Isabelle and David continue to talk with David’s brother’s friend, Aaron, and contemplate why folks with ADHD can be so enthusiastic and excited about interests, people, etc. Is it because we are like puppies who are starved for reinforcement (dopamine)? Or does it come from living a life on the outside and the joy of connection when it has been missed for so long. With callbacks to Greatest American Hero (See Ep095) as well as the real story behind the theme song to St. Elmo's Fire.

—-

David describes how borrowing from LeDerick Horne and his brilliant theory around leadership, that folks in leadership can have a number of qualities, including being promoters. Folks with ADHD can be natural promoters, and being a promoter is actually a form of leading others. With the caveat that we must be into what we promote. And how excited we are about people and how we talk people up. David names that perhaps this has something to do with how we are starving (for dopamine) and intimacy and connection and relatedness can help us fill that void, we reach for the connection and get excited. Isabelle wonders if this relates to an autism(ASD)-style special interest, how she perpetually is excited and has a working principle that everyone could find common ground if we just found a shared hobby or special interest. David likes to tell people on airplanes that he's a car salesman so he can talk and listen to his heart’s content but he doesn’t have to focus on what he does. Isabelle names that even though David is not very savvy about cars, he could sell a car because he's such a natural salesperson. Isabelle names that anxiety around overselling things, she might encourage people to try new things, take new risks, explore and play—but her working memory is so poor that she doesn't know if she oversold, she has to refer to notes or something as reference. David loved serving as fun because there was a high degree of risk and failing so it helped me remember things. David names that we are not starving puppies with watery eyes, but we are highly susceptible to be reinforced, so when we see someone else’s tail wagging, it shoots up our levels of dopamine, we are highly reinforced. The establishing operation—social connection and social mastery is water for us, like the water-deprived rats being reinforced in Skinner boxes. The environment makes Isabelle’s puppy quality feel safe or good or not; and can lead to her feeling starved of that connection and reinforcement. The feeling when you have no one wagging their tail back at you—how many mistakes we do make, how many social gaffs and miscues, and big ones. It's almost like we find ourselves so marginalized, its like finding a prison gang when we find people who get us. What does it do to your sense of self when you can't do what you want with your morning—how that deflates your sense of self. Isabelle feels like she shares a bond with the other parents and caregivers that are always running late—it flares up imposter syndrome and “if you only saw me five minutes ago." David reframes this as "if only you saw what it took me to get here and I made it!" Aaron is a master of social engineering, even though he's almost always good at it and social interaction, he remains scared the whole time. The anxiety hits because if it doesn't work out, he takes the hits hard: he can take a lot of them, but they hit hard. David shares one of his hits—he was spending a lot of money for grad school, wanting to read all the books for all his classes, he was going to learn it all...but he didn't do any of the readings for one of his classes. The class was talking about this person out loud, “Ed Nafoah” — he was like "what is this Nafoah guy talking about ?” and everyone in class is like “Edna? Her name is Edna Foa.” It took five to ten minutes for David to feel the cabin pressure returning and the lights to come up and to return to his body. Aaron points out that his impulsivity could carry him through it—David had a ballast and in grad school and they were talking about different psychosocial backgrounds, step or two based on privilege. The professor holds up a dollar and says "the first person to…can have this dollar?” He’s never seen someone authorized like that. Aaron sings the theme song from “The Greatest American Hero” which we all know, and the superhero suit is David’s impulsivity. 

Who is Edna Foa?

Greatest American Hero trailer (he is LITERALLY "walking on air")

Story behind St. Elmo’s Fire theme song, "Man in Motion" 

• here's the music video and the song 
• A quick synopsis of the backstory behind the song (Source: Wikipedia)
• And an interview with the songwriter/singer, John Parr, discussing how he came up with the idea and how he snuck it in to be the theme song for this 1980’s Brat Pack Extravaganza. 

For more about our guest:
Aaron Michael Ullrey (he/him)
Writing and Editing Specialist, Editor in Chief
Research Associate, Transcendence and Transformation
Center for the Study of World Religion (CSWR) at Harvard Divinity School

Instructor of Religious Studies

The University of Houston

Instructor of Sanskrit Language

University of Naropa 

-----

Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Isabelle and David welcome David’s brother’s friend, Aaron, who, as a recently diagnosed ADHDer, brings up the idea of if ADHD is a superpower, it's like the super suit in “Greatest American Hero:” a suit given with a manual that got lost on the first day of use. What happens when you find your ‘ingredient’ for doing the things you previously struggled with and now can do? How does your self esteem and sense of self efficacy impact how you handle days when that ingredient is missing? This plus being puppy dogs together, tackling Mt. Laundry, and why intimacy beats contempt.

----

David and Isabelle welcome Aaron, a longtime friend of David’s brother, who was recently diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. In thinking about ADHD, he thinks about this show from the 1970’s, “Greatest American Hero,” where this teacher is given a superpower suit by some aliens, who also give him a manual for the suit, and he loses it on the first day, so he goes around saving people but also is seeking this manual and he always gives it up to save someone. He resonated with this character so much, and for Aaron, medication made a huge difference—he is able to wake up and do the thing and then he is able to do. He’s been medicated for anxiety and depression his whole life and taking medication for ADHD doesn’t make those go away, but it helps him be the person he always wanted to be. Isabelle so resonates with the suit metaphor and how she and Bobby attempted to make their home more ADHD friendly (see “Keeping House While Drowning” and all the ADHD friendly home tips below!) And she forgot her medication and instead of spiraling into anxiety, when she realized why she stalled out all day, she was able to recognize it was “oh, I was missing my ingredient.”  David points out that it’s not just medication, because medication is not for everyone, it can be so many things, once we find out what the ingredient is—working out in the morning, the coffee routine, whatever it might be--when you all of a sudden miss it, you can pinpoint it and recover. Even more so, Aaron describes how it is a conscious habit, as a child of the 80’s, he is not about the idea of 'working on his self-esteem,’ but realizes through therapy and his conversations with David that it keeps coming up for a reason, there are wounds there that do shift when you are able to do some of the things you previously struggled with. David can recognize those nasty voices in our heads, the angry voice as a teenager to get himself to do things. Based on his arbitrary math, while it takes 6 weeks to build a neurological bridge, it takes 6 years to build a habit. He chose to make excitement that it will be over the habit over the anger over having to do it. Whether it’s medication or nervousness or anxiety, David recognizes that something has to stimulate him so he has to choose his path and practice it. Aaron remembers his psychologist friend Dave 20 years ago sharing the 3 paths to happiness (he was studying at the time)—the first is excitement, the second is contempt (at least temporarily), and the third is intimacy. Aaron is excitable and comes from a contemptuous family and wants to focus on intimacy. This makes Isabelle make awkward spiders with her hands, the idea of gossiping and spreading shame makes you feel reassured and safe but also brings with it a threat and temporary condition; for Isabelle, intimacy means playfulness, curiosity, a willingness to see what happens next, and as David defines it: a shared vulnerability. Aaron ordered up BRAIN STUFF, and sadly David has no links, so Isabelle tries to fill it by talking about studies that connect to how we associate the negative talk about someone with the gossiper, not the subject of the gossip. David names that he does think ADHD is a superpower with a missing manual, and the tricky part is let’s say we’re talking unbridled enthusiasm: it’s a superpower and contagious and also has an effect on the recipient. David names being okay with someone not wanting to be the recipient at this current moment. 

