SpyCast

David McCloskey (Twitter; Website) and James Stejskal (Twitter; LinkedIn) join Andrew to discuss writing about espionage. They are both former intelligence officers.  

Hear two intelligence formers discuss life as current novelists. 

Where does fact end, and fiction begin when you are a former CIA officer writing fiction? What parts of your own story bleed into the novel? Are the characters composites of people you knew in your line of work or are they entirely fictional? 

To answer these questions and more, this week, I sat down with David McCloskey, former CIA analyst and author of Damascus Station, a book David Petraeus described as “the best spy novel I have ever read,” and James Stejskal, author of Appointment in Tehran, which has been called “a textbook clandestine operation involving…US Army Special Forces and a clandestine CIA Case Officer,” which James would know something about, since he was both. 

And…

Spy fiction received quite the blow in the space of a 6-month period (Dec 2020-May 2021) which saw the passing of both John Le Carre and Jason Matthews, two formers who served in British and American intelligence. Le Carre was in MI5 and MI6 while Matthews had a long career in the CIA. David and James join a distinguished cast of formers who became novelists, including Ian Fleming, Graham Greene and Dame Stella Rimington. 

"There are far more edits on, short articles I wrote that weren't even going to the president than on the book, so your writing is being critiqued at all levels. I I think when I did write for the PDB [Presidential Daily Brief], I don't think I'm making this up, I believe it was 9 or 10 layers of review. You could probably argue that sometimes that makes it worse, but you have to be able at all stages to roll with the punches and to write and to try to make things very clear." – David McCloskey.

Janosh Neumann (LinkedIn; Website) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss life in the FSB. He was born in the Soviet Union to parents in the “business.” 

Have you ever wondered how a Russian intelligence officer is trained? Ever wondered what it would be like to be a defector? Ever wondered what it’d be like to be given three choices, shoot yourself, get shot, or go on the run?

If so, you’ll enjoy this week’s episode with Jan Neumann, who was born Alexy Yurievich Artamonov in the former Soviet Union. 

Jan’s father was a KGB internal affairs officer, and he would go on to join one of its successors, the FSB, or Federal Security Service, in which his wife also served. He speaks about a number of projects he is involved in, here in the States, where he now resides.

And…

Jan is the Co-Founder of RealSpyComics, which will be the first independent comic publisher dedicated to telling true intelligence stories. The International Spy Museum is a partner on this venture, because if there is one thing, we have a lot of – its spy stories!

"I'm not a big fan of ballet, but one of my sources was a big ballet fan. So, I had to go to the Bolshoi Theater, watch this again, and again, and again, I had to do some learning to be able to talk to the guy. And same thing was happening with the art as well. so going to some galleries and talk to the people, be sure that they're using at least same terminology as they are, to be able in the future to support the conversation, be interesting to this person whom you're trying to approach." – Janosh Neumann

Chris Costa (LinkedIn; Website) and John Quattrocki (LinkedIn; Website) join Andrew to discuss coming in from the Cold War. They both had long illustrious careers in intelligence.

The Windy City Episode. 

The Pritzker Military Museum and Library (PMML) in Chicago is well worth a visit. Located on Michigan Avenue overlooking Grant Park and Lake Michigan – there’s three additional attractions right there – you will not be disappointed. SPY teamed up with PMML to put on what would become this week’s episode.

To discuss coming in from the Cold War intelligence landscape, Executive Director of SPY Chris Costa and AFIO board member John Quattrocki sat down for a panel discussion with Andrew. 

Chris, a former intelligence officer of 34 years with 25 of those in active duty in hot spots such as Panama, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq, is also a past Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Counterterrorism on the NSC. John retired from the Senior Executive Service (SES - 4) as a Special Agent of the FBI with 19 years of operational experience against the Soviet Union/Russia, the Warsaw Pact, East Asia, Islamic extremist groups, and domestic terrorism. He also served on the NSC as the Director of Counterintelligence Programs.

And…

Pritzker Military Museum & Library’s mission is to “increase the public’s understanding of military history.” The International Spy Museum’s mission is to “educate the public about espionage and intelligence.” As you can see, then, in the military-intelligence-espionage national security continuum, we are pretty much as good a partnership as it gets. 

"The government has seen the counterintelligence (CI) resources as a kind of a human capital escrow account to draw on for other elements to the government. And in, so doing, we have started to lend our CI bodies to the private sector. So, we are providing indirect cost support to the private sector for their CI responsibilities, rather than causing them to acquit all their own CI responsibilities." – John Quattrocki

"I was not entirely satisfied with the idea of being between wars, because we were trained as infantry men. Our job was to prepare to go to war. And then I said, you know what? I wanna fight against our adversaries on a different plane, multilevel chess, if you will. And that's what brought me into the intelligence business." – Chris Costa

Alexis Albion (LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss Kim Philby using some of his personal belongings as prompts. This episode on the Soviet mole inside MI6 coincides with SPY’s 20th Anniversary.

The Cambridge Five are some of the most notable and notorious traitors in British history, and among them one man stands out in a way that has led some to call him, “The Spy of the Century,” MI6 officer Kim Philby. How did a quintessential Englishman who came from the “right” stock and went to the “right” schools become a Soviet mole? How did a genial chum come to haunt the corridors of British and American intelligence like a ghastly apparition? 

