Janice Allred was excommunicated just over 30 years ago, but still attends the LDS Church!!! Why? She will talk about why she stays, and offer advice to others on how to stay if they want to. We’ll discuss how it affects her family, her testimony, and we’ll even dive into why current polygamy revisionists are getting into trouble with LDS Church leaders. Check out our conversation!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O8H-QXlDPw

What does it look like to remain dedicated to a faith community that has formally cast you out? For Janice Allred, a “philosophical theologian” who was excommunicated in 1995, the answer is found in showing up every Sunday for over thirty years. Allred, the sister of fellow scholar Margaret Toscano, was disciplined primarily for her writings on “God the Mother“ and her critiques of church authority, yet she remains a fixture in her local ward.

When asked the “Sunstone question” of why she stays, Allred’s first response is simple: “Because I want to”. Her deeper motivations are rooted in her identity as a follower of Jesus Christ, noting that He encouraged His followers to meet together often to strengthen one another. Furthermore, she feels a profound connection to the revelations of Joseph Smith, including the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, and wants to worship where those texts are accepted as scripture.

The road has not been easy. For the first five to ten years after her excommunication, Allred describes being treated like a “pariah” and was largely ignored by her ward members. She recalls a poignant moment five years in when a fellow ward member simply said “Hello,” and she nearly broke into tears because so few had spoken to her during that time.

The turning point was a house fire. While the community struggled to know how to respond to her theological dissent, they knew exactly how to help a family in a physical crisis. Today, she is a regular participant in Sunday school and Relief Society, though she is denied the sacrament, which she describes as the hardest part of her experience.

Allred offers a unique perspective for those struggling with their faith: be an observer. She navigates the tension of hearing things she disagrees with—such as the “adulation” of church leadership or the Proclamation on the Family—by taking a step back and viewing the meetings through a sociological or theological lens. She does not feel the need to agree with everything said from the pulpit to feel that she belongs to the “invisible church” of true followers of Christ.

Perhaps most surprising is Allred’s stance as a “polygamy revisionist.” Through her theological studies, she became convinced that Joseph Smith neither taught nor practiced polygamy, and she views Section 132 as a later forgery or a text contrary to the gospel. While this view challenges the lineage of authority from Brigham Young, she maintains that her primary goal is seeking what is true according to her own conscience and inspiration.

Janice Allred’s journey is a testament to self-authorship in faith. She remains a “member of the ward” in spirit, even if not on the records, proving that for some, the community of Christ is worth the discomfort of dissent.

What do you think of Janice’s persistence for 30+ years?

We focus heavily on the turbulent history of the physical temple lot in Independence, Missouri, and the controversial figure of apostle Otto Fetting. Daniel Malone, a Sunday school teacher for the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) gives his insights.

https://youtu.be/xqRZPoyaUqk

Don’t miss our other conversations on Hedrickites: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/Hedrickites/

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During the 1920s, the RLDS Church experienced a major schism over “supreme directional control,” which led to a massive influx of former RLDS members joining the Church of Christ. This sudden growth swelled the Independence congregation from roughly 250 to nearly 600 members. Amidst an era of intense theological debates, the Church of Christ made a monumental organizational change in 1925: they completely abolished the office of a presiding elder (or president), choosing instead to be led collectively by a Quorum of Twelve Apostles. However, Malone candidly admits that the early church had a “horrible track record” of electing apostles, resulting in numerous leaders leaving and taking factions of the church with them.

One of the most notable apostles from this era was Otto Fetting, who joined around 1927 and claimed to receive a series of revelations from John the Baptist. Fetting instructed the church to build a temple and provided blueprints for a massive 180-by-90-foot structure that Malone describes as looking like a Masonic lodge. This directly contradicted Joseph Smith’s earlier instructions to build the Independence temple to match the dimensions of the Kirtland temple, which was much smaller.

Fetting’s revelations eventually commanded that members be rebaptized, which was a bridge too far for the church. The Church of Christ ultimately rejected Fetting, redacted all of his revelations, and considers them non-binding8. Ironically, the 180-by-90-foot dimensions proposed by Fetting are the ones still marked out on the temple lot today.

While excavating the foundation for Fetting’s temple, workers unearthed cornerstones that are currently housed in the church’s visitor center. Malone expressed deep personal suspicion regarding these artifacts. While he acknowledges the possibility that Joseph Smith could have originally placed them there to mark the spot, Malone finds it highly convenient that they were discovered right as Fetting was attempting to legitimize his massive temple project, suggesting they could potentially be forgeries planted by Fetting.

