The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 11 - Episode 178

Guests: Chief Ryan Newell, Southborough Police Department, Massachusetts, and Chief Brian Griffin, Northborough Police Department, Massachusetts

What does it take to lead a small police department effectively? How do new chiefs navigate budgets, build trust, develop future leaders, and create an environment where officers feel valued and supported?

In this episode of The CopDoc Podcast, Dr. Steve Morreale welcomes two neighboring Massachusetts police chiefs, Ryan Newell of Southborough and Brian Griffin of Northborough, for a candid conversation about the realities of police leadership in smaller communities.

Both chiefs share their experiences transitioning into executive leadership, learning the complexities of municipal government, and recognizing that decisions made in the chief's office have consequences throughout the organization. Their discussion highlights the importance of collaboration, active listening, empathy, accountability, and learning from the people who do the work every day.

In This Episode

• The transition to chief: What Ryan and Brian learned after stepping into leadership and what they wish they had known beforehand.
• Understanding municipal government: Why chiefs need to understand town budgets, competing priorities, and the financial realities facing their communities.
• Leading through questions: How asking for input, listening carefully, and involving supervisors can strengthen decision-making and organizational ownership.
• Supporting sergeants: Why frontline supervisors are essential to morale, communication, and effective police operations.
• Corrective action over punitive discipline: How respectful conversations, clear expectations, and coaching can help employees learn and improve.
• Bridging generational differences: How leaders can adapt their supervisory approaches while respecting the experience and institutional knowledge of veteran officers.
• Developing future leaders: Why succession planning, mentoring, special assignments, and professional development matter, especially in smaller departments with limited promotion opportunities.
• Building a culture of wellness: How employee wellness initiatives, supportive leadership, and attention to officers' personal lives can strengthen the organization.
• Managing public criticism: How chiefs can sustain morale and reinforce the value of policing amid negative publicity and public scrutiny.
• Co-response and mental health: The value of sharing a mental health clinician across neighboring departments and improving responses to behavioral health calls.

Leadership Takeaways

Ryan and Brian reinforce an important principle: leadership is not about having all the answers. It is about creating an environment where people can speak openly, contribute to decisions, and understand the reasoning behind them.

They discuss the value of learning from former chiefs, building trusted relationships with fellow chiefs, and recognizing that command authority does not require a command-and-control approach to every interaction.

Their experiences also demonstrate that small, personal gestures matter. Remembering birthdays, recognizing family milestones, listening to employees, and making officers feel valued can help build a supportive organizational culture.

For chiefs and aspiring leaders, the message is clear: invest in your people, prepare the next generation, listen before deciding, and recognize that the badge carries the same responsibility regardless of the size of the department.

About the Guests

Chief Ryan Newell leads the Southborough Police Department in Massachusetts. With more than 28 years in policing, his career includes service with the Nantucket Police Department and extensive experience in Southborough. He discusses the importance of thoughtful decision-making, supporting frontline supervisors, officer wellness, and preparing employees for future leadership.

Chief Brian Griffin leads the Northborough Police Department in Massachusetts. A Northborough native, he shares insights from his career in patrol and detective work and reflects on the influence of former chiefs, the value of peer relationships, and the responsibility of building a professional and supportive department.

Join the Conversation

What can police leaders do to create an environment where employees feel heard, supported, and invested in the organization's success? How can smaller departments prepare the next generation of leaders while maintaining morale and serving their communities effectively?

Listen, reflect, and consider how these lessons apply to your own leadership practice.

Learn more about the podcast at https://copdocpodcast.com.

Hosted by Dr. Steve Morreale, The CopDoc Podcast explores police leadership, organizational culture, and innovative ideas through conversations with leaders in policing, communities, academia, and government.

Stay safe, and keep leading.

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Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 11 - Episode 177

Leadership Culture Under Pressure with Chief Brandon Gurley

Dr. Steve Morreale talks with Chief Brandon Gurley of Brookhaven Police Department about the career path that shaped his leadership, from dispatcher and detention officer to chief of a fast-growing agency near Atlanta. The conversation centers on how early frontline experience, intentional culture-building, and curiosity-driven leadership can improve policing outcomes.Gurley also shares how Brookhaven Police Department was built from the ground up, how he approaches command staff meetings, and why he believes policing often promotes technical experts instead of true people leaders.

