The Church Lobby

Karl Vaters talks with Brad Edwards about the shift that’s happened over the last decade or so in how people perceive institutions, especially the institutional church.

In this conversation they talk about how the rise of radical individualism has replaced once-trusted institutions, why a distrust in institutions is problematic, and why institutions—especially the church—still matter.

Brad is a church planter and pastor of The Table Church in Lafayette, CO. He’s also the author of, The Reason for Church: Why the Body of Christ Still Matters in an Age of Anxiety, Division, and Radical Individualism. This conversation also includes an overview of the reasons behind the loss of institutionalism, and especially five Church Defeaters:

• Church Defeater 1: Spiritual Pragmatism
• Church Defeater 2: The Sacred Self
• Church Defeater 3: Counterfeit Institutions
• Church Defeater 4: (Un)Civil religions
• Church Defeater 5: Virtuous Victimhood

(CONGRATULATIONS to Brad on his book being named Book of the Year by Christianity Today magazine!)

Links:

• The Reason for Church: Why the Body of Christ Still Matters in an Age of Anxiety, Division, and Radical Individualism
• Mere Orthodoxy

BONUS TALK

Our Role in the Grand Narrative of Scripture, with Brad Edwards

Karl Vaters talks with Brad Edwards about the importance of understanding the metanarrative of scripture as a foundational teaching for life and faith.

In particular, their conversation addresses two storytelling terms. First, Main Character Syndrome, which helps us understand and clarify the dangers of the  hyper-individualism of our current age. Second, the MacGuffin, a term coined by movie director Alfred Hitchcock that helps us see what our role in God’s story really is.

Links:

• The Reason for Church: Why the Body of Christ Still Matters in an Age of Anxiety, Division, and Radical Individualism

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Do you know how to spot if someone in your congregation has a gambling problem? Once it’s been spotted or confessed, do you know what to do?

Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Don Lichi about one of the fastest-growing addictions in the world, including:

• How is gambling defined?
• Why does it have such a strong grip on some people?
• Who is most likely to be addicted?
• How to get help

And more

Donald Lichi is vice president emeritus of Emerge Counseling Ministries, and author of the article, Is Gambling a Problem in the Church? You Bet! in Influence magazine.

Links:

• Is Gambling a Problem in the Church? You Bet! (article)
• Emerge Counseling Ministries
• Broken Windows of the Soul: A Pastor and Christian Psychologist Discuss Sexual Sins and the Prescription to Heal Them
• YouVersion Bible App

Bonus Chat

What to Do if You’re a Pastor with a Gambling Problem, with Donald Lichi

Pastors are not immune to the temptations of gambling and other addictions.

In this short conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Don Lichi about how to recognize those tendencies in yourself, and what to do if you’re trapped in it. They also talk about who you should/should not share these problems with, and how to engage in preventative measures.

Links:

• Is Gambling a Problem in the Church? You Bet! (article)
• Emerge Counseling Ministries
• Broken Windows of the Soul: A Pastor and Christian Psychologist Discuss Sexual Sins and the Prescription to Heal Them

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Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Jeff Forrey about grief, recovery, and how your church can help people, both inside and outside the congregation, deal with grief in healthy ways.

Grief has no rules, but there are healthy ways through it. And churches—small churches especially—are uniquely suited to provide real comfort for people in these difficult seasons of loss.

Karl and Jeff talk about some important principles, including:

• Why do we need help with grief?
• What kind of damage can we experience if we don’t deal with grief properly?
• What's a typical time frame for experiencing grief?
• What common mistakes are made in responding to grievers?

And more

Jeff Forrey oversees GriefShare, which can come alongside your church to equip you to be a resource for people in need.

Links:

• GriefShare
• Church Initiative
• DivorceCare Session 1 Preview
• GriefShare on Facebook
• GriefShare on Instagram
• GriefShare on YouTube
• CCEF.org
• Grieving Room, by Leanne Friesen

There is no bonus material for this episode.

In recent decades, parachurch organizations have carved out an important space in church life and ministry.

Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Angie Ward about why it’s important for ministers to take a closer look at what the church is, what parachurch organizations bring to the mix, and how we can move forward more missionally, even as the emphasis on institutions diminishes.

Dr. Ward is director of the Doctor of Ministry program and associate professor of leadership and ministry at Denver Seminary. She’s also the author of Beyond Church and Parachurch: From Competition to Missional Extension, which is the basis for this conversation.

Links:

• Beyond Church and Parachurch: From Competition to Missional Extension
• Beyond the Local Church: How Apostolic Movements Can Change the World, by Sam Metcalf
• The Church and the Parachurch: An Uneasy Marriage (A Critical Concern Book), by Jerry E. White
• Polycentric Leadership: Church as a Discipleship Movement, with Dan White Jr. (The Church Lobby, Ep 039)
• Uncharted Leadership: 20 Case Studies to Help Ministry Leaders Adapt to Uncertainty, by Angie Ward

BONUS TALK

The Five Advantages Of Parachurch Organizations, with Dr. Angie Ward

Every parachurch ministry needs to flow from and/or point to the local church. So why do we need parachurch ministries, at all?

