The Coach's Journey - build a coaching business with integrity

Mike Toller works as a professional coach and psychodynamic psychotherapist, supporting individuals privately and in organisations, and training people to bring coaching skills and mindsets into their personal and professional lives.

That makes him the perfect person to answer one of the big questions that coaches ask and get asked: what is the difference between coaching on the one hand, and counselling and psychotherapy on the other?

In this new format, an excerpt from Episode #32, you can hear Mike and Robbie exploring that big question.

As Robbie says in the introduction to this episode, the clarity of what Mike talks about here has changed how Robbie thinks and talks about the difference between coaching and psychotherapy (and counselling). It just might do that for you, too.

Listen back to Episode #32 in full here, for Mike’s story and many amazing ideas and tips for you and your coaching business: https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-32-mike-toller.

For more information about Mike, visit https://www.clarenormancoachingassociates.com.

For more information about this episode’s host, Robbie Swale, visit https://www.michaeltollercoaching.co.uk/

Read more about The Coach's Journey at www.thecoachsjourney.com.

Music by My Good Man William: listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4KmeQUcTbeE31uFynHQLQg

To support the Coach's Journey, visit www.patreon.com/thecoachsjourney and to join the Coach's Journey Community visit www.thecoachsjourney.com/community.

BIOGRAPHY FROM MIKE

Mike was born in Germany and moved to the UK when he was six years old. He lived in Oxfordshire, Leeds and Norfolk with his parents and three brothers. When he was 19, he studied Linguistics in Cambridge, and then moved to London.

Mike first worked for a graduate recruitment startup, then followed a passion for writing and made a leap to publishing, editing travel guides. In his spare time, he put on clubnights for fun and later took the plunge and left his job as an editor to turn the nights into a successful events company.

Realising he wanted his work to be more fulfilling and align directly with his values and wider goals, Mike began a process of self-reflection and worked with some amazing mentors, who inspired him to take his career into his own hands and choose a new direction. He made a plan for change, and in 2010 began training as a psychotherapist.

Along the way, he decided to develop a portfolio career and trained as a coach in 2014. He also co-founded The Coaching School, a centre of excellence for coaching committed to training and supporting the next generation of outstanding coaches.

Mike now works as a professional coach and psychodynamic psychotherapist, supporting individuals privately and in organisations, and training people to bring coaching skills and mindsets into their personal and professional lives.

Myles Downey has been practising coaching for more than 40 years. His book, Effective Modern Coaching, has sold more than 330,000 copies and is a recommended read on many coaching training courses.

In this episode, Myles returns for his second appearance on The Coach’s Journey Podcast, with the questions asked by Robbie and Neil – doubling the hosts in order to double the insight!

We dive deep into the nuances of coaching, exploring themes of self-actualisation, performance, and the delicate balance between directive and non-directive coaching, leveraging Myles’ experience coaching senior executives and leadership teams across the globe.

This episode coincides with the release of a new edition of Effective Modern Coaching, which has enabled him to fine-tune everything he has learned about effective coaching over the last 40 years, including through founding The School of Coaching in 1996, the first institution in Europe to focus solely on the development of coaching skills for coaches, managers and leaders.

The episode is a treasure trove of insights for new and experienced coaches alike. Myles' wisdom provides a deep dive into the art and science of coaching. Whether you're a seasoned coach or just starting your journey, this episode offers valuable perspectives on how to elevate your practice and truly make a difference in your clients' lives.

In particular, we talk about:

Pushing back against the culture contagion of compliance: how we get engineered in society and lose the capacity to trust ourselves.

Performance coaching and self-actualisation: how to align personal expression with professional performance.

Tim Gallwey’s Inner Game and its influence on Myles and Neil, including diving into Gallwey’s Self One and Self Two.

Construing, constructs and creating our maps of reality (and how non-directive coaching makes all the difference).

‘Transcend and include’ as an underpinning principle in our development as coaches and that of our clients.

Proposing: the delicate balance required to offer suggestions to our clients without imposing them.

Plus, we talk about whether the shine has come off coaching and other changes Myles has noticed over his decades in the industry, and Neil invites Myles to get into the business-building parts of his work: how he structures engagements, how his sales process looks and more...