Dr. Alexis Albion is this week’s guest and the Curator of Special Projects at the International Spy Museum. She was formerly on the 9/11 Commission Report, the World Bank and the U.S. Department of State.

In this is a first of a kind podcast, Alexis and Andrew sat down with some of Philby’s personal belongings drawn from our world-leading collection of artifacts on espionage and intelligence. 

And…

Harold Adrian Russell Philby acquired the nickname “Kim” from the main character in Rudyard Kipling’s novel Kim, an orphan-boy-cum-spy in British India. Kim and Philby also have the Punjab in common, the novel begins in Lahore and Philby was born in Ambala, although the historic region was partitioned between Pakistan and India in 1947. The drive between Lahore and Ambala is roughly similar to that between Los Angeles and San Francisco.

"So why is he The Spy of the Century? Maybe the fact that he's not identified with any particular event or set of information [e.g., unlike Julius Rosenberg], but he's identified with this idea of betraying his Englishness is perhaps why he's been such a lasting figure because he almost is a touchpoint for the history of the 20th century and England. Great Britain's demise is a great power."

Jim Olson (Website) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss Putin and Russia. He had a 31-year career with the CIA including a tour in Moscow.

“James Olson is a legend in the clandestine service,” not my description of this week’s guest, but that of former CIA Director and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. Jim spent 31 years in the CIA, including tours in Moscow, Vienna & Mexico City, and rose to become Chief of CIA Counterintelligence. He is the author of Fair Play and To Catch a Spy. 

He joined Andrew to speak about Russia. He speaks the language, spent time living and working in the country, where he was involved in one particularly daring operation that he shares with us in the episode, and he faced off against the organization that would go on to become the current SVR and FSB – the KGB.

Jim has had Vladimir Putin on his radar for many a year, and he doesn’t pull any punches reflecting on his trajectory in this episode.

And…

Jim grew up in a small town in Iowa where, “we didn’t really follow international affairs, we joked among ourselves…if it didn’t affect the price of corn, we weren’t really interested.” My, how things changed for Jim.

"I have tremendous respect for the Russian people. They are long suffering. I've gotten to know many Russians. I've worked with a lot of Russians. I found them to be people who had a real soul. They had a human qualities that I could admire, but they were locked into a repressive regime that did not allow them to express any of those human sentiments that that they felt." – Jim Olson

John Gise joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss the Wall of Spies Experience. It features over 200 stories of espionage and sabotage in America since 1776.

The Wall of Spies Experience features over 200 stories of espionage, sabotage and betrayal from American history. The physical wall is a private museum on an intelligence community facility, but the second installment of the Digital Wall of Spies has recently been released. Thus far we have the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, with WWI coming up next. 

Whether you want to get a sense of the evolution of espionage in America, dork out on a particular historical period, or just have a browse – we are sure you will agree that this National Counterintelligence & Security Center (NCSC) sponsored exhibit is a welcome contribution to the public’s understanding of the history of intelligence and espionage.

This week’s guest is John Gise, for whom the Wall of Spies was a labor of love. He has had a number of different roles across the US government, including a stint in Special Forces, but for now, spies from American history are with him while awake…and while asleep. 

And…

If you’ve ever wondered why you can’t visit the Statue of Liberty’s torch, you need to listen to the teaser John provides at the end of this episode on the next installment of the Digital Wall of Spies (we’ll give you a clue…it’s the opposite of White Jerry).

"We've now posted online…the digital revolutionary war spies, the digital civil war spies…And we're talking in the revolutionary war about 30 continental army spies and British spies…for the civil war, it's about 25 Union spies and Confederate spies. And many of those spies are also Scouts, right? Collecting information, going behind enemy lines, conducting reconnaissance missions and collecting intelligence for their superiors." – John Gise.

Vikram Sood (Twitter, Blog) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss intelligence in the world’s largest democracy. He was the chief of India’s Research & Analysis Wing (R&AW). 

This is the final installment of our month long special on SPY CHIEFS, featuring Vikram Sood. former Director of India’s foreign intelligence agency, the Research & Analysis Wing (RA&W). This episode from the vault was recorded during the darkest days of the pandemic when the International Spy Museum was closed, infections and deaths were sky high, and Andrew was at home in his living room with Vikram at his in New Delhi. 

So, is the R&AW similar to the CIA or MI6 or both? Does it have a covert action capability? How focused is it on China and Pakistan? Who does the Director report to? To hear the answers tune in to listen to an Indian Spy Chief who was in office in the critical years 2000-2003. 

Vikram was in the intelligence business for more than thirty years, since leaving as the professional head of India’s foreign intelligence agency he went on to have a successful second career at the think-tank, Observer Research Foundation, which is based in New Delhi. He is the author of two books (see below).

And…

Depending on the source, India has more, a little less, or roughly the same number of Muslims as Pakistan. An incredible fact when you consider that Pakistan is generally in the top five for having the largest population in the world. In fact, India has a larger population than the United States, Pakistan, Indonesia, Brazil and Nigeria combined. 