Key topics

• In this episode, Chief Brandon Gurley shares how starting as a 911 call taker and detention officer gave him an early understanding of stress, communication, and de-escalation.
• He explains his move from Paulding County Sheriff’s Office to Sandy Springs, then into the startup of Brookhaven Police Department when the city incorporated in 2012.
• Gurley describes the challenge of helping build a brand-new agency, including hiring 54 sworn officers from 26 different metro-area agencies.
• He discusses why public information work, recruiting, and background investigations became important parts of his development as a future chief.
• He draws a clear distinction between police administration and police leadership, arguing that leadership requires vision, accountability, and the willingness to do the work alongside others.
• Gurley says technical competence alone is not enough for promotion, and that many leadership failures happen when agencies elevate the best performer instead of the best people leader.
• He explains how Brookhaven uses committees, strategic planning, and weekly command staff meetings to turn ideas into actionable outcomes.
• He talks about leading through questions, staying curious, and helping others solve their own problems instead of constantly fixing them himself.
• Gurley reflects on Brookhaven’s community engagement in a large Hispanic population area, including Officer Nino’s outreach work and the department’s Spanish-speaking Citizens Police Academy.
• He shares why culture is harder to change than policy, and why training only matters if the organization’s culture can support what people learn.

Notable quotes

“Culture by design.”

“Curiosity is a growing skill set.”

“A great police leader is someone who listens to understand before they listen to respond.”

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If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 11 - Episode 176

Dr. Doreen Jokerst on culture, leadership, and modern policing in Overland Park

Dr. Doreen Jokerst, chief of police in Overland Park, Kansas, joins Steve Morreale for a conversation about leadership, culture, technology, and what it means to build trust inside a police organization and with the community. She shares how her path through city policing, university policing, and doctoral study shaped a leadership style rooted in curiosity, collaboration, and accountability.We discuss how she uses listening sessions, transparent communication, and thoughtful technology governance to strengthen legitimacy, support officers, and improve service. This episode is especially relevant for leaders thinking about culture change, talent development, and the future of policing.

Key topics

• Dr. Doreen Jokerst shares how Overland Park Police Department serves a city of about 207,000 residents, with 270 authorized police officers and 85 professional staff
• She traces her path into policing back to age 8, when a visit to Alcatraz helped spark a lifelong interest in helping people
• She explains the value of university policing at CU Boulder, where she learned to work across different perspectives and saw public safety through a broader lens
• She describes culture as something you can feel, comparing it to a sailboat in the wind and emphasizing that leaders must listen before trying to change anything
• She says insatiable curiosity breeds innovation, and that asking why systems exist is essential to understanding an organization without disrupting what already works
• She details her listening-session approach, including writing down names, tracking themes, following up personally, and making sure people see action after they speak
• She emphasizes explaining the why, whether in organizational decisions or even traffic stops, because legitimacy grows when people understand the reason behind an action
• She discusses thoughtful technology adoption, including DFR, real-time information centers, data dashboards, and ALPR, with transparency and governance controls
• She explains why she values psychologically safe spaces, where staff at every level can challenge ideas and contribute to better decisions
• She makes the case for mentorship and continuity, saying leaders should develop successors so agencies do not feel like they are starting over every time leadership changes
• She connects culture and service, saying that if leaders treat people poorly inside the department, that behavior will show up in community interactions too
• She highlights the importance of representation and 30 by 30, noting that women remain underrepresented in policing and that hiring should reflect both diversity of thought and community identity
• She argues that success metrics must evolve, moving beyond arrests and citations toward data that better reflects harm reduction, trust, engagement, and problem-solving
• She describes her management style as coaching and stewardship, with clear expectations, regular check-ins, and delegation that still leaves people feeling supported
• She closes with optimism about the future of policing, saying the profession is honorable and that she wants to keep showing up like it is her first day

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Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 10 - Episode 175 

GUEST: Chris Hsiung, Undersheriff, San Mateo County Sheriff's Office, and Executive Director, The Curve

EPISODE SUMMARY:

Rank does not make a leader. That is the premise Chris Hsiung and I worked through in this conversation, and it shapes everything else we talked about.

Chris has spent more than 30 years in policing, most of it with the Mountain View Police Department, where he rose from patrol officer to chief. He now serves as Undersheriff with the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office and leads The Curve, a nonprofit he co-founded with Simon Sinek to help police leaders build cultures grounded in trust and purpose. We talked about what it actually takes to change a department's culture, and why that work starts with what leaders do, not what they say.

Chris put it simply: culture equals values plus behavior. A lot of agencies have values painted on the wall and printed on the cruiser. Few agencies have leaders whose daily behavior matches those words. We got into what happens when that gap goes unaddressed, why leaders need people who will tell them the truth instead of what they want to hear, and how Chris learned to lead by taking off the stars and getting into the jail, onto the ride-along, into the training room, alongside the people he was asking to trust him.