To listen to Myles’ first appearance on The Coach’s Journey Podcast, visit https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-31-myles-downey

For more information about Myles, visit www.mylesdowney.com or find him on LinkedIn at www.linkedin.com/in/mylesdowney

For more information about Robbie Swale, visit www.robbieswale.com and for more information about Neil Mackinnon, visit www.neilmackinnon.net.

Read more about The Coach's Journey at www.thecoachsjourney.com.

Music by My Good Man William: listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4KmeQUcTbeE31uFynHQLQg

To support the Coach's Journey, visit www.patreon.com/thecoachsjourney and to join the Coach's Journey Community visit www.thecoachsjourney.com/community.

Things and people we mentioned (that you might be interested in):

Myles' previous appearance on The Coach's Journey Podcast: https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-31-myles-downey

Myles on The Edge of Coaching Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0EWTGZa8XnMF1n13Q76wSr?si=YF9zAEILScCunFai85RIaQ

The Inner Game of Tennis by Timothy Gallwey: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inner-Game-Tennis-ultimate-performance/dp/1447288505/

The Inner Game of Music by Timothy Gallwey: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inner-Game-Music-Timothy-Gallwey/dp/1447291727

The new edition of Effective Modern Coaching: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Effective-Modern-Coaching-principles-successful/dp/191595116X/

David Clutterbuck: https://clutterbuck-cmi.com/

Aristotle Onassis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle_Onassis

Enabling Genius by Myles Downey: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enabling-Genius-Myles-Downey/dp/1910649538

Academy of Executive Coaching: https://www.aoec.com/

Mihaily Csikszentmihaly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihaly_Csikszentmihalyi

Roberto Assagioli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Assagioli

The Craftsman by Richard Sennett: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Craftsman-Richard-Sennett/dp/0141022094

Jennifer Garvey Berger on The Coach's Journey Podcast: https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-42-jennifer-garvey-berger-the-answer-to-either-or-is-both

The Prosperous Coach book: https://richlitvin.com/book/

BIOGRAPHY FROM MYLES

Myles Downey is one of the leading executive coaches in Europe, with global experience (Europe, North and South America, Asia-Pacific, UAE). He has worked across the C-suite in many prestigious organisations over the last 30 years, in a wide variety of industries, including Banking and Financial Services, Manufacturing, Oil and Gas, Professional Services, Tech and the Public Sector.

Myles is a recognized authority on Performance, Coaching and Leadership and the author of three classics in the coaching and performance arena: ‘Effective Modern Coaching’, ‘Effective Coaching’ (between them 300,00+ books sold); ‘Enabling Genius – a mindset for success in the 21st Century’; ‘The Enabling Manager - how to get the best out of your team’ published in July 2022.

Myles has deployed his performance coaching programs with the Senior Coaches of the England Rugby Team and with the New Zealand Elite Rugby Coaches.

Myles has been a speaker at many leadership conferences, including the BBC’s Conference for its top 400 senior executives, the McKinsey Global Partners Conference in Singapore and the ICF Global Conference in Malmo, to name a few. After 33 years living in London, Myles now lives in Norfolk, England. He was born in Dublin, Ireland in 1959. Myles plays for Norfolk Veterans Tennis team and competes occasionally on the ITF Masters Tour.

Clare Norman is a master certified coach with the International Coaching Federation, whose latest book, The Transformational Coach, maps out a journey to coaching mastery that begins with unlearning the old beliefs and mindsets that are not serving you or your clients, in order to reset and replace them with a new set of thought patterns.

In this episode of The Coach’s Journey Podcast, Clare shares some brutally honest financial advice for coaches and talks through the developments in contracting, process and values that helped her go from coaching internally in a large corporation to building and running her own business as a coach, coach trainer and supervisor.

Clare also flies the flag for mentor coaching, telling host Neil Mackinnon why she believes it is the best way for a coach to “sharpen their edge”, and she generously shares wisdom on how new coaches can successfully position themselves in a fast-changing industry.

In this episode, Clare and Neil also talk about:

Getting your name ‘out there’ as an independent coach

Why coaching bodies matter and what they can do for us

How to lead an ethically sound, mentally healthy coaching practice

The power of experiencing different organisational cultures and their values

Achieving sustained change through shifting mindsets rather thanskillsets

Clare also shares examples of the unhelpful mindsets we, as coaches, need to unlearn in order to be of service to our clients and ourselves (there are a total of 83 of these mindsets listed in her book!).