Despite owning the property, the Church of Christ has absolutely no current plans to build a temple. They have money strictly earmarked and set aside for a temple, but they refuse to move forward unless they receive a direct, divine revelation from God commanding them to do so.

We also addressed a rumor regarding a Brazilian restoration group attempting to merge with the Church of Christ to gain voting rights over the temple lot. Malone dismissed the likelihood of this, explaining that the church practices “closed communion” and requires all new members to be rebaptized directly into their organization. In fact, they stopped accepting priesthood and baptismal transfers from the RLDS Church back in the 1920s or 1930s due to stark differences in belief.

Don’t miss our other conversations on the Temple Lot group: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/Hedrickites/

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0:00 Otto Fetting/Temple Cornerstones

I was able to get a rare interview with a member of the Church of Christ (Temple Lot.) Daniel Malone is an adult Sunday school teacher for the church in Independence, Missouri. He provides a candid look into the history and theology of the organization, often historically referred to as the “Hedrickites.”

https://youtu.be/pe4r4P3PkQ0

Don’t miss our other conversations on Hedrickites: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/Hedrickites/

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The Church of Christ grounds its doctrine strictly in the King James Version of the Bible and the Book of Mormon (specifically utilizing their 1990 Independence Edition, which is based on the 1908 RLDS version.) Any theological belief must completely agree with both of these texts.

A major highlight of the interview is Malone’s clarification on the Church of Christ (Temple Lot)’s position regarding the Book of Commandments. While outsiders often mistakenly assume it acts as the church’s canonized version of the Doctrine and Covenants, Malone explains that the church recently voted to officially stop printing it and distance themselves from it. The church has never considered the Book of Commandments to be binding scripture. Historically, it was used primarily as an evidentiary tool to demonstrate how early revelations were manipulated and changed when the Doctrine and Covenants was published. The Church of Christ completely rejects the Doctrine and Covenants, making this historical comparison crucial during late 19th-century ideological splits with the RLDS Church/Community of Christ.

Malone outlines the church’s desire to strip away what they view as “inventions” that crept into the early Mormon movement between 1830 and 1844. They believe Joseph Smith took on too much authority and that the church should be led collectively by a quorum of twelve apostles, rather than a single prophet, closely mirroring the New Testament church found in Acts.

Following the scattering of church members after Joseph Smith’s death, a small, isolated group of believers in Illinois and Indiana maintained these original foundational beliefs. Under the leadership of Granville Hedrick, they received a revelation to return to Independence, Missouri. In 1867, they became the very first restoration group to bravely resettle in Missouri, doing so while the Mormon Extermination Order was still active.

Malone also takes time to correct a misconception regarding the role of women in the Church of Christ. While they do not hold ministerial priesthood offices, women are considered essential spiritual pillars of the church. They take active roles in worship services, where they pray, testify, prophesy, teach Sunday school, and lead music. Malone also shares his own relaxed, autonomous approach to teaching his adult Sunday school class, noting that they do not follow a set correlation schedule, but rather study whatever topics excite him or inspire the class.

The episode wraps up by teasing the next part of the conversation, which promises to dive into the controversies surrounding the 1930s apostle Otto Fetting, his massive blueprints for a temple, and the mysterious cornerstones unearthed on the temple lot.

Don’t miss our other conversations on Hedrickites: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/Hedrickites/

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What are the questions you should ask your polygamy theories, both traditional and skeptic/revisionist? Dr Jesse James is a research psychologist and you’ll want to take notes! Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/3b_VXU-hyZY

Don’t miss our other conversations with Dr Jesse James: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jesse-james/

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0:00 Questions to Ask: Counter-evidence

There is a seismic shift on the priesthood ban in Mormon fundamentalism. It’s happening within independent Mormon group. Justin Francom shares the inside story of how the independent fundamentalist group in Missouri recently made a historic decision to officially abandon the racial priesthood ban and open their temple to people of all racial backgrounds.

https://youtu.be/oEltSUrBCQA

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

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Award-winning authors

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

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Ben Schilaty, a former BYU Honor Code administrator, is a social work professor and author who discusses his life as a gay Latter-day Saint. He details his professional background, and his current work with the Gather Conference. Schilaty shares his personal faith journey, explaining how he reconciles his sexual orientation with his commitment to the Church through prayer and personal revelation. He advocates for radical empathy and honoring the individual agency of LGBTQ members, whether they choose to stay in or leave the faith. Throughout the conversation, he emphasizes the importance of sincere listening and building supportive communities where diverse experiences are validated.

https://youtu.be/EzjYxEAfsYs

Don’t miss our other LDS Faith Journeys: https://gospeltangents.com/tag/lds-faith-journeys/

Ben Schilaty is a professor of social work at Utah Valley University and author of A Walk in My Shoes. He shared a deeply personal look at his life as a gay Latter-day Saint. Schilaty, who humorously describes himself as “fame-ish” due to the parasocial relationships readers and listeners have formed with him, offers a unique perspective on the intersection of faith, identity, and belonging.

