275. Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NIV "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."

*Transcription Below*

Hi, I'm Emily Johnson. I am a homeschool mama of two beautiful kiddos, married to my high school sweetheart, and the owner of Gracious Healing, a online nutritional practice that works with families to get to the root of their health issues with a holistic view and approach. I deeply love Jesus and pursue Him in all that I do, including health.  After walking through decades of undiagnosed health issues, I was lead to the world of functional medicine and eventually into the holistic health world. After finding support for my body and that of my kids (who have been on their own health journeys) I was able to pursue further education and began working with clients on a 1:1 basis, to help them find the hope and health that I have found.

Emily's Website

Questions and Topics We Cover:

Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team

Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen

Additional Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Healthy Living:

33 Pursuing Health in the New Year with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan

48 Pursuing Health, Not Vanity Before and After Childbearing with Blogger, Speaker, Coach, and Podcaster, Megan Dahlman

80 Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George

90 Friendship with Drew Hunter

126 Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons — The Savvy Sauce Podcast

129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri — The Savvy Sauce Podcast

212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Transcription*

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

Thank you to the Sue Neihouser team for sponsoring this episode.

If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors. You are in for a treat today.

My fabulous guest is Emily Johnson. She's a homeschool mama who married her high school sweetheart, and she's now additionally the owner of Gracious Healing, which is an online nutritional practice that works with families to get to the root of their health issues with a holistic view and approach. Emily has so much goodness to share to encourage each of us about our own health and also how we can pass these healthy habits along to our children.

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Emily.

Emily Johnson: (1:29 - 1:31) Thank you so much for having me.

Laura Dugger: (1:32 - 1:46) I'm so excited to chat with you today, and I'd love for you just to start off by vision casting the biblical reasons for pursuing a healthy life, both for ourselves and for our family.

Emily Johnson: (1:47 - 3:22) Yeah, I feel like this is a question that I have wrestled with a lot, right, because there's so much depth to this, and so, obviously in a short podcast we're trying to like paint the picture. I think the best way I can paint this picture without really going into like deep theology is just this idea that when we have a big picture of the destiny that God has for us and our children. We want to steward every part of our lives, including our health, to be able to run after all that he has for us, right?

If He came to give us life abundantly, that doesn't always look like maybe this Western view of abundance. When we kind of approach our health in the same way we do our finances and our resources and steward them well. I find that that big picture actually helps kind of keep us on this path of like, right, my kids may love McDonald's, maybe want to go to McDonald's all the time, but the reality is I believe that I know who God created them to be, and I believe that he has this destiny over them, and so, if I allow them to steward their bodies poorly in a way that makes them sick and tired, then they're not able to run after that destiny fully, and then, right, there's this limitation, and so, to have this idea of abundance, this whole holistic view, is that we steward our mind, our hearts, our spirits, our bodies, it's all one, and if we steward that according to God's Word, then we just get to run with him in such a way that just brings joy in life.

That is so opposite, I think, then what happens when we're sick and tired and depleted.

Laura Dugger: (3:23 - 4:00) That's a good word, and I think all of this information, you do such a great job with all of your work running it through the lens of parenting so, we can help our kids, but it's helpful even for me to remember everything that's healthy for our children is also healthy for us as the parents, and so, I appreciate that reminder, but I'd love to just go through some various areas and see if you even have quick tips to get us started for ideas, so, we'll just begin very basic, even water and hydration. Can you just lay the groundwork here?

Emily Johnson: (4:01 - 11:08) Yeah, so, to backtrack a little bit to what you said, because I think it's super important, I firmly believe that in most things, there's always a caveat to some things, but in almost everything, you can't give what you don't have, so, how do we give our children health and a big picture and asking them to steward something when we ourselves don't have the experience of what that means, and so, I think that it's a whole family affair, but often we are the gatekeepers, so, as parents, if we are not open and willing to understand health and wellness, then how do we ask our kids to do that, and so, I feel like that's just kind of so often it starts with mom, honestly, so, kind of running into water, hydration, there are so many pillars, right, you can look at all sorts of different practitioners out there, health, kind of all sides, whether you're looking at kind of Western medicine, or you're looking at more traditional, like Eastern medicine, or you're looking at holistic, functional, right, everybody's going to have the like seven, eight pillars to health. I think that almost everyone would agree within those pillars are going to be different, but almost everyone has hydration as a pillar, right, and why do we need hydration as a pillar?

We are, our bodies are so, there's so many facets and different mechanisms within the body, but so much of it depends upon hydration, and if the cell has enough water and electricity, right, to operate and continue those processes, I feel like so often when we look at hydration, just, we just are, and it's not so much just drinking water, right, some people are like, I just am not drinking enough water to stay hydrated, and that is a huge factor, but when we look at hydration and just what happens when the cell doesn't have enough water, and you're just, right, your body is depleted of that hydration, you will, right, be more tired, I feel like, again, disease kind of sets in quicker, that cell doesn't have the capacity to do what it's supposed to do, and bowels move slower, right, you, your skin is more dry and cracked, like there's just so many different facets of detox and flushing things out that are dependent upon hydration, but I think that we have to look at one, how much water are we drinking? I think some people, everything in health I have found is truly that Goldilocks approach, sometimes we want to take something and we want to run with it and be like, well, if a little is good, a lot's better, right, and it's often this approach of like, what is really best for you and your body and your system? So, when we look at water, we want to be well hydrated from just the metabolic perspective, but with that, we're looking at how much water are you drinking and what is in your water, right, so, if you have somebody who's drinking super contaminated water, it's going to be adding toxins as they're adding water, right, and so, we want to look at what kind of water are we drinking, then we want to say like, how much water, right, there's a kind of a general rule of thumb that people jump off of and they would say, half of your body weight in ounces is a good place to start. I say that's true for most people under certain conditions, if you are somebody who is, right, sometimes I will find that people will drink a hundred plus ounces of water a day, but then they're drinking just as much coffee and energy drinks along with it, and so, you're like, that's a lot of pressure on your kidneys to have to flush out all of that liquid, and then you have somebody who is potentially eating very processed food, right, that processed food, so, we think anytime we take what we're going to say is like man food or God food in the way God created, right, so, God created water to be enriched with minerals, structured water, you find it in nature when water is like running over a brook and like hitting those rocks and kind of moving that becomes almost electrical within it, and so, when you look at how God created the water and we see that is what's best for our bodies, now we backtrack and we say whenever we take something that God created and we kind of make a man version of it, it often requires more nutrients within our bodies to process that, so, when you have like processed food that's void of hydration, void of nutrients, it's going to actually require your body to take the reserves that it has to process that thing within the body, so, hydration is no different, right, when we're eating really whole good foods that are full of water content, right, like watermelon, cucumbers, chicken, ground beef, right, if we're not overcooking things, it should hold moisture in those foods, so, when we're eating whole foods, we're actually getting hydration, right, when we're drinking herbal teas, we're getting good minerals and hydration, and so, I say a lot of people it's like okay, yes, do the like half your body weight in ounces for an average person, but also take into account are you somebody who's sweating a lot and you're just constantly working in an environment where you're dripping with or you're an athlete, you're probably gonna need more than that, are you a person who eats really good whole nutrient-dense food and you don't eat any processed food and you're not necessarily overly exerting yourself in sweat, you may not need that much hydration, right, so, kind of listening to those body cues, I've always heard when you find you're thirsty, probably because you're already dehydrated, right, so, being on top of it, I feel like so many of us do better in the summer because we're hot and we're thirsty, but being intentional all the time with kind of trying to measure that amount of water and then taking into account other things. One of the parts of cellular hydration that I feel like it's often missed and this might be going down a rabbit trail, so, you can cut me off if it is, but when you have a healthy functioning body, your mitochondria will make ATP and one of the products of ATP is actually like a fourth phase of water, it's like a little gelatinous form of water, which is super, super hydrating, so, somebody who is really metabolically functioning well and getting all the nutrients and vitamins they need, the rest, the sunshine, right, they're just living that life and their body is thriving in it, they actually, again, may need less water because their body's producing enough water that they don't necessarily have to be chugging the same amount of water, so, I find some people, if we're overexerting our water, we might want to ask the question, why are you so thirsty all the time, why are you drinking so much water, there might actually be something metabolically imbalanced. Kids are super great, I feel like they're so intuitive that unless they're drinking sodas and juices and energy drinks, if they're just drinking water and eating whole foods, most of the time they're pretty good at knowing when they need water and when they don't.

Laura Dugger: (11:09 - 11:20) Because is that rule, I guess, generally recommended as well with the half your body weight in ounces, is that the same for kids and you feel like they're just natural at regulating that?

Emily Johnson: (11:21 - 12:27) Yeah, and so, sometimes you look at a kiddo who's super tired all the time, and you might ask the question, how much water are they drinking, right? The other thing I find with kids, with kind of this like new Stanley water bottles and stuff for women, it's a little bit different, but I feel like with kids, because we're so like in this mindset of kids get water bottles, right, and you like fill their water bottle up before you send them to school or daycare or whatever, or just for the day, unless you're drinking out of a glass cup at home all the time, most kids just naturally fill up a water bottle, I find just nowadays. And so, it's easier to track their water, I feel like for most kids.

And so, okay, kind of that general rule of thumb, in general, half your body weight. You know, my son, when my kids were in public school, he used to come home and like none of his water, like his water hadn't been touched, right? And I'm like, okay, you went six hours through a whole day and never took a sip of water, right?

Like that's obviously would be a problem. But I think he was so distracted at school, right? That like, he wasn't realizing kind of those cues within his body to reach for his water.

But yes, it would be the same for kids.

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Okay, well then you also mentioned sunlight.

So, how does sunlight and just general outdoor time impact our children's health?

Emily Johnson: (15:20 - 21:49) Yeah, so, there's again so many rabbit shells we could probably go down on this, but in general I always look at the body as what did God create and how close to nature are we living or how far away are, right? So, there's a doctor that is always quoted, he says, you know, the further away from nature that we get the more disease that we see, right? And so, when you look at sunlight and getting your feet on the ground, so, from a metabolic perspective, sunshine is super important for our circadian rhythm.

It's super important just for cellular health, for energy, right? So, when you get that sunlight on your face that not only gives you vitamin D, if you kind of have the processes in the body right to convert the sunlight to vitamin D, but it is also going to be super helpful for your eyes because the minute your eyes see sunlight in the morning, people always say, I can't sleep at night. And I'm like, okay, what do you do the first hour of your morning?

Because the first hour of our morning actually sets that clock for the rest of our day and actually kind of helps us fall asleep at night. So, when you look at sunlight and just the way that it actually helps your circadian rhythm, it's gonna help naturally calm. If you ever go outside and you feel a little bit anxious and then you go outside and you almost just breathe, right?

Like I think there's just this beautiful calming effect that the sun has on most people, right? It just lifts your mood. It's just because our bodies are so deprived of sunlight.

When you look at, again, the cell, it's why red light, things like that, people really enjoy because you do get some of those light waves within them, like your skin absorbs it. And then, right, it just kind of helps your adrenals, your cellular function, and just in general your body. There was an interesting study years ago that I had come across that was actually talking about chickens and how, right, why do you use chicken lights?

Why do farmers use chickens? Because if you don't use a warming light and give, get like a fake sunlight, right, on the chicken, they'll molt in the winter, and they won't lay eggs. But as long as you keep stimulating the sun by getting light on their skin, then they actually keep reproducing eggs and their feathers don't molt.

And so, they were using that study to say, okay, how does that affect humans, right? And I always feel like God gave us the sun and, right, he, when we're out in the sun, like so many parts of the body just process better and more efficiently. Then you mentioned getting your feet on the ground, right?

And so, when you look at the electromagnetic fields within the earth, they are, again, God-made electric magnetic field. When you get your feet on the ground, when you're in nature, when you're out in, there's a grounding effect that happens. So, I think this happens in both our physical and our spiritual sense, right?

So, physically, you actually start getting, in the same way we need water, we also need really good electricity within the body to, again, kind of make all those processes of the body happen. When we are so, when we're kind of living under false light, we're not getting our feet on the ground. We're not getting out in nature where everything is kind of artificial, right?

The body just doesn't thrive in the same way that it does out in nature. So, getting our kids outside, getting them in the sunlight is not only gonna help just make them feel better, it's gonna help their skin, right? Their energy of the body, all those different things.

Then getting their feet on the ground, they're actually can start absorbing that electromagnetic field from the earth. It's why astronauts, right, when they go off into space, they actually, their body ages really, really, really fast because they don't have the gravity and they don't have that electrical pull that happens when we're out in nature. There's some fun studies that talk about how when you get like even just like one 24-hour period of like camping is enough to totally reset your circadian rhythm.

Just like one and then it lasts, right? There's some other studies on the immune system and how when we're in nature for just even two to three days consistently, right? And so, that looks like man-made environment going in nature for a couple days and then coming back to man-made environment and how that just boosts your immune system, you know, for up to several months, like it just kind of lingers, right?

And so, the idea is that we're always in nature, we're always getting outside, we're always gonna get these benefits. Because I work a lot with children with neurodivergent issues, one of the best things again, we can do for our kids from a brain development perspective is actually letting them get outside and run around and climb on things and jump off things and right because that actually helps strengthen parts of the brain as well as just their overall body. For kids who are super nearsighted, getting them outside in the sun and doing work and stuff outside actually will help strengthen those eye muscles.

So, there's just so many cool benefits. I think even just when you look at, you know, being inside a building, you have walls, right? So, your depth perception, your awareness is still kind of closed in.

But when you go outside in nature and you're even just in your backyard, right? There are no walls, right? So, there's just an expanse and your mind and your perception, what you hear, what you see, what you smell, everything just gets kind of grounded is honestly the best word.

And I think even spiritually, you see that, right. We started gardening years ago, not because I'm particularly good at gardening, but because I had read that like, the parables in the gospels are so much more amplified when your kids understand what it looks to farm. And obviously, we live in town, we don't live on land where we can like do the full farming thing.

But at least the idea was that our kids would understand what it means for a seed to go in the ground, what it means for it to sprout, what it means, you know, to have to prune the peach trees, what it means to have, you know, to, to be able to harvest after you've done all of this work, right? And so, that even just those things, like there's so much more, I think, spiritual, and physical and emotional of just being in nature, right? We slow down; we just appreciate God's beauty in a different way.

And then metabolically, we just see all the amazing benefits that it has.

Laura Dugger: (21:50 - 22:13) And I'd never heard that before about camping resetting us even for months. If that feels too big for somebody to do right away, is there any recommended amount of time just as we're getting started, even as it's starting to get colder out, when the weather is tolerable, what amount of time will we maybe start to see benefits of being outdoors?

Emily Johnson: (22:14 - 25:41) Yeah, so, everyone, unfortunately, right, is a little bit different in kind of, because it's going to depend on what you're doing inside too, right? So, if you're on a screen, 24 hours a day, and then once you go outside, you can spend 20 minutes outside, right? I would say most of my clients, I encourage 20 minutes a day outside, even when it's really, really cold, right?

Because there's also beautiful benefits of cold therapy. So, as you're moving into the winter, sometimes I'm like, that's actually so fun, because you get light in the morning, you get your kids outside, they get their energy out, and they're getting cold exposure, which is also super helpful at boosting the immune system, right? It's a hormesis stress.

So, there's some stresses that are really bad. And you kind of want to avoid those stresses, right? But there are other stresses that in short measurements actually increase the ability of the immune system to kind of modulate it and boost just resiliency in general.

And so, honestly, even cold in, I just think with air conditioning, with lighting, with all that stuff, right, we have just kind of lost our ability to be resilient from a biological perspective. So, the more in the summer, when it's really warm, and you're pushing your kids outside, right. They're kind of getting like, “Oh, it's too hot.” Or when it's in the middle of winter, and you're pushing your kids outside. They're like, “It's freezing cold, right.”

And so, it doesn't have to be a lot, but I would say a little bit. And I also find that it's kind of the teenager and adults that have a harder time being outside, kids will always run outside and play, right? Once you get them out there, I feel like most of the time, they're, it's hard to then get them back in.

But I would say in general, starting off with just, and you know, I say 20 minutes for kids, because I think that's super important. And even more, right. So, I love the like 100 hours, you know, a year outside, like a lot of that initiative in those books are just so cool.

Because it just kids love charts, and they love being outside. So, an hour a day is another kind of helpful benefit. But I would say, if you're really struggling, depending on the schedule, and just your work and sports and all the things, any amount outside is going to be beneficial.

So, grab your coffee, go stand outside, even in the cold, even if it's still dark outside, right, sip on your coffee for five minutes. And then as much as you can do throughout the day to just get outside, park a little farther away from the grocery store. So, you get a little bit more time outside, right?

Camping in your backyard, if you're like, I don't want to go camping or my kids used to, you know, put hammocks out and sleep outside. Just that type of stuff. It doesn't have to be like going into the middle of the woods and hibernate, you know, it can be these little chunks of just exposure.

Even when we say nature, the studies of all that I've always come across are like deep in the woods. But we also see the benefit of just being outside, even in a rural area, right, or super industrial area, or a super heavily populated city, like it is still, you still see a lot of benefits, people in New York who are just going outside on their patio, like you still see health benefits. So, I would say, make a resolve amount of time and stick with it until that becomes easy.

And then you start doing the next thing, right?