THE THINGS WE MENTIONED:

• Greatest American Hero Opening Credits (Worth it to finally see where this song comes from and for the flying haphazardly imagery)
• How to Keep House While Drowning by KC Davis
• So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed by Jon Ronson
• "Punishing or praising gossipers: How people interpret the motives behind negative gossip shapes its consequences" (source: Social and Personality Psychology Compass)

-----

Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Does ADHD make you an overly optimistic puppy dog? Or the sprinkle of trickster magic in someone else's day? And is there really a "better" way to be, optimistic or pessimistic? From David being a prophetic hot dog vendor at Wrigley Field, to trickster archetypes, to the differences between vulnerable in the process of something or being vulnerable at the end, Isabelle and David dig into a totally unique way to consider optimism and pessimism as adaptive. 

----

Once upon a time, David sold hot dogs at Wrigley Field, yelling out “here’s your hot dogs!” To do that, he talked differently, throwing the accent in so thick. This was during the McGuire/Sosa run streak, and he would say “Sammy’s going to hit a home run to you in the 7th” and he had a 50% chance of being right and he made it a great time for those kids. This makes Isabelle think of Tricia Hersey, the Nap Minister, who has done all this work on systemic racism and the Black American experience, and rest as resistance or a form of activism. She also is talking about lot about trickster energy. Isabelle thinks about this in the form of ableism, how she talks and writes about trickster energy, and making magic in something that feels subversive and is part of the time as well as not a part of the time. Like David is performing the role of the hot dog vendor, but then because he predicts the ‘future’ to the kid, he adds a twist to it and he becomes a full human, like more than a role. Isabelle’s shortcuts often fall around domestic labor. David likes how it elevates the hot dog vendor to more than an NPC—after the game, if he predicted it was right, reclaims that he was actually a main character. But also it was greater than what David was doing. Isabelle notices that this lines up with a neurodivergent strength with ADHD, the going on tangents, the divergent tangents. Isabelle names that recently things have been really tough personally and professionally, and yet she has this relentless optimism; Isabelle can’t help but bring in the playful energy. Is her optimism really about ADHD? David names that optimism is not about accuracy, it has to do with process. Optimism is: ‘it’s not a loss until it is,” and you can be miserable for 3 weeks leading up to something or miserable for the one moment you feel the loss. But also, David warns, optimism can be dangerous when it comes to expectations. If you expect a piece of (astronaut) ice cream when you get home every day, it is a set up when you get upset you didn’t get the astronaut ice cream. Optimism is radically accepting that we haven’t lost until we have. In one hour we can feel sad, but right now, we can still win. For David it’s how he can sit with his nervous system, it’s changing the meaning of “in process.” Isabelle really likes this, as she is relentlessly optimistic. If she is more willing to take risks, if she doesn’t have a big response cost, she doesn’t have a great estimation of how hard or long something is going to be, a poor working memory, and it would track that overall she would get smacked in the face by a 2 x 4 and then wake up the next day and forget it ever happened. She doesn’t remember the fails until she's failing again, and anything is possible until it isn’t, or she remembers the fails but this time, it could be different. And, is part of that really a choice she’s making or is it just a shortcut, a mental shortcut—you could call it optimism that she always leaves the house not accounting for traffic because she believes in parking magic. It would be way harder for her to keep all the possibilities in mind. David asks: are you forgetting to account for traffic? That’s executive functioning stuff. Or are you optimistic about there being no traffic? If you’re leaving late thinking you’re going to get a good parking spot, the memory deficit reinforces this perspective. But isn’t it easier to live with miracles and magic and not borrowing trouble? You’re not ruining your present moment by fretting about something that hasn’t happened yet. But if Isabelle could have accounted for her executive functioning maybe she could’ve avoided some thing. When we are struggling to pull out optimism in an area, we’re looking at areas of self-esteem. It’s really hard to be optimistic if you don’t have a sense of mastery in who you are and what you’re doing. You have to have a sense that you are enough or that you matter, you have to have some power or some say in a world. Survival mode, by necessity removes optimism, makes you pessimistic. When you’ve survived trauma, which is anything that overwhelms your sense of hope, what devalued or dehumanized you or left you feeling out of control, and it was something that Isabelle was internalizing something was the worst. Back in the day, in older versions of the DSM, included in PTSD was the idea of a ‘foreshortened future,” there’s not way she could survive or make it through another developmental state. When you’re in survival mode, you think you’re getting all the important data, black and white, like an old news reel, you think you’re getting all the information, but you’re getting very little data, which can be both helpful and hurtful. Does optimism indicate the opposite of the trauma response? Is it an indicator you're not in the survival mode? But David names: optimism is not a better, pessimism is not a worse—both are accommodations and have their uses. Maybe you’re more vulnerable in process, and less vulnerable at the end, so being optimistic is an adaptation for you. For someone else who is more vulnerable at the end and less vulnerable in process, being pessimistic would be an adaptation. We surrender parts of ourselves when we try to be somebody else, and David is a proponent of humanism, that humans as a whole make sense, and we’re doing our best. He’s not interested in optimism being used to invalidate pessimism or pessimism being used to invalidate optimism. 

