ll be talking about the many ways to Mormon, including some of the Restoration Churches/schismatic groups that were represented at Sunstone. This episode will be part of a broader conversation about various Latter Day Saint schismatic movements. Join us for the discussion!

https://youtu.be/1-hvle_929o

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The recent 50th anniversary of the Sunstone Symposium in Utah provided a unique opportunity to delve into the rich and diverse landscape of the Mormon culture and restoration heritage. John Hamer is a three-time guest on Gospel Tangents and a Seventy with the Community of Christ. Sunstone serves as an “open diverse forum” that welcomes individuals from all backgrounds, whether they are orthodox LDS, fundamentalists, or members of the Community of Christ. This gathering truly embodies the idea that there is “more than one way to Mormon”.

There are various schismatic groups that emerged after the pivotal 1844 schism which Joseph Smith died. These groups form distinct branches of the restoration tradition, each with its own unique history and practices.

Following the 1844 schism, two primary branches emerged:

◦ The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church).

◦ All of the fundamentalist churches, such as the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) which is also called “The Work”, & the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS Church).

◦ The “new emerging remnant movement” with Denver Snuffer.

◦ Independent expressions or “restorationists”. These groups broke away from the mainline Community of Christ Church over issues like women in the priesthood and lineal succession. Some of these have grouped together in a confederacy of churches, like the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB. See our interview with apostle Patrick McKay.)

◦ The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is considered a “restorationist church” by Josephites. Figures like Terry Patience, the new prophet-president, and Jim Vun Cannon have been prominent within this church. (Jim now leads a different church, the Everlasting Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Day.) These “Josephite fundamentalists” are distinct from polygamists.

Sunstone also provides a platform for understanding smaller, yet historically significant, schismatic groups:

◦ They are generally considered the third largest branch to emerge after the 1844 schism, with an estimated 25,000 members.

◦ They see themselves as “the true one true church” and are noted for retaining spiritual gifts from the Kirtland era, including speaking in tongues and spontaneous services. Their services feature spontaneous talks and no pre-written bulletins, similar to practices found in the Centennial Park group.

◦ Their heartlands are primarily in Pittsburgh and Detroit.

◦ Notably, they have recently produced an academically trained historian, Daniel Stone, who has focused on William Bickerton and their own history. His book is highly recommended.

◦ They maintain an “interesting and intact early Mormon gathering place” in Voree, Wisconsin, with stone houses, a temple site, and other historical locations from the 1840s.

◦ They are Seventh Day Sabbatarians, holding church services on Saturdays.

◦ Their class discussions often involve opening their “fourth book of restoration scripture,” the Book of the Law of the Lord, and discussing revelations from James Strang.

The Sunstone Symposium’s 50th anniversary coincided with significant anniversaries for other institutions of “New Mormon history,” such as the John Whitmer Historical Association (JWHA) and the Mormon History Association (MHA), both reaching their 50-year marks. This period, starting in the 1950s and 60s, saw a critical re-evaluation of Mormon history through academic scholarship.

Key figures and works that shaped this field include:

John Hamer also shed light on the Community of Christ’s distinct organizational structure. Unlike the LDS Church, where the First Presidency is an extension of the Quorum of the Twelve, the Community of Christ’s apostles are specifically a “traveling quorum” focused on missionary work in the field, not based at headquarters. The world is divided among these twelve apostles, with assignments rearranging at each world conference.

Recent changes include a “huge turnover” with six new apostles and a significant scrambling of apostolic fields, with some fields, like the USA, now having multiple apostles. For example, Apostle Lach MacKay, who previously covered the northeastern United States and historic sites, is now responsible for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific Islands, and Europe.

The discussions at Sunstone, like those with John Hamer, offer invaluable insights into the complex and continually unfolding story of the restoration tradition, celebrating its diverse expressions and grappling with its challenging past. Tell us about your experiences at Sunstone!

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Following the dissolution of her marriage, Sonia Johnson came up with her own view of gender essentialism and had some lesbian relationships. Was she bisexual, or a political lesbian? Dr Chris Talbot explains. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/glgWdkMlcJ8

Don’t miss our other episodes with Dr Chris Talbot! https://gospeltangents.com/people/chris-talbot/

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In a fascinating deep dive with biographer Dr. Chris Talbot, we’ll dive into the life of Mormon feminist Sonia Johnson, particularly after her divorce and excommunication from the LDS Church, we gain intriguing insights into her evolving relationships, her radical philosophy, and the church’s complex involvement in the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) debate.

One of the most striking ironies discussed is how the church and conservatives worried that passing the ERA would lead to widespread lesbianism and homosexuality, only for Sonia Johnson herself to become a lesbian. This development, however, was framed less as a sexual reorientation in the conventional sense and more as a “political lesbianism.” This phenomenon, as described by historians, involved a conscious choice to devote oneself to women as a collective or “species,” building one’s life around these devotions, which inherently meant avoiding intimate relationships with men. For Johnson, this commitment stemmed from her profound desire to reject male-centered, patriarchal societal structures; she declared, “No man will ever become the center of my life again”.