This one is for chiefs, sheriffs, sergeants, and anyone tired of waiting for a promotion before they start leading.

KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED:

• Why rank grants authority but not leadership, and the difference between the two
• Culture by design versus culture by default, and what happens when leaders leave culture to chance
• How to build change from the middle of an organization by working with early adopters instead of trying to convince everyone at once
• Why "everything is green" reporting should worry a leader more than it comforts one
• What it means to get out of the office: riding along, training with your people, learning the job from the ground up
• How Chris's own mistakes and uncertainty as a young leader shaped the leader he became
• Why a healthy culture is one of the strongest recruitment and retention tools an agency has

INSIGHTS FROM THE CONVERSATION:

Chris made a case that leadership starts long before anyone pins on a badge or a stripe. Waiting for the title is the wrong strategy. He also pushed back on the idea that a leader can understand an organization from behind a desk. His answer to reading an agency's real condition was blunt: go find out for yourself, in person, without the rank showing.

On trust, Chris was direct about the danger of an organization where nobody tells the boss bad news. If every report comes back green, that is not evidence things are fine. It is often evidence people are afraid to say otherwise, and a leader steering by false readings will not see the iceberg coming.

He closed with a simple answer to a hard question: what should policing never stop doing? Caring. Everything else in this conversation, the culture work, the trust building, the willingness to admit mistakes, comes back to that one word.

KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR LISTENERS:

1. Audit the gap between your agency's stated values and your own daily behavior. That gap is your culture, whether you intended it or not.
2. Do not try to convince the whole organization at once. Find your early adopters and let their results do the persuading.
3. If everyone tells you things are fine, ask why. Build channels where people can safely tell you when they are not.
4. Spend time outside your office, in uniform-optional settings, doing the work your people do. You cannot lead what you do not understand.
5. Treat your own mistakes and uncertainty as material, not liabilities. Vulnerability, handled honestly, builds more trust than the appearance of having it all figured out.

ABOUT CHRIS HSIUNG:

Chris Hsiung currently serves as Undersheriff with the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office, a role he stepped back into in November 2025 to support Sheriff Ken Binder during a period of organizational rebuilding. He is a retired police chief with more than 30 years of public safety experience in the San Francisco Bay Area, most of it with the Mountain View Police Department, where he worked as a detective and SWAT team member before being appointed chief in 2020.

Chris is a founding board member and Executive Director of The Curve, a national nonprofit he co-founded with Simon Sinek and a network of police chiefs and sheriffs to modernize leadership development in policing. He co-chairs the IACP Human and Civil Rights Committee and holds board advisory roles with the University of Virginia Center for Public Safety and Justice, the Future Policing Institute, and the Crisis Ready Institute. He is a nationally recognized speaker and writer on organizational culture and adaptive leadership.

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• The Curve (thecurve.org)

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Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 10 - Episode 174

Guest: Terry Dwyer, J.D. – Professor, Author, & Playwright

In this episode, Dr. Steve Morreale sits down with Terry Dwyer, J.D., a professor at Western Connecticut State University and a retired New York State Police investigator. Terry shares insights from his diverse career stretching across the Navy Reserves, corrections, the court system, state policing, legal practice, and creative writing. They dive deep into the differences between leadership and management, police culture, systemic issues facing women in law enforcement, and the trauma that impacts officers and their families.

Key Takeaways

• The Foundations of Corrections: Terry strongly believes every police officer should spend time working in corrections first. It builds crucial, real-world communication and de-escalation skills by forcing you to manage difficult situations entirely with your words.
• Leadership vs. Micromanagement: A disturbing shift in modern policing culture is the rise of the "liability-first" mindset. Exceptional supervisors lead by establishing trust and giving their professionals autonomy, whereas poor managers default to punitive micromanagement and "dog-piling" charges onto struggling officers.
• Secondary Trauma & The Family Unit: Law enforcement trauma isn't just about active gunfights; it is cumulative. Terry emphasizes that the true partner riding through the career's highs and deep lows with an officer is their spouse, highlighting his 42-year marriage to his wife, Joan.
• Culture and the 30x30 Initiative: Discussing his background representing female officers in harassment suits, Terry notes that police culture can be intensely insulated. He underscores the importance of the 30x30 Initiative (aiming for 30% women in policing by 2030) and notes that a department's culture is purely dictated by its top leadership.

