The Edge Podcast

Felipe Montealegre is the Founder and CIO of Theia.

A liquid crypto investment fund explains why they believe the four-year token bear market is coming to an end and how they're deploying capital. Felipe explains why his team concluded 99% of crypto tokens, excluding a few SoV tokens, should be valued on discounted cash flows and how that view kept them out of certain overvalued L1s and L2s. Plus, more on positioning for what Felipe calls "the best opportunities in four years!"

In this episode, we cover:
+ Why the bear market is ending: reasonable valuations, tokenholder rights, and revenue growth
+ Understanding Edge vs. Brier scores: why being contrarian and right beats just being right
+ The real bottleneck for RWAs: the need for financially sophisticated underwriters, not more engineers

------
💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS

🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

👻 MANTLE | Aave V3 is live on Mantle

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro
2:00 - Who is Theia?
4:02 - AI tools accelerating research
10:37 - How Felipe’s team applies mental models to investing
18:46 - The 4-year token bear market and why it was necessary
24:15 - Tokenholder rights: What they are and why they matter
28:37 - Thoughts on Across token buyout
32:08 - Signs the token bear market is ending
35:23 - Do you believe in the four-year cycle?
39:19 - What is MetaDAO and futarchy?
49:56 - What Theia looks for in liquid token investments
56:18 - "Bear markets are where you make all your money"
58:12 - Making the case to invest in high integrity founders
1:01:14 - Real RWAs vs. narrative RWAs
1:04:40 - The real RWA bottleneck: Why we need underwriters, not engineers
1:06:35 - The investment manager of the future
1:11:28 - Why major VCs are pivoting away from crypto
1:16:57 - Brier vs Edge: Why being contrarian and right beats being right
1:21:25 - How to find edge when DeFi is full of duopolies
1:26:35 - Closing

------
🔗 GUEST LINKS

► Theia and Felipe on X: https://x.com/TheiaResearch
► Theia Mental Models: https://www.latticeworkofmentalmodels.com/

------
🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER

► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/

------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast.

Hart Lambur is the CoFounder of Across.

We host a timely new discussion on the reasoning behind the first ever major token buyout in DeFi, a proposal to convert ACX tokenholders into equity shareholders of a traditional private company for Across. Hart explains how the $25M treasury would finance the buyout, and the vision for Across's future as stablecoin infrastructure where "$1 equals $1" and users pay nothing to move money across chains.

In this episode, we cover:
+ Why the token model isn't working: DAO governance challenges and misaligned incentives
+ How the buyout works: token-to-equity conversion, and who can participate
+ The new business model: Free stablecoin movement powered by intents, with issuers paying fees instead of users

------
💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS

🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

👻 MANTLE | Aave V3 is live on Mantle

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro
1:27 - Hart’s background with Risk Labs
4:46 - Big announcement: Across token buyout proposal
9:13 - How the token buyout works: rolling into a private entity
10:58 - History of the ACX token: Why it launched and what wasn't working
14:26 - High FDV tokens and broken markets
18:54 - Token governance challenges
20:13 - ACX token ownership: DAO, investors, and retail breakdown
24:32 - Token to equity conversion
25:35 - $25M Across treasury will finance the buyout
28:38 - New business: Making stablecoin movement free for users
36:09 - Why DAOs struggle with B2B contracts vs private companies
40:39 - How the new business works between Across and stablecoin issuers
42:28 - What are intents and how they power Across's "$1 = $1" vision
45:58 - Three paths to success
47:30 - Closing

------
🔗 GUEST LINKS

► Across website: https://across.to/
► Across proposal: https://forum.across.to/t/the-bridge-across/2097
► Hart's thoughts on token buyout: https://x.com/hal2001/status/2031737518505537907?s=20
► Across on X: https://x.com/AcrossProtocol
► Hart on X: https://x.com/hal2001

------
🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER

► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/

------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast.

Davide Crapis is an AI Lead at the Ethereum Foundation.

AI agents are already choosing which blockchains to use. Davide Crapis, AI Lead at the Ethereum Foundation, explains why Ethereum is building the infrastructure to win them over and what the internet of agents looks like in the near future.