For links to many of the things mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-68-clare-norman-glimmers-of-hope-structuring-a-coaching-business-and-unlearning-mindsets-on-the-journey-to-coaching-mastery

Is the mass-marketisation of coaching de-valuing the practice? Or does widening access to coaching help everyone?

Tori Jeffers is a Professional Certified Coach who has amassed over 1,000 hours of experience in just three years. In this episode of The Coach’s Journey Podcast she explores the shifts in the coaching landscape that are transforming the industry.

After spending more than a decade pursuing her passion for conservation, which took her to Madagascar and the Amazon to work with sea turtles, sharks and monkeys, Tori found herself in a battle with burnout.

In conversation with Ruth, Tori describes how the roots of her coaching career reach all the way back to her first job in conservation and a manager who shared approaches and tools that made a lasting impact.

Tori discusses her current coaching work with BetterUp, reflecting on the experience of coaching through an organisation rather than establishing a private practice, and also explains how she co-founded and organisation that supports emerging environmental leaders.

 In this episode, Tori and Ruth also talk about:

Contracting and how it is the answer to everything

Questioning the urge to help others, and asking what we might be denying them

Our ‘beetle shells’ – the defences we put up in order to get through challenging times

The balance between empathy and sanity

The importance – and difficulty – of building a network

Giving yourself permission not to be busy

Tori also shares the highly impactful books she wishes she had read earlier in her coaching career, and speaks about how she intends to grow her client base while continuing to inspire improvements in environmental leadership.

For links to many of the things mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-67-tori-jeffers-who-wins-and-who-loses-as-coaching-goes-mainstream

Would you like to have more fun while still working in your zone of genius? Are you concerned you might need to shake things up to avoid becoming a boring coach?

Ruth Saville’s advice to coaches everywhere – including herself – is: misbehave more. Listen to your inner rebel. Dance in the moment and create systems that work for you.

Since the COVID-19 pandemic forced Ruth to step back from her successful performing arts franchise and examine the toll her work was taking on her life, she has followed her inner seeker into the world of personal development and coaching.

In this episode of The Coach’s Journey Podcast, Ruth takes Robbie back to the small towns in the north of England where they both grew up, retracing the steps of a life and career that began with a focus on helping people to express themselves through dance, theatre and music.

Ruth, who is one of the new hosts of this podcast as well as her own show, Women of a Certain Age, is now focusing on working with emerging leaders in all fields, having arrived in her zone of genius, taken her own approach to mastery, and become anything other than boring.

 In this episode, Ruth and Robbie also talk about:

Big hairy audacious goals (BHAGs)

Cults, pyramid schemes and other perilous industry pitfalls

How to accept who you are, in order to know what you can do

Ways to market yourself without exploiting others

Taking a step back to spot the signs of burnout

Ruth also grapples with the models and methodologies that can fuel or frustrate new coaches and unpacks problems that have plagued certain sections of the coaching industry, making important distinctions about the ways in which different practitioners work.

For more information about Ruth, visit https://www.daretorise.co.uk/ .

For more information about this episode’s host, Robbie Swale, visit https://www.robbieswale.com/.

Read more about The Coach's Journey at www.thecoachsjourney.com.

Music by My Good Man William: listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4KmeQUcTbeE31uFynHQLQg

To support the Coach's Journey, visit www.patreon.com/thecoachsjourney and to join the Coach's Journey Community visit www.thecoachsjourney.com/community.

Things and people we mentioned (that you might be interested in):

- You Will Be Found from Dear Evan Hansen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq9FlLVh6yg

- Gretchen Rubin and the Four Tendencies: https://courses.gretchenrubin.com/4tc/ and her book Better Than Before

- Gallup coaching https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/253958/become-coach.aspx

- GROW model https://www.performanceconsultants.com/grow-model

- Claire Pedrick and Lucia Baldelli on The Coach’s Journey https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-55-claire-pedrick-and-lucia-baldelli-the-human-behind-the-coach

- Barefoot Coaching https://barefootcoaching.co.uk/

- The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-big-leap-gay-hendricks?variant=32205677625378

- Rich Litvin https://richlitvin.com/

- Animas https://www.animascoaching.com/

Marianne Craig on The Coach’s Journey Podcast - https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-10-marianne-craig-founding-firework-question-everything-where-were-coaches-when-banks-went-down