"There is immense tension in the job because anything can go wrong any day and you will be held responsible if there is another bomb blast somewhere else. But if the leadership is supportive and it's understanding, and also contributes to helping you decide things, takes decisions for you that need politically clearances. That helps a lot that takes away the anxieties, it keeps the blood pressure down." – Vikram Sood

Ellen McCarthy (Twitter; LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss her career and time as head of the State Department’s intelligence agency. INR is one of the 18 U.S. intelligence agencies.

Imagine seeing a pyramid from different angles and different heights instead of from one vantage point? You get a better sense of what it truly looks like, its dimensions, colors, idiosyncrasies, and the shadows it casts, right?

Ellen McCarthy has seen more of the U.S. Intelligence Community (IC) pyramid than most: she started as a junior analyst for the U.S. Navy Office of Naval Intelligence and ended up as the head of the State Dept.’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR). Along the way, she was with the U.S. Coast Guard, in the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, and at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency. 

Quite the journey, I am sure you will agree…

And…

INR has been called the “biggest little intelligence shop in town” and its morning intelligence summary, “Better than Wheaties.” The NYT called it the “least wrong” intelligence agency on Iraq possessing weapons of mass destruction (WMD), and it has been credited for a more accurate assessment of Ukraine’s ability to withstand Russia than its peers. “They get paid attention to because they’re good and they tend to be contrarian,” notes a former chair of the National Intelligence Council. How do they manage this? Well, big question, but the deep, deep expertise of their staff – who are on average on their regional or functional area for over a decade – as well as an “intolerance for mediocrity” would be good places to start.

"The Geographer of the United States sits in INR. I don't think a lot of people know that. So, when there's a boundary dispute or you've got countries trying to build islands, it's INR that's actually working what the legal boundaries are. The other thing that INR does that a lot of folks don't know about is polling. Polling in the intelligence community is conducted at INR…And I will tell you that the polling capability at INR is the best I've ever seen." – Ellen McCarthy 

Ellen McCarthy (Twitter; LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss her career and time as head of the State Department’s intelligence agency. INR is one of the 18 U.S. intelligence agencies.

Imagine seeing a pyramid from different angles and different heights instead of from one vantage point? You get a better sense of what it truly looks like, its dimensions, colors, idiosyncrasies, and the shadows it casts, right?

Ellen McCarthy has seen more of the U.S. Intelligence Community (IC) pyramid than most: she started as a junior analyst for the U.S. Navy Office of Naval Intelligence and ended up as the head of the State Dept.’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR). Along the way, she was with the U.S. Coast Guard, in the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, and at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency. 

Quite the journey, I am sure you will agree…

And…

INR has been called the “biggest little intelligence shop in town” and its morning intelligence summary, “Better than Wheaties.” The NYT called it the “least wrong” intelligence agency on Iraq possessing weapons of mass destruction (WMD), and it has been credited for a more accurate assessment of Ukraine’s ability to withstand Russia than its peers. “They get paid attention to because they’re good and they tend to be contrarian,” notes a former chair of the National Intelligence Council. How do they manage this? Well, big question, but the deep, deep expertise of their staff – who are on average on their regional or functional area for over a decade – as well as an “intolerance for mediocrity” would be good places to start.

"The Geographer of the United States sits in INR. I don't think a lot of people know that. So, when there's a boundary dispute or you've got countries trying to build islands, it's INR that's actually working what the legal boundaries are. The other thing that INR does that a lot of folks don't know about is polling. Polling in the intelligence community is conducted at INR…And I will tell you that the polling capability at INR is the best I've ever seen." – Ellen McCarthy 

 Summary

Mike Burgess (Website; Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss his agency and the enduring strength of Australia’s alliances. ASIO is the second intelligence agency he has directed.

The top job: what is it like? what are the joys and pains of leadership? This is not like leading a business, though, or a soccer team, this is protecting the country and its citizens from terrorism, espionage, sabotage, and external interference. Such is the charge of the Australian Security Intelligence Organization (ASIO).

To address these questions, Andrew sat down with Mike Burgess, who was formerly the Director-General of the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD), comparable to GCHQ and the NSA – an agency would serve in for over 20 years. They also discussed the Australian intelligence landscape and its most important alliances, such as the U.S. and FIVE EYES and some of its important regional relationships. 

And…

Mike and Andrew hit it off, especially when discussing Alex Ferguson and how soccer can help us understand management and leadership. Ferguson won more titles in soccer than any other manager, at 49, and he is generally considered the GOAT or a strong contender. Of course, trophies are extremely important, but they do not capture everything. If you are looking for an example of transformational change of an entire organization and its subsequent culture, HBS could do a lot worse than draft a case study on the legendary leadership of Liverpool F.C. by Bill Shankly. He made people believe.

Talking about FIVE EYES, that's one of those foundational partnerships in our relationships…It's unique because…it was born through WWII. It's an interesting phenomenon because it started its life as a signals intelligence relationship…at its core, it's an intelligence relationship that really has made a difference to each of those five nations’ respective national security…And we do trust each other, and we share our most intimate secrets.