Laura Dugger: (25:42 - 26:12) I love that. Okay, that's doable to start with a bite size and some is better than none and more is better than some. I'm also thinking, as you're talking about cold therapy and grounding, maybe not for kids with cold plunging, but are there any other kind of bio hacks? Are grounding mats that we can sleep on, is that helpful for children too, if they're not getting the amount of time barefoot on the ground outdoors as we would like?

Emily Johnson: (26:13 - 29:08) Yeah. So, one of the things we think about with grounding is again, eating whole nutrient dense food that is going to help that mitochondria, right? Those types of foods, the electrical current of the body, that actually I find some kids don't need to kind of ground like on the grounding mats, maybe the way an adult would, because they're just not depleted as much energy, right?

As maybe an adult might be. Grounding mats, I feel like can go either way because some kiddos, adults too, I just think kiddos, you're not as aware of it as maybe an adult might be that some, even with grounding mats, I have some very sensitive clients who can't do like manmade EMFs, right? So, anything electrical that you're plugging into a wall, Wi-Fi, even like batteries sometimes, you know, they're just very sensitive too.

And so, sometimes those kinds of biohacking things don't work super well if it brings in kind of a manmade current. PEMF is one of my favorite. Most kids respond well to that.

And it just kind of boosts the cell backup. I don't know if I've had great reviews from people with grounding mats that anyone feels any different. I don't know if it's placebo.

I just haven't had personal testimony that it does a whole lot. PEMF, I definitely have had lots of testimony that kids feel more grounded, adults feel better, just overall kind of addresses the whole cellular function. Red light is my next favorite, because again, if you are sensitive to EMF, you can stay away from it and you're still getting it on your skin.

So, you see some of those health benefits. Red light is probably my favorite because I just think it's so much easier for kids to do. And there's so many different variations out there that can be super helpful.

Again, just getting light on the skin can just kind of help boost the overall, just cellular process of the body. You said cold plunges. Cold plunges, again, yeah, for adults are great.

Kids, it's just hard to measure. But cold washcloths, right? Cold, even just like a cold face plunge, right?

Some kids don't mind that and that can be super beneficial for them. But most kids you're like, just go outside in the cold and you start to see the benefits of that. But I have a couple of kids just from a nervous system perspective, they get really amped up and real worked up, right?

And obviously for an adult, I'd be like, go cold plunge. For a kid, you're not going to necessarily do that. But we take ice packs and I just say, take ice packs, put them on the face for just a little bit until they're tolerating it.

And a lot of times that will bring kind of that nervous system back into balance, just putting ice packs on your face.

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This is new to me. Did you say PEMFs or what is that?

Emily Johnson: (29:54 - 31:35) Yeah. So, it's post electromagnetic field therapy. Yeah.

So, it's kind of, and there are homemade ones or like ones you can get for home that are doable. Therisage is my favorite one just because it's price wise, it's doable. Most I've had lots and lots of testimonies of, you know, autistic kiddos that just they're calm when they're sitting on it.

And then there's really great like high tech ones that you would find. Pulse centers is my favorite. Like they're just really expensive.

So, most of the time you're going to go to a pulse center center of some kind or chiropractor or something like that that might have one. But the idea is that it is trying to mimic as close to the ground, right? So, when you think EMFs in nature, there's a certain frequency that the sun gives off a certain frequency that the earth gives off.

But manmade EMFs tend to be significantly higher and just way, way, way out of range of kind of what these manmade or I'm sorry, God made ones are. So, when you're sitting on a PEMF, it's kind of mimicking that frequency of the earth and the sun. So, you get kind of there's different frequencies for different levels.

So, pain, neurological, kind of resetting your nervous system, sleep, like there's a lot of different frequencies that you might look at if depending on the health concern that you have. But again, it's sensitive to like manmade EMFs and sometimes having something plugged in the wall that you're sitting on doesn't really do it for you.

Laura Dugger: (31:36 - 31:54) Okay, you're making me even think of weighted blankets then as well. But before we go there while we're on EMFs, are things like AirPods the worst for us? Or what are practice to have in place to avoid the most harmful EMFs?

And why are they harmful?

Emily Johnson: (31:55 - 37:20) Yes, yeah. So, so, again, when we're thinking the best way I feel like I can describe it without getting super, super sciency is that it is kind of like these frequencies are coming at us in a way. So, when you're outside on the ground, right, your body, it's like this really beautiful hurt, like slow hurts that your body is receiving.

When you get into these higher frequencies, it's kind of like microwaves, right? Like it's just this constant noise that is bombarding your system. So, one of the things that you hear a lot in health is, and I know this is again, maybe a little bit of rabbit trail, but I think it applies to maybe kind of encompasses lots of conversation here.

But when you think about health, we're always saying like, can you stay in a place of rest and digest? Can you say is your nervous system always in this heightened fight or flight stage, or even worse. So, it's called dorsal vagal.

When you jump up to this, like freeze mode and your body just kind of freezes, right. We're not making good cells. We're not necessarily running from a dragon, right.

Or a lion or something. We're not like scared in that way, but we're not, we're also not resting and we're not digesting and absorbing either because there's this heightened kind of nervous system reaction that's happening. So, when you look, obviously, we always think of stress as emotional, right.

And it's like, oh, I want to avoid the stress emotionally, but metabolically we're looking at what externally also is causing stress on my system. And so, EMFs, because we don't see them, I think a lot of people don't realize how problematic they are, but it's almost this, like, you can't feel the, you can't see the wind, but you can feel it, right. It's kind of like that in the sense that you can't necessarily feel the EMFs, but if you were to take certain electrical measurements, you're able to see like that's emitting a ridiculous amount of frequency.

And so, you think of like just sitting in your living room, super calm, relaxed, right. But if you have all of this bombardment of EMFs kind of at a frequency level hitting your body, then without realizing it, you're like, why does my body always feel like it's stressed out? And so, again, from a resilience perspective, how do you fight infection and deal with actual stressors in your life?

If you're in a place of always being in this kind of heightened fight or flight stage. So, EMFs, manmade EMFs, there's a lot of different ones you can talk about. There's ones, obviously you have an ACDC that runs through your walls that can be problematic.

You have Wi-Fi. I would say the top things that I would say for most people, AirPods, I would say is relatively low. It depends on how much you wear them, right?

If you're a kiddo who's wearing it 12 hours a day, it's not super great. Some people would say that unless you get like a tubed type EMF specific, you know, earbud or headphone that every single one, whether it's wired or wireless is probably not great for you. The younger you are, the more problematic it is because you, the way your brain is and the way that the protection around your brain is, you're more sensitive the younger you are.

So, you can look on like a thermogram and you can see how a kiddo with like a cell phone to their head is going to be like, all of a sudden their whole head is like bright red and hot versus an adult who does the same amount of time. It might be a little bit more like orange, but it's not going to be as bright red because you don't have that barrier around your brain quite yet. When you're little, it's still forming versus when you're an adult, you have more of a thicker skull.

Your brain protection is just different. So, I would say top ones that seem like the most problematic are 5G, because again, it's just this, like, you know, I just read a study the other day that we had more bees die this last winter in America than we've had, right? Like all, like, I don't know, ever recorded, you know?

And the question was, you have really high frequencies, like 5G, that's like disrupting a lot of our animals. And actually, they've shown that it does kill bees, you know? And so, when you think of if it's killing off animals and disrupting kind of the natural way that birds and bees and things are able to communicate and locate where they need to go because that EMF is so, or that 5G is so disruptive, then what is it doing to our own brains and bodies?

So, I would say 5G is not great. So, if you live by a tower, sometimes you do need to, like, protect yourself if you can. That looks like different sheets.

There's different sheets and options and things that you can go on your wall. There's a ton of, like, EMF protection in the world. I don't know if that's necessary for most people.

Unplugging your Wi-Fi at night, talking on a speakerphone and not having your cell phone up to your head can be some of the easiest ones I have found that most people, it feels very doable to unplug your Wi-Fi because that can emit a lot of really high EMF frequencies. And then anything that you can do that's just more on speaker and not in your ear is probably better, but I don't think it's terrible if it's short-term.

Laura Dugger: (37:21 - 37:45) Even going back to that outdoor time, we've talked about clean water, mentioned some clean food, and grounding. All of these things are free options so far as well. And even just how much cleaner outdoor air is compared to indoor air.

Can you speak to how nature is a natural filtration system for air?

Emily Johnson: (37:45 - 38:40) Yeah. I'm trying to think of where we want to go with that. So, I think that when you look at the way that grass and leaves, right, you know, when you're thinking of, like, fourth grade science and you're like, okay, photosynthesis, right, all these different things, the way that they give up oxygen and the way that they filter, you know, different pathogens in the air.

And when you think of the breeze and just the natural way that things move around outside, it is, you're going to just have that natural, nothing's going to settle as much, right? And when you have your indoor, your windows are all closed. You don't have that natural cross bees.

You don't have that natural movement flowing through. And then, right, you just have nature that's just good at releasing oxygen into the air and you have trees that just naturally absorb those toxins. And yeah, does that answer your question?

Laura Dugger: (38:41 - 42:46) It's so good. It's helpful to have those little takeaways. And I'm just thinking, get outside, get outside.

Emily and I were having so much fun recording that we went way over the planned time limit. So, I want to share all of it with you, but we're going to divide this episode into two parts. So, make sure you tune in next time for part two with Emily Johnson.

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

274. Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg

Exodus 31:3 NIV "and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—"

*Transcription Below*

Questions and Topics We Cover:

Margaret Feinberg, one of America’s most beloved Bible teachers, speaks at churches and conferences and hosts the popular podcast The Joycast. Her books and Bible studies, including Taste and See, Fight Back with Joy, More Power to You, and The God You Need to Know have sold more than one million copies and received critical acclaim and national media coverage from the Associated Press, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and more. She was named by Christianity Today as one of fifty women most shaping culture and the church today. Margaret savors life with her husband, Leif, and their superpup, Zoom.

Margaret's Most Recent Work: The God You Need To Know Book and Bible Study

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey

Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh

Special Patreon Re-Release Theology and Discipleship with Ken Baugh

259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen

Fruitful with Laura Dugger

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Transcription*

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:18) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

Do you love to travel?

If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, DreamCellar Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamCellarTravel.com. Today we get to learn from one of the most joyful human beings I've ever encountered.

My guest for today is Margaret Feinberg, and she's an author and researcher and podcaster and speaker. Most recently, her research project turned into a book where she was researching all about the Holy Spirit and His work in the Old Testament and the New Testament, and still His work that's present and active in our lives and around our world today. So, her stories of His specific presence at work in our lives are so moving, and she also pairs that with practical ways that we can more clearly hear from the Holy Spirit and identify His voice in our lives.

We also chat about the true definition of the word weird, which I actually want to elaborate on now because in the moment I couldn't find the definition that was so powerful. So, weird is defined as unearthly or uncanny, extraordinary, involving or suggesting the supernatural, and completely fantastic. Sometimes we think the Holy Spirit may be inviting us into something that seems weird, but He's redefined weird for us, and I just pray that all of us after this conversation will accept the invitation with gladness from Holy Spirit in our lives to join in whatever adventure He has planned for each one of us today.

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Margaret.

Margaret Feinberg: (2:18 - 2:24) What a delight to be with you today. It's absolute joy, and you look fantastic, by the way.

Laura Dugger: (2:24 - 2:45) You're so kind. I can tell that joy is one of your markers already, and that makes me think you just have such a rich spiritual heritage in general. So, we don't typically start here, but can you go back and share your parents' story of coming to faith in Jesus Christ?

Margaret Feinberg: (2:46 - 5:22) Absolutely. I share this in the book, The God You Need to Know, in Bible study, but it's pretty beautiful. They actually came to know Jesus back in the 1970s during the Jesus movement, and my father was raised Jewish, and my mom was not really raised much in the church, and so, they got married, and separately on the same weekend, they came to know Christ. My father, back in the 1960s, he was actually a surfboard manufacturer.

He helped build longboards the very first time that longboards were cool, and these customers kept coming into his little store and telling him about Jesus, and eventually he grew so frustrated that one weekend he went out turkey hunting, and he was sitting in turkey blind, had tons of time around him, and decided to sit down and read the entire New Testament over the course of that weekend, and he read it, and he thought, “Wow, Jesus came to earth.”

He lived, he died, and he was resurrected that we can have eternal life for free, and he thought, in his Jewish brain, that is a good deal, and so, he just believed in Christ, and meanwhile, my mom is at home and has her own encounter. She's finishing reading a book by the name of The Great Late Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey, which was actually the best-selling book of the decade back in the 1970s, and at the end of that book, it had an invitation to come to know Christ, and so, both of them come to know Christ separately on the same weekend. They come home on that Sunday, and they're a little awkward about it because it sounds weird. They don't really want to tell each other, and then finally start to spell out, and there's such joy that they both came to know Christ because the Holy Spirit was at work in their lives. What's amazing is that they had been trying to have kids for the first eight years of their marriage and hadn't been able to conceive, and within a month of them coming to know Jesus, I was conceived. So, you just see the work of the Holy Spirit all over that, and that He is leading people to Christ. He is on the move, and sometimes it doesn't involve any of us doing anything, and that's a freedom marker for us. It's not our job to run around and try to save everybody. Holy Spirit is already at work, and when we have the opportunities to be part of that, it is a privilege and a joy. Trust in a God who is so good and so loving and so kind that He will find people through reading books and hiding out in a turkey blind hunting turkeys all weekend.

Laura Dugger: (5:23 - 5:45) That gives me goosebumps even to hear the timing of that and you being conceived. Then you also had a unique childhood. At that time, not as many people were homeschooled, and your story was fascinating. So, what was homeschooling and spiritual discipleship like for you in the growing up years?

Margaret Feinberg: (5:46 - 8:18) Yeah, so, in those early years, my mom and dad had that mom-and-pop kind of surf shop down in Cocoa Beach, Florida. For all you surfing nerds, Ron Jon loaned my dad the money to marry my mom. I mean, so, we're talking deep surfing roots, still friends to this day, and so, they would work, and a lot of you are entrepreneurs and are listening, and you get this, but they would often work seven days a week, 14 hours a day, just trying to keep this little store open with their employee. It just was. It's just a rough business, retail, and so, the only way that they could get away was they would leave the store in the hands of a manager. They decided to buy a really small, inexpensive boat, and we would go sail from the coast of Florida into the Caribbean. So, as we did that, what do we do for school. I remember for third grade, we actually went for an entire year, and so, it was homeschooling. Now, this is like early 80s, and you have to think like it's not exactly fact-checked, reputable, like you send your work in like once or twice a year. So, I'm living on this boat, super remote, not even around a ton of kids, pretty isolated, and I figured out that if I did all my schoolwork in one day that I could play the other six, and so, that was my year of third grade. Fortunately, things turned out okay, but I learned so much more just meeting people from all over the world, surfing or swimming.

I learned how to, at eight years old, shoot my first lobster because we had to survive off the ocean. So, it was an incredible experience. Then after that, ended up going into public school in the later years once we got to like probably fifth, sixth, a lot more steady than those early years. But you know, the thing that I always saw in my mom was I would wake up, and she would usually be on the couch or on the deck of the boat, and she would be reading her Bible, and there was something about that. It wasn't spoken.

It wasn't like you must do this, but I watched it, and I saw it, and now all these years later, that's what I do. So, for all those mamas and papas who are listening and watching, I just want to encourage you - like how you live, those little things, the kids and the grandkids and the great-grandkids, they watch, they see, and it matters, and so, thank you. Those of you who are engaging in those things. It pays dividends for decades and generations to come.

Laura Dugger: (8:20 - 8:28) That's incredible, and then can you share about your own faith journey? You saw that modeled. When did it become personal to you?

Margaret Feinberg: (8:29 - 11:44) Yeah, you know, even as a young kid, I was aware of God and Jesus and Holy Spirit, and just the Lord was very tender to make Himself real to me when I was young. When I went away to college, and this is just normal behavior, you know, there is that kind of making faith your own, figuring it out, and so, my freshman year of college, I partied like a rock star. I got the bees, the beer, the boys, and the Ben and Jerry, like I, you know, I just all the things, and I remember at the end of that year, I had this sense that God was saying to me like, you are my child. I have called you by name.

You are mine. Come back to me, and I read about this in The God You Need to Know, but one of those was a turning point I went to. It was actually a Methodist conference on Holy Spirit, and while I was there, I had an unusual experience, but in it, you know, I'm watching, I'm listening to all these lectures.

I'm in the conference. I'm attending all these things, and at one point, I had a thought pop into my mind that was not my own, and the thought was go to the prayer room and look underneath the tablecloth. I was like, okay, that's weird, but it was like go to the prayer room and look underneath the tablecloth. So, I'm like, you know what? At the end of the day, like what do I have to lose?

I mean the worst thing that happens is I wander into our prayer room. Okay, we'll take the risk, and I remember going in there, and I'm kind of like there's some people praying (a couple). I'm trying to like I don't want to be weird like I know it's a conference on the Holy Spirit, but still I'm like I am not going to be weird about it. So, I'm like trying to peek underneath a tablecloth, and there's nothing there, and there's all these tables around the room. So, I'm kind of like making my way across, and I'm seeing like one lady like eyeing me like what is happening. So, I peek under another one. Anyway, I go table after table, nothing after nothing until I reach the very last table. I pick up the tablecloth, and there is a Bible, and I look, and it's full of like notes and photographs. So, I pull it out, and there's a name on the front, and so, I just kind of said, “You know, excuse me in the prayer room like does anybody know this person, and most people were like no, and one lady says you know what I do know her, and she had to leave the conference early, and I actually have her phone number.” So, all of a sudden I'm on the phone calling this lady and saying “Hey, I just found your Bible on the phone.” 