Ben describes his internal journey in three distinct phases. In his 20s, he felt “broken” and believed he needed to be “fixed” to fit the mold of a traditional Latter-day Saint marriage. In his early 30s, the pendulum swung, and he felt that if he couldn’t change, perhaps the Church had to change. Today, he focuses on “living in what is,” a practice of accepting reality as it is to find health and happiness.

A pivotal moment in this journey occurred when Ben nearly left the Church after a painful heartbreak. Despite his parents’ full support and their promise to honor his agency regardless of his choice, a prayerful encounter with Matthew 26 changed his path. Reflecting on Christ’s prayer in Gethsemane, Ben felt a “clear and very annoying prompting” that his “cup” was to live his life within the teachings of the Church—a choice that transformed his religious practice from a burden into something life-giving.

Providing a rare look into his four years as an Honor Code administrator at BYU, Ben dispels common myths about the office. While many assume the office is preoccupied with “morality” or LGBTQ+ issues, Ben notes that same-sex romantic behavior reports were uncommon, occurring only about ten times a year. Instead, the vast majority of his work involved academic dishonesty, plagiarism, and timecard theft.

Ben is a co-founder of the Gather conference, a Christ-centered support system for LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints and their allies. He describes it as a “middle space” compared to other organizations like Affirmation or Northstar. Gather serves a diverse group—about 80-90% of whom are active in the Church—including those in same-sex marriages, those choosing celibacy, and parents or leaders seeking to understand their loved ones better.

A major theme of the discussion was radical acceptance and honoring the agency of others. Ben emphasizes that:

Ben’s final invitation to the audience is simple: instead of just reading his book or listening to his podcast, invite the LGBTQ+ people in your own life to tell you their stories.

What do you think of Ben’s experience as an active, gay Latter-day Saint?

0:00 Introduction/Background
1:58 Faith and Identity
3:11 Turning Point and Parental Support
6:36 Supporting LGBTQ Members Who Leave
14:01 BYU Honor Code Office
16:11 Religious Policy and Universal Standards
20:00 Celestial Kingdom Questions and Future Doctrine
34:28 Elder Clark Gilbert’s Call
39:10 Radical Acceptance and Social Work Philosophy
41:07 Gather Conference and Support Organizations
46:36 Accusations of Complicity
49:48 Social Work Training and Church History
54:22 Listening to Individual Stories

Check out LDS Faith Journeys website.

Justin Francom thinks every Mormon Church is the true church. He shares a vision of surprisingly inclusive Mormonism, challenging the rigid boundaries and schisms that usually divide the various Latter-day Saint factions.

https://youtu.be/Px-PJVAdOHs

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

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Francom holds a radically universalist view of the priesthood, believing that the mainstream LDS Church, the AUB, the FLDS, Centennial Park, and the Peterson Group all possess valid priesthood authority. When asked if these groups are apostate, he frankly notes that “we’re all apostate to a certain degree.” He asserts that no single church is perfectly true or completely false; rather, God respects human agency and expects mortals to make mistakes as they figure things out.

Drawing on his deep love for both American and South Korean cultures, Francom argues that God loves diversity and that heaven itself will feature a rich diversity of cultures. Therefore, different worship styles and branches of Mormonism should be able to coexist as long as they are coming unto Christ.

Francom also elaborates on the independent fundamentalist community out in Missouri. They hold regular Sunday meetings, separating for Priesthood instruction and coming together for a unified Sacrament meeting. In a beautiful display of peace, they even hold shared meetings on fifth Sundays with the local mainstream LDS congregation and other fundamentalist factions. To avoid theological conflict, they simply omit the physical sacrament ordinance during these shared gatherings.

The community operates strictly on a voluntary basis, with no mandated tithing, even when it comes to funding and maintaining their newly built temple. To prevent the rise of authoritarian “kings” or a “one man” leader, the temple council is a rotating body where members serve two-year terms before being replaced by a priesthood vote. Remarkably, the temple is open to individuals from other Mormon branches—including mainstream LDS members—who wish to experience the original 1840s endowment, provided they are there for sincere religious reasons rather than just “temple tourism.”