- Co-active Training Institute https://coactive.com/

- Academy of Executive Coaching https://www.aoec.com/

- Kim Morgan on The Coach’s Journey Podcast https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-25-kim-morgan

- Brene Brown on The Tim Ferriss Show: https://tim.blog/2015/08/28/brene-brown-on-vulnerability-and-home-run-ted-talks/

- Mel Robbins: https://www.melrobbins.com/

- Rachel Hollis: https://msrachelhollis.com/

- Ruth's podcast, Women of a Certain Age: https://www.daretorise.co.uk/podcast

- Ruth's blog on perimenopause: https://www.daretorise.co.uk/blog/an-enforced-perimeno-pause

- The Lighthouse scandal: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65175712

- Ruth's instagram post and the picture of her aged 20: https://www.instagram.com/p/Ct1HvaYIQfd/

BIOGRAPHY FROM RUTH

Ruth is a leadership and business coach who specialises in working with emerging leaders. With 20+ years experience of being self employed she is also an entrepreneur, having grown and scaled a successful franchise business. After 16 years Ruth decided to sell this business to allow her to work full time as a coach.

With an extensive background in arts education and a self confessed personal development fanatic, she brings all this experience together to offer her clients transformational coaching. Her practice is made up of an eclectic mix of private clients, organisational and corporate work as well as supervision and coach skills training. Recently Ruth has also been working with new coaches, focusing on developing both themselves and their businesses. 

She is comfortable working in a high challenge, high trust relationship and has been described as a down to earth Northerner, a title she is more than happy with! She brings a sense of humour and a light touch to her work, which she sees as a valuable tool in the coaching relationship. Ruth firmly believes that the idea of play, fun and creativity can create an expansive and transformational coaching environment. 

A quarter-life crisis is a period of intense soul searching that arrives when we are first confronted with the question of what to do with our lives.

That’s according to Chloë Garland, the founder of QuarterLife, a company that works with individuals and organisations to help people in their 20s and 30s not just survive, but thrive.

In this episode of The Coach’s Journey Podcast, Chloë sheds light on the generational shifts that have prolonged adolescence, and how many of us encounter our first truly meaningful life choices in our mid or late 20s.

Chloë tells host Alex Whitton how studying philosophy encouraged her to ponder life’s big questions, and how in her first coaching session – at age 22 – she was asked questions she had never considered before.

That session left Chloë feeling ignited, and she describes the unusual experience of being called into coaching at a young age, knowing she had a gift for conversations but perhaps unaware of the profound impact she would have on the lives of young people she would meet along the way.

In this episode, Chloë and Alex also talk about:

• Living emergently, holding goals lightly, and embracing opportunities as they arise


• The jam donut principle of purpose and presence


• The power of metaphors and fables to simplify complex ideas


• Psychodemographics, and how to find your niche


• The value of shared experience in coaching, and the importance of owning your story


Chloë also shares some hugely valuable lessons on growing a coaching business, reflecting on investments, outsourcing, and how the fear of success can be as much of a hindrance as the fear of failure.

For links to many of the things mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-65-chloe-garland-the-jam-donut-principle-quarter-life-crises-and-the-philosophy-of-coaching

The question of what makes a life well-lived is at the heart of Alex Whitton’s work, both as a coach and as the CEO of a charity that supports young people to realise their potential.

In this episode of the Coach’s Journey Podcast, Alex tells Robbie about the story of his career so far, from studying at Oxford University, to his volunteer work with young people, to running a social enterprise and then deciding to become a coach.

He describes how he emerged from a mindset of scarcity into one of abundance and opportunity as he came to recognise his strengths as a coach, which were cultivated through his work with Universify and the MOE Foundation.

Alex shares insights into how he has built his coaching business alongside his work with Universify, and also how he is fulfilling his childhood ambition of becoming an author.

He speaks about the fundamental importance of authenticity, vulnerability and creativity – principles that underpin his writing practice as well as his work as a coach and CEO.

In this episode, Alex and Robbie also talk about:

- Stories, memories and listening for insight

- How coaching skills can empower young people throughout their lives

- The power of someone taking your dreams seriously

- Taking a bigger-picture view, in order to see your own abundance

- A highly effective way to invite people to be coached and enhance your agency as a coach

Alex also offers a refreshing approach to framing conversations with prospective clients, capturing the spirit of co-creation in a way that has universal appeal.

