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S03E30 - Matt Huber & Kohei Saito on Growth, Progress and Left Imaginaries
Kohei Saito and Matt Huber discuss degrowth communism, socialist ecomodernism and their respective views on growth, natural limits, technology and progress.
---
If you are interested in democratic economic planning, these resources might be of help:
Democratic planning – an information website
https://www.democratic-planning.com/
Sorg, C. & Groos, J. (eds.)(2025). Rethinking Economic Planning. Competition & Change Special Issue Volume 29 Issue 1.
https://journals.sagepub.com/toc/ccha/29/1
Groos, J. & Sorg, C. (2025). Creative Construction - Democratic Planning in the 21st Century and Beyond. Bristol University Press. [for a review copy, please contact: amber.lanfranchi[at]bristol.ac.uk]
https://bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/creative-construction
International Network for Democratic Economic Planning
https://www.indep.network/
Democratic Planning Research Platform:
https://www.planningresearch.net/
---
Shownotes
Kohei Saito at University of Tokyo:
https://www.u-tokyo.ac.jp/focus/en/people/k0001_04217.html
Saito is chair of the “Beyond Capitalism: War Economy and Democratic Planning” Program at The New Institute:
https://thenew.institute/en/programs/beyond-capitalism-war-economy-and-democratic-planning
Matt Huber at Syracuse University:
https://www.maxwell.syr.edu/directory/matthew-t-huber
Saito, K. (2024). Slow Down: How Degrowth Communism can save the Earth. W&N.
https://www.weidenfeldandnicolson.co.uk/titles/kohei-saito/slow-down/9781399612999/
Saito, K. (2023). Marx in the Anthropocene: Towards the Idea of Degrowth Communism. Cambridge University Press.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/marx-in-the-anthropocene/D58765916F0CB624FCCBB61F50879376
Saito, K. (2017). Karl Marx’s Ecosocialism: Capital, Nature, and the Unfinished Critique of Political Economy. Monthly Review Press.
https://monthlyreview.org/product/karl_marxs_ecosocialism/
Huber, M. T. (2022). Climate Change as Class War: Building Socialism on a Warming Planet. Verso Books.
https://www.versobooks.com/products/775-climate-change-as-class-war?srsltid=AfmBOop0wE8Ljdd-lZjDF-9-RZ_QvjRz2f3EobOv3AYEVpcqMDssRUd9
Huber, M. T. (2013). Lifeblood: Oil, Freedom, and the Forces of Capital. University of Minnesota Press.
https://www.upress.umn.edu/9780816677856/lifeblood/
Matt Huber’s and Leigh Philipps’s review of Saito’s recent work:
https://jacobin.com/2024/03/kohei-saito-degrowth-communism-environment-marxism
on Huber’s critique of degrowth:
https://jacobin.com/2023/07/degrowth-climate-change-economic-planning-production-austerity
more articles on Jacobin by Huber:
https://jacobin.com/author/matt-huber
Matt Huber’s medium blog:
https://medium.com/@Matthuber78
On Ecomodernism:
https://thebreakthrough.org/ecomodernism
Matt Huber’s stance on the term “Ecomodernism”:
https://medium.com/@Matthuber78/clarifications-on-ecomodernism-3b159cafb836
on Vaclav Smil:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaclav_Smil
chapter on machinery and modern industry in Marx’s Capital Vol.1:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch15.htm
on Eco-Marxism/Ecosocialism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-socialism
Reading guide on Ecology & Marxism by Andreas Malm:
https://www.historicalmaterialism.org/ecology-marxism-andreas-malm/
on GDP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product
Schmelzer, M. (2016). The Hegemony of Growth: The OECD and the Making of the Economic Growth Paradigm. Cambridge University Press.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/hegemony-of-growth/A80C4DF19D804C723D55A5EFE7A447FD
on the „Green New Deal”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal
Pollin, R. (2018) De-Growth vs. a Green New Deal. New Left Review Issue 112.
https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii112/articles/robert-pollin-de-growth-vs-a-green-new-deal
Hickel, J. (2020). What does degrowth mean? A few points of clarification. Globalizations, 18(7), 1105–1111.
