Continuous human presence in orbit has been a cornerstone of U.S. leadership in space for 25 years. But recent changes to NASA’s Commercial LEO Destinations (CLD) strategy have Pam Melroy—former NASA Deputy Administrator and shuttle commander—sounding the alarm. She warns that shifting to short-duration missions risks ceding leadership in LEO and undermining U.S. readiness for Mars, opening the door for China to take the mantle.

On this episode of Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Pam to talk about the state of NASA, the future of space stations, and why requirements, the often overlooked backbone of program management, will determine whether the U.S. stays ahead. We trace her career from test pilot to shuttle commander to senior leadership at NASA, DARPA, and the FAA, and unpack what it means to build an architecture that actually holds together from LEO to Mars.

We also discuss:

• Why continuous presence in LEO is a national security and leadership issue
• How the CLD Phase 2 shift could reshape investor and partner confidence
• The role of SpaceX and Starship in the Moon–Mars roadmap
• What it takes to write requirements that don’t doom a program from the start
• Pam’s vision of LEO, the Moon, and Mars in 2045

…and much more.

This episode is brought to you by World Space Business Week, taking place September 15–19 in Paris. WSBW is one of the leading annual gatherings for the global space industry, bringing together executives, investors, government officials, and innovators from across commercial, defense, and satellite sectors. Learn more at wsbw.com.

• Chapters •

00:00 – Intro
00:55 – WSBW Ad
01:21 – The key to Pam's success
03:32 – The state of NASA
05:01 – NASA in the next decade if we stay in our current trajectory
06:58 – Why is maintaining a human presence in LEO so important?
10:18 – The changing CLD Strategy
15:29 – Cost and impact of continuous vs 30-day missions
18:01 – NASA's requirements
23:50 – Disintegration of requirements
27:32 – Impact of the shift in CLD strategy
29:52 – Why go back to the Moon?
31:35 – Does the media understand the impact of landing on the Moon and Mars?
35:19 – Why do 30-day missions make sense
37:53 – Will China beat us back to the Moon?
41:41 – Cultural impact if China beats us to the Moon
45:17 – Does the Artemis program have the right architecture to succeed?
47:46 – Is NASA too dependent on SpaceX?
52:47 – How much should the U.S. be interested
56:02 – What did leading the space shuttle teach Pam about leadership?
57:54 – Inspiring the next generation of space exploration
58:46 – Prediction 20 years later
01:01:37 – Aliens?

• Show notes •

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear / 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/

Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/

Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
 

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

• Payload: www.payloadspace.com
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com