Lt. Gen. (Ret.) David “Abu” Nahom spent decades defending the American homeland, from commanding Alaska Command and the 11th Air Force to shaping Air Force budgets and strategy as the A8. Mike Dickey started his career in the original Strategic Defense Initiative, helped build the USSF and now advises companies and government leaders on the future of national security. Together, they unpack the realities behind Golden Dome: what it is, what it isn’t, and why it may be the most complex defense undertaking of our time.

Inside the episode:

• Why homeland defense is no longer a Cold War problem and why threats across all domains demand a fundamentally new architecture
• What it actually takes to detect, track, and intercept advanced weapons, from ballistic missiles to hypersonics to low-observable cruise missiles
• How command & control is the real bottleneck, and why BMC2 will define the success or failure of Golden Dome
• Why integrating F-35s, space sensors, legacy radars, and new AI systems is a social-engineering challenge as much as a technical one
• The role of startups in a mission where “move fast and break things” collides with the reality of life-or-death stakes
• Why public perception lags far behind the actual threat picture and what Americans get wrong about homeland defense
• The technologies on the horizon that could completely reshape missile defense in the next decade

• Chapters •

00:00 – Intro
00:41 – David's and Mike's Backgrounds
04:01 – How Elara Nova has grown since last episode
05:17 – What makes Golden Dome different?
08:00 – How exposed has the US been to missile threats?
10:53 – What is the Golden Dome supposed to look like today?
14:02 – Not reinventing the wheel
16:38 – Capabilities of today and tomorrow
23:00 – How new modes of launch change missile defense
24:57 – Integrating new solutions with current systems
27:15 – Golden Dome isn't a technology problem
29:41 – How much does ego play into the social engineering challenge of the Golden Dome?
32:47 – Unable to fail in this startup-driven golden age of space and defense tech
36:11 – Risks of the Golden Dome budget ballooning
39:29 – The deterrence calculus
42:12 – How will Golden Dome interface with our allies
44:20 – Exciting defense tech being developed or doesn’t exist yet
46:29 – How putting weapons in space changes things
48:13 – Golden Dome issues they wish were fixed today
50:24 – What everyday Americans don't understand about the Golden Dome
53:01 – Measurable outcomes that the Golden Dome works
54:56 – What Mike and David do for fun

• Show notes •

Elara Nova’s website — https://elaranova.com/
Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

• Payload: www.payloadspace.com
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Halen Mattison left SpaceX because Elon told him his vision was too long-term. He wanted to build the propellant infrastructure that would unlock Mars and everything between here and there, but the timeline didn't fit SpaceX's roadmap. So he started General Galactic to do it himself.

His team is developing Genesis, a water electrolysis propulsion system that delivers hydrazine-level thrust and xenon-level efficiency using the safest, cheapest, most abundant propellant in the solar system. The company is targeting an orbital demonstration in 2026, with a long-term vision to operate refueling depots from LEO to Mars.

Inside the episode:

• • Why the space industry's fear of new technology is creating a sitting-duck opportunity
• How water electrolysis unlocks both near-term mobility services and long-term ISRU infrastructure
• What "specific impulse" actually means for mission economics and why it matters more than people think
• The Starship refueling challenge and why cryogenic propellant depots will work at scale
• Sequencing from mobility-as-a-service to lunar fuel production to gas stations on Mars
• Why consensus-following investors miss the most ambitious bets and how to tell the contrarian story

• Chapters •

00:00 – Intro
01:11 – When did Halen decide to start his own company?
02:18 – What did Halen do at SpaceX?
02:59 – Deciding moment to devote to a career in aerospace
05:16 – The current state and trajectory of Starship
07:53 – What is General Galactic building?
09:50 – General Galactic's products and end goals
12:12 – General Galactic's perspective shift on mobility in space
16:31 – Architecture vs the current market offerings
21:39 – Why is now the time to build a water electrolysis system?
24:27 – Genesis
25:42 – Hardware in space
26:19 – What would a General Galactic demonstration mission look like?
27:13 – What would product 1 look like?
28:15 – Mission capability unlocks and cost advantage
30:56 – Offering a service
31:27 – Origin and evolution of General Galactic
34:59 – Space companies that sequence well outside of SpaceX
36:06 – 4-year prediction if mobility gets adopted
38:39 – Misunderstandings about Starship's refueling logistics
42:01 – Where would General Galactic fit in the Starship ecosystem?
43:25 – What a v0.1 Mars gas station would look like
44:46 – How difficult is it to protect General Galactic's position with water electrolysis?
46:22 – Lessons from being a founder
49:30 – Sequencing