For links to many of the things mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-64-alex-whitton-balancing-the-being-and-the-doing

Jo Wright admits she had to get her dad’s permission before deciding on No More Sh*t Managers: Seven Steps to a Coaching Cultureas the title of her book.

Thankfully he agreed and the book has made Jo a bestselling Amazon UK author as her message about the power of a coaching culture spreads to people and organisations around the world.

In this episode of The Coach’s Journey Podcast, Jo tells host Alex Swallow about the foundational experiences in early life that instilled her with a belief in the positive change that can happen when people have better conversations.

She describes the life-changing conversations that have shaped her career, from managing a small team and noticing her flair for mentoring, to co-founding a coaching business and magazine that helped propel the industry forward by creating digital coaching solutions.

Jo’s book is a love letter to humanity, and what shines through in this episode is her desire to help as many people as possible, by making sure that coaching – and the life-changing experiences it offers – is for everybody.

Having embedded coaching cultures in some of the world’s biggest organisations, she is succeeding in her aim quite spectacularly.

In this episode, Jo and Alex also talk about:

The human development that takes place when training as a coach

How far we can go when we’re willing to be vulnerable

The fundamental importance of maintaining hope that things can be better

The value we invest in ourselves and how our clients experience our personal growth and self-development

Jo also shares some invaluable advice about getting your work out into the world, generously opening up about the steps she took to reach her audience.

For links to many of the things mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-63-jo-wright-we-can-make-things-better-but-we-have-to-do-it-together

When Alex Swallow sees people doing great work, he experiences an almost evangelical urge to help bring others into connection with that work.

His ability to do just that, and to boldly spread the reach of ideas, initiatives and projects worth championing, led him to become The Influence Expert – a coach and thought leader who helps individuals, companies and institutions to grow and deepen their impact on the world.

Alex is also one of the new hosts of The Coach’s Journey Podcast, and this episode is a chance to hear about the journey he has been on, from being the first in his family to go to university, to becoming the chief executive of a national charity, and to writing his first book, How To Become an Influencer.

The conversation between Alex and Robbie explores influence, authenticity, and the philosophies and principles that shape our view of the world and the work we do in it.

Alex shares insights into how he has used social media to great effect in his career, and how he has carefully aligned himself with communities of people who are fuelling the next steps of his career as a coach, influencer and writer.

In this episode, Alex and Robbie also talk about:

The ‘golden threads’ in our experiences that lead us into the future

How humans get trapped by simple stories, and how that can limit our view of the world

The importance of agency, and how we can give it back to our clients

Why, how and when you might be a better coach than even the most experienced practitioners in the industry

Feedback, and how communities can enrich our practice

Alex also speaks about the new book he is collaborating on, which is tantalisingly focused on a particular method for getting clients.

For links to many of the things mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-62-alex-swallow-life-is-better-when-we-choose

This episode is sponsored by Heyday: https://heyday.xyz/

New developments in artificial intelligence make the news headlines so often that many people – including coaches and their clients – are wondering just how AI advances will affect their jobs, their careers and their lives.

In this sponsored episode of The Coach’s Journey Podcast, AI expert Samiur Rahman offers a rare insight into the way machine learning is shaping the future of coaching by fuelling the creation of tools that can save coaches time and improve their productivity.

Samiur is the co-founder of Heyday, an AI thought partner that helps coaches and other knowledge workers by generating automatic session notes, detecting patterns in client conversations, and aggregating information about clients.

In conversation with Robbie, Samiur opens up about the impact coaching has had on his journey through a career in which he has founded two start-ups and worked in others, and how he sought out the coaches who could bring out the very best in him.

He also describes the development process that led to Heyday’s creation, which involved careful consultation with coaches and produced revelations about the way practitioners work and their most pressing needs.

In this episode, Samiur and Robbie also talk about:

The power of coaching for new managers and founders alike

How the coaching we need changes at different stages of our careers

The ways AI and machine learning are likely to disrupt the world of work and the coaching industry (and the ways they aren’t)

What strange and admirable qualities coacheshave, from the perspective of someone who has studied them as customers.

Samiur also describes how Heyday, which offers a free two-week trial to all new sign-ups, has changed the lives and work of coaches who use it, and the impact upon their clients.

For links to many of the things mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://www.thecoachsjourney.com/podcast/episode-61-samiur-rahman-ai-heyday-and-the-quest-to-capture-meaningful-moments