Featured Works by Terry Dwyer

• Book: The Badge Between Us: Duty, Marriage, and Family – Part memoir, part true crime, and part love letter to his wife, exploring the unseen weight a police family carries.
• Play: Depositions – An MFA thesis play premiered at the Grand Fringe Festival, based on his qualitative research and legal cases surrounding sexual harassment and the experiences of female police officers.
• Upcoming Project: A true-crime book detailing a 50-year-old cold case involving a missing young Black man whose remains were finally identified in 2024, focusing on a dedicated detective who investigated it into his retirement.

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Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 10 - Episode 174

Unlock the secret to transforming police leadership from the front lines. Dr. Robin Engel shares how dedicated research and real-world experience are reshaping police training and community trust—yet the journey is anything but easy.

In this powerful conversation, Robin reveals how her personal history fuels her relentless drive to improve policing—highlighting pivotal moments like her role in Cincinnati’s reform after a tragic officer-involved shooting. You’ll discover her innovative approach to data-driven policing, the critical importance of first-line supervisors, and why understanding and empowering the backbone of police organizations can prevent crises before they happen.

We break down:
How accreditation standards and evidence-based practices guide meaningful reform

• The role of a national consortium, CAPS, in strengthening frontline supervision across diverse agencies
• Why a police officer’s most vital asset is the support from their superior, and how training gaps undermine safety and morale
• The surprising insights from body cam analysis, AI, and administrative data that actually improve decision-making in the field
• Robin’s leadership lessons on uniting community, academia, and police during moments of crisis

There’s a stark warning here: neglecting frontline supervisors and evidence-based strategies leaves departments vulnerable to the chaos of the next crisis. Conversely, building a culture of continuous learning and local leadership means resilient, safer communities. Robin’s heartfelt story of overcoming skepticism and her unwavering commitment to impactful reform is an essential listen for anyone determined to make policing better.

Perfect for police officers, administrators, researchers, and community advocates eager to innovate and bridge the divide between theory and practice. Robin Engel, a renowned professor at Ohio State University and a leader in policing reform, exemplifies the power of knowledge turned into action, making this episode a vital blueprint for meaningful change.

Hey there! Send us a message. Who else should we be talking to? What topics are important? Use FanMail to connect! Let us know!

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If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]

Hey there! Send us a message. Who else should we be talking to? What topics are important? Use FanMail to connect! Let us know!

Contact us: [email protected] 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 10 -  Episode 173

Guest: Chief Ryan Johansen, Apex Police Department, Apex, North Carolina

Most police chiefs walk into a new department and tell people their vision. Ryan Johansen asked questions and took notes for 90 minutes with every single one of his 200 employees. One-on-one. No agenda. Just listening.

EPISODE DESCRIPTION

Chief Ryan Johansen of the Apex Police Department sits down with Dr. Steve Morreale for a wide-ranging conversation on what it takes to rebuild a police department's culture, restore officer confidence, and lead with both conviction and humility.

Ryan came to Apex, North Carolina about 15 months ago after five years as chief at the San Bruno Police Department in California, just south of San Francisco. He made the move with his wife and family, driven by a desire for a different environment and a chance to do something meaningful. What he found was an agency with purpose-driven officers who had pulled back on proactive policing, and a community watching crime numbers rise as a result.

He walked in with a clear belief: most of what ails policing starts inside the organization. If officers are treated as numbers, managed through policy, and punished more than developed, it shows in how they treat the public. Johansen flipped the model. He spent 90 minutes one-on-one with every one of his 200 employees, asking questions, listening, and taking notes. He made clear that the org chart runs the other way: everyone in the building, including him, exists to support the officers answering calls.

The conversation covers a lot of ground. Ryan talks about his early days at the San Diego Police Department and what he learned by leaving a 3,000-officer agency for a 50-officer department in San Bruno. He talks about taking the chief's job in San Bruno just two days before Covid lockdowns, and then navigating George Floyd and the calls for reform that followed. He describes walking into the Apex roll call room, tattoos and all, introduced only as "Ryan, from California," and what he said to a room full of officers who weren't sure what to make of him.

He and Steve dig into the managing versus leading debate, the difference between policy and culture, the false safety of no-pursuit policies, and what servant leadership actually looks like when it's time to discipline someone. Johansen is candid about the tension between institutional pressure and personal courage, and why he believes most police chiefs live in fear of the average three-year tenure rather than leading the way their people deserve.

This is a refreshing, honest conversation with a chief who isn't performing. He says what he believes. And the people around him are proving it works.