• Show notes •

General Galactic’s website — https://gengalactic.com/
Halen’s socials — https://x.com/HalenMattison
Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

• Payload: www.payloadspace.com
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Space has a power problem. Satellites need more electricity and better protection, yet solar arrays are slow to build and failure-prone, and shielding adds mass and complexity. Atomic-6 is tackling both sides at once.

Our guest this week is Trevor Smith, founder and CEO of Atomic-6. His team is building Light Wing, a redeployable, mass-manufacturable solar array aimed at higher watts per kilogram and faster delivery, and Space Armor, an RF-permeable debris shield designed to stop hypervelocity impacts while preserving comms and resisting directed energy. The company’s first on-orbit hardware is slated for February 2026, and they’re pursuing multi-billion-dollar constellation opportunities alongside a long-term purchase agreement with a private space-station builder.

Inside the episode:

• Why reliability, not just power density, wins satellite programs
• How a space power gigafactory could reset constellation economics
• What “cell-agnostic” really means for supply chain and performance
• The new “radome for space” capability and where it matters for defense
• Cislunar prospects, lunar-orbit data centers, and vertical solar towers
• Lessons from working with Space Force and navigating dual-use funding
• The state of the U.S. industrial base and why solar arrays are a top supply-chain priority

• Chapters •

00:00 – Intro
00:47 – How Atomic-6 got started
03:06 – Building the power grid for space
04:09 – Why is Atomic-6 building what it's building
05:58 – Dollars per watt per kilo
07:18 – Cell agnostic
07:58 – How Trevor got into the space industry
09:14 – Team construction at Atomic-6
09:49 – What type of people is Atomic-6 looking for?
10:35 – Atomic-6's key product offering
10:58 – Current customers and opportunities at Atomic-6
11:38 – Pipeline
13:07 – Manufacturing scaling
14:04 – How much is an operator spending on solar arrays?
15:12 – Who would we go to today for building a satellite array and what would they be missing?
16:33 – Space Armor
19:44 – What is a radome?
20:34 – Whipple Shield deployment
21:11 – Significance of being transparent to radio signals
21:41 – Terrestrial applications for the Whipple Shield
23:24 – How Atomic-6 came to developing the Whipple Shield
24:48 – Opportunity vs Light Wing and Space Armor
25:38 – Defense traction with Space Armor
26:52 – Atomic-6's business model
29:17 – Milestones
30:35 – Vertical integration
32:34 – Other products that Atomic-6 is developing
33:42 – Developments in advanced materials that will define architecture in space
36:18 – What does success look like for Atomic-6 in 5 to 10 years?
36:59 – What keeps Trevor up at night?
38:05 – Government support
40:17 – The legacy Trevor wants Atomic-6 to leave behind

• Show notes •

Atomic-6’s website — https://www.atomic-6.com/

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  

https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/

Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/

Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

• Payload: www.payloadspace.com
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Satellites are expensive and once launched, mostly untouchable.. That’s the problem Starfish Space is solving. The company is building Otter, a small, autonomous servicing vehicle capable of rendezvousing with, docking to, and moving other satellites in orbit.

On this episode of Valley of Depth, I’m joined by Austin Link, co-founder of Starfish Space. Austin shares how a team of former Blue Origin engineers turned a bold idea into one of the most advanced orbital servicing programs in the world. We trace Starfish’s journey from recovering a tumbling spacecraft spinning 330 degrees per second, to preparing for the first commercial docking of an unprepared satellite in orbit.