NPC - Non-Playable or Non-Player Character: a term from gaming that refers to characters that cannot be played by the person playing the game. (Source: wikipedia).

Nap Minister, Tricia Hersey and her book, Rest is Resistance

Trickster Archetype: (from Wikipedia): "a character in a story who exhibits a great degree of intellect or secret knowledge and uses it to play tricks or otherwise disobey normal rules and defy conventional behavior." Examples Isabelle mentioned include: Loki (norse mythology and the Marvel Universe), Anansi (Ashanti folklore)

ADHD's links to optimism:

• The Positive Aspects of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: A Qualitative Investigation of Successful Adults with ADHD (Source: ADHD Springer Journal)
• Incautiously Optimistic: Positively Valenced Cognitive Avoidance in Adult ADHD (Source: NIH/Cogn. Beh. Pract.)
• Positive Illusory Bias (PIB) related to ADHD in kids and parents (source: University of British Columbia)

How do you make your time off the most efficiently relaxing? Or unlock a peak game night or other family time experience? And why are we so hell bent on intensity of experience, versus frequency? David and Isabelle straddle talk of perfectionism, their own relationships to building time-off experiences, and how frequency is our friend, as well as the idea that perfectionism is not a dirty word, but perhaps relates to masking, needs for structure and predictability in neurodivergence.

----

Isabelle describes how her and Bobby would take time away just the two of them, and realized how time would move so differently, especially if they just let themselves hang out and not put extra pressure on the time off. David names that we focus so much on intensity of experiences (for Isabelle’s family, the most intense all-inclusive Disney trip EVER!) versus frequency, when actually, you need more frequent interactions in order to have a template for how to be with each other. So maybe we do more time off or together time—more often, and lower the bar for what we have to do in that time? Isabelle struggles with this, however, in how she tackles family game nights, as family dinner might be something of a challenge for folks (let’s not assume all families are functional and you want to spend time with each other, either). She goes to great lengths to set it up, get the snacks, the music, the setting…and she always wants to make it 2% better, but it often backfires or doesn’t match up to any expectations. This brings her to her new hyper fixation, on perfectionism (see book she names, below). She describes how there’s a type of perfectionist that seeks to have every part of a process go well, and if one part goes wrong, they throw it all away. This relates for her to being so in the present moment and struggling with what happened just before or just after, so she wants to nail each part of a get together. David does not relate to this, it brings up the fact he knows nothing can be perfect and in fact, he felt so ‘not enough’ for much of his life, that he does not carry this. Isabelle describes how there’s this type of perfectionism where you work really hard but you try to appear effortless (effortlessly styled, cool, fit, etc.) and David names how he wants to unlock peak experiences with minimal effort. Isabelle and David get into a debate about whether or not David might be a type of perfectionist, if you think of perfectionism as ambitions or goals or striving toward and ideal, and Isabelle’s own journey exploring if she has autism, makes her think that maybe this is how she uses scripts in social settings, like she knows what her role is and what is expected of her and she wants to do it well. David names that if he puts great effort into it, then it doesn’t count, except when he’s making “D’s Nuts,” a holiday spiced nut roasted sugared nut blend that blows minds in little mason jars every year. Isabelle finally gets what David means; he’s going for peak efficiency, like he puts in no effort, and it’s a HUGE win for the person. With D’s nuts, it’s extremely labor intensive and he’s proud of it. Isabelle likes to give people shortcuts, like discount codes and bargains and feels so seen when David names he has benefited from her use of this many a time. 

The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control by Katherine Morgan Schafler

Types of perfectionists (per the book above, taken from Medium summary article)

• Classic perfectionist — They attempt to control essentially everything. This is the type we’re all thinking of. They like structure and consistency. They tend to hold themselves to extremely high standards and are overachievers.
• Parisian perfectionist — This type wants to be perfectly liked by everyone in an effortless way. They have a sense of ideal connection and tend to be people pleasing to bridge that gap.
• Procrastinating perfectionist — These folks want the conditions to be ideal before they get started on a project. They have an ideal notion of how something might go, and are afraid of having it ruined with the reality of actually getting started.
• Messy perfectionist — This doesn’t mean physically messy. What it means is that these folks have a hard time following through once a project has gotten underway. They believe that they can focus on multiple things without having to give anything up, but frequently don’t finish what they started and have multiple projects in various states of completion at any given time.
• Intense perfectionist — These people can be extremely demanding of others. Think the boss that is exacting and keeps you at the office late. They have an ideal outcome or vision and are willing to be extremely unlikable in order to bring it to fruition.

David makes “D’s nuts.” For those not familiar with Chicago accents, here’s an old SNL sketch that makes big use of this.