She says, “You have no idea. That Bible is full of decades of prayers and notes and photos that can't be replaced. I have been sitting here praying that someone would find my Bible.” So, I'm just in awe like Holy Spirit, I didn't even know - like wow like this is not just a mental learning.

This is a real experience, and so, I told a couple people at the conference about it. One said’ “You know what, actually, if you're driving up that direction, I've been praying to get a ride up that direction.” So, I was able to drop off this ministry worker, return this Bible to this precious woman, and that really became one of the markers in my life. Oh my goodness Holy Spirit is real. He is on the move. He is leading and guiding us, and this is such an exciting thrilling adventure to be on.

Laura Dugger: (11:45 - 12:12) Wow, and it absolutely is. You are an incredible storyteller. It's so powerful the way that you wrote some stories in your books, the way that you're sharing it now. God has really gifted you with that, and that's part of your purpose in life being that storyteller. So, how did you begin to uncover the purpose that God had for you in life?

Margaret Feinberg: (12:12 - 15:09) That's such a great question, so, I'm going to answer that a couple different folds. Can I do that? So, the first answer is all of our purpose is the same. It is to love God, love others, and delight in Him forever.

That is the purpose of all of our lives, and so, that is the answer. At the same time, a lot of what I think you're saying is purpose is a little bit about vocation. Is that right?

And so, we need to recognize that as believers that this idea that somehow our vocation or what we do is our purpose and is supposed to give us meaning and value to God has really only been around for the last 50 to 75 years and largely established in the American culture. But for thousands of years, that has never been the case. And so, what that does is that for a lot of us, when we don't kind of understand that it puts a heavier weight on the job. The vocation that we do to carry all of this burden of purpose, fulfillment, meaning, ordained by God.

I mean, that becomes like a heavy burden for a single job or vocation to carry that it was never meant to. Right? And so, again, back to what is our purpose?

It is loving God, loving others, and delighting. And that never changes no matter whether you are raising littles, whether you are whatever the title on your business card, if you still have those, or identification on social, whatever it is. But that never changes.

And so, I think that we have to step back and recognize that. Now, I do understand that I am in a role in which my job provides spiritual meaning. And that is delightful.

And I am super grateful for that. But in that, my spiritual meaning is still not about what books I write or podcasts or any of that nonsense. It's all about how I'm living in my community and real one-to-one relationships that are done privately and never published on social media.

That is the real life. And so, I just want to encourage everyone out there to think that that job is the thing. The job is never the thing.

Now, don't let that distract you because what do you do when you're retired? What do you do if you can't do that job? But if you are in a vocation, if you are in a role, that to understand, yes, God can use that, and to invite Holy Spirit into that space, but to make sure that we don't find our identity in that.

Because that's a short runway. That's going to end at one point. And to really ground ourselves into the eternal and what does not have an end and what will sustain us from our first breath until our last.

Laura Dugger: (15:10 - 16:38) Wow, I love how you put all of that. And so, I'm going to share a story, so, bear with me because you may not be aware, but back in 2013, our lives first crossed paths. So, back then, we were pregnant with our first child.

And my husband, Mark, and I went with my parents to the American Association of Christian Counselors conference in Nashville. And you were one of those keynote speakers at the Opera Land Hotel. And I was just mesmerized by every word you shared.

And so, I see why people write about you, and they say you're one of America's most beloved Bible teachers, because you were so endearing from the first word spoken. But at the time, you were battling cancer. And yet you were still willing to generously and joyfully share about the goodness of the Lord and the ways that we encounter Him in nature through olives and bees and so on.

But the one other thing that has stuck with me for over a decade is when you encourage the audience of probably thousands of people in attendance, that if we don't know what to be thankful for today, be thankful for nose hairs. So, do you remember that?

Margaret Feinberg: (16:39 - 19:24) I do. Yeah, that defined gratitude in the little things and in the heart. I do.

And the reason I said that, because without context, that sounds really, really strange. But whenever anybody who's out there and is walking through any medical, whether that's mental health or physical challenges, one of the difficulties is in the medical world, they don't tell you everything that's coming. And so, there are all these hidden surprises, and you can read about it, and you can WebMD it, and you can read online, and all of them are just going to say you're going to die tomorrow.

We already know that. We know we shouldn't Google these things, right? But no matter what you're walking through, there are things that people just don't tell you.

And so, I knew that going through chemotherapy, I would lose my hair. And sure enough, in 10 days, it was all falling out. Nobody told me that that included all my hair, including my nose hairs.

And so, what I had to learn the hard way is when you don't have nose hairs, like kind of what holds anything that's liquid in your nose, it just falls out. And so, my encouragement was to everybody, you don't have anything to give thanks to God for today. Give thanks for your nose hairs.

And just a light way of saying, you know, even when you're walking through the darkness, and I know some of your listeners and your viewers are, you are in dark seasons. And if that is you, I just want to say, I get you. I get it.

I have battled cancer. I have battled autoimmune. I have battled being sick for years.

I have battled being embezzled. I have battled surviving a destructive pastor. I know suffering and pain.

But even when we're in the darkness, we are a people who poke holes in the darkness until it bleeds light. And that's who we are. And gratitude is just one of those tools that helps us do that.

So, I just want to encourage you today, like whatever it takes for you. And there is something in this concept of joy. And I don't quite understand.

I can't quite wrap my head around it. But joy is something that you can give away even when you don't have it. And in the process of giving away joy when you don't have it, somehow our capacity for joy expands.

It's a strange equation in God's economy. It does not add up. It does not make sense.

But whether it's, you know, climbing in an MRI machine and saying, man, has anybody praised God from this square inch today? Whether it's showing up and giving just a simple gift to someone else, whether it's writing the note, whether it's encouraging someone else, even in our own pain. When we do that, our capacity for joy just grows bigger and bigger.

Laura Dugger: (19:25 - 21:58) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Do you have a bucket list of travel destinations? Or maybe you have a special event coming up like a big anniversary, a honeymoon, or even just that first trip to Europe?

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You just lived this so well, and I know joy is a fruit of the spirit. Will you share some insight into what you've been learning about the Holy Spirit, especially from all your research from your latest book? As you mentioned, it's entitled The God You Need to Know.

Margaret Feinberg: (21:59 - 25:44) Yeah, I'm super excited about this book and Bible study. I've had a lot of questions about the Holy Spirit since I was a little girl. I remember reading the Bible and thinking, Jesus, He's so real.

He's so human. That I can recognize, and I get the picture of God on the throne, all powerful and sovereign. But when I think about the Holy Spirit, I'd be like, I'm struggling here a little bit.

And growing up in Southern Baptist and Methodist and Episcopal and non-denominational and charismatic, I got little pieces of Holy Spirit, but I just kind of struggled. And I think one of the reasons I struggled is that often, maybe like you, when I ask questions about Holy Spirit, I was like, “Well, you need to go read the book of Acts and read Acts 2.” And that's that beautiful moment of Pentecost where the spirit comes in and it's like a violent wind and tongues of fire.

They descend and people start speaking in other languages and other people hear they're declaring the glories of God. And then all of a sudden 3,000 people get saved. I think that is awesome.

But that doesn't look like my every day. So, I'm not quite sure. And so, for the last few years, I've been struggling to write this book.

And when I really came alive was with a scholar by the name of Jack Levison, and he focused in on the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. And all of a sudden that changed everything for me. Because what happens is if we jump to Acts, and particularly Acts 2 to understand Holy Spirit, it would be like showing up on your wedding day and being like, this is who you're marrying.

And you're like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't know this person. Like we haven't courted. We haven't dated.”

I don't, what, what, what? And yet that's often what we do as believers when we're directing people. And so, I took a deep dive into Holy Spirit throughout the Old Testament, looking at Genesis where Holy Spirit hovers over the waters, the chaos, the darkness, looking at how Holy Spirit hovers over our lives and how that's consistent with God, as in the book of Deuteronomy, as well as Jesus in the New Testament, that hovering like a, like a hen, I wanted to gather the children.

And you start to see this through it. You start to look in the lives of Bezalel, who was the first person who was filled with Holy Spirit, to do what to make and to make those, you know, the tabernacle and to lead an entire guild of artisans. We see the life of the Spirit in Daniel, where all of a sudden Nebuchadnezzar on multiple occasions is saying the Spirit of God is in him.

We have somebody who is literally running around like a wild animal at certain points in his life, who is still recognizing the power of Holy Spirit. I think it's the word in Hebrew is Ketria. We start seeing it in the life of Ezekiel, where the Holy Spirit is lifting him up, giving him new perspectives.

And what's cool is that once you start to recognize the rule of Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, you arrive at Acts 2 and you go, of course, it would happen this way. And suddenly for those of us who for maybe we've been hesitant about Holy Spirit, or maybe we've had maybe a lack of teaching or maybe some teaching that was a little bit abusive and was used to manipulate. Like all of a sudden we can back up from that and be like, oh, Holy Spirit, this is you from the beginning of time.

This is so normal. This isn't weird. This is just part of just being a follower of Jesus.

And so, one of the things that I love about this book is it takes the weird out, takes the scary out. It's so just biblically based, especially in the Old Testament. And I think some of your listeners and viewers will be surprised like, whoa, I didn't know that was, what?

That's where? And that's really fun and exciting.

Laura Dugger: (25:45 - 26:14) Absolutely. I think it did bring to light so many things from the Old Testament, like I said, especially. And I think you were even able to share some of your own stories, and that's why we're so often called to remember.

I think when we preserve and document those and share those stories, we can reflect back and remember God nudging us like he did with you, putting a thought in your mind that was not your own. That increases our faith in others, I think, as well.

Margaret Feinberg: (26:14 - 28:25) I think it really, really does. I think that one of the things we have to remember when Holy Spirit, so, in Psalm 139, we know that God knows he made us in the womb. And so, to recognize that all of us are made differently, and my hunches are some listeners right now who are thinking, man, yeah, I know people who talk a lot about Holy Spirit, but that's just not me.

I don't really see or enact or feel Holy Spirit. And so, first of all to you, I want to say I don't feel Holy Spirit either. I've been to a ton of churches and conferences, and the person on the stage will say, man, do you feel the Holy Spirit here?

And I'll be like, nope, nope, not at all. So, I'm not a feeler. But what I can do in those moments is I can acknowledge with my head, Holy Spirit is here, because we know that as part of the Trinity, Father, Son, Spirit, Holy Spirit is here.

And then secondly, to recognize that like Psalm, you know, that describes that He knew us in the womb, that we are all different. We know today that there's a neurodiversity, right? So, some people learn audio, some people visual, some people like myself, ADD, ADHD.

And God knows that, like the Creator did not make a mistake. And so, wouldn't it make sense that the Holy Spirit, who knows us as the spirit of a living God, would interact with us in different ways? I have an e-newsletter, and I've surveyed, you know, thousands of people, how they recognize the spirit, and it's just so diverse.

Some are like me, a thought pops back in my head that is not my own, that causes me to love God, love others, serve others, take risks in godly good ways. For other people, they do feel it. Some people have like a warmth in their body.

Some people kind of just feel like this, this just comfort or peace, like liquid love that envelops them. Some people recognize God and the Holy Spirit through nature. And so, I listen to this, and I think, doesn't that make sense that God and Holy Spirit would know us so well that He would know how to communicate with us?

And so, that when we start gathering with other believers and say, “Hey, how is Holy Spirit working in your life?” It starts to get this excitement of recognizing it and celebrating it and making it normal and not weird.

Laura Dugger: (28:28 - 28:48) And I think let's even take that one step further. So, if somebody is listening and they currently have trouble identifying the spirit's role or God's direction or Jesus's voice in their life, how would you encourage them with even first steps to grow in attention and recognition of His voice and leading?

Margaret Feinberg: (28:49 - 34:09) Goodness, that's such a great question. Something that's really changed my life in the last few months is my friend, Drake. He's a Young Life leader here.

And he said, Margaret, when I'm training people how to recognize Holy Spirit, he says, “I and the kids get a journal and write one question down for Holy Spirit each day. The question could be about purpose, identity, Holy Spirit, what's on your heart, Holy Spirit, who do I serve today? And write that one question down.”

That's it. That's all we're doing. And then throughout the day, return to that one question in prayer again and again.

And then pay attention to conversations that suddenly you have, Bible passages that flutter through your mind, the sermon that's given, conversations with other believers. Like just pay attention. And it's amazing.

And then the next day or that night, jot down whatever happens. The next day, change the question or keep the same question. And just start changing the posture of your life to pay attention to that one question.

And I think you're going to start to see and encounter some things. It may not happen quickly. It may take a few weeks or even months, but it will happen.

I think I was thinking about this just this morning. I haven't shared this with anybody. But in some ways, like people are like, I don't recognize Holy Spirit.

It's kind of like my friends who are birders. Okay. Some people super into birding.

And I know there are birds. I mean, occasionally I'll see a bird out the window, but birders have a whole different mentality. They slow down.

They pay attention. And they have some tools like binoculars to be able to look and to see. And it's the same thing about paying attention to Holy Spirit.

We've got to slow down, pay attention. And maybe the tool is just asking Holy Spirit one question a day. But suddenly you'll start to see and recognize.

Can I give you a fun story? Please. Okay.

So, just at Easter came around and I was probably a couple weeks before and they're having this crazy good sale at Target on some new releases. So, I'm at the Target website early in the morning before they sell out. And I saw a purse and I bought myself a few things.

But I saw a purse and I immediately thought of my friend Janella. And so, I was just like, I'm just going to buy this for her. Now, let me be clear.

I've never bought a purse for her before. I don't really carry around a ton of purses. I'm a Apple pay, like keep it light.

Like it's just not my thing. But put it in the cart, send it to her. So, I get a text from her about a week or two later.

And she goes, how did you know? Did I tell you about my Easter meltdown? And I said, no, I didn't know.

And she tells me, and I had known this, that her mother had passed away last year. What I didn't know is every single year, since she was a little girl for Easter, her mom would buy her a dress and a purse. And this was the first Easter without her mom.

And she could justify financially buying the dress, but not the purse. And all of a sudden this purse, which wasn't a normal purse. She's like, this is an Easter purse.

I was like, I don't know that, but okay. Arrived. And she said, I just, I just cried because I knew that the Lord saw me.

He heard me. You know, he was with me, part of his kingdom. And so, she says, but here's the thing.

The purse matched my dress perfectly. And you start to see that happen. And I didn't hear a voice from God say, go buy your friend a purse.

I was just like, “Hey, I've been praying every day, a single thing from Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, will you order my steps?” And then you see something that you couldn't orchestrate on your own in 500 years happen.

And you go, that is the work of Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit in the New Testament, it's parakletos. It means advocate.

It can be translated comforter, advisor, barrister. For those of you watch too many British shows like I do, you know, the legal counsel. But if I were to kind of break that down from just biblical words, here's how we know it's the Holy Spirit.

Number one, Holy Spirit will remind you: God loves you. God sees you. God hears you.

And you're part of His kingdom. And what happened in that story was both of us experienced that. God loves, He sees, He hears, and we're part of His kingdom.

And so, that is the thrilling part about life in the Spirit. It's not so I feel good or I have little things that happen. It's about being part of God's kingdom on this earth, living out the life that Christ describes and designed for us.

And so, we cannot do that apart from Holy Spirit. And also, you may notice I haven't been using the term the Holy Spirit because we wouldn't say I talked to the God today. I talked to Jesus.

And Holy Spirit is a person; a person you can have a relationship with. And just as you can have a relationship with Christ and talk to Christ, you can do the same with Holy Spirit who is, again, paracletes, your advisor, your comforter, your helper. Why would you not tap into that?

Why would you want to spend a life missing out on the fullness of that?

Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 36:48) Oh, that's good, and I'll have to try and apply that and refer to Holy Spirit rather than I even did it there, the Holy Spirit. I'm thinking in the book of John, I love the amplified version where it says, “one of the things to describe Holy Spirit is standby.” And I've thought of that so many times because I love looking up definitions and seeing exactly what that means.

And it's just the immediacy of the help available. And that's been a way that I've experienced Him in my life especially the short prayers of help, please help now. Or if I need direction, a lot of times it comes in parenting for me, like, I'm not sure which way to go.

Can you give me discernment right now? And He's immediately available. So, I would say my own personal experience, it's a lot of what you've mentioned, definitely through reading the Bible that I feel like He speaks so much.

You're like, well, bring the words off the page. Journaling is such a practical way. And I'll link to our friend Chris Allen's episode just about hearing from God and training our kids on how they can do the same.

Just those thoughts that they're not always from us, but we're processing thoughts that are given to us. But one other thing, so, this is inspired from your book. You mentioned about dreams and just asking Holy Spirit to speak to you through dreams.

So, in our life currently, one of our daughters is going through some health issues and we were launched into having to do this FODMAP diet. And it's not that big of a deal, but I had never heard of it before. And it limits and restricts quite a few things.

So, the immediate need of that seemed a little bit overwhelming. We're kind of in a busy season and completely revamping everything our family eats all day. I've been preoccupied and kind of consumed with that.

So, twice this week, because in my quiet time I felt like God just kept saying, bring it to me, come to me with this, ask me the questions. And so, I've been journaling and I feel like He's been responding with Scripture. But the last two nights in a row, I've woken up with a recipe in mind for our family.

And that has never happened before. But you are the one who challenged us just to say, just ask. And that was probably, probably started asking over a month ago.

So, thank you.