In this episode, we cover:
+ Why AI agents are rational actors when choosing chains
+ From experiment to infrastructure: How ERC-8004 creates the railway for agent economies
+ Ethereum's most underappreciated advantage: ZK protocols for verification and privacy
+ The future of agents hiring each other with onchain payments

------
💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS

🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

👻 MANTLE | Aave V3 is live on Mantle

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro
1:21 - Davide’s background
5:10 - AI doomers vs. reality: Separating signal from noise in AI discourse
12:18 - What is the dAI team at the Ethereum Foundation?
13:32 - What is an AI agent?
15:42 - Which blockchain will AI agents choose? (and why Ethereum)
19:14 - Would AI agents ever design their own blockchain?
21:37 - The AI agent mania, from memecoins to infra
25:38 - Explaining ERC-8004, agent-to-agent commerce
31:03 - Identity and reputation for AI agents
34:54 - Thoughts on OpenClaw mania
37:55 - Top use cases for AI agents on Ethereum
39:58 - Ethereum's most underappreciated advantage for AI
41:16 - What matters when agents are the primary users?
46:22 - What does the internet of agents look like 5 years from now?
49:27 - How AI agents will change the UI we use today
52:12 - The future of AI coordination on Ethereum
55:23 - Closing

------
🔗 GUEST LINKS

► Davide's personal website: https://davidecrapis.notion.site/
► Davide Crapis on X: https://x.com/davidecrapis
► ERC-8004 proposal for trustless agents: https://eips.ethereum.org/EIPS/eip-8004

------
🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER

► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/

------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast.

Gil Santos is Lead Quant at Credora, and Marcin Kazmierczak is CoFounder of RedStone, which recently acquired Credora.

We dig into why DeFi desperately needs credit ratings, how Credora is building them, and why this is the missing piece for institutional capital to flow onchain. Gil explains the problem: DeFi has transparency of transactions but opacity when it comes to risk. You can see every trade onchain, but you can't tell if a Morpho vault is genuinely safer than another. Credora is building the Moody's and S&P for DeFi—real-time, dynamic risk ratings that update as market conditions change.

In this episode, we cover:
+ Why DeFi needs a ratings protocol ($10B rated, 80% Morpho TVL coverage)
+ The L2Beat parallel: Raising standards for the industry
+ How Credora ratings work: assessment from collateral → markets → vaults
+ 2026 vision: Stablecoins to $1T, fintechs offering rated yields to retail

------
💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS

🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro
1:26 - Gil’s background
3:28 - RedStone’s acquisition of Credora
5:48 - Problems in DeFi: Risk, trust, and information asymmetry
9:26 - The history of credit ratings in TradFi
15:17 - What is Credora for DeFi?
16:39 - How do Credora ratings work?
19:54 - Rating scale in crypto vs. TradFi
22:08 - Probability of significant loss: What the ratings actually measure
27:19 - How Credora makes money without compromising credibility
31:55 - How vault curators opt in to ratings (and Morpho's role)
36:19 - How much is automated? Dynamic ratings vs. human oversight
38:09 - Rating RWAs, derivatives, and tokenized commodities
41:11 - Why Credora won't become the "big bad ratings agency"
44:29 - Institutions coming onchain and the L2Beat parallel
47:53 - Institutions already demanding ratings
48:44 - Credora revenue and RED tokenomics: Post-acquisition strategy
51:00 - Long-term vision: Rating everything and raising standards
51:53 - 2026: Fintechs, prediction markets, and onchain parameter updates
53:57 - Why DeFi-mullet products could benefit from Credora
57:18 - Closing

------
🔗 GUEST LINKS

► Credora website: https://credora.network/
► RedStone website: https://www.redstone.finance/
► Credora on X: https://x.com/credoranetwork
► RedStone on X: https://x.com/redstone_defi
► Marcin on X: https://x.com/MarcinRedStone
► Gil on X: https://x.com/gil_n_santos_

------
🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER

► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/

------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad and Nomatic are investors in RedStone.

Gabriel Shapiro is a top legal expert in cryptoassets and tokenization, who is now Founder of MetaLeX, where he's building onchain legal entities and tokenized securities infrastructure.

We dig into Vitalik's recent tweet about refocusing on Ethereum L1 scaling, why Ethereum's commitment to maximum decentralization matters, and the evolution of L2s. Then Gabriel dives into why you don't actually own your stock and how that figures into the emerging RWA sector. We explore why this system exists, why most RWA tokenization recreates the same broken intermediaries, and how MetaLeX is building true ownership onchain.