-----

Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Just in time for the mounting stress at the end of the year, here’s an ADHD-friendly gift-giving guide! David and Isabelle have ideas, accommodations, and acceptance around giving and receiving gifts with neurodivergent folx. How hard it is to buy things for folx who impulsively purchase all (cheaper) things for themselves? How to tackle the mystery of huge shopping carts and no good memory if you bought the thing after all, or not? What to get your brilliant neurodivergent child (psss…it’s the experience, not the shiny thing!)? And MORE!
-----
Aside from discussing how Isabelle has a cold and David thinks they could be like Voltron, David describes how he only buys things he can touch or get a use out of: dopamine will make you think something that looks shiny and cool (like a skin in a video game) is the thing to buy, but then the rush fades and your left without something useful. Dopamine releases around the potential of awesomeness, not actually the awesomeness. Think about how quickly something Isabelle gets hooked into having loaded shopping carts at various websites, especially around gift giving—she’ll spend two hours hyper focusing on what to get and getting it, but when it comes time to buying something, she freezes and forgets to buy it and then doesn’t remember if she bought it or not. David points out this is the inattentive part: the difficulty of making the choice. You also then log a memory of the check out screen (but not if you actually bought the thing or not). The shopping cart loading is externalizing your memory, using an accommodation to assist with working memory as you find things that might be potential gifts for people. David makes a point around buying something with a use case, even more so than quality of experience: can you specifically use it for something? Does it do something other than just sit there? Sometimes we don’t want to use something up (like candles) because it feels too precious to use them. David names that he gets overwhelmed with too much stuff: he wants it all, but he doesn’t want it all. For example, at a birthday when he got all five video games he wanted, when we get all that we want, all at once, we don’t actually want it all. Give him five video games, but give him one each throughout several months. What if you could rotate toys (Isabelle calls this toy store with her kids) and wishes she could do this with herself. They hit upon that subscription boxes as a cool solution. David names as that someone who is impulsive, there is nothing he wants under $20 he hasn’t bought for himself. If you’re debating getting the expensive thing but caught with decision paralysis, average out how much the thing costs per use (for example, a coffee machine ends up being $1 per cup of coffee for a whole year) and then decide if it’s worth the 5% boost in your day. David names finding the win for yourself: finding the win/lose condition and setting yourself up for a win. That includes receiving gifts: make it simple for your gift givers! You like bunnies? Get bunnies. Set up your givers for a win. Isabelle describes loving to browse a store, but hating to have to make a buying decision, while David thinks of the gift that someone would be embarrassed to buy for themselves but could not reject (without it being silly, such as a 15 lb. Bag of gummy bears). Both inattentive and impulsive types of ADHD lead to self-doubt, but it’s how many times we touch that doubt: for inattentive type, it’s a lot before buying something. For impulsive type, it’s huge the moment you hand the gift over and wonder if you haven’t made a mistake. Isabelle ponders a giant sized Toblerone, David recalls how disconcerting holding a huge gummy bear actually was. For kids, consider the experience of going to the store and getting to impulsively choose the thing they want for themselves. Preserve the magic of the buy: the parent/guardian/gift giver has zero interest in how great the gift is: if they have buyer’s remorse, that’s learning, it’s important, not a failed gift. 

What is Voltron? I mean, the logo alone… 

Quick visual searches (not endorsing any particular brand, just for reference):
Giant Gummy Bear
Giant Toblerone  

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS 

Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD), where you interpret feedback or questions or redirections as being very harsh and personal, and then really take it to heart—even if that’s not really what is being communicated to you. Can be present a lot with folx with ADHD.

Use case: Does a thing do something other than just sit there? There is a case for how you’d use it.

Thoughts on gift giving

• Dopamine releases around the potential of awesomeness, not the actual awesomeness. 
• Make it a win/lose, and set yourself up for a win, and those giving you gifts for a win: pick something you 
• Harness your impulsivity: follow your first instinct. Be outrageous.
• Don’t expect doubt to go away: there’s a chaotic variable in giving in a gift, a novel way the person could react.
• Think about things that people maybe would never buy for themselves but they would not reject (run the scenario, pretend you’re mad at the gift you just gave)—for example, two 15 lb. Bags of gummy bears. It’d be silly for someone to reject it and it’d make a funny story if they do.
• Advice for kids: create a day to go to the store with the kid so they can pick out what they impulsively want that day. Give them the power to choose. Predetermine budget or safety issues, but otherwise, no micromanaging. Even with buyer’s remorse, there’s a lesson and it’s okay. 

-----

Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

How do you survive holiday travel with ADHD? What about traveling with children, particularly small children? And what happens when you find yourself rushing, leaving things until the last minute, and forgetting your charger once again? David and Isabelle swap stories and share specific tips to traveling and also discuss WHY ARE THERE SOCK NUBBINS AND TAGS. Seriously.
-----
There can be so much pressure to have a Hallmark, picture-postcard perfect holiday and it’s so important to revise those expectations and think about what you actually want to do, for example, maybe it’s “we go to the this house, tolerate everyone for 45 minutes, you grab the turkey, I grab the mashed potatoes, and we leave.” And what about the uncomfortable holiday clothes? Isabelle laughs and mentions a brilliant SNL fake ad for Macy’s that’s all about children’s clothing and how uncomfortable it is. David describes this might be where task meets emotionality (for definition, see below)—is the task of the holidays spending time with family? David remembers the holidays being hard, everyone fighting on the way there and then fine when they got home, and wearing uncomfortable clothes, and just wanting to leave and it being awful. Isabelle remembers coming home so late and it was freezing and trying to sleep in the back seat, freezing. David had the experience going to his partner’s holiday celebrations and—they don’t have ADHD—everyone got along, hung out, sang songs, played piano—and this is real? Friendsgiving is a thing, and you can make choices, what you do for holidays is a choice: like winter is a choice. Anytime you feel trapped or caught in something, changing the language to “I’m choosing to do blank because blank…” with what needs your meeting with it, changes it from you “have to go see Meemaw” You can take the shoulds, musts, and have-to and change it to choices. And maybe Meemaw doesn’t care what you wear, she just wants to see you. WHY ARE THERE TAGS IN CLOTHING? And NUBBINS ON SOCKS? We have evolved so many incredible things, we have AI, we have genome sequencing, and we have sock nubbins, and who invented pantyhose and shapewear. David likes shape wear because the underarmour stuff he wears is nice and tight. Isabelle describes that it’s more designed to smush you in and sometimes it’s great—this is maybe Isabelle’s trauma after being a 6 ft woman at 14 year old, so she was fitting into shape wear and pantyhose as a kid and hated it so much and it was so uncomfortable. David always got all these hand-me-down socks that were in a constant state of yawn—now David gets the really tight socks that stay up all day, “look at you sock, staying up all day!” And transitioning back to travel—and sometimes travel is really hard because we’re pushing ourselves harder than we should. Having the toolbox is just as important on the airplane or airport, or knowing how long you’re waiting with a toolbox. Whoever’s doing the traveling, your self care is the most important: you can’t control your kids being miserable, they will be, you have to put your oxygen mask, go at your pace, go at your tolerance. Kids will fall apart. You need to be there for them when they do. So what do you need to be there for them? Maybe it’s a treat, maybe it’s slowing down—take care of you. Pack the day before. And always include an extra day back at home before transitioning back. You can change the day back—the end is always going to be the end of the vacation, but you being able to have a different re-entry ritual into your day to day can be game changing. Isabelle shares some tips from her own front line experiences, such as when driving from Indianapolis from Nashville as part of moving, when she forgot the iPad…and everything else, and her kid was stuck in the way back for hours bored out of their mind. Needless to say, iPads are last steps, so it’s a plan B, but it forces them to have lots of plan A—and on this trip, she forgot all the plan B’s and A’s. And everyone is going to have a meltdown—Isabelle, as mom, will also have a breakdown. It doesn’t matter how prepared you are, travel will break you at some point. Travel with kids is courting brilliant memories of chaos, so she anticipates and plans on her having a breakdown. So she tells herself that “I’m a good mom who’s reached her limit.” You’re trained from babyhood to meet their needs all the time, but it’s a set up, the game is rigged, and part of the rigging is us thinking we’re never going to lose it ourselves. Maybe it’s the rule, not the exception. What about outsourcing, like checking your bags curbside, strapping your kid into the carseat on the plane (because they’re used to it and airplane seatbelts do nothing). Be kind to yourself. There’s also this idea that a vacation and a trip with kids are two separate things. The labor does not change, but increases, but the expectation for fun and frivolity is also increased, but maybe change the expectations inside. Also okay if it’s extra hard because it actually really is. Take the wins. David names that it’s very hard to hold dialectics, to opposing truths: you can love your kids and they can be too much, really hard, really frustrating. You need to find yourself a support group that can validate all the truths. For David, being a child who had ADHD, and seeing people with kids travel, and typically things feel better when there isn’t as much pressure, when you’re not rushing at the last minute, and have everything you need. Accepting that all of those things are going to be harder with ADHD and smiling when those things don't happen is the key. Accept that win, when you actually remember the charger. We can also flip the shame spiral into gratitude because you can maybe get the thing when you arrive, and David has needed to buy pretty much everything on arrival. Anything important, the things you can’t live without, phone stuff, medication, certain items, should be carry-ons. If ever possible, don’t check a bag, have a very compacted carry on. 