Margaret Feinberg: (36:49 - 40:32) Wow. I love it. And you know what?

That makes me want to ask. Does that make sense? Like there's this excitement and there's this joy.

When you share about how Holy Spirit is working in your life, I'm like, I want that too. And that's just, yeah, I think that so often we forget who is with us.

The person, the person of Holy Spirit is with us. We don't have to keep all this striving and straining. And man, I got a life hack this on my own.

You know, there is this availability of the power and the presence of the person of Holy Spirit, the spirit of the living God. One thing I want to note on the Trinity, just so that I don't, I don't want anybody to think, oh, she's just cutting out one part of the Trinity. No.

Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. A couple of things on that. Number one, often, and part of the emphasis on the Holy Spirit, a little bit more in looking at this in the Old Testament, is when we see things in groupings of three, we tend to think that the third one listed tends to be lesser than or third place.

Right. And yet Father, Son and Spirit are equal. And what we see throughout the Bible is we have to remember that where there is one, all are present.

And so, like in creation, we see God take the lead. But, you know, Holy Spirit is mentioned in Genesis 1 to Jesus using the reference of we is there. And so, we start to see that the word, I think it's the word perichoresis is this term that describes the Trinity in a dance.

And so, at different parts of Scripture, we'll see one member of the Trinity take the lead, but the others are always present, whether it's, you know, Jesus taking the lead in the Gospels. But we see the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. We see God saying, this is my son and whom I am pleased.

Well, please listen to Him. And so, to recognize that, but also to recognize, again, like this, this reality that Holy Spirit is in us and with us. Like, wow, that starts to change everything.

So, all of a sudden, and you say, “It's no big deal changing the way your family eats. Can I just say that is an enormous deal. The time that it takes to prepare the food, the thinking, the thought space, the bad recipes, it is so big.”

So, you can try to minimize that. But I'm just going to say, “First of all, I'm glad there's a way forward, but I'm sorry, because that is massive. And it's a lot.”

And Holy Spirit wants to meet us there. Remember Genesis 1:2, “In the beginning, God created the heavenly earth and the earth was formless and void.” Tohu wavohu in the Hebrew.

“And the spirit was hovering over.” That word is merechefet. And it means to hover, to brood like a mama eagle.

One rabbi translated it as to flutter. And what is the spirit fluttering? Remember in the Bible, sorry to go to teaching mode, but whenever someone is introduced in scripture, the introduction is the most important.

We see that in the life of Saul. He literally is hiding in baggage and can't find his own donkeys. And it plays out that way, right?

So, how is Holy Spirit introduced? Could have entered any place and comes on the scene hovering over the chaos, the uncertainty, and the unknown. And so, here you are in that place of uncertainty and unknown, a little chaotic.

And what is Holy Spirit? Here's a recipe. 

Doing what? Reminding you, you are loved by God. You are seen by God.

You are heard by God. And you are part of this kingdom. Man, when we start to share these stories, it just, oh, it creates this hunger to experience and know the spirit more.

Laura Dugger: (40:32 - 42:02) It does, and it's so humbling, just his loving kindness. 

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Are there any other stories that come to mind to think of Holy Spirit being alive and moving and working in people's lives today?

Margaret Feinberg: (42:03 - 46:15) Oh, I'll give you one that I just found. You know what's so funny? Again, when you start to use the prayer prompts, when you start to do these just like a burger, all of a sudden you're like, oh my goodness, I didn't know how many birds there were.

So, went over to our friend's house. It was somebody at church. We actually, they weren't our friends at that point.

We noticed that when they came to our church, the son is on the spectrum. And so, in Sunday school class would often just stare at the wall in the corner by himself, not interact a whole lot, and their daughter. And so, my husband said, hey, let's bring a meal over to them.

And they invited us to stay for dinner. And so, the son comes in and he's probably maybe nine years old, wrapped up in a blanket, like a little burrito. And he won't make any eye contact with us.

You know, the mom's like, say, “Hello to Margaret.” Won't interact. Kind of woombas around, disappears, comes through a few times.

Finish eating. We go out in the living room. And the mom starts telling the story that she was exhausted as a mom.

She was completely burnt out. And she just said, “You know what? I'm going to the reservoir and I'm going to go paddle boarding.”

Just take a few minutes for myself. So, she goes out. She's paddle boarding.

All of a sudden she sees like a piece of paper on the surface of the water. She looks down and she goes, what is that? So, she picks it up.

Turns out to be a QR code to the zoo. Now, she doesn't know if it's used trash or what, but she's like, I'm going to keep this. She paddles some more, sees another piece of paper.

It's another QR code to the zoo. She's like, maybe they blew away from the, I don't, so, she grabs it. And she prays and she says, Lord, now you know that we're a family of four.

So, if we're really supposed to go to the zoo, we need four of these. Keeps paddle boarding. Finds two more.

And so, she comes home and says, “Guys, we're going to try to go to the zoo. I don't even know if these work.” But next day goes to the zoo, scans them.

Boop, boop, boop, boop. They all work. So, they go to the zoo.

So, they're walking through. And all of a sudden, the son comes upon a display of red pandas. And he just stops in his tracks.

And he stares and he watches. And the rest of the family, you know, the sister and the dad want to go on and they do. But he just says, “Mom, can we stay here?”

And so, he stays there for several hours just staring in this strange connection. He's never had, Mom had never seen anything like this with the red pandas. And so, she's telling me this story.

And suddenly I look around their living room and I realize there is panda paraphernalia everywhere. She looks at her son and says, “Honey, why don't you go put on your panda outfit?” Disappears, comes back in the panda outfit.

And all of a sudden, he's looking at us. He's talking to us. He's engaging us.

He goes over to his parents and paws them like a panda. And all of a sudden is snuggling with them. And she says that one encounter at the zoo changed their relationship with their son.

She says there are days that my son will get completely overwhelmed and start having a meltdown. And she'll use panda language and go up to him and say, “Well, you know that pandas eat 13 hours a day. Maybe you need a snack.”

And it is provided this connection and this new language for them as a family that they never had before. All because she went paddle boarding at the reservoir and pieces of paper started floating on the surface of the water. Friends, this is the work and power and presence of Holy Spirit.

Reminding us we are loved by God. We are seen by God. We are heard by God.

And we are part of this kingdom. And for your listeners, that may be strange stories of paper. And that may seem really odd.

But, man, I read a book that talks about Jesus saying, “Hey, go check out the fish.” And all of a sudden a coin to pay taxes comes out of his mouth. I read a book that declares that, you know, he is the alpha and the omega.

He is the beginning and the end. He knows where we are. He knows what we need.

And He wants to intercept. And sometimes that shows up like recipes in your brain in the morning.

Laura Dugger: (46:16 - 47:27) Amen, sister. And you can keep sharing as many stories as you want. But one more.

As I was reading your book, it was actually over Easter weekend. And at that time we had some tornadoes that were passing through the Midwest where we live. And in the middle of the night, we're all up.

We're in the basement. And once the sirens ceased, we got our girls back to bed. And we came and I just wondered, we came back to bed and I thought, is this just going to be for a few moments?

Is it going to happen again? Are we going to be up all night and need to take cover? So, with those concerns on my mind, I crawled back into bed.

And, you know, cortisol is kind of rushing through. So, I picked up your book to read. And my eyes fell to the words you quoted from part of Isaiah 31:5.

So, I specifically fell to this where it says, “He will shield it and deliver it. He will pass over it and will rescue it.” And I fell asleep well knowing that I could receive comfort from Holy Spirit, that the storm had passed for the night and God was shielding our family from it.

And indeed He did. They ceased.

Margaret Feinberg: (47:28 - 47:42) Isn't that incredible? I mean, we talk about I mean, just that's the word of God and the power of Holy Spirit, like speaking right in that moment in that exact situation. That is awesome.

Absolutely awesome. I love it.

Laura Dugger: (47:43 - 48:17) So, I love just Holy Spirit is even working through the words on your pages. I want you to be encouraged. I know you've prayed over this resource, but it's so incredible.

Somebody once said that books are little missionaries. And it's so true throughout the world. You have no idea who's cuddled up in bed reading these words and getting to encounter him.

So, thank you for all of your work for this. But Margaret, do you have any other practical tips that you want to impart to us so that each of us can cultivate the fruit of spirit in our lives?

Margaret Feinberg: (48:18 - 50:39) Yeah, I would say, you know, if you're if you're new to this and this idea, you know, pick up a copy of The Gods You Need to Know. There's also a Bible study. I am passionate about doing this in community.

The Holy Spirit, we often in the Americana church, think of our little personal private relationship with Jesus. And that's not church history. That's not the work of God.

Since the beginning of time, it has always been through relationships and community and recognizing that each of us has something to bring to the table in relationship with God and each other and gifts and talents and insights. I am in my questions. I think I referred to this later or earlier about, you know, I surveyed a bunch of people in my newsletter just about, hey, so, how do you recognize Holy Spirit?

One lady responded and she said, “Well, I recognize Holy Spirit because whenever I'm lost, I ask Holy Spirit for directions, and I just know where to go.” And she goes and it happens over and over in, you know, neighborhoods when I'm driving, when I'm going places. And I thought, okay, so, first I'll just be honest. My first thought was that's weird. I haven't heard that before.

And we assign anything weird that we aren't familiar with. And then I thought a little longer. I thought, man, I want her on my team.

I want her on my team because I get lost all the time. And I think that at times, sometimes we encounter people who encounter the Spirit differently than us. Remember that neurodiversity, but to recognize living in relationship, hearing how Holy Spirit works in different, sharing those stories.

There's something contagious and powerful in it. So, I would say definitely pursue Holy Spirit in relationship with others. Get together with others.

Start talking about this. Start praying together. Holy Spirit, we want to know you.

You know, it's okay to say, Holy Spirit, in the past, I've seen really unhealthy things. Or nobody's really taught me about you. But I trust that as the Spirit of the living God that you want to reveal yourself.

Just start praying, Holy Spirit, I want all of you. See what happens over the course of a week or two of praying that.

And what you become aware of. What Bible passages flutter through your mind. What conversations you suddenly stumble upon.

What answers to things you've been plagued with suddenly come. I trust God that if you ask and you honestly pursue, God will show up and show off.

Laura Dugger: (50:41 - 51:45) I completely agree. And now I'm curious to look up. I feel like the Lord has kind of put on my mind the word weird this year a few times.

Because truly, when you think of what he did, even in the Old Testament, think of Noah, just like, okay, I'm obeying. I'm putting nails in this wood for never seeing rain. It's weird what we're called to sometimes.

And I think that's what can make me hesitate for obedience sometimes. Like, that feels weird. Or I don't want people to think I'm weird.

So, I'm going to look up the definition of weird. I'd love to read it to you. Okay, so, I just looked up the definition of weird.

And it says, suggesting something supernatural or uncanny. And I think we should reframe the word weird. And when we're invited into something weird by supernatural God of the universe, that's an incredible invitation, like you say, to adventure.

So, I hope we can embrace the weird.

Margaret Feinberg: (51:47 - 54:41) And to recognize that feeling of, I don't want to do this. This feels strange. That is universal.

That is not you. That is not unique. And for all of our listeners and viewers, I have it.

Everybody has it. When we're trying to discern, you know, if something is prompted by the Holy Spirit, number one, is this, does this align with scripture? And does it align with the character of God?

Does it increase my dependence on God? Which means it's probably going to go against my natural instinct, which unfortunately is pretty self-word rather than outward. Does it cause me to love God and love others more?

And so, of course, Holy Spirit is going to be working in this expansive ground to pull us away from our self-word direction outward. And that is always going to be stretching and feel strange. And sometimes we're not going to see the outcome.

And we've got to become comfortable with that. We are not responsible for the outcome. We are responsible for obedience.

Some time ago, I swim a lot. And I just felt just in my gut, like, talk to the person in the lane next to you. And so, I go out swimming, and he's next to me, and I'm like, okay.

And so, I started this conversation with this elderly gentleman. And I'll just be honest. It was more like a non-versation.

I mean, we talked about sports ball teams and the weather and nothing. I really cared. Nothing deep.

Nothing meaningful. And on one hand, maybe I misheard. Okay.

But no harm, no foul. I mean, I showed kindness to a stranger. Loved others.

Like, there's no, like, okay. You know, on the other hand, I will never know what might have happened. Maybe he felt left alone.

Maybe he felt seen. But the outcome doesn't matter. And so, there are going to be times that we step out, and we see it, and we encounter it, and it's so exciting.

And there's going to be other times that we go to that thing, and we go, Lord, I didn't even know what that was. But maybe that was about quick obedience. You know, almost like building a muscle, getting stronger to say, you did it then.

I'm going to keep challenging. I'm going to give you opportunities to do this again and again. Because I want you on the front lines of, you know, eyes are searching to and fro for people who are, you know, obedient, quick to respond, that Holy Spirit wants to use.

And so, know that not seeing a result, totally normal. Keep going. Keep going.

Because you will see responses sometimes. And it is awesome. And in part of that, it's almost like building a muscle that I think God is so gracious and so loving kind that he will show you, like, quick outcomes sometimes when you respond to that little impulse to keep you going.

But there are going to be times you're not going to see them, but he's still at work. Because, again, you may be one of 17 people in a long chain where the fruit or the outcome as part of God's kingdom is still coming. And after a while, it's fine to be number 4, 7, 9.

You don't always have to be number 17.

Laura Dugger: (54:42 - 55:06) That's so good. That is such the biblical principle of being faithful with little. And then sometimes He allows us to be faithful with much.

And, Margaret, this is not your only resource that you've written for all of us to enjoy. Can you share some of your other resources and what's available or what you've learned that we may learn if we pick up a copy?

Margaret Feinberg: (55:06 - 56:31) Yeah. You know, I've definitely the most passive. I just gave four years of my life to this book and Bible study.

I do a ridiculous amount of research, so, I'm very, very slow. So, top would be The God You Need to Know book and Bible study. But I think another one, and you referenced it earlier, is a book called Fight Back with Joy, and it's also a Bible study.

And it just takes a look. You know, it tells a little bit about my cancer story, but it's really about anybody who's battling anything. You know, sometimes in life we pick the battles, and sometimes the battles pick us.

And sometimes that's in your marriage, maybe a custody battle. It may be a health issue. It may be a financial calamity.

It may be the loss of a business. There's just so much in a strange relationship with a kid that you love so much. And in that darkness, you know, it's so easy to sink.

And this book and study is just, it shows that more than whimsy, joy is the weapon we use to fight life's battles. And gives just tons of practical tactics on how to enact that and what that looks like, and how, most importantly, how to rally around others in a healthy, beautiful way when they are in the midst of that. I think one of the failures of the church today is to really equip and train believers of every size and form of how to love others well in the midst of their pain.

What to say, what not to say, how to give, how to support. And this book and resource really does that well.

Laura Dugger: (56:32 - 56:43) Oh, so grateful for all of those. We'll make sure and add a link in the show notes. And if we want to connect or follow you after today's conversation, where would you like to direct us online?

Margaret Feinberg: (56:44 - 57:09) You can find me at my website at Margaret Feinberg. I do my most loving of my people, I'll just be honest, through my e-newsletter. I mean, I sit down, I pray over, I pour my heart and my life into that.

It's quiet. Nobody ever sees it. I am also on socials, on Instagram, at Facebook, at MA Feinberg, at Margaret Feinberg.

But I would love to connect with you. And if anybody wants to email, my email is [email protected].

Laura Dugger: (57:09 - 57:26) Love it. Thank you for sharing all of that. And you may be aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.

And so, as my final question for you today, Margaret, what is your savvy sauce?

Margaret Feinberg: (57:27 - 58:05) My savvy sauce is waking up every day and asking the Holy Spirit one question. When I don't know what to pray, I just say, “Holy Spirit, order my steps.” And if you will do this, you will do this for just 15 days.

I have a belief. It may just change the course of your life. The great part, it takes less than 30 seconds.

This is not doing heavy lifting. This is not time consuming, man. If you're raising those littles and you are overwhelmed, if you're running a business and you are overwhelmed, something very simple like this can change everything.

Laura Dugger: (58:06 - 58:10) So good. And you are so obviously connected to the vine, to the Lord. And I just want you to receive this, the fruit of the spirit.

I have experienced every single one in this conversation from engaging with you today. You are loving, joy, peace, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controlled. And all wrapped into one.

So, praise the Lord for the way He made you. You are an absolute delight. I have enjoyed this so much.

Thank you for being my guest.

Margaret Feinberg: (58:10 - 58:11) What a privilege and joy. Grateful for you.

Laura Dugger: (58:11 - 1:02:30) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news. 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin. 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him. 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started. 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Release: Teaching our Children about Finances with Markie Castle

1 Timothy 6:6-10 (NIV) "But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."

*Transcription Below*

Markie Castle is a wife of 41 years, mother of 3 and is blessed with 7 grandchildren. After teaching at ICC for 20 years, she retired to help take care of all those blessings! Her husband Bob and she have been living in Peoria and attending Bethany Baptist Church for 24 years.  She has been coaching on finances and families for over 30 years.

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Transcription*

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:20) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy.

I first met Markie Castle through a local mom's group that was gathering at a church, and she was the speaker.

I was drawn to her sense of humor, her storytelling, and her wise practices. Her practical applications that she's going to explain near the end of this episode are practices that my husband Mark and I plan to implement beginning today. I'm so excited to share all of that with each of us listening now.

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Markie.

Markie Castle: (1:21 - 1:22) It's a pleasure to be here.