https://blogs.law.columbia.edu/utopia1313/files/2022/11/What-does-degrowth-mean-A-few-points-of-clarification.pdf
on Malthusianism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusianism
Harvey, D. (1974). Population, Resources, and the Ideology of Science. Economic Geography, 50(3), 256–277.
https://www.uky.edu/~tmute2/GEI-Web/password-protect/GEI-readings/harvey%20population.pdf
the „Limits to Growth” report from 1972:
https://www.clubofrome.org/publication/the-limits-to-growth/
Hickel, J. (2019) Degrowth: A Theory of Radical Abundance. Real-World Economics Review Issue 87.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/59bc0e610abd04bd1e067ccc/t/5cb6db356e9a7f14e5322a62/1555487546989/Hickel+-+Degrowth%2C+A+Theory+of+Radical+Abundance.pdf
on Planetary Boundaries:
https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/planetary-boundaries.html
Earl C. Ellies:
https://ges.umbc.edu/ellis/
on “Decoupling”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-economic_decoupling
Christophers, B. (2024). The Price is Wrong: Why Capitalism Won’t Save the Planet. Verso Books.
https://www.versobooks.com/products/3069-the-price-is-wrong?srsltid=AfmBOorFVDdqKegvmh1GA8ku3xla4rBjygkm0iwPL5VXF-BH-O1WOkMo
on the Haber-Bosch Process:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process
Smil, V. (2004). Enriching the Earth: Fritz Haber, Carl Bosch, and the Transformation of World Food Production. MIT Press.
https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262693134/enriching-the-earth/
Smil, V. (2016). Power Density: A Key to Understanding Energy Sources and Uses. MIT Press.
https://direct.mit.edu/books/monograph/4023/Power-DensityA-Key-to-Understanding-Energy-Sources
on Mining and the Green Energy Transition:
https://soundcloud.com/novaramedia/novara-fm-clean-energy-is-already-terraforming-the-earth-w-thea-riofrancos
Marx’s letter to Vera Zasulich:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/zasulich/index.htm
Marx’s “Preface” to “A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy”:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/preface.htm
Future Histories Episodes on Related Topics
S03E23 | Andreas Malm on Overshooting into Climate Breakdown
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s03/e23-andreas-malm-on-overshooting-into-climate-breakdown/
S03E03 | Planning for Entropy on Sociometabolic Planning
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s03/e03-planning-for-entropy-on-sociometabolic-planning/
S03E02 | George Monbiot on Public Luxury
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s03/e02-george-monbiot-on-public-luxury/
S02E55 | Kohei Saito on Degrowth Communism
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s02/e55-kohei-saito-on-degrowth-communism/
S02E47 | Matt Huber on Building Socialism, Climate Change & Class War
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s02/e47-matt-huber-on-building-socialism-climate-change-class-war/
S02E18 | Drew Pendergrass and Troy Vettese on Half Earth Socialism
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s02/e18-drew-pendergrass-and-troy-vettese-on-half-earth-socialism/
Future Histories Contact & Support
If you like Future Histories, please consider supporting us on Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/join/FutureHistories
Contact: [email protected]
Twitter: https://twitter.com/FutureHpodcast
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurehpodcast/
Mastodon: https://mstdn.social/@FutureHistories
English webpage:
https://futurehistories-international.com
Episode Keywords
#MattHuber, #KoheiSaito, #Podcast, #JanGroos, #Interview, #FutureHistories, #futurehistoriesinternational, #FutureHistoriesInternational, #Degrowth, #Socialism, #Capitalism, #GreenNewDeal, #ClimateJustice, #WorkingClass, #PoliticalEconomy, #ClimateCrisis, #FossilCapitalism, #EcoSocialism, #Marx, #DemocraticEconomicPlanning, #Class, #ClassStruggle, #DemocraticPlanning, #DegrowthCommunism, #PostCapitalism, #ClimatePolitics, #RadicalEcology, #JustTransition, #Prometheanism, #Communism, #Progress
View all episodes
By Jan Groos
5
88 ratings
Kohei Saito and Matt Huber discuss degrowth communism, socialist ecomodernism and their respective views on growth, natural limits, technology and progress.