The nature of her sexuality is explored with nuance, acknowledging that sexuality is fluid and not always confined to “discrete categories”. While Johnson had four children and didn’t seem to have a history of sexual attraction to women prior to her excommunication, this attraction reportedly “grew in her as she moved along” after the traumatic experience. The question of whether she was a “fake lesbian” or “real lesbian” is dismissed as largely a matter of “socially constructed categories”.

Sonia Johnson’s post-excommunication relationships were not without their challenges. Her first lesbian relationship, with her therapist, ended poorly due to ethical issues and her partner’s managerial role. This experience profoundly shaped Johnson’s philosophy on relationships, culminating in her fourth book, The Ship That Sailed into the Living Room.

At the heart of her critique was the idea that relationships, by their very nature, are built around hierarchy. Johnson articulated a discomfort with the “driving and being driven” dynamic in sexual encounters, finding it personally, politically, and philosophically troubling. She argued that even in alternating roles, relationships inherently embed a power imbalance.

This anti-hierarchy stance extended to her view on monogamy and marriage. She didn’t want anyone to marry anyone, viewing monogamous commitments as inherently “restrictive and controlling” of one’s sexuality and love. Interestingly, her critique resonated with a small polyamory community in Salt Lake City, who saw her work as a guide to why monogamy was problematic due to its inherent hierarchy.

After another unsuccessful relationship, Johnson eventually found a long-term partner, Jade Deforest. Their relationship is built on a unique “touching experiment,” detailed in her fifth book, Out of This World. The core principle is self-motivated touching – touching for the pleasure of the act itself, rather than to elicit a specific feeling in the other person. This approach aims to eliminate the perceived hierarchy, as “someone’s driving and someone’s being driven”. This experimental approach has led to a seemingly successful and lasting relationship for Johnson.

The discussion also delved into the highly contested facts surrounding the LDS Church’s involvement in the ERA movement. The exact extent and nature of the church’s activism are “mushy” and disputed, with even basic facts like the appointment of official spokesperson Beverly Campbell being unclear.

A significant point of contention is “plausible deniability.” While church leaders like Beverly Campbell claimed that “citizens councils” were not official arms of the church, they openly admitted to using the church’s existing hierarchy, such as phone trees, because “it’s there”. This mirrors the arguments used during California’s Prop 8 campaign, where the Church similarly denied direct involvement despite evidence of significant influence and similar funding models.

A key figure repeatedly mentioned in these events is President Hinckley, who appears to be a “common denominator” in Special Affairs, the ERA controversy, and later discussions around gay marriage. However, without a “smoking gun” like his diaries, definitive scholarly statements about his intent for plausible deniability cannot be made.

The complexity boils down to how one defines “the Church”. If the Church is viewed solely as a formal, structural organization, then arguments for its non-involvement in citizens’ councils hold some weight. However, if “the Church” is understood as a broader “culture, a community, an imagined community,” with unspoken expectations and rules, then it becomes much harder to argue that the Church wasn’t involved. The situation is likened to a “grassy knoll” scenario, where the truth remains ambiguous and depends on one’s perspective.

This conversation offers a rare glimpse into the personal and political life of Sonia Johnson, highlighting her unconventional path and her profound philosophical critiques of societal norms, particularly regarding relationships. It also underscores the enduring ambiguity surrounding the historical actions of institutions like the LDS Church when engaging in political movements.

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This is a rebroadcast. The 1838 Mormon Missouri War remains a pivotal and often tragic chapter in Latter-day Saint history. We’re revisiting an interview with Steven LeSueur, an esteemed historian and author of what is considered by many to be the definitive book on the conflict, “The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri.” LeSueur, who sadly passed away in July 2025, was remembered for his significant contributions to understanding this complex period.

https://youtu.be/YGlNLnA9RIA

LeSueur, who lived in Arlington, Virginia, was not a full-time historian. He described his career primarily as a journalist, covering national defense issues, editing a technology magazine, and working as a freelance writer for businesses before his retirement. Despite this, his historical expertise was profound. His seminal book, published in 1987 by the University of Missouri Press, originated from his master’s thesis in American history at George Mason University.

His interest in Missouri history stemmed from early research work he did for Lamar Barrett at BYU in 1976-1977, immediately after graduating with his undergraduate history degree from BYU. This early work involved delving into diaries and letters to find references to “Adam’s altar” (Adam-ondi-Ahman) and exploring various historical sites in Missouri. For his book, LeSueur conducted extensive research at the Library of Congress, Utah archives, and multiple trips to Missouri, even staying with prominent Community of Christ historian Bill Russell, who, along with Valeen Tippets Avery, reviewed his manuscript.

LeSueur also lent his expertise to a documentary called “Trouble in Zion,” where he was one of several “talking heads” discussing the Mormon experience in Missouri, sharing his interpretations of the events.

LeSueur’s approach to the Mormon Missouri War focuses on understanding how events unfolded, emphasizing a snowball effect of reactions rather than a grand conspiracy. While recognizing the immense suffering of the Mormons, he seeks to explain why Missourians reacted as they did.

