In the mid-1100s, Bernard of Clairvaux, a mystic and monk in France, considered how we experience the love of God. He published a devotional called the Love of God, in which he identified four degrees, or progressions: (1) loving ourselves for our own sake, (2) loving God for our own sake, (3) loving God for his own sake, and (4) loving ourselves for God’s sake. In a fascinating conversation, Wayne and Sara ponder these progressions in their individual relationships with God and in their relationship with each other, before the revelation of Sara's trauma and after.

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