Recognizing that many Latter-day Saints are losing their faith over modern policy issues and discarding their testimonies entirely, Francom helped launch a brand-new initiative: Mormon Legacy Ministries (MLM).

Francom observed that the mainstream LDS Church excels at missionary work and discipling members, while fundamentalists have successfully preserved early doctrines like plural marriage and the Adam-God theory. MLM seeks to bring the best of both worlds together. Described as an “ecumenical Mormon church,” MLM serves as a floating organization or waypoint for independent Mormons.

Currently operating primarily over Zoom with Joshua Erickson serving as bishop, MLM is designed as a safe haven where individuals don’t have to swear loyalty to “one man” or strict dogmas. It bridges the gap for those who feel the mainstream LDS Church is no longer working for them, but who still want to hold onto core restoration truths without the intense leap of joining an insular fundamentalist compound.

Francom’s vision is a refreshing departure from the fighting that usually defines Mormon history. And the paradigm shifts don’t stop there. In the next episode, Francom plans to discuss overturning the fundamentalist priesthood ban on Black members, boldly stating that Brigham Young simply made a mistake.

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

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I sat down with Justin Francom for a deep dive into his “not group,” a unique, largely misunderstood faction of Mormon fundamentalism. Francom sheds light on a fiercely independent community of believers who have built their own temple and completely rejected traditional authoritarian hierarchies.

https://youtu.be/1B0qjVPxlcM

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

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At the heart of this Missouri movement is a complete rejection of the “One Man” doctrine—the belief that a single leader holds all the keys and dictates the faith. Most fundamentalist groups trace their priesthood to an 1886 meeting with John Taylor, but Francom notes that true authority actually stems from the ordinance of the Second Anointing. Joseph Musser, a prominent early fundamentalist, realized that this specific ordinance—not a formal church structure—was the key to preserving the priesthood.

The Second Anointing confers the “fullness of the priesthood,” allowing individuals to perform sealings. According to Francom’s reading of Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants, this power is conferred strictly “one at a time.” Historically, early temple presidents even coordinated between the St. George and Logan temples to ensure these ordinances were performed sequentially, never simultaneously, to maintain this sacred symbolism.

How did this specific priesthood authority reach the independent believers in Missouri? The lineage traces back to Joe Thompson, a former council member of the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB.) Thompson strongly believed in perpetuating the fullness of the priesthood and building temples, which clashed with the leadership style of Owen Allred, who wanted to consolidate power and close temples.

After being excommunicated from the AUB under allegedly spurious charges, Thompson relocated to Arizona, continuing to administer these ordinances to aligned families. Decades later, a man named Robert LeFever brought this “Thompsonite” priesthood authority from Arizona to a group of independent families gathering in Missouri.

The community in Missouri playfully refers to itself as a “not-group” made up of “spiritually libertarians.” They are a hodgepodge of fundamentalist refugees—exiles from the AUB, Centennial Park, and even former mainstream LDS converts. Having witnessed the rampant abuse of centralized power in other sects, they prefer to operate as independent families working together without a singular boss.

Driven by a 40-year-old prophetic vision, these independent families successfully built and dedicated a beautiful temple in Missouri, complete with a stunning echoing star dome in the Celestial room. Their temple work truly flourished once LeFever arrived to administer the fullness of the priesthood.

As a computer scientist, Francom beautifully summarizes this decentralized theology by comparing church organization to software. He views worship culture as the “application layer” of faith. Just as the various branches of the Eastern Orthodox Church operate independently with different styles but maintain the same core authority, Mormon factions can worship differently too.

Whether a congregation allows spontaneous scripture commentary, uses a tea kettle for the sacrament, or practices loud Pentecostal-style worship, Francom believes it is all perfectly valid—as long as the core priesthood ordinances remain pure and intact. Ultimately, this community proves that for some, faith isn’t about swearing allegiance to one man, but rather preserving sacred ordinances and working together as equals.

What are your thoughts about this “not group?” Have you been to the Missouri Temple?

Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/

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I sat down with Justin Francom, an independent Mormon fundamentalist living in Missouri, to discuss his journey from a traditional LDS background to an Independent Mormon fundamentalist. Francom’s story is a compelling look at how his search for deeper doctrine can lead a “Jack Mormon” turned missionary into the world of independent fundamentalist.

https://youtu.be/6oY7DnOq2Ec