Laura Dugger: (1:22 - 1:34) Well, will you just start us off by sharing more about your family and, specifically, the parenting piece that you say you got right by intentionally focusing on it?

Markie Castle: (1:35 - 4:13) I'd love to. I am incredibly blessed to be married to my husband, Bob, and we had three children that blessed us with wonderful wives and grandchildren. My husband and I started our marriage with him in school and me on a beginning teaching salary.

Today's dollars, it would be worth about $38,000. The two of us were living on $38,000 a year with him in school at the U of I and paying significant tuition. We were paying the tuition as well as supporting ourselves on that salary.

We were blessed to have a son three years later and then another son two years after that. My husband was holding a two-year-old and a two-week-old in his cap and gown. I remember showing our three sons’ pictures of us saying, don't do this.

We supported ourselves entirely. We also did not see that we were in dire straits. We made my salary work by living in small apartments.

With one landlord, we made an agreement with him that we would do extra work around the property for a deduction in rent. We just made it work. We never saw any of this as a negative.

We also did not see that putting purchases on a credit card that we could not pay off at the end of the month as an option. We were happy where we were at and we loved it. My husband got a job and we moved out of the area.

We were at the time in Champaign-Urbana area. We moved to the Peoria area. We had a third son, which gave us three children in four years.

We still saw the need to keep our budget under control. Our meals were determined by what was on sale, what we had coupons for. Clothes were only bought on sale or from consignment shops.

Again, we never saw credit card debt as an option. If we didn't have the money, we didn't buy it. We wanted to raise our children to have a respect for money and to have an awareness of contentment.

We also wanted to have them experience the joy of having money to give away. This is what helped us. This is how we felt and we wanted to share that with our sons.

Laura Dugger: (4:14 - 4:37) I love that and I can just imagine all of the character building that comes out of really seeking to be wise stewards of what the Lord's entrusted to you. I'm wondering if you had some guiding scriptures on this topic of finances that really gave you insight into godly wisdom rather than the worldly kind.

Markie Castle: (4:38 - 9:05) As we know, besides love, money is written more in the Bible than anything else. It is so wise to go to the Bible for this. Luke 14:28 is such a good verse for a base.

It says, “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won't you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?” This is stating that we should budget our money and plan before we build a tower or buy a car or even buy a new blouse that you may want.

Another verse, 1Timothy 6:6-10 speaks to another extremely important part of leading a God-centered life, being content. It states, “But godliness with contentment is great gain for we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Some people eager for money have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.”

It reminds us of where our minds should be. We have heard many talks on finances, budgeting, etc. Very little time, if any, is spent on being content.

Even in the Christian financial counseling speakers, they do not spend time on this. Not only is it scriptural, it is something that makes budgeting and spending so much easier. If you are content, you don't feel that need to spend and let alone overspend.

It just makes budgeting so much easier. Matthew 6:24 is very blunt to the point. It says, “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”

It's not just what you have in your bank account. It's are we serving the Lord or are we serving money by needing a bigger house or whatever. Serving money over God can mean so many things. It can mean making secret purchases that you are hiding from your spouse.

I had a friend who used to have her sister buy her shoes that she wanted. And then she would bring them into the house without her husband knowing. But she had her sister buy it so her husband didn't see it on the credit card.

Or it can mean buying a brand-new car you can't afford and you go into debt for it. There is scripture that addresses this also in Romans 13:8 states, “Owe no one anything except to love each other.” And Proverbs 22:7 states, “The borrower is the slave of the lender.”

This is not to say a person should never have a loan. We needed a loan for our house. It was a smart move because we would have just paid rent forever.

But we needed a house and at the time we didn't have money for a house. Especially since my husband just got out of school. But when we were going looking at houses, the realtor said, “But you can afford this.”

And it was a much bigger house than we needed. And we said, “No, we don't need this.” “Yes, but you can get this.”

“Yes, I know, but this one's just fine.” We bought a house that we were able to pay off quickly. And we were very happy with it.

Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:30) I love hearing how you've applied scripture to your own lives, because really the ones that you shared, those are so practical and actionable. And we didn't even scratch the surface of all, like you said, that the Bible has to speak about money. But if you kind of had to boil it down, what would you say is one key to managing our personal relationship with finances?

Markie Castle: (9:30 - 13:58) I truly, truly believe that being content is truly key. It's so easy to become frustrated and discouraged with what you have. And many, many people watch HGTV.

And I personally love it. There are times that I cannot watch HGTV because I start wanting this or wanting that. When I watch it, it makes me start thinking if I only had a bigger kitchen or buying new furniture would transform this room.

All of these things can distract us into thinking about all the things I don't have, rather than seeing the things I do have. It can be a very dark road. But there's ways of overcoming that too.

I love for people to write down things that you do have, especially the important things like your family, your friends, your church community. Those are the things that are far more important than a bigger kitchen. I know for me, our house, when I moved into our house, I didn't even see our house when we purchased it because we thought we'd only be here three to four years max.

So, I figured three to four years, I don't need to see a house. I wanted it in a certain area and I needed four bedrooms for all of us. And that was about it.

Well, I knew I'd be here three to four years. And I think we're coming up to 25 years in August of being here. God had other plans for us.

And that was it. The kitchen is not what I would have chosen. It's rather small.

And do you know when I get most frustrated is when our family is over and we have 20 people and they're all in the kitchen. And I've got all these grandkids running around getting in the way. And I get frustrated over the smaller kitchen.

Think about it. I have my family here making memories. It's wonderful.

I'll take a small kitchen with all my family before I take a big kitchen without them. It was interesting. I taught at ICC.

And I walked into class one time and all the students were talking about how little they had, how poor they were. And I just listened to them for a while. And they were saying they didn't have any money.

And I said, “I don't mean to brag, but I am really, really wealthy.” And they looked and they said, “Really?” And I said, “Yeah, really wealthy.”

And he said, “Must be nice.” I said, “Yeah, it really is.” I said, “Do you realize that my husband and I, we have two cars?”

And they kind of looked at me and they said, “Yeah.” I said, “No, no, no, no. Do you understand that when I walk into my house, I have heat in the winter?

And, and air conditioning in the summer.” And they kind of looked at me and go, “Yeah.” And I said, “And I can go to this faucet and I can turn this handle and fresh water comes out.”

They all looked and said, “Yeah.” And I said, “That is how wealthy I am.” And they all kind of looked and they said, “We get it.”

And we are very wealthy in this country. We are very wealthy. See, having what you have could be seen as extremely wealthy in many countries.

Even when it's their norm. But with war-torn countries, it's even worse. It's just all about perspective.

Laura Dugger: (13:58 - 14:10) Well, I think you're highlighting the keys to contentment. It's all about perspective and also gratitude. How would you define stewardship?

Markie Castle: (14:11 - 14:19) I would just say it's taking great care of what God has given us and using it for his glory.

Laura Dugger: (14:19 - 14:27) Well, and what has been the most unexpected benefit of coaching your sons on wise financial stewardship?

Markie Castle: (14:28 - 17:52) That is such a great question. I would say the independence that they had as teenagers and adults. It was incredible to see how they were independent with money and other ways because of it.

Each son also married women who were financially aware. We never really talked about that. When our children got married, we had one stipulation that they married a believer for us to bless the marriage.

But it was amazing that they all married women who were financially conservative. We have never had any trouble or issues with any of our children with money. I know that some people will say, you never lend relatives money, you give it to them because you know you'll never get it back.

Well, we have lent our kids money for certain predicaments when they first started off and they started paying us back immediately. There's a lot of talk about whether you should let your children move back into your house. Now, I know people have said, “Nope, once my kids are gone, they're gone.”

And I don't think that's very loving. I think that anybody is allowed back, you know, if they need to come back and live with us, even if it's somebody in our church family, they would be welcomed. All three of our boys at some point came back to live with us for a while for different reasons.

And we actually charged them rent. And they were very good with that. In fact, they liked it because then they weren't freeloading.

Now, they didn't know it at the time, but we took their rent and put it away and kept it separately. And then when they moved out, they had a nice little sum there that they could use for a down payment for their house or for moving costs or whatever. I think it's important to watch your children grow, to give them.

And these are the things that we have seen that we didn't expect. All of our boys are very financially secure. And they only have mortgage debt, which they are all paying off quicker than what was scheduled.

And this is just a mindset. They are not suffering because they don't have the new car. In fact, our one son and his wife, they bought our old van 10 years ago, and they still have it.

They're at 195,000 miles on the car. Now, I think she wears this like a badge of honor. She's going to make it to 200,000.

They have been putting money away for a new car. They have enough money to buy a new car, but they're going to wait until they need it. And when they need it, they're going to be able to go in and say, here is the money for the car.

I don't need a loan. Those are the things that kind of surprised me.

Laura Dugger: (17:53 - 17:58) I think oftentimes there's a lot of joy when we have limits.

Markie Castle: (17:59 - 18:04) Exactly. I agree with you. It does give you joy to know that you have that freedom.

Laura Dugger: (18:06 - 18:22) Well, and we've spoken kind of about big picture, and I'd love to move in the funnel now down to actionable and practical. So, when you look back, how old were your children when you and Bob began training them on finances?

Markie Castle: (18:24 - 19:08) Truly, as soon as our children understood the meaning of money, we started. We started our oldest son when he was five years old by giving him allowance. The others started when they were four because they saw what was happening with the older child.

And I know a lot of people relate to this and they wanted to be a part of it. You know, your younger ones sometimes learn faster because of the older ones. It was important to start when they were wanting things at the stores, whether it was toys or candy at the checkout aisle, etc.

They needed an awareness that everything costs money and they couldn't have everything.

Laura Dugger: (19:09 - 19:32) Well, and I remember you coming to speak to our mom’s group one time. And even if somebody is wondering, well, how do I keep this fair between children? You even had a solution for that because with your kids at the different ages, I remember you saying you started them with one dollar per year old they were per week.

So, the four-year-old only made four dollars for the five-year-old made five.

Markie Castle: (19:33 - 21:21) That's right. Well, and it's funny you say about the fairness. Even when our children, so we had three boys, they were all two years apart, so they were really involved with one another.

They were great friends. But I remember going to my husband's mom was watching our children when we ran to get something to do a few errands. And we came back with a pair of shoes that our oldest child needed.

And she looked at us and said she didn't get anything for the other boys. And I said, but they didn't need new shoes and they don't need anything. And she goes, but you can't bring something in for one child without bringing in something for the others.

And I reiterated, but they didn't need anything. And do you know what? Our boys, we never thought anything of that.

Our boys have never said, well, why didn't I get anything? And if they did, we'd say, “Well, you didn't need this or you didn't need that.” Our children never counted what the other ones have.

Now saying that when it came to the birthdays, we gave the same monetary value to all of them when it came to Christmas, when it came to things. But when it really came to that, one son needed a pair of shoes, but the others didn't. We didn't go out and get shoes for all of them.

And they just were raised with that. And to this day, they all know that it all comes out fairly in the end. You know, we don't bring home things just for one, the same child every time.

Does that make sense?

Laura Dugger: (21:21 - 21:32) Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate that perspective. I'm also curious, were there any other memorable phrases you and your husband taught your children?

Markie Castle: (21:33 - 26:37) You know, there were many. One of the things we had said to them was we can afford anything. But we can't afford everything.

So, we would impress upon them how fortunate we were to afford things. But we certainly can't afford everything. We had friends who would never purchase soda and we did the same thing.

But they really like to travel and the kids like to travel. And so, they wouldn't buy a soda in a restaurant or buy a snack at the mall because they wanted to travel. And they would ask their kids, you know, would you rather purchase a soda or snack now or enjoy the soda or snack in Europe?

And it made the kids think. OK, so again, this is all in what you choose. I was listening to someone at a talk and actually at a moment at our church that said, “You know, what could you save if you didn't get your daily latte from Starbucks?”

And I'm thinking, OK, and his point was at six dollars per drink. You could say. And I figured this out, two thousand one hundred and eighty-four dollars per year.

After two years, you could have enough money to go to Hawaii. Now, that's great. This particular person loves to travel and he doesn't like coffee.

So, to him, it was a no brainer. But if someone doesn't like to travel. But enjoys that daily vacation of going to Starbucks.

This may be the one they would choose. So, we're all different in what we like and what we want. But.

The important thing is, is that you're not adding this to a debt that you're paying 24 percent interest because that six dollar cup of coffee is actually going to cost you much more than the six dollars. Also, I was teaching a group of nearly married couples about finances and. Someone brought up that they can't afford a date night.

I mean, after babysitting, after dinner at the restaurant, etc. they can't afford that. And babysitting nowadays is ridiculously expensive. And another couple said that they have date nights every other week.

What they do is they trade off with another couple for babysitting and they pack a dinner and go on a picnic. So, basically, their date night costs them nothing. Not being able to afford an expensive dinner for a date night.

That puts you in a mindset that you're doing without. Instead, look at what you have. You know, taking a hike.

Visiting a museum on a free day. Getting a membership to places that you could then feel like you're going for free. Walking along the river.

All of these are wonderful ways to have a date night. My husband and I would have a date night in our home. We would feed the boys their favorite chicken nuggets and macaroni and cheese.

And we put them to bed. We would then, I would get out and have tablecloth and have candlelight. And we would have a quiet adult meal by candlelight.

It was a wonderful date night. And it cost us nothing. Now, where we were, we could not afford babysitting.

And we did not have people who could babysit. We didn't have a community that we could share babysitting. We did find that as the kids got older.

And we utilized that, which was wonderful. We used to share a Friday night with a family. This is when the kids were a little older.

And we would switch with them. Every other Friday night, we would switch kids. We would take their kids for one of the Fridays.

And then two weeks later, they would take our kids. And they took them overnight. So, we had, you know, Friday evening and Saturday morning.

And it cost us nothing. And the joy of that was when we took their kids, it was a blast. Because we always planned on doing extra special things.

Because it was like one big party. It worked very well. And we were able to have free babysitting just because we exchanged.

As opposed to paying for a babysitter.

Laura Dugger: (26:38 - 29:02) And I love the creativity. How you problem solved that to still go for your date night. Because that was a value.

And I think you're empowering all of us that these options are possible. And we do have a choice in this situation. And then also the reality that we're going to operate within the reality of trade-offs.

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And as you and Bob continued to train your children with finances, how did you see this play out with each of their different personalities?

Markie Castle: (29:04 - 32:55) Although we raised our boys within the same manner, we were blessed with three totally different children. Totally. When it came to money, one was a saver, one was a spender, and one was a minimalist.

And although they all were different, they all needed the structure of financial awareness. So, our eldest wanted to save every dime that he was given. And you know what?

He's still that way. He wants to save, save, save, save, save. Our middle child would spend every dime that he would receive.

It would not be in his pocket for more than a couple of minutes. Then our youngest child didn't care about buying anything, which was very different from the saver. He was just a minimalist.

I don't need anything. It just doesn't matter. And he is still that way.

So, our spender needed to learn the importance of budgeting and saving. They all needed to learn it, but it was extremely important for him. And he did learn.

When he was about 10 or 11, he lost some money for not doing certain chores. And he looked at us and said, the only reason you had children was to make money. My husband and I were literally speechless.

We kind of just looked at him and we didn't know what to say. And then he just looked at us after a couple of moments and he said, that's the stupidest thing I've ever said. And yep, we all had a good laugh.

He did learn to budget and it was interesting. So, when he was in high school and starting to date, he took this girl that he wound up dating for several years. And he was going to go to the movies and he was a gentleman.

He was absolutely a gentleman. And they walked into the movies and he paid for the movies because that's what you do. And then as they were walking past the concession stand, he said, “Well, do you want popcorn?”

And she said, “Oh, that'd be nice.” And he said, “Okay, well, you're going to need to get it yourself. I'm not paying those prices.”

And she was kind of, ”Okay.” Now we needed to teach him a little bit more about dating with that. But it was like he paid for the movies.

He wasn't going to pay $10 for a box of popcorn. So, he had learned the value of money. When you can get into the movie for less money than a box of popcorn, there's something to be thought about that.

I am happy to say that while he did not marry her, but I'm happy to say that he did marry someone and he learned to budget. And she is all about budget, budget, budget. But that also means that they are able to enjoy, enjoy, enjoy.

I think budget gets a really bad name because you think that means that you can't buy things if you budget. And I see it as the exact opposite. If I budget $50 for entertainment, for the month, for the week, for whatever, you can enjoy having that entertainment because that's money that is free and clear for you to use.

Laura Dugger: (32:56 - 33:14) Yeah, I'm with you on that too, because I do think that self-control that really is a fruit of the spirit, but that discipline and self-control leads to freedom eventually. And so, again, those limits provide joy and freedom, which is counterintuitive, but the Lord's economy.

Markie Castle: (33:14 - 33:34) That's right. But once you do it, you realize, and we have seen this happen, that they go, “Oh, I feel better about going to the movies because it's already been planned, which goes back to when you build a tower, you should plan that.”

Laura Dugger: (33:35 - 33:43) You've mentioned that you did offer an allowance. So, what were your allowance or commission guidelines?

Markie Castle: (33:44 - 35:58) So, there's many trains of thought with this. We felt that there were certain chores that needed to be done as part of the household. So, making your bed, setting the table, helping with dinner, cleaning up the dishes, sweeping the floor.

Obviously, our children were expected to do more as they got older. I would give them opportunities, though, to do over and beyond, and then they could make extra money. So, there were certain expectations on a daily basis, and that was part of being part of the household, being part of the family.