In this episode, we cover:
+ Why Ethereum is refocusing on L1 scaling and what it means for L2s
+ The Cede & Co revelation: how stock ownership actually works
+ Three tokenization philosophies (and why most recreate the problem)
+ BORGs: Cybernetic organizations that merge legal entities with smart contracts
+ Unbreachable legal agreements using private keys as legal authority
+ How MetaLeX replaces Carta + AngelList + DocuSign atomically
+ AI agents spinning up their own companies with legal personhood

------
💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS

🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro
1:54 - Vitalik’s viral tweet to refocus on scaling Ethereum L1
5:26 - Why did Ethereum move to L2s in the first place?
8:54 - The decentralization vs. scale trade-off: Why L2s took a different path
13:01 - If the trilemma is solved, have L2s lost leverage?
14:37 - What this changing dynamic could mean for L2s
18:16 - What is Stage 2 and why some L2s avoid it
20:10 - The problems with RWA tokenization today
22:21 - Why you don't actually own your stock
26:13 - Why the system exists and the three ways to tokenize securities
28:40 - Where Canton sits in the tokenization landscape
32:19 - Custodial tokenization risk: How DTCC could influence hard forks
34:54 - What is MetaLeX? And how we get to real ownership of RWAs onchain
42:08 - What is a BORG? Cybernetic organizations explained
43:42 - MetaLeX V2: Unbreachable legal agreements
48:11 - Replacing Carta + AngelList + DocuSign + law firms atomically
53:54 - Can agents spin up their own companies?
58:34 - What drives Gabriel: Cyberpunk dreams
1:03:18 - Next 12 months, progress towards Ethereum's true corporate finance layer
1:06:23 - Robinhood's tokenized stocks approach
1:11:21 - Closing

------
🔗 GUEST LINKS

► MetaLeX website: https://metalex.tech/
► Gabriel's 2018 post on Tokenizing Corporate Capital Stock: https://metalex.substack.com/p/tokenizing-corporate-capital-stock
► MetaLeX on X: https://x.com/MetaLeX_Labs
► Gabriel Shapiro on X: https://x.com/lex_node

------
🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER

► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/

------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. Gabriel, DeFi Dad, and Nomatic all hold ETH.

Mike Silagadze is the CoFounder and CEO of ether.fi.

Ether.fi is building crypto's own Revolut, a fully integrated banking experience that's self-custodial, with lower fees and higher rewards than traditional fintech. In Q4 2025, ether.fi Cash hit $126M in card spending, up 160% quarter over quarter, making it the largest non-custodial crypto card.

Mike breaks down the business model (Stake, Liquid, Cash), how they survived October 10th with zero liquidations, and why 2026 is the year they go mainstream.

In this episode, we cover:
+ How Cash revenue is diversifying the business beyond ETH exposure
+ Why they're not another DeFi casino
+ $50M revenue in 2025, forecasting $100M+ in 2026
+ Token holder rights and why value accrual must be enshrined
+ Tokenized stocks and gold coming in March 2026

------
💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS

🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro
1:25 - ether.fi's business model: Stake, Liquid, Cash
2:30 - TVL vs revenue, what ether.fi optimizes for
6:22 - How Cash is tripling revenue share and diversifying the business
8:51 - How ETH price affects ether.fi's revenue
10:25 - Digital asset treasury partnerships
11:47 - How ether.fi survived Oct 10th with zero liquidations
17:22 - ether.fi Cash hit $126M in spending Q4 (160% QoQ growth)
19:35 - Why ether.fi is the largest non-custodial crypto card
22:54 - Customer acquisition costs
25:33 - Is the card business profitable on its own?
26:29 - The $100B corporate card opportunity
30:39 - Team of 38 employees, staying lean
32:07 - 2025 revenue: $50M (up from $25M in 2024)
34:31 - Token holder rights: Why value accrual must be enshrined
41:03 - The buyback debate, why ether.fi does them anyway
44:28 - What if BlackRock ever acquired ether.fi?
48:47 - Going mainstream beyond DeFi (millions of users)
50:18 - Vaults as essential infrastructure for a DeFi bank
52:58 - Mr. Beast's neofinance app, competition or rising tide?
54:17 - Tokenized stocks and gold coming in March 2026
57:10 - Closing

------
🔗 GUEST LINKS

► ether.fi website: https://ether.fi/
► Token Terminal ether.fi Q4 2025 Report: https://x.com/tokenterminal/status/2019121507331604772?s=20
► ether.fi on X: https://x.com/ether_fi
► Mike on X: https://x.com/mikesilagadze

------
🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER

► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/

------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad invested in the seed round for ether.fi.