SNL Fake Macy’s commercial for children’s uncomfortable clothing

DAVID'S DEFINITIONS

TASK V. EMOTIONALITY

• Task: what you’re trying to do - the ‘work’ of a group or a person. 
  • for example: I am finishing my project this weekend.
• Emotionality: what you do to prepare to do a task - beliefs/fears/assumptions about what you’re doing
  • for example: I’m doing it wrong/right, I always procrastinate, big fear you’ll never get it done, dream that someone will come and save you from having to do it, etc. 

Traveling survival tips

• Prep your go-bag, tool kit (and consider several plans, not just one, like the ipad, because batteries die)
• Kids will fall apart. They will fall apart when they travel. Be there when they do. What do you need to do to be there for them? Go at your pace. Pick up a treat. Do things to make it easier on you. 
• Get ready to leave the night before. Have things packed. 
• Plan to have a day off once you return. The last day of vacation will always suck, but you can make your return to your day to day so much better.
• Plan on your own breakdown. You’re a good parent/partner and you can reach a limit. It’s the rule, not the exception with travel.

How do you survive family dinners? Sitting at a table until everyone is done? Overstimulation? Sticky conversations and setting boundaries?  David and Isabelle talk concrete tips for getting through family dinners, and even enjoying them—and the truth behind ear worm songs’ lyrics that may pop your Thanksgiving Day Parade Spiderman balloons.
----
David and Isabelle name that any time you’re meeting with family, traveling, disrupting routine, and then you throw in kids—how do we do this? Let’s start with dinner, and then work our way back to how you get there. Whenever you’re going out to eat with family…family is a tricky word. Family describes ritual—people who get together at different times, don’t have to be related. Whoever is in your network, where you go. Kids really need help knowing the story behind people, understanding the story behind Uncle Jack and Aunt Sue—it can help create connecting moments by throwing in novelty. Kids can be really honest and if it’s boring, they may ask: “Why are you boring?” Also, we love Aunt Sue. Partners might use this, too, not just kids. Let alone how family stuff can be so loaded, you may not want to share the same room with some people, there can be anxiety, and anticipatory dread. Part when you’re going to go visit v. hosting—how do we cope with the different layers of anxiety. With a heavier family situation—bring the toolbox, especially with kids. Before you leave, have a backpack, help your child pick toys (even if they’re 14), headphones, and talk about where you can use your phone or play games. What about the interesting power struggle of having kids sit at the table until everyone is finished eating—let’s think about that differently, because sitting for that long is so hard for kids, and adults, with ADHD—and why is hosting so FUN, because you’re always translating your restlessness into effective hosting. Most people with ADHD fall into really good host and amazing networker, and we can also know how to help people feel connected and welcome because we know how hard it can be to be isolated. Take breaks with your child. Be honest about how long it’s going to be (like 3.5 hours, not "just 15 more minutes"), and be realistic about what battles you’re going to pick with your child.  Sometimes when we think about social norms we’re trying to show and build the frustration tolerance in our children—we place such a load and raise the stakes so much for the holidays, and we forget that that is a set up with kids. The more you raise the expectations and raise the stakes, the more it’s asking for disaster. For the parents who feel that pressure, judgment, and family rules—really hard to have an unreasonable expectations and have them passed on. Can be helped to know that expectations are resentments waiting to happen—and let the table know the expectation we’re actually dealing with (eg. We’re trying to help kid finish food, as opposed to sit quietly for an hour). Have a wonderful moment with your family, knowing that the most unconventional moments are the memory makers. Also can be really overstimulating, and have a plan for what to do then ahead of time, and how to manage that. How do we recognize we are overstimulated? Isabelle went to Costco and only realized 3 hours later how she was overstimulated. We’re all going to feel things differently, but certain things will always be overstimulating: loud noise (increases heart rate) and triggers your fear response. Think about that moment you left a loud concert or house party and that moment when you walk into the cold night air and then you take a breath—knowing that we’re overstimulated is really hard to notice (want to work on with a therapist or close friend)—we can tolerate the heat getting turned up really high and we don’t notice it until it’s at a certain point. David knows he’s overstimulated when he’s worried about breaking things or bumping into people. When Isabelle starts to feel she’s obstacle coursing it, that’s when she’s overstimulated. Sometimes being overstimulated is really good, or really bad—it’s not necessarily one thing or another: it's what’s appropriate for the moment. David will sometimes look at his partner where she’s like “we don’t have time for that.” Getting signs and knowing these things, like with your kid—“I noticed that you were walking around with your hands balled up”—“can I check in on you at Meemaw’s house when you’re hands are clenched, maybe we can go on a walk with me?” Walks are important intervention: changes environment, smells open up, visual stimulation, movement. Or have a place in Dodge—a weighted blanket in the basement, watch a couple of TikTok’s. Isabelle describes the giant mega Christmas party they’d attend that included all these pockets of peace and respite—like smoke breaks (side note: folx with ADHD being drawn to the stimulant with nicotine, but also the habit of taking breaks with a few different people). How valuable it might be not only notice your kid’s cues and give them prompting, but also how it might feel for your kid “I’m getting overstimulated, you know I notice my jaw is tight, and I feel like I’m going to bump into things a lot, I need to go for a walk, want to come with me?” We want to make “Calm Down!” not a swear word. It’s usually the opposite effect—we’re often not saying this to ourselves, we’re telling other people to do it. Do it with a partner, the more premeditated it is—you can be predictable and take a break. Boundaries are not personal, even though they almost always feel that way. David uses the example of the briefcase where he keeps his notes—if he saw anyone going near it, he’d freak out, because it has to do with his boundary around client confidentiality, but it’s not about who is doing it (whether it’s a stranger or a partner). You can set the boundary just by changing the subject. We take boundaries personally, we also think boundaries are about what we’re asking the other person to do, when actually—(pause for effect)—the boundary is what you’re going to do. For example, Isabelle will find herself being asked for therapeutic advice at family functions, but the boundary when she doesn’t want someone to talk about the thing, but it’s the moment she changes the subject, walks away, etc. it’s the moment where I actually set the boundary for myself. It’s not about getting the person to stop talking, it’s giving them something to chew on, like a sandwich, so they can’t talk about it. And another caveat: as inveterate people pleaser, Isabelle’s discomfort shoots up, and it doesn’t feel better to her to set a boundary, but it’s a short term huge burst of discomfort that she’s trading for a long haul sense of self-betrayal, or being worn down, or all the bigger consequences that come from not having a boundary. You tend to have to set boundaries again and again, and it rarely gets easier, you just get more well versed at how you do it. This reminds David of putting on sunscreen—it’s so gross, he hates the greasy stuff, but it’s better than getting the sunburn. The boundary setting can be announced or not announced. And one of the powers of ADHD: engage ADHD distraction mode when someone starts talking about something you’re not about. Like do Delorians need special garages so the doors would still open? Like moths to a flame, we might pay more attention to someone when you’re annoying you, or you’re preparing to debate them. David’s method is singing George of the Jungle to get rid of the earworm. Isabelle thinks about the muzak track in the elevator of your brain, and her’s, since childhood, has b...