In this bonus conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Angie Ward about the five benefits that churches can gain from partnering with parachurch ministries in productive ways:

1. Reach
2. Specialization
3. Lay involvement
4. Promoting unity
5. To call the local church to mission

Links:

Beyond Church and Parachurch: From Competition to Missional Extension

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If you’re a preaching pastor, you know what it means to feel the burden and the joy of preparing and preaching a sermon every Sunday. No matter how many years we’ve done it, we can always use a little more help to do it better.

Karl Vaters talks with Austin Carty about the craft of writing and delivering a weekly sermon, based on Austin’s latest book, Some of the Words Are Theirs: The Art of Writing and Living a Sermon. Austin is the pastor of Boulevard Baptist Church, a small congregation in Anderson, SC.

Karl and Austin talk about several of the aspects that go into sermon prep, including:

• The weekly call to biblical self-reflection
• How to decide what passage to preach from
• How to hook the listeners into the essence of the message
• Setting enough time to seriously prayerfully read, study and ponder the text
• Preaching from a posture of humble conviction rather than blind certainty
• And more

Links:

• Some of the Words Are Theirs: The Art of Writing and Living a Sermon
• The Pastor’s Bookshelf: Why Reading Matters for Ministry
• Why Reading Matters for Ministry, with Austin Carty (Ep 61)
• Vanderbilt Revised Common Lectionary

BONUS EPISODE (Subscribers Only)

Five Questions to Help You Preach a Well-balanced Sermon, with Austin Carty

One of the most important aspects in sermon prep and presentation today is making sure you know and acknowledge that there are points of view that are different from yours. But how do we recognize these points of view, while preaching the truth from God’s Word?

Austin Carty helps us negotiate this potential minefield in a short conversation with Karl Vaters, based on Austin’s new book, Some of the Words Are Theirs: The Art of Writing and Living a Sermon, by helping us ask these five questions:

1. Have I made sweeping generalizations?
2. Have I overargued my point?
3. Have I taken into account my own biases?
4. Have I considered other viable points of view?
5. Have I sufficiently justified my claims?

Links:

Some of the Words Are Theirs: The Art of Writing and Living a Sermon

What happens when all the church growth principles that were working in your church, suddenly stop working when you need them the most?

Karl Vaters interviews Paul Dazet about what happened to him, as the pastor of a fast-growing church shortly after he was diagnosed with cancer. Over 100 members left, saying things like “I just can’t handle being sad at church,” and “It used to be so energetic. Your illness changed the whole vibe.” Paul’s illness and the shaved head that went with it were seen as a show of weakness, need, and vulnerability that many people were uncomfortable seeing on a church platform.

But it’s not all bad news. Paul also walks us through the positive changes he has made in his approach to pastoring, including allowing space for lament, and how he now defines ministry success.

Links:

• Paul’s article on Substack
• Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pastorpauldazet/
• Instagram - @pauldazet
• Twitter / X - @pauldazet
• Bluesky - @pastorpaul.bsky.social‬
• Libby
• Hoopla

Bonus video 

The Five False Jesus’ of the “Successful” Church, with Paul Dazet

Paul Dazet found out that a numerically-growing church isn’t necessarily a healthy church. In this Bonus content, Karl Vaters talks with Paul about the 5 ways churches can be tempted to see Jesus that are not what Jesus intended for his church. They are:

1. “Jesus wants you rich” (Prosperity Jesus)
2. “Jesus votes red, white, and blue” (Nationalistic Jesus)
3. “Jesus is disappointed in you” (Judgmental Jesus)
4. “Jesus only loves people who look and believe like us” (Exclusive Jesus)
5. “Jesus is here to meet your every need” (Consumeristic Jesus)

Links:

• Paul’s article on Substack
• Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pastorpauldazet/
• Instagram - @pauldazet
• Twitter / X - @pauldazet
• Bluesky - @pastorpaul.bsky.social‬

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Karl Vaters interviews Leanne Friesen about grief. Specifically, how pastors, family members, and other caring people can help give people the room to process their grief when they go through a profound loss. Karl and Leanne also talk about how to process those feelings ourselves.

Leanne is a former pastor and is the author of Grieving Room: Making Space for All the Hard Things after Death and Loss. She talks with wisdom and compassion about the difficult, but important principles she learned as she went through the death of her sister more than a decade ago.

Links:

• Grieving Room: Making Space for All the Hard Things after Death and Loss
• Instagram: @Grieving.Room and @leanne_friesen
• LeanneFriesen.com
• Facebook: A Little Bit of Grieving Room

Bonus video

How to Give People Room When They’re Not “Getting Over” Their Grief, with Leanne Friesen

Karl Vaters interviews Leanne Friesen about one of the hardest aspects of grief – what happens when you can’t seem to “get over it” the way people seem to think you should?

