As political and economic turmoil continues in France, we speak to the influential former EU Commissioner for the Internal Market, Thierry Breton. A former minister of economy and finance in the French government, Breton gives us his reading of the debt situation in France, as well as of France’s current standing in the European Union. We also talk about the obstacles to a more integrated EU defence industry – something that Breton was closely involved with in the European Commission during his tenure in 2019-2024.

Breton points out that France is in worse shape than Germany, despite experiencing the same problems. "We had the same subprime issues, the same debt problems, the same Covid impact," he says. "And now we are at 116 percent debt versus GDP. Germany is at 62 percent. So it means that probably something is wrong with us. And we need to be very candid and to say to our public opinion that we cannot afford to pay our social benefits [the way we used to]. And we need to discuss together how to reduce our spending."

So has the political deadlock and the mounting debt hurt France's standing in the EU?

"When you are a founding member of the Union like France, you need to behave by example," Breton replies. "And it's true that, since 20 years, we have not kept our commitments. In the Eurogroup, at the Ecofin, when you don't stick to your commitment, it makes you a little bit more weak when you speak to others. That's the reality. Of course it's painful, but I think it's possible to demonstrate to the rest of our partners that we will get back on track."

Breton adds: "France is still a big country. Remember that we have nuclear submarines. We have nuclear aircraft carriers. We are the only ones able to carry deterrence with our nuclear weapons, which is extremely important these days."

Speaking of defence, we discuss the problems facing the EU's European Defence Industry Programme (EDIP). Breton was intimately involved with EDIP's launch as EU Commissioner.

"What is extremely important is that defence stays at the level of member states. This is their sovereignty and it will stay this way. And the European Commission needs to understand that," Breton states. "On the other hand, the Commission has a very important power in industry. You remember we had a big discussion about shells and calibre 155 ammunition that we wanted to deliver to Ukraine. We were manufacturing 500,000 per year, but today, because we put a programme in place, we are producing more than 2 million per year. So are on our way to achieving what Russia is doing. This demonstrates that it's possible to work together to drastically enhance our defence industry."

We ask Breton if it was a good idea for the Commission to talk about creating a "drone wall", in response to the recent presumed Russian drone incursions into European airspace.

"Well, you know, in France this term reminds us of the Maginot Line (a French fortification that the German army bypassed in 1940). You can go around [a drone wall] in a car, or as an individual. So, I mean, it doesn't work this way," Breton says. "But, of course, we need to defend our airspace together. And this was already put into the EU's Strategic Compass in 2023. So we don't need to reinvent the wheel. It's already extremely clear that there are four contested spaces – airspace, space itself, cyberspace and maritime space – where we need to work together."

Programme prepared by Isabelle Romero, Perrine Desplats and Oihana Almandoz