---
If you are interested in democratic economic planning, these resources might be of help:
Democratic planning – an information website
https://www.democratic-planning.com/
Sorg, C. & Groos, J. (eds.)(2025). Rethinking Economic Planning. Competition & Change Special Issue Volume 29 Issue 1.
https://journals.sagepub.com/toc/ccha/29/1
Groos, J. & Sorg, C. (2025). Creative Construction - Democratic Planning in the 21st Century and Beyond. Bristol University Press. [for a review copy, please contact: amber.lanfranchi[at]bristol.ac.uk]
https://bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/creative-construction
International Network for Democratic Economic Planning
https://www.indep.network/
Democratic Planning Research Platform:
https://www.planningresearch.net/
---
Shownotes
Kohei Saito at University of Tokyo:
https://www.u-tokyo.ac.jp/focus/en/people/k0001_04217.html
Saito is chair of the “Beyond Capitalism: War Economy and Democratic Planning” Program at The New Institute:
https://thenew.institute/en/programs/beyond-capitalism-war-economy-and-democratic-planning
Matt Huber at Syracuse University:
https://www.maxwell.syr.edu/directory/matthew-t-huber
Saito, K. (2024). Slow Down: How Degrowth Communism can save the Earth. W&N.
https://www.weidenfeldandnicolson.co.uk/titles/kohei-saito/slow-down/9781399612999/
Saito, K. (2023). Marx in the Anthropocene: Towards the Idea of Degrowth Communism. Cambridge University Press.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/marx-in-the-anthropocene/D58765916F0CB624FCCBB61F50879376
Saito, K. (2017). Karl Marx’s Ecosocialism: Capital, Nature, and the Unfinished Critique of Political Economy. Monthly Review Press.
https://monthlyreview.org/product/karl_marxs_ecosocialism/
Huber, M. T. (2022). Climate Change as Class War: Building Socialism on a Warming Planet. Verso Books.
https://www.versobooks.com/products/775-climate-change-as-class-war?srsltid=AfmBOop0wE8Ljdd-lZjDF-9-RZ_QvjRz2f3EobOv3AYEVpcqMDssRUd9
Huber, M. T. (2013). Lifeblood: Oil, Freedom, and the Forces of Capital. University of Minnesota Press.
https://www.upress.umn.edu/9780816677856/lifeblood/
Matt Huber’s and Leigh Philipps’s review of Saito’s recent work:
https://jacobin.com/2024/03/kohei-saito-degrowth-communism-environment-marxism
on Huber’s critique of degrowth:
https://jacobin.com/2023/07/degrowth-climate-change-economic-planning-production-austerity
more articles on Jacobin by Huber:
https://jacobin.com/author/matt-huber
Matt Huber’s medium blog:
https://medium.com/@Matthuber78
On Ecomodernism:
https://thebreakthrough.org/ecomodernism
Matt Huber’s stance on the term “Ecomodernism”:
https://medium.com/@Matthuber78/clarifications-on-ecomodernism-3b159cafb836
on Vaclav Smil:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaclav_Smil
chapter on machinery and modern industry in Marx’s Capital Vol.1:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch15.htm
on Eco-Marxism/Ecosocialism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-socialism
Reading guide on Ecology & Marxism by Andreas Malm:
https://www.historicalmaterialism.org/ecology-marxism-andreas-malm/
on GDP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product
Schmelzer, M. (2016). The Hegemony of Growth: The OECD and the Making of the Economic Growth Paradigm. Cambridge University Press.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/hegemony-of-growth/A80C4DF19D804C723D55A5EFE7A447FD
on the „Green New Deal”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal
Pollin, R. (2018) De-Growth vs. a Green New Deal. New Left Review Issue 112.
https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii112/articles/robert-pollin-de-growth-vs-a-green-new-deal
Hickel, J. (2020). What does degrowth mean? A few points of clarification. Globalizations, 18(7), 1105–1111.
