SpyCast

Loch Johnson (Website, LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss covert action aka “The Third Option.” He is the author of over 30 books on intelligence.

There is perhaps no better guest to join Andrew in this week’s exploration of covert action than Professor Emeritus at the University of Georgia Loch Johnson. Loch’s latest book, The Third Option: Covert Action and American Foreign Policy, examines the history of the complicated and sometimes controversial usage of covert action by the U.S. international affairs. 

Loch’s decades-long career in foreign policy and intelligence has brought him to the forefront of some of the most seminal moments within US intelligence reform: he served as special assistant to the chair of the Church Committee, staff director of the House Subcommittee on Intelligence Oversight, and worked directly with the chair of the Aspin-Brown Commission.

In this two-part episode of SpyCast, Andrew and Loch unpack what makes a covert action operation successful, and how we can learn from intelligence failures and past mistakes. 

And… 

How many people have a society named after them? Loch does! 

"History doesn't like to be shaped, it has a power all of its own, but we try to shape it at least at the margins, and we do that through covert action, sometimes called the third option…and it really comes in four packages. Package number one is propaganda… And then comes political covert actions…Thirdly is economic covert action…And then fourthly, and most dramatically, are paramilitary operations. These are war-like activities." – Loch Johnson.

Loch Johnson (Website, LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss covert action aka “The Third Option.” He is the author of over 30 books on intelligence.

There is perhaps no better guest to join Andrew in this week’s exploration of covert action than Professor Emeritus at the University of Georgia Loch Johnson. Loch’s latest book, The Third Option: Covert Action and American Foreign Policy, examines the history of the complicated and sometimes controversial usage of covert action by the U.S. international affairs. 

Loch’s decades-long career in foreign policy and intelligence has brought him to the forefront of some of the most seminal moments within US intelligence reform: he served as special assistant to the chair of the Church Committee, staff director of the House Subcommittee on Intelligence Oversight, and worked directly with the chair of the Aspin-Brown Commission.

In this two-part episode of SpyCast, Andrew and Loch unpack what makes a covert action operation successful, and how we can learn from intelligence failures and past mistakes. 

And… 

How many people have a society named after them? Loch does! 

"History doesn't like to be shaped, it has a power all of its own, but we try to shape it at least at the margins, and we do that through covert action, sometimes called the third option…and it really comes in four packages. Package number one is propaganda… And then comes political covert actions…Thirdly is economic covert action…And then fourthly, and most dramatically, are paramilitary operations. These are war-like activities." – Loch Johnson.

John Mullen (LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss his life and career. He was awarded the Distinguished Intelligence Medal.  

The Pacific Theater of WWII was imprinted on John Mullen as a young boy. He grew up in Seattle on the West Coast and had family members who remembered Boeing factories under camouflaged nets. He had two family members who were killed in that theater in the 1940s. 

John went on to have a stellar CIA career - but one that always had an eye to the East. He went on the become the Assistant Director for Asia and the Pacific, leading all clandestine activity across this huge region, and spent time as a CIA Station Chief in the Far East. He has since co-founded his own firm and is currently engaged in protecting innovation at Strider Technologies as an Executive Vice President. 

Ever wondered what it’d be like to join the CIA or to leave it to work in corporate America? 

I have a feeling John might be able to help…

And…

Business intelligence, competitive intelligence, product intelligence, workforce intelligence: in case you haven’t noticed – intel is everywhere these days! 

Honestly, in my 30 years, at CIA, there were probably less than two handfuls of days. I woke up and wasn't excited about going to work. – John Mullen.

• The Pacific War, WELT (2021) [documentary]

• The American Battle Monuments Commission maintains 26 military cemeteries and memorials in 17 different foreign countries around the world that honor Americans that served in World War I and World War II. If you have a family member buried abroad, you can utilize ABMC’s Burial Search to locate their records. 

Henry Schlesinger (Rare Bird Books) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss two of the most mysterious and alluring forces in human history: sex and spying. He is a journalist and author proudly based out of NYC. 

What You’ll Learn

Sex. Espionage. Sometimes they both overlap by accident...but sometimes it's entirely intentional. From Samson and Delilah in the Bible to the Profumo Affair that rocked British society in the 1960’s, they are a heady and dramatic combination.

But how is sex used in modern espionage? How do the professionals combine them, if indeed they do? What myths surround the use of both? How have men and women used sex and seduction to spy? 