Leo Lanza is a well known Ethereum investor and content creator.

Markets are panicking. ETH is down 50% from its all-time high. Sentiment across all crypto markets is at multi-year lows. But Leo remains steadfast.

He breaks down why Ethereum can't be replicated, why the four-year cycle is breaking, and how the CLARITY Act could be crypto's biggest catalyst ever. He explains why ETH is valued like gold or oil, not a tech stock, and walks through the math behind his $80,000 price target.

In this episode, we cover:
+ Why Ethereum is like Netflix replacing Blockbuster
+ His $80,000 ETH thesis
+ Why the CLARITY Act changes everything for institutional adoption
+ L2s as Ethereum's weapon for distribution and growth
+ What could break Leo's bull case

------
💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS

🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro
3:04 - Leo’s background
4:18 - Why focus on Ethereum?
5:45 - Why Leo came out swinging when Ethereum was being attacked
9:46 - ETH is not a tech stock: It's like gold or oil
18:02 - The $80,000 ETH price target and how we get there
20:39 - The four-year cycle is breaking: Liquidity vs. halving
28:32 - Are we in a bear market or just a pullback?
34:52 - The CLARITY Act: Crypto's biggest catalyst ever
41:23 - Tokenization: The $100 trillion opportunity
44:15 - Private blockchains are smoke and mirrors
46:56 - DTCC is a dinosaur trying to survive
52:22 - Vitalik's L2 tweet: What he actually meant
1:00:06 - Rapid fire: ETH flips BTC, TVL matters most, scaling misconceptions
1:03:05 - When clarity passes, what will the market get wrong?
1:04:06 - What signal would tell us the BTC 4-year cycle is broken?
1:05:46 - When will ETH reach new highs?
1:06:26 - ETH hits $80K when TVL reaches $3 trillion
1:07:13 - What could break Leo’s bull case?
1:09:44 - Closing

------
🔗 GUEST LINKS

► Leo's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@l3olanza
► Leo Lanza on X: https://x.com/leolanza

------
🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER

► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/

------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and Leo all hold ETH.

Vlad Novakovski is the Founder and CEO of Lighter, a high-performance ZK-based perps and spot exchange, built on Ethereum.

A year ago, Lighter hadn't even launched. Today it's processing billions in daily volume, handling 500 million orders at a total cost of around $50K. Vlad's background spans STEM Olympiads, Harvard at 18, Citadel trading, and being an early advisor to Robinhood. Now he's building the infrastructure layer for when TradFi and DeFi merge.

Vlad breaks down how Lighter achieves centralized exchange performance on Ethereum, what Robinhood's $68M investment means for tokenized equities, and the post-TGE reality for LIT: token down, volumes pulled back, but fundamentals unchanged.

In this episode, we cover:
+ Scaling Ethereum's top perps DEX
+ Robinhood's $68M bet and tokenized equities
+ LIT token utility and value capture
+ Roadmap: options, prediction markets, fixed income

------
💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS

🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro
2:19 - Vlad’s background
6:47 - What is Lighter? Five goals, one platform
10:36 - How ZK proofs enable high-performance trading on Ethereum
14:41 - Processing 500 million orders a day
16:33 - Why Lighter was at Bitmine's annual shareholder meeting
18:32 - Robinhood's $68M investment and the tokenized equities opportunity
22:16 - The competitive landscape: Lighter vs. Hyperliquid and CEXs
26:33 - How the LLP works and how it differs from other DEX LPs
29:51 - The LIT token launch: What went well
31:45 - Post-TGE reality and the marathon ahead
33:48 - LIT token utility: Staking, fees, and LLP access
37:31 - Revenue and buybacks, what drives LIT value
39:43 - The new Lighter mobile app
41:03 - DeFi is not antithetical to regulators
43:00 - What’s next? Tokenized stocks, options, prediction markets
45:12 - Closing

------
🔗 GUEST LINKS

► Lighter website: https://lighter.xyz/
► Lighter on X: https://x.com/lighter_xyz
► Vlad Novakovski on X: https://x.com/vnovakovski

------
🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER

► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/

------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast.