But to go over and beyond would give us the time. Now, I do know some people pay for everything that they do, and I understand where they're coming from with that, but then they may choose not to make their bed or choose not to set the table because they don't want the money, but then other people need the table to be set. So, that can cause issues, too.

We never, when it came to grades, I know that's something that's talked about, we never paid for certain grades in school. We did allow them, you know, at the time it was, well, if you get this many A's, you can get a pizza or something, you know, from Pizza Hut or something. We would do that, but we never paid for specific grades for our kids.

There was an expectation that they would do well, not for the money. But we would all go out and celebrate when they all had good report cards. So, I know that there's different trains of thought with that.

You know, there are some others who will put a price on certain chores and have the allowance reflect that money they made. Our boys received their allowance, but there were times that we charged them when we needed to do their chore, like pick up their clothes in the bathroom after they've been asked to do so. So, if we did something, we kind of charged them for it.

And that's when our son said, well, you just had children to make money.

Laura Dugger: (35:59 - 37:14) Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well.

If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.

With our family, our daughters currently are nine, eight, six, and four. And so, they have the understanding of give, save, spend. But just this summer, our sweet and very generous neighbor, Jillian, James and Jillian, have hired our oldest two, Sayla and Shiloh, to water their plants while they're traveling. And so, this is their first paid job opportunity.

And so, my plan with my husband is to train our girls with this podcast. And there's a question I want to ask you next that I believe will even guide us with our conversation and how to train them. So, when your children were earning money or making this allowance, even from a young age, how did you teach them to split their money?

Markie Castle: (37:16 - 42:21) So, we set up our allowance that they were given one-dollar times their age, which you had alluded to early on. So, each week, a five-year-old would get five dollars a week, which sounds like a lot, right? Or a ten-year-old would get ten dollars.

And that sounds awesome, right? But it was broken down. So, we first would take ten percent which goes to charity.

We wanted to teach the children about tithing. And that was the first. The next, we had ten percent that was taken for taxes.

And we used that for family fun night, which made those nights special to them. Now, what they learned from having their taxes taken, when they went to get their first job, like when they were 16 or 17, and our oldest son got a job at the Zoli's when it was there. And he was not in shock when he was given his paycheck and taxes were taken out.

He understood that. All his other friends were complaining about them taking it. But our children knew there were taxes, and taxes went for the good of the community.

We also took ten percent for retirement. And that was just good habits to form. We kept it.

We kept account of how much it was. And when they got out of college, we gave them their retirement. Wow.

Now in their 30s, they have a financial guy and he is shocked at how set our children are for the future. Then 20 percent went to college. Once again, this was kind of a mindset.

Now, if you don't think your children are going to go to college, I would still recommend at least going to community college or a trade or whatever. We saved this and gave it to them to put towards their expenses when they went to college. So, we literally gave them their money and said, this is what you have saved over all these years.

Now you have 50 percent left. So, 25 percent went to savings. And they had to put this in a separate category, and they needed to buy something with it that was $25 or more.

We wanted them to learn how to save up for that special whatever they wanted. They could spend that on whatever. So, that would make for a five-year-old, fifty cents went to church, fifty cents for taxes, fifty cents for retirement, a dollar for college, a dollar twenty-five for savings.

And what they got at the end, they got a dollar twenty-five for the week, which is a good amount for a five-year-old. But let me just say, when I say so they can spend it, if you're the parent, it is okay to say no to what they are purchasing. Our middle son at a point, now he was older, but he wanted to get 10 piercings in one ear.

We didn't think this was a wise decision, not all at the same time. He respectfully stated that he was old enough that he didn't need our permission and that he could pay for it. Now, mind you, he was living with us at the time, but he said he didn't need our permission.

And he said it respectfully. We did tell him no, and that as long as he was living with us, reaping the benefits of our house, utilities, food, vacations, he still needs to abide by our parental decisions. And you know what?

It wasn't an issue. He said, okay. And when he was on his own, you know what?

He had become wiser over those couple of years and he didn't do it. So, it's okay to say no to some things. And saying that, doing this allowance, it makes going places so much nicer.

I never said no to my kids. And it was funny because when we talk about moms’ groups or whatever, I said, “Oh, I never tell my children no. They can have, you know, what they asked me for things, I never tell them no.”

And they go, “Really?” And I said, “Yeah.” I'd say, “Do you have the money for it?”

Oh, okay. And then it wasn't me saying no. They needed to make that decision.

This sounds so negative and it truly is not. Our boys took great pride in paying for their own things. I mean, they used discernment in their choices.

And they took great care of those toys that they bought. There was a sense of ownership and responsibility to it. This was not negative.

It was truly positive and taught them much more than just about money.

Laura Dugger: (42:22 - 42:41) Well, and it's such a great real-world experience. I've never heard someone teach like this before, where you broke it down so specifically. But really, it reflected how they would handle money as adults.

And so, I think it's brilliant. And I'm wondering if you have any other practical recommendations that we haven't covered yet.

Markie Castle: (42:43 - 45:07) I would give a few. So, in their allowance, I put the cash in clear containers labeled so that they could see what they had. When they were older, we moved it to paper because I wanted them to be taught about how banks work.

Another couple of things. We never had issues going through candy aisles or going to events. We would pay for the tickets.

If they wanted to buy a snack like at Six Flags or something, they could. But they'd have to use their own money. Now, we're not cruel.

We would buy lunch for them. But if they wanted that $10 soft pretzel, they needed to buy it. Another thing, if they received money for a birthday gift, we felt that that was all theirs to spend.

Because to me, that gift, you know, if they were given a toy, we wouldn't split that toy up and give 10% to charity. So, they could keep all the money and go and buy what they wanted. One other thing, and some people may find this controversial, but I would suggest getting a credit card for your children as soon as you can while they are living with you.

And then you can give them the guidance that they need. Our son learned from an early age that you only charge items that you know you will be able to pay off at the end of the month. A debit card is good too, that they need to have that money in there.

But we liked setting the habit of paying off the credit card every month. A debit card would say, you can't slide this card unless you have that money in the bank. Either way, I would highly recommend you get your children something so you can give them the guidance of how to use it.

We knew people who wouldn't allow their children to date until they were 18. And my thought was, I don't want to give my children the go ahead to date when they go off to college. I wanted to be able to guide them.

So, we said, when you're 16, you can date. And then we were able to guide them and teach them along the way.

Laura Dugger: (45:08 - 45:14) That's so good. And can you think of anything else that you want to make sure we don't overlook today?

Markie Castle: (45:15 - 45:51) After counseling and mentoring many couples who have asked us for help, I realized that financial difficulties and marriage issues go hand in hand. That puts a stress in a marriage that comes out in other ways. If someone is having financial issues, you need to get help.

I would also say to teach your children so they are raised with a God-honoring respect for money. 1 Timothy 6:10 doesn't state that money is the root of all evil. It states that “the love of money is the root of all evil.”

Laura Dugger: (45:52 - 45:59) Well, I love all of the practical tips you've shared. And do you have any other favorite stories that come to mind?

Markie Castle: (46:00 - 48:23) One that is particularly close to me is we had very, very close friends who actually my husband worked under him for many years. But we were very close. And in fact, we moved together and with my husband's job and very close.

He was an exec, a cat, very high up. And making more money was the most important thing. Climbing that corporate ladder.

And suddenly he just realized how unhappy he was. He also put his children at bay because he worked so much. He needed to have the better cars, the better house, the better everything.

And one evening, there's a knock at the door. We weren't expecting him. And they were just standing there.

And he just said, “Can we talk?” And he came in and he looked at us and said, “When is enough??” And he had tears in his eyes.

And he knew that money was driving him at the cost of his marriage, although they were still together, but at the cost of the relationship with his children. And he said, “When is enough? And we talked to him.

We again shared the gospel, which we had shared before. And when you have Christ in your life, for me, that's enough. That's all I need is Christ.

He turned his life over to the Lord. He became a believer. He quit his job, which he had planned on.

And financially, he was great. And what he does now, he does a lot of mission work. He goes to different places that have been hit by a tornado.

And he's with the group that goes all over taking care of other people. And he is far, far wealthier than he ever was.

Laura Dugger: (48:24 - 48:48) Wow, Markie, that is so powerful. And what an incredible story to start to close our time together with. But I still have one final question for you, because our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.

And so, this is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?

Markie Castle: (48:49 - 49:28) I would say beware of giving your children everything they want. And everything you think they need. Wanting is a great lesson to learn.

And as we've been told in the Bible, patience is a virtue. Having children earning their own money and spending it teaches them independence and develops them to be adults who are secure with the choices they have learned to make. This is far more than just teaching them about money.

Much more is developed within them.

Laura Dugger: (49:28 - 50:00) That is so good. And truly, Markie, this conversation, I can't wait to share it with all of our girls, with Isla and Kessler, too, being even just six and four. I think you have so many helpful practical takeaways.

And you're such a gifted teacher. So, it's been a joy to learn from you during this time. So, thank you, not only for applying scriptures to the way you interact with finances, but thank you for also sharing those applications with us today.

And thank you for being my guest.

Markie Castle: (50:01 - 50:10) Laura, it's truly been my pleasure. I appreciate you and I appreciate how God-centered you are and with this podcast.

Laura Dugger: (50:11 - 53:29) Wow, thank you so much. That encouragement means a lot. One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

273. Wise Living: Why to Get Outside and Travel and Read Aloud with Amber O'Neal Johnston

“Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” James 1:17 NIV

*Transcription Below*

Amber O’Neal Johnston is an author, speaker, and Charlotte Mason homeschooling mom who blends life-giving books and a culturally rich environment for her four children and others seeking to do the same. She recommends we offer children opportunities to see themselves and others reflected in their lessons, especially throughout their books, and she’s known for sharing literary “mirrors and windows” on HeritageMom.com and @heritagemomblog. Amber is also the author of Soul School: Taking Kids on a Joy-Filled Journey Through the Heart of Black American Culture and A Place to Belong, a guide for families of all backgrounds on raising kids to celebrate their heritage, community, and the world.

www.HeritageMom.com

www.SoulSchoolBook.com

www.APlaceToBelongBook.com

www.instagram.com/heritagemomblog

www.facebook.com/heritagemomblog

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

Questions that We Discussed:

Other Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:

53 Practical Life Tips with Blogger, Rach Kincaid

57 Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee

82 Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller

84 Ordering Your Priorities with Kat Lee

103 Making Family Memories with Jessica Smartt

200 Planting Seeds of Faith in Our Children with Courtney DeFeo

204 Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: A Delectable Education with Emily Kiser

207 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof

212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee

253 Low Tech Parenting with Erin Loechner

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Transcription*

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:01) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Inc. in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman's in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LehmanGM.com.

Amber O'Neal Johnston is my fascinating guest for today. She's an author and speaker and coach and she's just chosen to live a very wise life as a wife and mother, and I think you're going to enjoy gleaning practical tips such as the benefits of getting our children out in nature regardless of their age. She has teens and makes this super practical for things that they would enjoy too, and she shares these incredible benefits of what happens when we simply step outdoors. She's also going to share approachable ways to introduce our family to great art and other cultures, and she gives us a fabulous book list, so, make sure you stay tuned through the end of the episode so that you can see some of the top books that she recommends. Finally, if you don't have a copy of her own latest release entitled Soul School, I highly recommend you purchase that today. Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Amber.

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (2:02 - 2:04) Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

Laura Dugger: (2:04 - 2:14) Well, I'd love for you just to start us off and introduce us to your family, and will you just share a glimpse of your values and lifestyle?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (2:15 - 3:48) Absolutely. So, I live outside of Atlanta, Georgia with my husband Scott and our four children. We are just entering birthday season, but shortly they will be 16, 14, 12, and 10. The girls are the two oldest. The boys are the two youngest, and they've been homeschooled from the beginning, so, we're a homeschooling family. I'm originally from Illinois. My husband's originally from Ohio, but we met here in Atlanta at the High Museum of Art, which is really special. We are art loving, you know, fine arts loving, liberal arts loving family, and so, the idea that we met at the museum, I will just cherish that forever. I came to, before homeschooling, I was a stay-at-home mom, and prior to having children, I have an MBA, and I worked in corporate America in like marketing and advertising, and Scott comes from a similar background with the MBA, and he was doing work in that area too, so, we had that as a connection point, but I have always stayed home with the kids, and you know, our values are rooted in our Christian faith, and we're an African-American family, and so, we have values and cultural aspects that enter our home through that avenue as well. We are world travelers, so, we enjoy that as part of who we are, and I'm an author and a speaker, and I'm just a very happy homeschooler.

Laura Dugger: (3:48 - 4:12) I love that, and it sounds like such a rich and abundant life, and there's two little connections that I have to go back to. My husband and I had a date at that same museum. I love that you met your husband there. Oh wow, that's wild! And so, we met when we were in Atlanta, but live in Illinois now, so, which part of Illinois were you originally from?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (4:12 - 4:33) I'm from Elgin, Illinois. It's out past O'Hare Airport, and I was born and raised there. My parents were both public school principals there. My dad was principal of Elgin High, and there's actually an elementary school, Ron O'Neal Elementary School in Elgin, named after my father, so, that is where I'm from.

Laura Dugger: (4:33 - 4:46) Wow, okay, so, then even with that piece, your father being a principal, and then you said you've homeschooled since the beginning. Did you always anticipate you would homeschool, or what was your journey into that?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (4:47 - 7:15) Oh my gosh, never, and it's both of my parents were principals, so, that's wild. My grandfather was an elected school board official. My sister was an elected school board official, so, public school is just, you know, in my blood from the very beginning, and that's what I assumed I would do for my kids at first. Once Scott and I got married, and we had discussed it, we decided that I would stay home when they were little, and when they were old enough to go to school, I would go back to work, and my salary would pay for private Christian school tuition, and as the years, you know, months really came to fruition for my oldest, my husband started backpedaling, and he started talking this crazy talk about homeschooling. I'm like, that's a switcheroo for you. What are you talking about? I was like, that's weird. I don't want to do that. I don't feel called to do that. That does not seem like a comfortable space for me. I don't want my kids to endure that, and ultimately, I lacked confidence in that. I couldn't even articulate it. It felt scary, terrifying. Why would I take something so weighty into my own hands, and Scott was very persistent, and I can't even explain why he was so persistent about it, but I think to me, I feel like it was planted in him by the Lord, and he felt that this was the way he wanted to lead his family, and he did it so graciously because I was very resistant. He asked, would you please try it for one year, and if you are unhappy, you don't think it's right. I'll never ask you about it again, and that gave me a softer place to land where I felt like it wasn't signing up for a long-term commitment because I knew I was going to hate it, and I said, sure. I will do that, and oh, my gosh. It was the most amazing year, and I laugh now because my daughter was four, so, she's like four and turned five during that year, and so, she was so young, and people were like, well, what were you really doing, but I took it so seriously. I was doing all things, and I joined a homeschool support group, and I was reading about it, and I realized on Friday, I'm a stay-at-home mom, and on Monday, I took on this identity of a homeschooling mom, and it's just been a beautiful journey for us. I'm so thankful that the Lord led Scott in that way. He knew what was right, not just for our children, but for me, too, when I had no vision for it, and so, I'm just, you know, very grateful.

Laura Dugger: (7:16 - 7:30) I love that story. That's such an encouragement, and, okay, your oldest is turning 16, so, when you look back, what would you say has helped shape your children's character the most?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (7:32 - 9:29) Well, I think the time that we've all had to spend together, like intense amounts of time, so, not just quality time or quantity time, but both, and I think that there's nothing else I could have done that could replace that, so, I think that's one of the things. I think my own acceptance of the divine nature of me being their mother and those being my children, and really that leading me to embrace my mother's intuition, which is something that I was hesitant for at first because there are so many experts, and surely they know so much more than me, and that's not to say that that's not important. I read so widely. I'm always reading expert ideas and views, but what I realized is that those things can help me as tools. They can mentor me, but they can't master me because the master has already appointed me as the perfect mom for these children, and nobody knows them, the little tiny details of them that nobody knows more than me, and so, when I leaned into that and I'm like, yeah, this says this online, this book said that, this thing says that, I can take what I can from those, but ultimately I feel the spirit telling me and leading me in this way with these children, and when I really leaned into that, I have a right to do that. I am their mother. That revolutionized things, and I think that's what's helped shape my children's character the most is my willingness to lean into how I'm led to lead them, and so, that's been a motherhood journey for me, and I hope that it's a legacy that I leave with my children.