◦ The Gallatin Election Battle in August 1838 saw Missourians attempt to prevent Mormons from voting in Davies County, leading to Danite involvement.

◦ The Siege of Dewitt by Carroll County vigilantes led to Mormons surrendering and retreating to Far West after Governor Boggs refused to provide state aid.

◦ In response, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon rallied Mormons on October 14, declaring they would “live off the land of our enemies”. Mormon forces, including many Danites, then engaged in widespread burning and plundering of non-Mormon properties in Davies County, including Gallatin and Millport, actions that occurred while Joseph Smith was present. LeSueur differs from some historians by asserting these actions were not just by “extremists” but were known and condoned by Joseph Smith, leading Missourians to view Mormons as being in rebellion.

◦ The Battle of Crooked River on October 25 occurred when Mormons, led by David W. Patten, attacked Captain Samuel Bogart’s militia to free captured Mormon spies. Patten was killed. LeSueur believes the Missourians were genuinely defending themselves, not “baiting” the Mormons.

◦ This culminated in Governor Lilburn Boggs issuing the infamous “Extermination Order” on October 27, declaring Mormons “enemies of the state”.

◦ The Hawn’s Mill Massacre on October 30, where 17 Mormons were killed, occurred before the extermination order was widely known. LeSueur agrees that had the order reached the attackers, it might have prevented the massacre.

LeSueur points out that while the Mormons eventually gained sympathy and were wronged, their actions, particularly the burning and plundering in Davies County, contributed significantly to the Missourians’ perception of them as aggressive and rebellious. He emphasizes that many Missourians were initially sympathetic but lost that sympathy as the conflict escalated.

Steven LeSueur’s “The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri” remains an invaluable resource for understanding the complexities and unfolding events of this tragic period in American and Mormon history.

0:00 Mapping Mormon History in Missouri

This is a re-broadcast of my 2023 interview with Steve LeSueur. Unfortunately Steve passed away from pancreatic cancer on July 1, 2025.

Mormons were part of the untamed world of the Wild West—complete with outlaws, shootouts, and the kind of drama you’d expect straight out of a western film. In this episode, Steve LeSueur shares the gripping story of his great-uncle Frank LeSueur and his friend Gus Gibbons, who were murdered by the notorious outlaw gang known as The Wild Bunch. There’s even a surprising connection to the infamous Butch Cassidy. Join us as we explore the real dangers Mormons faced on the frontier. Don’t miss our conversation…

https://youtu.be/QcPqQ7TQPrE

Don’t miss our other conversations with Steve: https://gospeltangents.com/people/steve-lesueur/

Copyright © 2025

Gospel Tangents

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Today, we’re sharing a powerful story that highlights the often-overlooked human cost of the Wild West era, brought to life by a historian who deeply personal connection to the past. We’re talking about Steve LeSueur, a wonderful historian and author who sadly passed away in July 2025 due to pancreatic cancer. This post is a tribute to his work and his last interview on Gospel Tangents, where he discussed his remarkable book, Life and Death on the Mormon Frontier: The Murders of Frank LeSueur and Gus Gibbons by The Wild Bunch, published by Greg Kofford Books.

Steve LeSueur was driven to explore a piece of his own family history that had been shrouded in mystery for generations. His great-uncle, Frank LeSueur, was murdered by outlaws in 1900. While his family always knew Frank was killed, the details were scarce, and the killers were believed to have gotten away with little effort to capture them. His grandfather, Carl LeSueur, Frank’s younger brother, was only five when Frank was killed and didn’t have many details to share. For over a century, it was largely considered “some minor episode in western history”.

However, in recent years, historians and biographers specializing in outlaws like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid began to point fingers. These historians, some of whom had Mormon ties, suggested that Butch Cassidy’s Wild Bunch gang were the likely culprits behind Frank’s death. This new information ignited Steve’s interest, drawing him into a deeper investigation.

What truly set Steve’s work apart was his unique perspective: focusing on the victims. As he noted, historians often prioritize the outlaws, their daring heists, and exciting getaways, treating victims as mere “bit players” or “extras in a movie”. Steve, however, looked at the events from the victim’s point of view, reading journals, diaries, and reminiscences left behind by Latter-day Saints in the community. He discovered a compelling story that offered numerous insights into both the outlaws and the community itself. It turns out, not many people have an ancestor killed by a famous outlaw.

Despite the year being 1900, which might sound somewhat modern, the setting for this tragedy was truly still the Wild West. Frank LeSueur’s murder occurred just outside St. Johns, Arizona, a “dusty cattle and sheep town”. In 1900, this town had no electricity and no running water. It was an era where cars and airplanes were not yet commonplace.

Steve LeSueur’s research has profoundly enhanced our understanding of this specific Wild West tragedy, shifting the narrative to those who suffered the most. His book stands as a vital contribution to history, reminding us that every “bit player” has a story worth telling. We miss Steve greatly, and our hearts go out to his family.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Steve: https://gospeltangents.com/people/steve-lesueur/

Copyright © 2025

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.