What do you do when people are openly judging your food sensitivities (or the food sensitivities of your kid)? What's the difference between a soft and hot response to commentary? Why do we go to town over certain foods we love and then have such particular things we dislike and how much the Thanksgiving feast of it all can be about winning the feeling and vibe, rather than 'winning' at some carbon copy idea or expectation of what the holiday (and meal) should be. Filled chock full of food facts, favorite foods, and alternate ways to celebrate, this episode has David and Isabelle so grateful for you, Team Shiny!

----

Isabelle wonders if her experience would have been different if her food sensitivities, then cast as being ‘too picky,’ ‘too sensitive’, had been more the norm in her family friend group growing up. She was the odd one out and that left room for so much judgment and commentary. Meanwhile, she sees her partner Bobby’s family and notes that pretty much everyone has food sensitivities, their yucks and yums, so they accept it and roll with it and stock up on what people like and seem to not be phased by it at all. David relates this to his experience being vegetarian for years and how he would feel when people would immediately show him the vegetarian dish on the menu—but he knows now that this was them looking out for him, verifying that this was a place he could eat. He couldn’t hear it then, but as he got older, he would just say “thank you.” The difference when you’re trying to advocate for your kid as a parent v. Others outside of that. David has his soft response—“if there’s ever a night to eat what you like, it’s with family” and his hot response is “should I follow you and talk about what you eat?” Isabelle noticed that she could change the texture of vegetables and thus reinvent her ability to eat vegetables, including the bitter ones she couldn’t handle for so long. There was so much labor put into the food of her Polish Christmas eve celebrations growing up, like pierogi, and there’s this sense of wanting to pass on food pushing and abundance and scarcity. David’s mouth is watering about pocket foods—pierogi, samosas, tamales—delicious. Which links up Isabelle’s fun fact about fried chicken—that frying preserves the food! And then, isn’t it technically a pocket food, too? But, as David points out—the bone! But, Isabelle counters, what about tenders? So is a chicken tender a pocket food with no other filling but chicken? And also foods on sticks. Isabelle likes the risk involved and also chewing on the stick. David doesn’t understand how to eat the food off the stick, but there’s a big difference between impulsive behavior and well thought out behavior. David and Isabelle are now very hungry. Isabelle asks if traditions really aren’t about transmitting memories, and if so, kids won’t remember the meal you served, but they will remember the feeling that someone stood up for them and their needs?  David reframes this: are you trying to win an argument (about food) or win a feeling? Are you aiming for togetherness and connection—it’s not the day to argue about the food, or the screen, or the phone—give yourself that day. This brings Isabelle to asking David about jello with chunks in it, if he likes that kind of texture, and he doesn’t, he likes hard jello. Isabelle is confused by what he means and describes aspic served for Polish Easter, and furthermore, one of the most neurodivergent ways of relating to food, which can include eating copious amounts of the things we love repeatedly. For her, on another holiday with another food profile, she ate 27 eggs. In one day. Gave herself hives from the eggs. And that’s not including the mayonnaise. David meant hard jello like jello made with apple juice. Also as a former bartender, David cautions everyone about drinking and driving around Thanksgiving, a holiday notorious for stress and overindulging, and also about the dangers of alcohol soaked foods like jello shots. And he is grateful to Isabelle and to Team Shiny (we love you, Team Shiny!) For all we have made together, for all the people who now know more about ADHD or have new diagnoses: we’re sad you had to get a diagnosis and happy you had to get a diagnosis? We’re here for all of it. Have a great holiday!