We also discuss:

• How Starfish closed the business case for on-orbit servicing
• What it takes to autonomously dock with a satellite moving faster than a bullet
• The economics of life-extension and debris disposal
• Lessons from the Otter Pup missions
• The dual-use future of orbital servicing for defense and resilience
• The long-term vision for a logistics layer in space

…and more.

• Chapters •

00:00 – Intro
00:59 – Starfish's mission
03:02 – Why is now the time to be building on orbit satellite servicing
04:44 – On orbit servicing with the rapid advancement of satellites
07:29 – Why leave Blue Origin to start Starfish?
09:18 – Convincing investors early on
11:22 – Results from Starfish's first few missions
13:40 – Why Starfish has fun with their names
15:43 – How the team de-tumbled the satellite
21:55 – Starfish's upcoming missions
25:37 – When will Starfish start selling their systems?
27:33 – Future business models and commercial vs government split
30:08 – How Starfish helps customers price their ROI
32:26 – Do regulations need to be placed in order for the market to thrive?
35:14 – How Starfish differs from competitors
36:29 – Current size of the satellite servicing market
37:25 – Starfish's key strength
40:19 – Insights on servicing from defense
42:51 – What changes will happen if satellite servicing becomes routine?
44:14 – Starfish's next phase in the business
45:05 – Starfish's North Star
46:19 – Overhyping the Kessler Syndrome
47:41 – What does Austin do besides working on Starfish?

• Show notes •

Starfish’s website — https://www.starfishspace.com/
Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear / https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

• Payload: www.payloadspace.com
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Spacecraft carry all kinds of sensors, but rarely the one humans rely on most: video. Despite offering the richest insight per watt, gram, and dollar, cameras have been largely absent from orbit.That’s what TRL11 is out to change. The company is building radiation-tolerant optics, edge computers that process and compress video in real time, and ground software that turns footage into operational awareness.

On this episode of Valley of Depth, I’m joined by Nicolaas Verheem, founder and CEO of TRL11. Nicolaas shares how his journey from pioneering wireless video at Teradek, work that won both technical Academy and Emmy Awards, led him to ask why space was still flying blind. We trace TRL11’s path from early in-orbit demos to commercial traction with operators and defense, and dig into how edge intelligence and video awareness could transform the space economy.

We also discuss:

• • Why video is the “missing sensor” in space
• • Lessons from TRL11’s first orbital missions
• The three core use cases: health monitoring, mission awareness, and mission enablement
• • How software, not hardware, creates a lasting moat in space video
• • The long-term vision of human-like awareness in space

…and more.

• Chapters •
01:03 – Nicol and Starwars and Startrek
03:10 – Nicol winning an Academy Award and an Emmy
04:14 – Nicol at Teradek
05:13 – How Teradek inspired Nicol's current company TRL11
06:30 – How video applies to the space industry
09:41 – Why do we need video and what problem does it solve?
12:56 – A ring camera for space
17:06 – The story behind the company name
19:32 – TRL11's current product offerings
21:43 – Showing the operator what matters on screen
24:53 – How do you build a space camera?
26:45 – What TRL11 has learned in their early orbit tests
29:06 – TRL11's primary first customers
32:25 – Making the case for investors
36:45 – Should every spacecraft have video onboard?
38:03 – The importance of video for inspiration
40:03 – Misunderstandings when it comes to video from partners, investors, and customers
41:10 – Lessons Nicol learned building a company in the space industry
42:42 – Fundraising at TRL11
44:26 – Legacy and product evolution

• Show notes •

TRL11’s website — https://www.trl11.com/

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  

https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/

Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/

Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

•  Payload: www.payloadspace.com 
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Smallsats have defined the last decade of space, but their limitations are clear: low power, limited throughput, and fragile unit economics. K2 Space is betting on the opposite. The company is building mega class and giga class satellites, platforms measured in tons rather than kilograms, that deliver unprecedented power, capacity, and resilience. By vertically integrating 80 percent of their systems in house, K2 is cutting costs by an order of magnitude and making industrial scale spacecraft a reality.