To answer these questions and more, Andrew sat down with Henry Schlesinger to discuss his newest book, Honey Trapped: Sex, Betrayal, and Weaponized Love, which explores the fascinating relationship between sex and spying. 

And… 

You know about Benjamin Franklin in Paris as a “bon vivant, wily diplomat and aging lion,” but read Henry’s article about him as the “Founding Forger” engaged in disinformation and fake news during the Revolution!

“The thing about espionage is that it encompasses the best in human beings and the worst and everything in between.” – Henry Schlesinger.

Bryan Vorndran (Website, LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss how the FBI has adapted to the digital age. As Bryan says, “We are not your grandparents FBI.”

When Bryan Vorndran attended the FBI Academy in 2003, cyber was not on his personal radar, nor was it on Quantico’s vigorous training schedule. Now, almost 20 years later, Bryan serves as the Assistant Director of the FBI’s Cyber Division. 

What changed in those 20 years to bring Bryan to the forefront of the cyber battlefield, and how have the tactics and strategies used in this used in this field evolved alongside the ever-changing face of cyber? 

Tune into this week’s SpyCast episode to find out! 

The FBI has historically been associated with law enforcement and criminal justice. How does cyber fit into this world, and what is the FBI’s strategy for defending the country against cyber adversaries? 

And…

Check out the FBI Cyber's Most Wanted list. A look through the details on each of these wanted posters can give you a better idea of the vast array of cyber-crimes committed around the world. 

“We will not arrest our way out of the ransomware problem. We are not going to arrest our way out of the Russia China Nation state cyber vector problem. Right? It's just not going to happen. But again, national tool power is something we will always do, but there has to be a way to degrade the ecosystem to make their life more challenging.” – Bryan Vordran.

• Quiz: Test your knowledge of the FBI in pop culture!

Brian Vorndran (Website, LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss how the FBI has adapted to the digital age. As Brian says, “We are not your grandparents FBI.”

When Brian Vorndran attended the FBI Academy in 2003, cyber was not on his personal radar, nor was it on Quantico’s vigorous training schedule. Now, almost 20 years later, Brian serves as the Assistant Director of the FBI’s Cyber Division. 

What changed in those 20 years to bring Brian to the forefront of the cyber battlefield, and how have the tactics and strategies used in this used in this field evolved alongside the ever-changing face of cyber? 

Tune into this week’s SpyCast episode to find out! 

The FBI has historically been associated with law enforcement and criminal justice. How does cyber fit into this world, and what is the FBI’s strategy for defending the country against cyber adversaries? 

And…

Check out the FBI Cyber's Most Wanted list. A look through the details on each of these wanted posters can give you a better idea of the vast array of cyber-crimes committed around the world. 

“We will not arrest our way out of the ransomware problem. We are not going to arrest our way out of the Russia China Nation state cyber vector problem. Right? It's just not going to happen. But again, national tool power is something we will always do, but there has to be a way to degrade the ecosystem to make their life more challenging.” – Bryan Vordran.

• Quiz: Test your knowledge of the FBI in pop culture!

Aynne Kokas (LinkedIn; Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss her book "Trafficking Data: How China is Winning the Battle for Digital Sovereignty."

Bob Sutton (LinkedIn; Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss the mysterious intelligence site P.O. Box 1142. High-value Nazis were interrogated here during WWII.

This week’s guest is the former Chief Historian of the National Park Service, Bob Sutton, and what a wonderful conversation we had.

His book, Nazis on the Potomac: The Top-Secret Intelligence Operation that Helped Win WWII, tells the story of military intelligence facility P.O. Box 1142 – present day Fort Hunt, around 15 miles south of Washington DC.It was here, between 1942-1945, that around three and a half thousand high level German prisoners were interrogated, captured documents analyzed, and ways to help Americans escape and evade Nazis in occupied Europe studied.

This story is particularly incredible, because many of the interrogators were German born Jews.

This story was almost lost to history, but thankfully because of the NPS and Bob Sutton, it never will be.

[Conflict of interest disclosure, Andrew has an “America the Beautiful” Annual Pass].

And…

John W. Kluge arrived in the United States from Germany not speaking a word of English in 1922. He was 8 years old. He would go on to be the head of the Military Intelligence Research Section (MIRS) at P.O. Box 1142. After the war, he would go on to become the richest man in the United States. He was so appreciative of America, that he provided funds to Columbia University and The Library Congress to provide opportunities to future students and scholars. Andrew is a former John W. Kluge Fellow at the Library of Congress and therefore a direct recipient of his philanthropy for which he is grateful.