Laura Dugger: (9:31 - 9:53) And do you have any specific stories that come to mind that were examples of that mother's intuition, something that really I think it is such a gift from the Lord and that the Holy Spirit speaks to us in some unique way as mothers to be in tune with our kids, so, is there a time that it really benefited them when you exercised your mother's intuition?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (9:53 - 12:42) Well, there was one time with my third, my son, my oldest son, his name is Beckett, and he was in the high chair eating while I was braiding my daughter's hair, and I heard him start making like these really weird noises, and I looked over and it was like he was choking and gagging, and I run over, and but he seemed fine, but then he would do it again, and he started sweating, and you know today I really would say, you should call 9-1-1, but I didn't, I threw all the kids in the car, and I rushed to the ER, and when we got there he wasn't choking anymore, he wasn't sweating, they did his vitals and everything, and they said, well mom, whatever happened passed, he's fine, and you guys can go home, and I was like, no, he's not fine, I'm looking at him, he's not my little boy, his vitals are checking out, but he's not looking at me the way he normally looks at me, he's not interacting with me, the little funny things that I can make him smile all the time, he's not responding to them, and so, like, I know you have your tests, but like my, I'm telling you something's wrong with my little boy, so, they have a doctor, he comes in to tell me everything's fine, and he's sending me home, and so, I was like, well I'm not leaving, I'll just spend the night in the ER then with all my kids, because I know something's wrong, and the doctor, who's this older man, he turns to me, he looks me in my eyes, and he says, you know, in all my years of medical training, there's something that they never told us, but something I've learned throughout my career, never doubt a mother's intuition, and he said, we'll take him and run more tests, and they took Beckett back to run more tests, and they came back and said, you were right, he has swallowed a coin, and it's like just teetering on the precipice, and so, at times it was blocking his airway, and at times it was shifted a little bit, and we have to go in immediately and get it, and that could have choked him, if you had just gone home and put him down to bed, and so, in that story, I took away two things, one, that I am his mother, and I don't care what the test says, or what the data says, or what the news, or a book, at the end of the day, I knew that something was wrong with my boy, the other thing is the graciousness of that doctor, to see my humanity and my personhood beyond just the insurance payment, or protocol, or whatever, it let me know that like there's something powerful about letting other people know that you see them, and that you are connected to them, as another part of God's creation, like he respected me on that level, so.

Laura Dugger: (12:43 - 13:35) That is incredible, I'm so grateful that that story has a happy ending, and that you were assertive to say that, I think sometimes as women, probably especially as Christian women, we can think, oh I want to be nice, or not push back on somebody, but I love that you were assertive, it was what was in your child's best interest, and like you highlighted, that doctor's humility is admirable, but Amber, you mentioned too that you're a writer, and you contribute a lot to things like the Wild and Free bundles, and I was always struck by the way that you would be out in nature, and there's so much to learn, so, if you had to boil it down, what wisdom would you have to share from what you've learned about the importance of getting our kids and ourselves outdoors into nature?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (13:36 - 16:49) Yeah, that's so funny, I love that you asked me that, because I like to tell people I was raised in the air conditioning, and so, there is no one who began motherhood further away from nature and being outdoors than me, like, and I can look back at those early days of like, I knew you could take your kids to the playground, and I did do that, but like what else would you do outside, you know, and people would be like, oh we went hiking on this trail, and I was like, where did you get on it, like where do you find a trailhead, like I mean this is back, like this is where I was coming from, and I was just like, and then what would we do, like we just walk, and do we talk about trees, I don't know any trees, I know Christmas trees are evergreens, you know, so, it was just like coming from this very like foundational place where I didn't know anything, but I believed, right, I believed, I somehow inherently believed when I read that being outdoors was important for children, so, I'm reading Charlotte Mason's work, and she's talking about nature study, I'm reading Last Child in the Woods by Louvre, and I'm hearing about this, he calls it a nature deficit disorder, and I'm reading all of these different kind of people who really respected childhood, and personhood, and really wanted the best for children, I'm reading a Christian perspective of the joy in connecting with God's creation, first and foremost, but also this idea of encouraging natural and authentic physical activity, running, climbing, balancing, exploring, developing coordination, and confidence, and the mental health components, you know, reducing stress, and improving mood, and not just for the kids, but my friend from A Thousand Hours Outside, she talks about how the first time she like took her kids out for the whole day, it was for her, because she was going crazy with these all these little kids, and the house, and the bags, and the diaper bag, and the snacks, and she didn't know what else to do, so, she just went outside, and how healing that was, and therapeutic that was for all of them, the idea of curiosity, of fueling curiosity, and creativity, I've never seen my kids come up with the most, I mean, they come up with imaginative things in our house, but outside, the, oh my goodness, the things they come up with, the things they create, and make, and the storytelling that comes out of that, and I think the family bonds, our experiences, it's another way of memory making, I mean, we make memories when we go see plays, and musicals, and travel as well, so, it's not the only way, but it's a strong way of that shared outdoor adventures, so, like a couple weeks ago, we were all whitewater rafting, it's funny, like a lot of funny things happen when you're out there doing crazy stuff, and so, we have a lot of laughter, and we have a lot of inside jokes that come from our time together, so, I think that all of those, it's not just one thing, it's one of those rare things where there are all the pros, and there really are no cons, and so, I intentionally embrace that for my family, even though it's everything that I didn't have growing up.

Laura Dugger: (16:50 - 17:41) Wow, that is so interesting, I love how books have really inspired you to make changes that have benefited your entire family, and I'm thinking back years ago when I was in grad school, studying marriage and family therapy, there was this book that we read, Letters to a Young Therapist, I believe the author is Mary Pipher, and she said something that I found to be very true in my life, she said, from childhood when we all look back, our memories typically boil down to three categories, one is family dinners around the table, the second is traveling with our family, and the third is anytime we were outdoors, and so, I'm wondering that legacy that you're giving your kids, they're going to have an abundance of memories in all three of those buckets.

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (17:42 - 18:29) Yeah, I love that, and I had never read that, it's making me want to go and read her work, but I can't agree more, I mean that's what I've seen anecdotally, at least in my family, and it's definitely been the case for us, I can totally see that, the other thing I love about outdoors too is it's free, you know, so, there have, we've had times of plenty and times of not quite enough financially throughout our journey, due to layoffs, and you know, recessions, and all these different things, but that has been one thing that the travel hasn't always been as consistent as we wanted, but the nature, the time outside has always been accessible, even during COVID, that was accessible to us, so, I love it for that too, but yeah, that's really cool.

Laura Dugger: (18:29 - 18:41) Absolutely, okay, so, you started with, you were getting some inspiration from different books and speakers, but then when did you actually implement this? Do you remember how old your kids were?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (18:42 - 20:11) Right away, so, my oldest was like four, five years old, and we started going outside, now again, we had always been going to the park, so, they had been spending a lot of time outside, but I will say like that's like a very, you know, man-made structures, and you know, I can't think of it, like very cultivated space, so, we weren't spending time in uncultivated space until around there, so, maybe a four-year-old, two-year-old, and infant, and I know they started growing up in that way, and I had kids in an ergo on the back, and I remember hiking with a kid in an ergo on the front, and then snapped another one on the back, and you know, these are memories I have of being outdoors thoroughly by the time the boys were coming along, and I remember the story where we were at a creek, and I looked up for a moment, and just sheer panic that my little boy was gone, he wasn't in my eyesight anymore, and the girls were playing there, and I'm like, you know, and I look, and look, and look, and there's nothing, and no one, and all I can think you sees in the water, and I wasn't paying attention, and my heart's racing, and I'm like, girls, where's your brother? And my daughter says, mommy, he's sleeping on your back. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I just think, like, I was so tired during those years, and I just remember, I would just think, let's just go outside, and some days that's just the most I could come up with, but yeah, I was freaking out, and the little boy was sleeping on my back.

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I'm wondering too, so, when you began, what did you start with? What did you do outside?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (21:51 - 24:13) So, we started with walking, and I also was very verbal about my, what I felt were my inadequacies with friends, and that's why, you know, I can't overemphasize the, I haven't brought that up yet, but the idea of community. You don't need a hundred friends, just a few people who either are doing the same thing as you, have done it, or know you personally so well. But I had a friend who was like this outdoor enthusiast, and I always admired her for that, and she'd be like, oh, I went to the hydrangeas, they're coming out today, and they're gonna bloom for four days, and you know, like, and she would be like, oh, do you want some wild blueberries? And I'd be looking at her with side eye, like, girl, I only eat blueberries from Publix, because how do I know that you know what you're doing? You know, those could be poisonous berries you identified wrong. So, we had this kind of ongoing thing, I just asked her, I was like, hey, could we go outside with you guys sometimes? And she was like, of course. So, our first hike was with her and her kids, and she showed me how to go outside and do nothing. Like, we didn't do anything, we just walked. And the kids let us, you know, they would stop and ponder things and ask questions, which she knew the answers to, but wouldn't answer. So, she was like, well, what do you think? Or that's something cool we can investigate, or whatever. So, I realized, wow, here's this expert naturalist who's not even using her expertise. I don't have any expertise, so I could do the same thing. Well, what do you think about that? So, the kids let us, we stopped when they stopped, we kept going when they kept going. We had plenty of water and snacks, which she had told me, which was important. And that was my first thing. It was a hike. And after that, I only went back to that place by myself with my kids without her, because that was the only trail I knew. I knew where to park and where to go, and I felt confident. And then lo and behold, I run into Charlotte Mason's work, where she talks about returning to the same place throughout the year, and having your kids compare what's happening their season to season. And so, different rationale for why I was doing that. But then I was like, look, there's beauty, even in the simplicity of me not knowing what else to do. So, that's kind of how we got into it. And then I started having more experience and going out and being more adventurous further away from home with my kids.

Laura Dugger: (24:14 - 24:24) Okay, so, then what other ways has it evolved? You mentioned whitewater rafting. So, you've got teens now. What does your time outdoors look like in this phase?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (24:25 - 26:02) So, lots of camping. So, you know, Memorial Day weekend, you know, we were camping in yurts with friends. This past weekend, we camped, we had a big Juneteenth celebration, and then we went camping for Juneteenth weekend. And so, I would say that kayaking, paddle boards, we have paddle boards, we take out fishing, I hate fishing personally, don't like it at all. But two of my kids enjoy fishing. So, I'm there for that. I'll just bring a book or whatever, because it's quite boring to me, but they love it. So, we moved. I mean, how much of a commitment is that we moved to a different house, when we were able to have our whole property is forest floor. So, it's completely shaded and intertwined with trees and plants and a kind of wild scape. And across the road is a lake where the boys can fish and I can call their names for lunch and they can hear me now. I have to yell it loud. It's kind of country. Other people probably like what is going on? I'm like, you know, but they can hear me right there. And so, the creek and just really everything. A lot, a lot of hiking, I will say we live near a mountain and we're in Georgia. So, the North Georgia mountains are not far from us. We have Appalachia or Appalachia, as my friend said, I mispronounce it. And yeah, there's nothing that isn't my one of my first dates with Scott was whitewater rafting. So, we've always kind of embraced that.

Laura Dugger: (26:03 - 26:37) Oh, that's a special way to tie in a married couple memory with your kids and get to pass that along. And water and mountains, those things are, they never get old. But I've heard others even say like, you don't have to take stuff other than water and snacks, like you mentioned, to go outside. But I like the practical tips that sometimes people take art supplies, and they can nature journal or a book to read aloud. Do you have any other practical tips like that, that you would encourage if somebody wanted to get started with this lifestyle?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (26:38 - 28:47) Yeah, I would say, um, we, okay, the best thing I can say is to just try it like I think that oftentimes I know my I'm like this, you want to try to be an expert at something before you actually put it into practice. And the point is, like, we're looking at someone's work or something that they're doing after years that they've been in practice. And then we're expecting to do that from the very beginning. And until we get there, we don't want to do it. So, for example, nature study, nature journaling, I always admired nature journaling. But when you look at people's nature journals that they people who are willing to share, there's usually a reason they're willing to share theirs because it looks beautiful. And mine didn't also look beautiful. But I was still willing to give it a try. And I love that. And I love my kids, what they've worked on. And I cherish all of our early beginning sketches. And quite honestly, I'm still not great. But I think having tools like watercolor pens and water pens where we can do watercolor on the go. And we've done many pictures out by the side of the creek on picnic blankets, especially like my older children while younger people are like, What do I do with these little ones like water, you know, like they love that splashing, making sandcastles and things while I'm painting or doing things watercolors with the with the older ones. And were they museum worthy? No. But there was a lot of enjoyment involved in a skill-based learning. So, I think asking questions and inquiry, using pictures, sure and painting, but also keeping track of things the the date that our cherry blossoms bloom, and our white cherry blossom blooms before the pink one every year and keeping track of that or paying trying to map all of the vegetation in our yard like we are, you know, know which trees what they're called where they come from that takes time. And those are things we've done. It's not like we're only just sitting there barefoot grounding ourselves and forest bathing. You know, we're out there learning as well. And I think that, you know, both are beautiful ways to enter into that.

Laura Dugger: (28:48 - 29:34) I love it. There's so many benefits. And you even mention grounding that helps so much going barefoot with inflammation and different body systems that are reset even by getting out and getting early morning light and the serotonin that's produced that turns into melatonin at night. So, we're happier in the day and sleepier at night, resetting systems in our eyes and like healing our body in different ways to an even how much better outdoor air is for us than indoor air. The benefits just go on and on. So, would you have any to add that either your family has experienced personally, or you've learned about just benefits of getting outdoors?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (29:34 - 31:29) Yeah, I think that one, even, you know, all the things you said, yes, and also the mental clarity. And that's why I don't like being time outdoors, being tied to a negative consequence for academic related behavior. So, the house across the road from ours, you know, I could say ironically, or just be like, God chose to gift us. It's a homeschooling family. They moved in a couple years ago, and they have some kids are some of our kids are similar ages. And our boys are just outside all the time together hours and hours and hours every single day. And I see the difference on days where the weather doesn't permit it or where one family or the other, you know, isn't available. There's a difference in terms of clarity and the work that's happening at the lesson table as well. And this came up, you know, my nephew, you know, they're not homeschooled, and his parents took him on a trip, which caused him to miss a day of school. And he missed an assignment that day, he didn't turn it in. And so, the school then when he got back to school punished him by keeping him indoors for recess. And I was helping, you know, my family craft a note that talks about two things. One, they punished a child for a decision the parents made. And that is grossly unfair, they should be talking to the parents about not missing school, if that's the important thing. And the second thing is, you took away the very thing that allows these children to have what they need to sit quietly and take in, you know, that that's not, that's not how you that's not an appropriate consequence. So, anyway, I feel that the mental clarity beyond the things I would have named the same things you already said, it would be the only other thing that I would bring in and why time outside actually helps us to achieve deeper and broader and more expansive learning when we are inside.

Laura Dugger: (31:29 - 31:54) That's good. And I love how you keep mentioning the piece of community that that's the best way to do this. So, regardless of somebody homeschools, or they don't, how can all of us actually prioritize this? And what's a good, healthy goal for getting started, even as specific as how much time outdoors, how many outdoors or how many days a week should we be outdoors?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (31:55 - 33:01) Yeah, that's, it's so different for every family, I think that you should go just past the point of comfort, you know, for most of us. So, if the point of comfort for you is like 30 minutes a week, then you would start out like aim for an hour a week, you know, 20 minutes, three days, if you're already outside for, you know, 10 hours, a couple hours each day, you know, I would say, maybe shake it up with what you're doing and see what would it be like to go on a really long outdoor excursion on a Saturday, or to take a day off or something like that. So, I don't want to say an exact number, because we're all entering in at a different place. For me, if someone had told me to spend eight hours outside with my kids, when I was first starting, and I'm used to going to playground for 20 minutes, that would have been overwhelming. And I would have been like; there's no way I'm ever gonna do it. So, I think like, just taking it, like, where do I feel most comfortable? And how can I push myself just past that point would be a great place to start and kind of a nice place to always stay? Like, what's the next thing that we can do to lean further into this?

Laura Dugger: (33:02 - 33:15) That's really good, very wise counsel. And Amber, you've mentioned that your family loves to travel. So, will you share any adventures that you've had as a family with world schooling?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (33:16 - 36:20) So, our goal, and it's just a fun thing, you know, I don't know if we'll totally do it, but I think we will, is to have children. So, for us, world schooling is where we're not on vacation, but we're actually deeply immersed in a learning stance in another country, another part of the world. And we're trying to do that on every continent, except Antarctica, before my oldest graduates. So, we have two continents left, we are going to be going to Asia in the fall. So, we'll be taking that one off of our list and for that particular feat. And then her senior year, we'll do Australia and hop over to New Zealand. That's the plan, if it's God's will for us to do that, that's what we would like to do, and that will complete our journey. And then we'll keep traveling, but that was just kind of a fun thing to help lead us, because there are so many places in the world to go, like how do you know? And so, that kind of helped us know, well, let's do this continent, let's do that continent. So, we took our first trip, we spent three months in South America, most of it spent in Bolivia. And I can tell you exactly the kids' ages, because my youngest turned two in Bolivia. So, they were two, four, six, and then one turned eight there. And so, that was, you know, diapers, I had a baby in diapers, a little one in diapers and still nursing when we went on our first trip. And I've never regretted that. People have said, why would you take kids so young? You know, they're not going to remember. And I think a couple thoughts. One, you'd be surprised, they do remember. They may not remember this artifact in some museum, but that's not what we spend most of our time doing. But they remember the people. And we've kept in touch with a lot of the people that we've met in these different countries. And we've even had visitors in our home, staying in our basement apartment that we met abroad. So, they do remember. They remember how things feel and taste more than they remember exactly, like historical markers and things like that. Also, I kind of compare it to like breastfeeding and nursing, like my kids, except for one little boy who held on way too long, but they don't remember that. But I believed that it was something good for them that was forming. It was helping to form who they were, not so much who they were personality wise, but their bodies as they were growing. And so, sometimes we do things that are foundational to our children's development, even if they don't have a conscious and direct memory of that thing. And that's how I see world travel. So, we've been to Europe, and we were in Greece when COVID hit. We were in the middle of a big trip there. So, we had the whole struggle to get back to the United States. We've been to West Africa, most spent in Ghana, England, France. We're going to Ethiopia this year. So, yeah, that's kind of, that's our thing.