David Choi and Conor Moore are CoFounders of Permian Labs, the builders behind USDai.

AI infrastructure is projecting trillions of dollars in CapEx spend, but there's a problem: traditional finance can't keep up. Banks move too slow. Private credit funds can't scale. The most important commodity in the world has no liquid debt market.

USDai is filling this gap by financing AI infrastructure with GPU-backed loans, offering stablecoin depositors 10-15% APR. David and Conor break down how they're using DeFi rails and tokenization to create liquid debt markets for GPUs, enabling institutional borrowers to access capital and retail users to earn yield on productive AI infrastructure.

In this episode, we cover:
+ Why trillions in AI CapEx can't get traditional financing
+ How USDAI structures loans against GPUs, not businesses
+ Why this could become "the interest rate of artificial intelligence"
+ Their two-token model: USDai vs. sUSDai

------
💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS

🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro
1:45 - Founders background from NFT lending to AI infra
5:52 - “The more you know the price, the less money you make”
8:51 - The AI infrastructure financing gap, trillions in CapEx, no capital
15:22 - What is structured credit and why does it matter?
19:33 - How USDai GPU-backed loans work
24:54 - Addressing the Pine Analytics critique: Lagging utilization
34:13 - Why AI infra borrowers can use crypto rails
36:00 - Real-time GPU monitoring with Chainlink oracles
36:51 - “Mercenary capital” vs common sense capital
39:14 - Why launch the token before full PMF?
42:34 - Are USDai borrowers riskier to lend to?
45:26 - Warehouse receipts and UCC 12: How USDai tokenizes GPUs
50:58 - Managing GPU depreciation risk
53:28 - What keeps the founders up at night
54:05 - USDai vs. sUSDai, the two-token model explained
58:25 - The CHIP governance token
59:10 - What’s next: The road to $1B in loans
1:00:21 - Closing

------
🔗 GUEST LINKS

► USDai website: https://usd.ai/
► USDai on X: https://x.com/USDai_Official
► David Choi on X: https://x.com/0xZergs
► Conor Moore on X: https://x.com/_ConorMoore

------
🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER

► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/

------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast.

Benjamin is the Founder of Cap and DeFi Dave is the Founding Head of Growth.

Token launches are broken. Founders pay exchanges 5-10% of supply, airdrop to farmers who dump immediately, and wonder why everything goes to zero. Benjamin calls it "the conveyor belt to death." Cap is breaking the playbook: no CEX listing fees, no token airdrops, and no TVL deals paid in tokens. Instead, they're doing the first-ever Stabledrop—$12 million in stablecoins to early supporters, funded by their upcoming ICO on Uniswap.

In this episode, we cover:
+ Why the status quo token launch playbook leads to death
+ The Stabledrop: How $12M in stablecoins rewards early users
+ Cap's three rules: No airdrops, no CEX fees, no token TVL deals
+ ICO mechanics on Uniswap and who's eligible

------
💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro
1:34 - Breaking the playbook: Cap's three fundamental rules
15:54 - What is Cap and how it works?
16:49 - The Stabledrop: Airdrops reimagined with stablecoins
18:17 - How founders and the community responded
19:24 - How is the Stabledrop calculated?
25:06 - Homestead Program: Double points in first month
27:21 - How the $12M Cap Stabledrop works
29:44 - CAP ICO mechanics: How the Uniswap sale works Feb 9th
35:50 - Closing

------
🔗 GUEST LINKS

► Cap website: https://cap.app/
► Official Cap Stabledrop details announced: https://x.com/capmoney_/status/2019079426823303371?s=20
► Cap on X: https://x.com/capmoney_
► Cap Labs Limited on X: https://x.com/caplabslimited
► Benjamin on X: https://x.com/Benjamin918_
► DeFi Dave on X: https://x.com/defidave22

------
🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER

► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/

------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad and Nomatic invested in the Cap seed round.