"Doing what we did at Fort Hunt is actually fairly unusual, where we didn't know the story. We were able to locate people, we were able to get money, we could actually interview everybody that we found…That's relatively unusual." – Bob Sutton

Ryan Zimmerman (MLB Stats; Wikipedia) and Marc Polymeropoulos (Twitter; LinkedIn) join Andrew to discuss intelligence and America’s pastime. From the SpyCast Field of Dreams.

Buy me some peanuts and crackerjack. Few things in the world compare to sitting back, putting your feet up, and cracking open a cold one while watching the World Series. 

For the 2021 World Series Marc joined us for a fantastic discussion on the links between baseball and espionage. How do we top that? A baseball fanatic ex-CIA officer? 

Why, how about getting a first-round draft pick, World Series Champion with over 6500 at-bats? Done! Enter Ryan Zimmerman, Mr. National! 

Ever wondered about signs-stealing, how to run a baseball counterintelligence operation, or what some of the many, many links are between baseball and espionage? You’ve come to the right place for a discussion that goes to the bottom of the ninth inning over a two-episode conversation.

Ryan played for the Nationals from 2005, when he was a first-round draft pick, through to 2021, when his #11 jersey was retired. He is an ex- All-Star, Silver Slugger, Gold Glove winner, and 2019 World Series Champion. 

Marc is a highly decorated former CIA operations officer who specialized in counterterrorism, the Middle East, and South Asia. Prior to his retirement, he served at CIA headquarters in charge of clandestine operations in Europe and Eurasia. He is the author of the 2021 book, “Clarity in Crisis: Leadership Lessons from the CIA.”

And…

“Big Data” is upending many fields, not least baseball and espionage. Gaining a competitive edge is central to both activities, the big argument is about how much “soul” is lost along the way. The Houston Astros have been a lighting-rod team, whose “smart and modern” or “cold and cynical” approach has been discussed at Penn's Wharton School of Business and in the pages of the Harvard Business Review. 

"I think “Dare to Fail” is enormous. I would want you to put me up at the bases load in the bottom of the ninth. I'll take it every single time. Even if I feel like I have zero chance, I want to be there." - Ryan Zimmerman

"You know, you have to have that mentality in these professions." - Marc Polymeropoulos

• Get “Analytics Certification” from the Society for American Baseball Research (SABR) - which is where the term “sabermetrics” comes from!

Ryan Zimmerman (MLB Stats; Wikipedia) and Marc Polymeropoulos (Twitter; LinkedIn) join Andrew to discuss intelligence and America’s pastime. From the SpyCast Field of Dreams.

Buy me some peanuts and crackerjack. Few things in the world compare to sitting back, putting your feet up, and cracking open a cold one while watching the World Series. 

For the 2021 World Series Marc joined us for a fantastic discussion on the links between baseball and espionage. How do we top that? A baseball fanatic ex-CIA officer? 

Why, how about getting a first-round draft pick, World Series Champion with over 6500 at-bats? Done! Enter Ryan Zimmerman, Mr. National! 

Ever wondered about signs-stealing, how to run a baseball counterintelligence operation, or what some of the many, many links are between baseball and espionage? You’ve come to the right place for a discussion that goes to the bottom of the ninth inning over a two-episode conversation.

Ryan played for the Nationals from 2005, when he was a first-round draft pick, through to 2021, when his #11 jersey was retired. He is an ex- All-Star, Silver Slugger, Gold Glove winner, and 2019 World Series Champion. 

Marc is a highly decorated former CIA operations officer who specialized in counterterrorism, the Middle East, and South Asia. Prior to his retirement, he served at CIA headquarters in charge of clandestine operations in Europe and Eurasia. He is the author of the 2021 book, “Clarity in Crisis: Leadership Lessons from the CIA.”

And…

“Big Data” is upending many fields, not least baseball and espionage. Gaining a competitive edge is central to both activities, the big argument is about how much “soul” is lost along the way. The Houston Astros have been a lighting-rod team, whose “smart and modern” or “cold and cynical” approach has been discussed at Penn's Wharton School of Business and in the pages of the Harvard Business Review. 

"I think “Dare to Fail” is enormous. I would want you to put me up at the bases load in the bottom of the ninth. I'll take it every single time. Even if I feel like I have zero chance, I want to be there." - Ryan Zimmerman

"You know, you have to have that mentality in these professions." - Marc Polymeropoulos

• Get “Analytics Certification” from the Society for American Baseball Research (SABR) - which is where the term “sabermetrics” comes from!