The backstory behind Nashville hot chicken

Frying as a way to preserve food - "Since fried chicken traveled well in hot weather before refrigeration was commonplace and industry growth reduced its cost, it gained further favor across the South." (Source: Wikipedia)

Fascinating rabbithole of a site that makes industrial fryers -- most processed foods are fried!

Recipe for ‘hard jello’ aka Jell-o jigglers (which sadly does not mention apple juice, but does specify the water to gelatin ratio)

And bonus: how to make gelatin out of any fruit juice (like apple juice)

-----

Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

This week we're revisiting what happens when you show up at a holiday meal and immediately realize with a sinking feeling- "Not again…I can't eat anything here…" From honoring the cook's efforts while not betraying your own needs, to recognizing the joys of chewing on pens and ice, join David and Isabelle as we embrace our sensory sensitivities and make our own neurodivergent-friendly and inclusive traditions. Check out our Holiday Survival Guide! Part of a holiday prep series designed to help take some pressure off the holiday season.

——

David and Isabelle stare down the fast moving train of holidays and expectations that is barreling toward us right now. As we approach Thanksgiving we have a bunch of "shoulds" coming at us--we should be like everyone else and even though we have sensory issues with cars, and sounds, and people, and all that stuff. Everything from sitting still from being held hostage on a plane or in the car, or being stuck in a service or sit at a table, or eating - the sound, the food, the overstimulation, while simultaneously coupled with frustration and your routine being destroyed, and all of this at the same time. This explains why Isabelle has a lurching sense of dread approaching this time of year. The holiday dread is real. David and Isabelle have covered other aspects of holidays, like speaking with family, and the glories and pains of holiday travel, and here they are focusing on food and sensory sensitivities. Isabelle remembers how growing up she was known as a picky eater but actually there were a lot of sensory sensitivities going on. She had memories of celebrating “wigilia” (Polish Christmas Eve celebration) and sitting at a much larger table, with much more eyes on her, and as someone who only ate pretty much chicken and white rice and potatoes, she was facing down a traditional non-meat meal of 12 mostly fish-based dishes (such as pickled herring). You fast before this evening meal, and then you commence the eating. She would be lightheaded and nauseous because she’d be so hungry and would fill up on dinner rolls with butter, everyone is judging and commenting, then she lives on the high of opening presents, and then they’d go to midnight mass at midnight, and then they’d light candles and means the oxygen is rapidly leaving the area in an enclosed place and so she’d either pass out and throw up. Everyone can look back in time and find the holiday memories of “we can’t believe we did that on purpose.” We don’t make time any other time of year to have these rituals, and see each other, and it's really about connections, yet we get caught up in following these rules that don’t always work. Isabelle thinks about how for years she carried the shame around this being her fault, she’s the picky eater that would end up passing out or throwing up, but then thinks about how easy it would’ve been to provide some kind of option for her. That there are traditions and ways of keeping the meaning behind the traditions, but also making even small accommodations that can make all the difference to us. How we can always make new traditions. There’s a really hard part with food: there are people that work really hard for hours in the kitchen and they want you to try and see what you like about it and not like about it—how can we try certain things that work for us, and how can we bring our own food—like here’s my tub of Mac and cheese, there has to be a middle path. The way to be a gracious guest and host, and how as neurodivergent folks we can prefer to host because it gives us structure, she can stay on her feet, it helps her mask less. What is this about ADHD and food sensitivities? There’s a lot around taste aversion, what happens when we associate a food item with a thought in our head—like “eww, this tastes like sand” and we don’t eat sand…or boogers. To make the eating experience a lot more about the flavors they’re experiencing rather than the thought in the brain. Is it salty? Sweet? Savory? Textures? David is a texture person, there is a fine line between “this is edible” and “this makes me gag”—like bananas, one day to the next changes. Isabelle and David firmly agree on bananas being this type of thing, and Isabelle does not do overripe bananas, you make it a cooking liquid and you put it in banana bread. David also likes drinkable yogurt and he doesn’t mind it because he’s drinking it. If he’s moving his mouth hole up and down there needs to be something there to fight my mouth.” And crunching is stimulating and stress reducing. Whether we’re chewing ice or almost-cutting-the-top-of-your-mouth bread crust. Is it the act of chewing that’s stress reducing, or something crunchy is stress reducing? Isabelle notices chewy things, like gum, gummy chews, and chip crunch, or a cold crunch, she does not like it—there are special ice cubes that collapse in your mouth that shrink in your mouth. Tiny ball ices at Sonic or certain places have that. David knows chewing gum is a stimulation, and David is hazarding guesses with the crunching thing (like it’s objectively dominating something in your mouth, or you’re making progress, or it’s the sound itself)—there are a lot of parts of that that is soothing. If it’s paired with dopamine, your chocolate chip cookie crunch is paired with delight and celery crunch is a HORROR to Isabelle. David’s favorite crunch is an apple-pear crunch, or a jicama crunch. What is an apple-pear? What is it exactly? This links us to grapples (apples that taste like grapes), and cotton-candy grapes (it’s too much) and champagne grapes and boba. Isabelle loves it, and David describes how he never got boba, he just thought they were fun to launch and make stick to the things, and then years later, it was cold, and he got the boba and then he had a moment when all of a sudden, he chewed it up and was like boba. “Boba, you’re delicious!” And now he’s a full boba fan. There was a challenge to himself to experience it again. Isabelle wants to go on 800 food related tangents and realizes it might be a food related special interest. The sound of the crunch is a tiny sonic boom in your mouth. And David leans on a couch with his hand on his chin and his finger got in and he accidentally came down on his finger absentmindedly, and you can’t even pretend to bite yourself, oh my goodness, it is so painful and powerful. Every time Isabelle bites her tongue or cheek it feels like she severs her tongue. But also, why did David put his finger in his mouth accidentally? And if he put his finger in his mouth and chew it. Isabelle loved chewing pen cap (old school pic pen caps), and she’d chew on everything. She’d also chew on lollipop sticks, she chews on the cupcake wrapper, she doesn’t ingest these things and doesn’t like chewing, but she loves chewing paper and the pen cap, and it got vertical in her mouth and it sliced a line in the center of the tongue, and she still has a divet. Every single person who is listening has done something like that, or has eaten too many sour patch kids, or has eaten hot pizza too fast and burned their mouth open. This connects to masking and needing stimulation, and a little bit of clumsiness, oral gratification, and it’s important. Switching and making new fantasies for the holidays: if you have a picky eater, why don’t you make that with them and bring that with them? Don’t let the family shame you and make you thing you’re doing anything wrong. Take care of your family. Including yourself. So many of us will give kids the room to offer them to...