KEY TOPICS COVERED

• Career path from San Diego to San Bruno to Apex: what each stop taught him
• Why he believes policing "breaks good humans" and what he is doing about it
• The recruiter's words that brought him to Apex ahead of schedule
• What a real listening tour looks like: 90 minutes, one on one, with every employee
• Managing versus leading: where chiefs spend their time and why it matters
• The discipline dichotomy: development versus documentation
• Command and control culture and its effects on officers in the street
• Extracting a vision versus dictating one: how to earn genuine buy-in
• AI in policing: low-risk value versus high-risk shortcuts

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If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 10 - Episode 171

In this episode of The CopDoc Podcast, Dr. Steve Morreale sits down with Christian Quinn, retired Fairfax County Police executive and founder of Fulcrum Innovations.

Christian traces his path from Massachusetts summer police officer to one of the technology leaders in one of the nation's largest county police departments. The conversation then dives into the rapidly changing world of artificial intelligence in policing.

Steve and Christian explore:

1. How AI is already affecting police operations and investigations.
2. Why agencies need governance, policy, and training before deploying AI tools.
3. The risks of deepfakes, synthetic media, and digital evidence manipulation.
4. How leaders can use AI responsibly to improve efficiency without surrendering critical thinking.
5. What police executives should be doing right now to prepare their organizations for the future.

Key takeaway

This is a candid discussion about the opportunities, blind spots, and ethical challenges that come with AI in public safety. If you lead people, manage policy, or are trying to understand what AI means for policing, this episode offers practical insights from someone who has been on both the operational and technology sides of the profession.

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If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 10 - Episode 170

EPISODE SUMMARY

What happens when a police chief walks into his first department meeting and tells the staff, "I'm here to serve you — not the other way around"? For Chief Tom Wetzel of the University Circle Police Department in Cleveland, Ohio, that statement was not a slogan. It was a commitment he has carried through three decades of policing, from dispatcher to lieutenant to chief.

In this conversation, Tom shares a leadership philosophy built on servant leadership, dignity, and what he calls the "sweet spot" between accountability and motivation. He is direct about what he has seen: too many police departments creating more stress for their officers inside the building than on the streets. The politics, the gossip, the nitpicking, the heavy-handed discipline — it follows officers home, sits with them at the dinner table, and follows them to bed. He believes that is not just a morale problem. It is a leadership problem, and it is fixable.

Tom also discusses his book, A Cop and a Coffee Cup, a short, practical blueprint for police supervisors and leaders. The concept is simple: imagine a wise, seasoned officer sitting across the table from a young leader, with one cup of coffee and one shot to pass on what matters most. That is the book. It covers how to develop inspired and accountable officers, how to handle discipline with grace and discretion, and why the word "clemency" belongs in every chief's vocabulary. If you lead people in blue — or aspire to — this episode will give you a great deal to think about.

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If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 9 - Episode 169

EPISODE SUMMARY:

Steve Morreale sits down with Captain Dr. Heather Glogolich of the NJIT Police Department in Newark, New Jersey, for a candid, deeply personal, and professionally rich conversation about what it means to lead in policing today. Heather brings more than 22 years of law enforcement experience, an EdD focusing on domestic violence and higher education, and a hard-won perspective on what it takes not just to survive in a male-dominated profession, but to thrive in it and bring others along.

Heather speaks openly about her journey from the Morris County Sheriff's Office to patrol officer, lieutenant, and now captain, including having to sue her agency to secure a promotion she had earned. Rather than letting that experience define her bitterness, she channeled it into a commitment to mentorship and transformational leadership. Her story is one of accountability, growth, and choosing to lead with love, even when the institution made that difficult.

The conversation ranges widely, from the real reasons women remain underrepresented in law enforcement leadership, to the operational risks of empathy, to why she believes the first day on the job should include leadership training. Heather challenges comfortable assumptions, pushes back thoughtfully on conventional DEI narratives, and delivers a message that will resonate with anyone trying to grow as a leader, regardless of rank, gender, or years on the job.

KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED:

• How Heather's path from the Morris County Sheriff's Office to NJIT shaped her leadership philosophy
• Women in policing leadership, the 30x30 initiative, and the real reasons representation remains low
• Balancing being a great cop and a great parent without sacrificing either
• Her personal experience as a survivor of domestic violence and how that shaped her doctoral research
• The difference between sympathy and empathy, and why empathetic policing carries operational risk
• Suing her agency to earn a promotion and what she did with the chip on her shoulder
• Culture change within your sphere of control when you cannot change the whole organization
• "Lead with love," servant leadership, and transformational leadership in practice
• Why the first day on the job should include leadership training
• How to mentor others while still seeking mentorship yourself, including her work with Simon Sinek's curve.org

Hey there! Send us a message. Who else should we be talking to? What topics are important? Use FanMail to connect! Let us know!

Contact us: [email protected] 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at [email protected]