On this episode of Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Neel Kunjur, cofounder and CTO of K2 Space. Neel traces the journey from early Slack messages about the promise of MEO to a 160 person team building the largest commercial satellites ever attempted. He shares how K2 has reimagined subsystems like reaction wheels, high voltage power, and 20 kW propulsion to unlock entirely new mission architectures in MEO, GEO, and beyond.

We also discuss:

• Why MEO is such an underexplored orbital regime
• The engineering breakthroughs behind large reaction wheels and high voltage power systems
• How stackable satellites change constellation design
• The long term vision for space infrastructure, from in space compute to energy harvesting

…and more.

• Chapters •

00:00 – Intro
00:56 – What's happened in the past two years since K2 has been on the pod
02:13 – The thesis behind K2
03:51 – What does Neel mean by aperture?
04:40 – Why do satellites need to grow in size and power?
06:59 – The rise in Medium Earth Orbit (MEO) chatter
08:49 – Why did Neel leave SpaceX and start K2 with his brother?
12:04 – Building K2 for a post Starship world
14:10 – Current and future K2 offerings
15:32 – 20 Kilowatts vs a small LEO satellite
17:10 – Giga-scale satellite
18:40 – How K2 is able to deliver $15m satellite
21:13 – K2's innovations so far
23:01 – Engineering problems that larger satellite builders have to worry about
25:08 – K2's propulsion solution to get MEO
28:11 – Engineering for Starship's current MEO blindspot
29:18 – Neel's prediction on Starship's refueling rollout
30:14 – Innovation through simplicity
33:24 – How is K2 hiring the talent for their niche challenges
35:52 – How big is K2's team today
36:43 – Key takeaways from K2's first mission
38:22 – Mission Gravitas
39:59 – Orbit race
40:39 – Mission Gravitas: Commercial or DoD?
41:33 – K2's scaling plans
43:03 – Customized vs standardized
45:17 – Overspec'd by design
45:40 – Will K2's success spur more competition?
47:23 – Will satellites become robust, industrial hardware?
48:48 – What's enabled by these large platforms?
51:01 – The paradigm shift happening in engineering for space
52:42 – Will SpaceX own LEO?
55:05 – The name and branding behind K2

• Show notes •

K2’s website — http://www.k2space.com/

K2’s socials — https://x.com/K2SpaceCo

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  

https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/

Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/

Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

• Payload: www.payloadspace.com
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

This episode is presented by L3Harris Technologies.

On this special edition of Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Kristin Houston, President of Space Propulsion and Power Systems at L3Harris. Kristin leads the team responsible for propulsion and space power systems across Artemis and beyond, from the RS-25 main engines to the Gateway’s high-power electric propulsion system to Fission Surface Power (FSP) on the Moon. We dive into how Artemis II is shaping up, the role of SLS, and why nuclear power and propulsion may be the linchpin of America’s long-term space presence.

We also discuss:

• What Artemis II is designed to prove, and why precision on Artemis I mattered so much
• How Artemis ties directly into national security and the new lunar race with China
• FSP – what it is, why it matters, and why NASA is accelerating it now
• Nuclear propulsion: hype vs. physics, and how soon it could be operational
• Why maneuverability in space is becoming the next strategic advantage
• Golden Dome and how propulsion/power innovations fit into the architecture
• The propulsion milestone Kristin wants to see in the next 10 years

…and much more.

Check out this Valley of Depth on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube.

