Former FBI Special Agent Jim Gaylord joins Matt to discuss Chasing Chi, his inside account of the multi-year hunt for Chi Mak, the low-key Southern California engineer at the center of a major Chinese spy ring inside America’s Navy industrial base. They walk through how a vague tip evolved into a full counterintelligence operation—trash pulls, covert entries, FISA surveillance, and a race to grab the Chi’s conspirators at LAX before stolen submarine and radar secrets left the country—and what the case reveals about China’s modern espionage threat.

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Learn more about Jim and the Chi Mak case: chasingchibook.com

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Secrets and Spies is produced by F & P LTD.

Music by Andrew R. Bird

Photos by Prometheus Books

Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.