As Leanne explains, when a loved one dies, the ones who have lost them need room for grief to be a part of their lives for the rest of their life. By recognizing this, they can deal with it in a much healthier way.

Links:

• Grieving Room: Making Space for All the Hard Things after Death and Loss

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Karl Vaters talks with Darrell Stetler about a new AI program Darrell has created, called Sermon Illustrator.

After a short introduction to what AI is, and some of the advantages and dangers of using it, they narrow in on this tool that helps pastors with a very specific task – finding illustrations (stories, metaphors, historical events, and so on) that can give your well-prepared sermon a story, a photo, a video, or another illustration that will help your content connect in a memorable way.

Podcast Links:

• Sermon Illustrator
• Get the AI Training Course ($27 offer for podcast listeners!)
• Ep 038: A Discipleship Strategy Small Churches Can Actually Follow
• Ep 084: Second was Trunk-or-Treat, with Darrell Stetler

Also from Darrell Stetler:

• NewStart Discipleship curriculum
• Free New believer Bible reading plan (1 Page PDF)
• Free audiobook on discipling your children
• Free NewStart Discipleship Journal: A 54-page discipleship Bible study for new Christians.
• Free one-hour discipleship training workshop
• Free 23 Page Planning Guide with Trunk or Treat Ideas for Churches
• The Gospel Trunk or Treat Planning System

Social media:

• facebook.com/darrellstetler2
• facebook.com/newstartdiscipleship
• youtube.com/@newstartdiscipleship
• twitter.com/newstartdisc

Bonus Content

Some Strengths and Dangers of Using AI for Sermon Prep, with Darrell Stetler

Karl Vaters interviews Darrell Stetler about what AI is good for, and some of the dangers AI poses, specifically when it comes to prepping Sunday sermons.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Karl Vaters talks with Luke Simmons, the pastor of Ironwood Church in Mesa, AZ. Recently, Luke and his church elders decided to pursue a very ambitious goal with the aim of helping their large, growing congregation feel smaller and more connected.

As a big-church pastor, Luke is not a typical Church Lobby guest, but he and Karl follow each other on X (formerly Twitter) and when Luke posted about this plan it inspired a lot of questions and curiosity. The plan is for the members of their elder team to have one-on-one meetings with 1,000 church members over coffee or a meal this coming year.

If those numbers make you feel like this isn’t for you, give it a chance. Luke has a heart for people, and he’s interested in how to set numerical goals that help us reach non-numerical objectives of discipleship, fellowship, and service.

Links:

• Luke’s original X post about elder meeting goals
• Luke’s original X post about doing one-on-one meetings
• Faithful and Fruitful
• Tim Keller on Leadership and Church Size Dynamics
• Darrell Stetler’s Sermon Illustrator
• Follow Luke on X
• Ironwood Church

Bonus video

How To Conduct An Annual Leadership Meeting, with Luke Simmons

Karl Vaters talks with Luke Simmons about some of the steps he follows to gain as much as possible from an annual leadership meeting with his church elders. Points include:

• Get it on the calendar as soon as possible
• Make it an overnighter
• Budget for it
• Slow down in a relaxed environment
• Set the tone with idea prompts in writing
• Write a summary afterward
• And more

Links:

• How to Grow Your Small Business: A 6-Step Plan to Help Your Business Take Off (Donald Miller)
• Luke’s original X post about elder meeting goals
• Luke’s original X post about doing one-on-one meetings
• https://faithfulandfruitful.com/elders-meeting/

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Over the last few months, several of our podcasts have been about bivo/covocationality, side hustles for pastors, and so on. And more are on the way.

Why? Because the future of the church is bivocational. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks to Andrew Hamilton about the content from his book, The Future is Bivocational: Shaping Christian Leaders for a Post-Christian World, including the theological foundation for bivocational ministry, how work isn’t a sinful result of the fall, but an element of God’s creative design for us, and the value of covocational ministry for the pastor, the church, and the community.

The second half of the conversation includes several very practical steps for any pastor who’s considering bivocationality, including:

• Having upfront conversations with your church leaders
• Deciding which tasks are essential for you to do
• Knowing which tasks others can be trained for and trusted with
• The non-optional tasks of leadership and communication
• Why Andrew tries to function at 70 percent of his ministry capacity

And more

Links:

• Backyard Missionary
• The Future is Bivocational: Shaping Christian Leaders for a Post-Christian World
• The Patient Ferment of the Early Church: The Improbable Rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire

Bonus video

Eight Options for Finding Bivocational Work, with Andrew Hamilton

Are you considering becoming a bivocational pastor? Karl Vaters talks to Andrew Hamilton about some practical work options that mesh well with a pastoral schedule and skillset, from the content from his book, The Future is Bivocational: Shaping Christian Leaders for a Post-Christian World, including:

1. Project/Contract Work
2. Laboring
3. Start a Small Business
4. The Church Starts a Business
5. Retrain/Upskill/Study
6. Low Demand Work
7. Volunteer
8. Consulting

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