• Chapters •

00:00 – Intro
00:47 – Kristin's background
03:47 – Why are we going back to the Moon?
07:10 – State of the Artemis program
09:28 – L3Harris's involvement in Artemis
10:48 – What does success look like for Artemis 2?
12:38 – Orbital maneuvers and landing
14:35 – Lessons from Artemis I that's giving confidence into Artemis II
15:45 – Artemis II readiness, risk, and pacing
16:39 – What needs to go right in Artemis II
18:55 – The need for the SLS rocket
19:57 – The criticism of the SLS
22:28 – Could Starship and the SLS coexist?
24:33 – National security ROI for sustained Lunar operations
27:02 – Are we underestimating China?
27:40 – What if China gets to the Moon first?
31:13 – The question about power
34:59 – Minimum power requirements on the Moon
35:45 – Government's renewed focus on nuclear
36:57 – How far away are we from nuclear propulsion?
39:27 – Maneuverability in space
42:20 – Defense focused propulsion systems
42:57 – Golden Dome
46:11 – Propulsion milestones

• Show notes •

L3Harris’s website — https://www.l3harris.com/
Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear / 
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

• Payload: www.payloadspace.com
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Some environments are simply too harsh for traditional power sources. Solar panels fail in darkness, batteries die quickly, and diesel can’t reach. That’s where Zeno Power comes in. The company is pioneering nuclear batteries, compact systems that recycle radioactive waste into safe, reliable power for years at a time.

On this episode of Valley of Depth, I’m joined by Tyler Bernstein, co-founder and CEO of Zeno Power. We trace the journey from a Vanderbilt classroom project to a venture-backed company with $70M in private capital, $60M+ in NASA and DoD contracts, and a working nuclear prototype. Tyler shares how Zeno is positioning itself to power critical frontier operations: autonomous systems on the seabed, satellites in orbit, and landers on the Moon.

We also discuss:

• How a nuclear battery works and why Strontium-90 is Zeno’s starting fuel
• What it takes to safely turn nuclear waste into usable power
• The use cases that only nuclear batteries can unlock
• The business model: selling units vs. power-as-a-service vs. revenue sharing
• Navigating the unique regulatory path for radioisotope systems
• The risks of scaling a nuclear startup

…and much more.

This episode is brought to you by World Space Business Week, taking place September 15–19 in Paris. WSBW is one of the leading annual gatherings for the global space industry, bringing together executives, investors, government officials, and innovators from across commercial, defense, and satellite sectors. Learn more at wsbw.com.

• Chapters •

00:00 – Intro & WSBW Ad
01:26 – Tyler's background and how he came to co-found Zeno Power
04:13 – Is it normal for Vanderbilt to support their students' ideas and startups?
05:11 – Key mentors/validators of Tyler's business
07:06 – Zeno's products and $70M fundraising
09:12 – What is a nuclear battery and how does it work?
12:40 – How Zeno is carefully handling Strontium-90
14:39 – Future use cases for Strontium-90
15:53 – Advantages of nuclear battery
18:09 – Energy limits and stacking
19:30 – DoD and commercial customers
21:20 – Future business model
22:52 – How does Tyler think about pricing?
24:31 – How does regulation look for nuclear batteries?
27:00 – Will there be meaningful change coming out of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC)?
29:03 – Competition
31:25 – Turning nuclear waste into valuable power
34:12 – The future of nuclear waste disposal
37:47 – Biggest technical risks Zeno is combating
40:46 – Scaling the Stirling generator
41:49 – Zeno's testing infrastructure
43:08 – What keeps Tyler up at night
47:16 – Is Tyler optimistic about the future of energy in the US?
48:41 – Zeno's legacy in 20 years

• Show notes •

Zeno Power’s website — https://www.zenopower.com/
Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear / 
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

• Payload: www.payloadspace.com
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Continuous human presence in orbit has been a cornerstone of U.S. leadership in space for 25 years. But recent changes to NASA’s Commercial LEO Destinations (CLD) strategy have Pam Melroy—former NASA Deputy Administrator and shuttle commander—sounding the alarm. She warns that shifting to short-duration missions risks ceding leadership in LEO and undermining U.S. readiness for Mars, opening the door for China to take the mantle.

On this episode of Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Pam to talk about the state of NASA, the future of space stations, and why requirements, the often overlooked backbone of program management, will determine whether the U.S. stays ahead. We trace her career from test pilot to shuttle commander to senior leadership at NASA, DARPA, and the FAA, and unpack what it means to build an architecture that actually holds together from LEO to Mars.