Is there a way to switch gears even when you're running late, overhwhelmed, and already past crispy? Isabelle and David explore how changing gears, especially during a transition--whether it's starting a conversation, leaving the house, beginning a work task--is up to us and how hard and real the struggle is and how important it can be to get your reps in. From potato sprouts and Carl Rogers, to neurodivergent trauma as culture, to all those half finished water bottles underneath your carseat, this conversation embraces what it means to share collective wounds as well as adaptations to a world not built for neurodivergent folx.

----

Isabelle (speaking of a hard moment trying to get herself and her kids out the door when they're already running so late and then stopping, covering her eyes and ears, and just sitting on the couch)-- thought this "busy-ness" was a personality trait, moving on to the next, to the next, to the next—to always be busy, harried, running behind. And you can’t expect the environment to stop when things feel like too much. Pandemic was not a blessing in disguise (that’s BS), and Isabelle’s experience was that on top of the systemic and personal trauma and wanting to chew her own arm off, it was the first time the world did stop to a degree—it took a lot of demands and choices off the table for her. How often when she is burned out and crispy does she want the world to stop, for things to slow down, to quiet down on a sensory level.  And when the world stopped, that wasn’t the answer either, she actually found herself doing more—it’s a lot to realize that the world won’t stop for you and even when it does, it doesn’t address the overwhelm problem. David names that a lot of social expectations changed—doing laundry, doing hygiene. Finding out which things were effective and which weren’t was a lot then. In couples, there’s a big difference between a harsh versus a soft startup, taken from the work of the Gottmans (see links below). The harsh versus soft start up through transitions—are you giving yourself a harsh or a soft start up to a task? What do you need to transition to a particular activity—do you want to get there late, stressed, sweaty? Or do you want to get there and be bored for a bit, because you're about to read to kids in a library and need to come in with less energy? When Isabelle sits and asks for help, she interrupts and resets a harsh start up to a soft start up. She is doing for herself what she wishes another person would do. Sits her down, has her take a moment, helps take away the expectations and demands. Bobby can do that sometimes, but also she can’t expect someone to do that everyday. And it helps her get reps at switching from a soft to a harsh transition. She didn’t think she had a gear shift; she was on and off. It’s existential, you have to reset your own expectations and what it means to stop. Isabelle has to unmask, and reveal how vulnerable she is and ask for what she needs, she has to face trauma. A client of hers recently invented (she thinks?) This term “ADHD trauma.” Being neurodivergent in a neurotypical world that’s constructed to benefit and aid neurotypical ways of being generates trauma by virtue of the not having the right manual. And David calls this ADHD culture. We have different problems with friend groups or making purchases or being an imposter, the thing that makes this podcast fun to listen to. Culture is defined by how we dance with trauma. Every kind of culture—race, class, etc.—sets the standard of how you interact with the world. The feeling of going into a class and forgetting you had a test; all those empty water bottles under the seats, if you could clap your hands and the pile of laundry, the corner you forgot existed—and suddenly we feel better because you’re not the one who is like that. Does having ADHD make me allergic to rigid capitalist systems? There’s two people: the ADHD person is going to look down at the cliff and see apples and yells “apples!” And then the other person hears “oh, apples?” and makes an apple farm. We're not all the same but we do have something in common. Anything that overwhelms our capacity to cope or unable to change it—isn’t any identity the world wants you to change but you can’t going to set you up for overwhelming your capacity to cope (you can’t run from it, hide it, fight it, play dead…etc.) David has a thought: when he was getting kicked out of school, his brain coded that as bad. Fast forward, he ended up going to grad school at Northwestern. And not a lot of people at Northwestern got kicked out of high school. It’s definitely not something that you talked about. But then, he started working and advocating with Eye to Eye and other groups—suddenly, his story had worth. The amount of relief he started to see on kids faces that “oh, you can recover from every mistake” and he wasn’t proud when it happened, but now it’s an important part of his origin story. In community and connection, the very thing you’re hiding is what I'm hiding--whoa, we don't have to hide, how much energy we get from not hiding this thing? When David first went to Northwestern he would lie and tell people he went to a local “multidirectional school" —those people weren’t good people and he didn’t want to be branded with those people. Isabelle doesn't want to say where she went to college. Because people from our culture don’t go to schools like that (like Harvard?) David had no models, didn't know how to say it. Everyone ‘thinks they’re the mistake.” Pause for effect, Isabelle went back and looked through her old medical records and she got her records from counseling while at college. In those clinical notes she received an ADHD diagnosis; multiple sessions where she as a client thought she had ADHD, and as many listeners will remember, she didn’t know she had ADHD until 15 years later. Isn't that really interesting—isn't that interesting that she was never told she was diagnosed with ADHD, there was no affirmation or information, and in the notes it indicated even why she was even given the type of antidepressant or weaned off, she walked around telling everyone who knew her "I think I have ADHD because I can’t focus anymore.” She wasn’t told she had a diagnosis. Even when she asked point blank. The world 25 years ago was really different, how much they maybe saved her from a tougher road. When you’re "not supposed to" be there, the messages you get at each of these places, to hide, to shame, to silence, to minimize. "Everyone has some ADHD, right?" The masking component has more consequences to neurospicy culture. We don't have the same the care and feeding instructions as the people around us, we’ll still grow but it's not the same. A potato sprout is going to grow and develop no matter what situation you're in, whether the potato is in the root cellar or planted in the earth (as Carl Rogers states, see actual full quote below). Across animal groups, culture is modifying your environment in order to adapt, at least how Isabelle learned what culture was when studying archaeology and social anthropology in college. We started to cook as a form of survival, the culture we form is the things we try to do to survive and adapt. Because we have to survive and shelter in the same places. Isabelle feels way better being a potato in the root cellar around potatoes also in the root cellar. Or at least better than the shriveled magic spell potato you find behind the drawer—forgotten produce! Another feature of neurodivergent culture.

DEFINITIONS