https://blogs.law.columbia.edu/utopia1313/files/2022/11/What-does-degrowth-mean-A-few-points-of-clarification.pdf
on Malthusianism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusianism
Harvey, D. (1974). Population, Resources, and the Ideology of Science. Economic Geography, 50(3), 256–277.
https://www.uky.edu/~tmute2/GEI-Web/password-protect/GEI-readings/harvey%20population.pdf
the „Limits to Growth” report from 1972:
https://www.clubofrome.org/publication/the-limits-to-growth/
Hickel, J. (2019) Degrowth: A Theory of Radical Abundance. Real-World Economics Review Issue 87.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/59bc0e610abd04bd1e067ccc/t/5cb6db356e9a7f14e5322a62/1555487546989/Hickel+-+Degrowth%2C+A+Theory+of+Radical+Abundance.pdf
on Planetary Boundaries:
https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/planetary-boundaries.html
Earl C. Ellies:
https://ges.umbc.edu/ellis/
on “Decoupling”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-economic_decoupling
Christophers, B. (2024). The Price is Wrong: Why Capitalism Won’t Save the Planet. Verso Books.
https://www.versobooks.com/products/3069-the-price-is-wrong?srsltid=AfmBOorFVDdqKegvmh1GA8ku3xla4rBjygkm0iwPL5VXF-BH-O1WOkMo
on the Haber-Bosch Process:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process
Smil, V. (2004). Enriching the Earth: Fritz Haber, Carl Bosch, and the Transformation of World Food Production. MIT Press.
https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262693134/enriching-the-earth/
Smil, V. (2016). Power Density: A Key to Understanding Energy Sources and Uses. MIT Press.
https://direct.mit.edu/books/monograph/4023/Power-DensityA-Key-to-Understanding-Energy-Sources
on Mining and the Green Energy Transition:
https://soundcloud.com/novaramedia/novara-fm-clean-energy-is-already-terraforming-the-earth-w-thea-riofrancos
Marx’s letter to Vera Zasulich:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/zasulich/index.htm
Marx’s “Preface” to “A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy”:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/preface.htm
Future Histories Episodes on Related Topics
S03E23 | Andreas Malm on Overshooting into Climate Breakdown
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s03/e23-andreas-malm-on-overshooting-into-climate-breakdown/
S03E03 | Planning for Entropy on Sociometabolic Planning
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s03/e03-planning-for-entropy-on-sociometabolic-planning/
S03E02 | George Monbiot on Public Luxury
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s03/e02-george-monbiot-on-public-luxury/
S02E55 | Kohei Saito on Degrowth Communism
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s02/e55-kohei-saito-on-degrowth-communism/
S02E47 | Matt Huber on Building Socialism, Climate Change & Class War
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s02/e47-matt-huber-on-building-socialism-climate-change-class-war/
S02E18 | Drew Pendergrass and Troy Vettese on Half Earth Socialism
https://www.futurehistories-international.com/episodes/s02/e18-drew-pendergrass-and-troy-vettese-on-half-earth-socialism/
Future Histories Contact & Support
If you like Future Histories, please consider supporting us on Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/join/FutureHistories
Contact: [email protected]
Twitter: https://twitter.com/FutureHpodcast
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurehpodcast/
Mastodon: https://mstdn.social/@FutureHistories
English webpage:
https://futurehistories-international.com
Episode Keywords
#MattHuber, #KoheiSaito, #Podcast, #JanGroos, #Interview, #FutureHistories, #futurehistoriesinternational, #FutureHistoriesInternational, #Degrowth, #Socialism, #Capitalism, #GreenNewDeal, #ClimateJustice, #WorkingClass, #PoliticalEconomy, #ClimateCrisis, #FossilCapitalism, #EcoSocialism, #Marx, #DemocraticEconomicPlanning, #Class, #ClassStruggle, #DemocraticPlanning, #DegrowthCommunism, #PostCapitalism, #ClimatePolitics, #RadicalEcology, #JustTransition, #Prometheanism, #Communism, #Progress
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