We also discuss:

• Why continuous presence in LEO is a national security and leadership issue
• How the CLD Phase 2 shift could reshape investor and partner confidence
• The role of SpaceX and Starship in the Moon–Mars roadmap
• What it takes to write requirements that don’t doom a program from the start
• Pam’s vision of LEO, the Moon, and Mars in 2045

…and much more.

This episode is brought to you by World Space Business Week, taking place September 15–19 in Paris. WSBW is one of the leading annual gatherings for the global space industry, bringing together executives, investors, government officials, and innovators from across commercial, defense, and satellite sectors. Learn more at wsbw.com.

• Chapters •

00:00 – Intro
00:55 – WSBW Ad
01:21 – The key to Pam's success
03:32 – The state of NASA
05:01 – NASA in the next decade if we stay in our current trajectory
06:58 – Why is maintaining a human presence in LEO so important?
10:18 – The changing CLD Strategy
15:29 – Cost and impact of continuous vs 30-day missions
18:01 – NASA's requirements
23:50 – Disintegration of requirements
27:32 – Impact of the shift in CLD strategy
29:52 – Why go back to the Moon?
31:35 – Does the media understand the impact of landing on the Moon and Mars?
35:19 – Why do 30-day missions make sense
37:53 – Will China beat us back to the Moon?
41:41 – Cultural impact if China beats us to the Moon
45:17 – Does the Artemis program have the right architecture to succeed?
47:46 – Is NASA too dependent on SpaceX?
52:47 – How much should the U.S. be interested
56:02 – What did leading the space shuttle teach Pam about leadership?
57:54 – Inspiring the next generation of space exploration
58:46 – Prediction 20 years later
01:01:37 – Aliens?

• Show notes •

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear / 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/

Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/

Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
 

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

• Payload: www.payloadspace.com
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Logistics rarely makes headlines, but it wins or loses wars. Rune Technologies is betting that the future of contested sustainment won’t be built on warehouses and spreadsheets, but on software. The company recently raised a $24M Series A to accelerate that vision.

On this episode of Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Rune co-founder and CEO David Tuttle to talk about how the company is reimagining military logistics from the ground up. We trace Rune’s path from early prototypes to today’s TyrOS platform, discuss the cultural inertia inside the Pentagon, and unpack what it means to build software that commanders can trust under fire.

We also get into:

• The founding story of Rune and the early technical unlocks
• Building TyrOS and winning adoption with frontline commands
• What it takes to design software soldiers actually want to use
• Why logistics is becoming a strategic lever in great power competition
• The long-term vision for software-defined sustainment

…and much more.

This episode is brought to you by World Space Business Week, taking place September 15–19 in Paris. WSBW is one of the leading annual gatherings for the global space industry, bringing together executives, investors, government officials, and innovators from across commercial, defense, and satellite sectors. Learn more at wsbw.com.

• Chapters •

00:00 – Intro
01:02 – WSBW
01:27 – The story behind the name "Rune"
03:02 – What is Rune building?
04:34 – David's background and how he ended up founding Rune
08:10 – Why David and Peter Goldsborough had to make Rune exist
10:43 – Logistics in warfare
13:02 – How logistics are still being tracked today and why it’s outdated
17:05 – How TyrOS changes the logistics of the battlefield
21:56 – Operating in denied or degraded environments
24:54 – Who's using Rune's products right now and future scaling
29:20 – What has surprised David the most
31:08 – Pilot to program of record with the DoD
33:39 – Competitive landscape
36:01 – Will Rune stay in Defense?
37:30 – Will software like Rune's change military doctrine?
40:28 – Software making decisions in life-or-death scenarios
42:45 – Contrarian beliefs about defense tech
46:12 – Milestones to look out for at Rune
47:32 – What does the US military look like if Rune succeeds?
48:59 – What does David do for fun?
 

• Show notes •

Rune’s website — https://www.runetech.co/

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear / 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/

Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/

Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
 

• About us •

Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.

• Payload: www.payloadspace.com
• Ignition: www.ignition-news.com
• Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com