Laura Dugger: (36:20 - 37:04) Wow. And those memories are incredible. Even let's say your children forget some of this, or if they're too young to remember all of it, you remember this and you get to share those stories with them and pass that along. I can't even imagine all of the learning that takes place from being immersed in those other cultures. But you also mentioned welcoming people into your basement apartment. So, you sound hospitable as a family. What does that actually look like? And I'm kind of going to throw two questions at you. What does that actually look like? And then both for world schooling and hospitality, what are tips for ways we can replicate that as well?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (37:06 - 39:52) So, one thing that's important to me to always share about world schooling, I have a whole chapter about our world schooling adventures in my first book, but one important thing that I call out there is Eli Gerzen. He's the guy who came up with the word world schooling. And he says, you know, we don't even need a passport to do it. That world schooling is really learning from the world around you. It could be your local library. It could be the internet. It could be your neighbors. And so, while I use this more global term of world schooling, because that's just what we call it in our family, the truth of the matter is it's a way of seeing the world and seeing all the opportunity to make connections right where you're sitting. And people are like, oh, you guys have so much money. I can't do that. First of all, we don't have so much money. Like, for instance, we have one car, right? So, there are sacrifices that we make that other people may choose to spend their money in a different way. So, we definitely don't have a ton of money. But more importantly, I'm thinking, yeah, you're saying that you don't have money, but how much have you explored your county? Like, what do you know about the history of your county? And have you been to your local historical society? And have you really, you know, got in? Have you been to an old the oldest cemetery within driving distance of your home? Have you gotten a tour of it to hear the stories of who's there? Like, you can have that same inquiry and curiosity without ever leaving. So, I'll say that first. And in terms of the hospitality part, it's like an it's an intention, right? You have to like, decide that you're going to do that, because it's so much easier not to have people at first view, like, oh, my house is not clean, and blah, blah, blah. And people don't just stop by the way they used to stop by, like my grandparents’ house, it was so fun staying there in the summer, because people just folks just came in and out all day, just they come calling is what they call it, they come calling. And even when we read Jane Austin, people leaving the call guard, you know, when they came to visit, and you weren't there, like, there was this idea that you didn't have to have an appointment. And now you do, you have to let someone know before you're coming. So, it's a choice to be vulnerable, if you want to be hospitable in that way that people will see your, you know, dirty bones of your house. And you know that you're not always presenting this, like really sanitized version of your family and your family life. And so, I think that's intentional decision to say it's more important to us to be with other people and let them in than it is for us to always sanitize everything before they get here. And I don't mean sanitizes and clean the house that too, but I mean sanitizes and everyone's behaving the way that I want them to behave in front of people and all of that as well.

Laura Dugger: (39:53 - 41:05) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you? Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.

Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.

Well, and I think it is a biblical command for all of us and it does bless the person or the people that we are hosting, but there are also rewards for us in the process. So, if you even just could think of one reward of a way that this hospitality has blessed your family, what would you say?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (41:07 - 41:55) Well, I would say John chapter five, it says, you know, this verse we've all heard, "I am the vine, you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit apart from me, you can do nothing." So, you know, when we talk about hospitality, we spend a lot of time talking about what my family is doing for other people. But also, that means that my family is constantly in contact with other believers and other people who are helping us with our faith to helping us to remain connected to Jesus. And without that connection, we know that there's nothing that we can do, nothing of any spiritual significance. So, while I'm inviting those people into our lives, it also ensures that my family is not alone in what we're trying to do in our faith. So, like, that's one of a very easy benefit, I can say right off the top.

Laura Dugger: (41:56 - 42:18) Then that one is truly invaluable for our children to get to witness the way other people live out their faith, and it impacts each of us. But I'm also curious, how do you manage your time so that you can be a content creator, and you can homeschool and travel and cultivate these relationships?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (42:20 - 46:08) So, first, let me say that it's not always easy. And there are seasons where I feel like I'm doing a really good job with that. And there are seasons where I feel like I'm not doing a good job. I always prioritize my family first. And so, during the seasons where I feel like I'm not doing a good job, it's very public. People can see I did not post on Instagram for a month, or I'm not speaking as much. They're finding it harder to find opportunities to hear me speak, or I have a long lull before books are published. Those are times where I've turned inward towards my family, where I felt like I didn't have the bandwidth for everything. And so, that's something I have to deal with on a constant basis, because I know that my business or my ministry is not as rich and robust as it could be. I have ideas for days. I have ideas and the ability to bring them to fruition. But I'm not willing to sacrifice the time that it takes to do those things in this season. Because even though I don't have little kids, I definitely have more time than I did when I had little kids. It's not even just time; it's more mind clarity as well. But I don't have as much time as people with little kids would think, because I want to be fully present, even for my teens. When they want to talk to me, I want to be talkable too. I want to be available to them. And we're going to places. We're doing things. They're busy. I'm busy. And I'm trying to prepare them for young adulthood. And that's just as time-consuming as trying to prepare my young children for the next stage of their development. So, I guess it's so messy. Oh my gosh, it's messy. It's chaotic. It's a little bit crazy. But in the center of it all, I really appreciate the opportunities I do have to do the things that help refuel, help me refuel. So, I'm a writer. So, writing isn't just about creating a book. It's that I get to create a book, but really it's about the process and how cathartic it is for me to sit in silence and wonder about things and be able to write them out. And oh, lo and behold, there's a publisher who is interested in publishing those things. But the real work for me is in the process of writing. Then when I come home from a coffee shop or I emerge from my room, I come back more enthusiastic about what it is we're working on and what we're doing. The other thing that I would share is that I don't do all of that stuff by myself. So, things that people don't, just like I say, I have one car and we travel the world, people are like, oh, okay, this is not what I thought. My husband does all the laundry, every piece of laundry in this house that the teens do their own, but all the laundry that's done, he does and has done for over a decade. So, that's a thing I have to say, because you might be picturing that I'm doing all of those things. Or when I wrote one of my books, I was struggling and Scott was like, how can I help you? And he was like, what if we get help to come in with the kids like a nanny or something a few hours a week? I'm like, no, that's the last thing I want somebody to touch. So, he's like, well, what is it? So, we hired a chef, and she would prepare all of our dinners according to like what I, how I like my family to eat and lots of whole foods and good things. And she would drop them off at our house. It was very expensive, but I used part of the money from the advance from the publisher to pay for that so that I could write the book. So, I think those are things that a lot of times people don't talk about, but I have support in place. I'm not super woman any more than anyone else.

Laura Dugger: (46:08 - 46:49) Oh, I appreciate that real picture and those creative ideas because as mothers, we don't just make goals for ourselves. Like you said, we have these dreams and ideas that we could put into practice, but we consider our relationships as well and how it will impact everyone. So, I love hearing practically how that plays out for you and the trade-offs that you've chosen to make. And I know that you and I also share a passion for reading aloud. So, if we could get really practical for a moment, what are some of your most recommended read aloud for families from a variety of age groups?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (46:50 - 53:05) Well, I'm always ready for that question, but I have to say, it's almost asking me, which of my children are my favorite? It's so hard in so many ways, but for younger elementary, I picked three books that I think kind of help show how expansive I feel like I want my children's reading life to be. So, this book is called Indigo Dreaming, and it's a book about two girls, one's in North America and another one we can believe is off the coast of Africa. And they're both doing what they do in their own homes. And it's beautifully illustrated also, but they're both doing what they do in their own homes while wondering, is there another little girl in this world doing what I do, liking what I like? Well, indeed there is. And it's poetic and it has soft paintings. It's just stunning. And then another one is called The Magic Doll. It's a children's book inspired by African art. And in this book, the mother desperately wants to have a child, but she's dealing with infertility, and she turns to the use of an infertility doll. And what would I say about that? My family doesn't believe that, but it's a book that I read with my children because we were going to visit this culture. And I wanted to explain to them how we can respect something and learn about it even without adopting it. And that you can understand the yearning of a mother's heart to hold a child in her hand and the desperation that that could bring about. And I wanted them to know that we would see fertility dolls there and what they meant and things like that. And it's also beautifully illustrated, which is important to me. And then this one's just a fun book. It's called I Had a Favorite Dress, but as the dress starts getting too small, she cuts it and turns it into a skirt. And then it gets turned into this. And then the little, small piece gets turned into some socks. And then it's just a little scarf and snip, snip, sew, sew, pretty hair bow. And so, the same piece of fabric, this favorite dress she had, every time she can't use it in that way anymore, it gets moved and shifted. Into something else. And this book reminds me to just, you know, sometimes we share heavier topics with our children, even beautiful topics, but sometimes it's just joy. Like that's the whole purpose of the book is to smile and have fun. And I'll move more quickly for the older elementary books. I have this book called Schomburg. It's a nonfiction book about Arturo Schomburg and the man who built a library, which is now housed. His home library is now housed as part of the collection of the public library system in New York. And he collected books about all types of black and brown people. And it was considered one of the foremost library collections. So, as a book lover, I love that story. This one's called Heart and Soul. It's the story of America and African Americans with stunning illustrations by Kadir Nelson. So, I love visual art. I always say my family, we can't afford to buy the most exquisite art for our walls, but we have an exquisite art collection through our picture books that I've collected. And then the last one is for that group is John Henry by Julius Lester and Jerry Pinkney illustrations. So, those are two powerhouses of African American author and illustrator. Both have passed. And it is the tall tale of John Henry told in a way that you've never seen before. For older kids, like middle schoolers, I love this one Big Open Sky because it's about some black exodusters who are moving west. And it goes so well for families who love Little House on the Prairie. But, you know, Little House on the Prairie, in some ways, there's some instances that are a little disrespectful to Native Americans and black people. And this is like a redemptive story, not instead of but alongside of it to say that there were black people that were also moving westward and what was their journey. And it's written in verse, like, oh, my gosh, I can't even tell you enough about that. This book, The Angel Orphan, my friend Leah Bowden wrote this book, and it's the story of Charlotte Mason. So, in chapter book form. So, there's also a picture book that someone wrote, but this is a beautiful story about Charlotte Mason. And my family's all-time favorite on my kids read aloud is The Winged Feather Saga by Andrew Peterson. And that whole series, oh, my goodness, that cemented so much of our family lexicon, because it's filled with like made up words. And it I mean, we have jokes and talks and sayings for days coming out of that series. For our older teenagers, um, or even early elementary, early middle school and early teenage years, the Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry is just like a such a classic, Mildred D. Taylor that many of us read. But she also wrote a young adult version where Cassie is entering young adulthood. So, different age audiences, but same author. And a lot of people haven't heard of the other book All the Days Past, All the Days to Come. So, for high school, I love that. And then I threw a couple things in for mama. I'm an epic story of called Homegoing about two sisters and the different paths their lives take during a time I'm part of it is told in Africa and part of its told in the United States. And the last book I have is this memoir, A Black Mother's Garden. It's called Soil. And she uses her actual real garden at her home to kind of give us this idea of life. And it's, it's, you know, it's, it's hard to explain, but it's her it's part memoir, part gardening, like learning and talking about the plants, but also how all of that can turn into kind of like the soil of your life and the people being plants, and she really focuses on wildflowers. So, it's a stunningly, like poignant and beautiful memoir. So, those are my favorite, you know, and now if you ask me tomorrow, you're going to get a different stack.

Laura Dugger: (53:07 - 53:27) I love it. What a gift to get to see all of those you and I share some of those favorites, and you've introduced me to some new ones. So, I'm very grateful and hope everybody listening feels the same. But speaking of books, you've authored more than one. But will you tell us about your most recent release entitled Soul School?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (53:28 - 55:58) Yeah, so, Soul School is it's Soul School: Taking Kids on a Joy Filled Journey Through the Heart of Black American Culture. And I know it's so hard with those. But it is a book of books. So, people who have enjoyed Honey for a Child's Heart, or The Read-Aloud Family, those types of books, which I have adored, and I have all of them, and I've highlighted them or, or Give Your Child the World is another one, highlighted them and dog eared them and have used them to check out books for the library for my children for many, many years. And, and at the same time, I was always very, you know, on my heart that the books that I spend a lot of time reading with my children that I choose and I select are never really included in most of those books.

And there was the season, you know, I'm like, frustrated, you know, I'm mad. I'm like, why? Why are they putting these books in here? And then the more I thought about it, I was like, the most you can ask for a mother to do when she's sharing these books, when it's coming from that is what she read with her children. So, am I going to be mad at her that she didn't read what I think she should read? No, do I wish that it had been more expansive? Sure, I do. But how many of us wouldn't go back and do something differently if knowing what we know today or whatever. So, I wrote a companion like the I see not to replace those books. But this book is filled with African American and black diasporic children's literature starting from preschool all the way through high school.

The first part of the book, I talk about what I'm looking for specifically in books about black American culture, and why those things are important. So, the first few chapters, first five chapters are really teaching the teacher. And then the rest of the book, which makes up most of the book are really rich annotated book lists with descriptions why I chose the book discussion questions, project ideas, and something called second helpings. Like when you think of a big soul food dinner, you go through the line the first time and you fill your plate, but then you go back for second helpings of the things that taste the very best. So, if your child likes this book, then here are two second helpings that they also would probably enjoy. And you know, the book was years in the making, I read all 300 plus books in there from cover to cover. And that's kind of my contribution to raising our children.

Laura Dugger: (56:00 - 56:40) Wow, I mean, it is a stunning piece of work. And there's so much for your family, but also for all of us. So, I think of being one of your kids, what a treasure that their mom read 300 books and put this together. But for all of us, I love books on books. And like you said, we can use it to go to the library or then once we read those and find which other ones we love, we can add it to our home collection. So, thank you for that powerhouse of work. And Amber, there's still so much more that you could share with us. Where can we go after this conversation to connect with you or to learn more?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (56:42 - 56:56) Go to heritagemom.com. And there you'll find all of my books and years’ worth of blog posts and book recommendations and other things. My Instagram is @heritagemomblog and the same at Facebook.

Laura Dugger: (56:56 - 57:12) Wonderful. Okay, we will add those links to the show notes for today's episode. And you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, Amber, what is your savvy sauce?

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (57:12 - 57:50) Oh, this is such a great question. I love this part of your podcast. I would say that my savvy sauce is learning to be a really great listener. Like if there's nothing else, then that's listening to my husband and the things of his heart and listening to my children and my neighbors and my friends.

But also, people I don't know, people in other places. And also, people I disagree with and being willing to be quiet and listen and take what I can from what they're sharing as well. So, that is, I think my savvy sauce is being an introspective listener.

Laura Dugger: (57:50 – 58:13) That is well said. You are such an inspiring and creative soul. And I have thoroughly enjoyed this chat. And I know I've been hearing you speak on other podcasts and reading your work for years. So, this was such a treat to get to connect with you today. And I just want to say thank you for being my guest.

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (58:14 - 58:16) Thank you so much for having me.

Laura Dugger: (58:16 - 1:01:59) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?

It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.

But it starts with the bad news.

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.

So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

We need a Savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin.

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

So, would you pray with me now?

Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.

I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?

We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.

You get the opportunity to live your life for him.

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.

We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible.

The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.

I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John.

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.

I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ.

We also have show notes including where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.

Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

272. Pathway to Joy and Happiness in Parenting with Amy Rienow

Psalm 144:15b NKJV, "Happy are the people whose God is the Lord!"

*Transcription Below*

Questions and Topics We Cover:

Will you share your story of God revealing a spirit of perfectionism was sneaking into motherhood?

How can we recognize our own spirit of perfectionism and what can we do about it?

What is one thing you've found every mom needs more of and how can we get it?

Thank You to Our Sponsor: MidwestFoodBank.org

Amy Rienow's first ministry is loving her husband and nurturing faith in their seven children. She and Rob founded and lead Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry created to equip parents, encourage couples, and help families live for Christ. She attended the University of Illinois, followed by Wheaton College Graduate School, where she earned her MA in Clinical Psychology. She is a licensed clinical professional counselor. Amy has her hands full as a mom, partnering with Rob, and serving in the women’s and worship ministries at church.

Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned in Episode:

Special Patreon Re-Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow

Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman

87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow

182 Things I Wish I'd Have Known Before My Child Became a Teenager with Dr. Gary Chapman

220 Cultivating Healthy Family Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman

245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow

230 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Transcription*

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:43) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness.  Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.

I'm thrilled to get to introduce you to my inspiring guest for today, Amy Rienow. Now, that last name may sound familiar because Amy's husband, Dr. Rob Rienow, has been a previous guest multiple times, actually. So, I'll make sure and link his previous episodes in the show notes, along with other episodes that we recommend in this conversation.

Amy and Rob are founders of Visionary Family Ministries, and they are parents to seven children. Amy is also an author, podcaster, and she's practiced as a licensed clinical professional counselor in the past, so she's going to combine all of this experience together, and her wisdom just pours out as now she's going to seek to encourage us to seek the Lord and follow His guidance, especially as parents in our parenting journey. Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Amy.

Amy Rienow: (1:44 - 1:51) Hi Laura. I'm so glad to do this with you. It's been a while since we've talked about it, and I'm excited to be here today.

Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 2:00) Well, I'm thrilled to have you join, and I'd love to just dive in and hear how did Jesus Christ become your personal Lord and Savior?

Amy Rienow: (2:01 - 3:39)  I love that you start with that question. I grew up in a home with a Christian mom and a non-Christian dad, but they had made an arrangement before they were even married. She did have the wisdom to ask her husband to give her the domain of that, like picking a church, and he was willing to go with us as a family to church, even though he was not a believer, and that was very clear.

But she led me to the Lord when I was about four years old, and I grew up going to church, and that was my first. I feel like I never kind of have a lot of memory of not knowing Jesus, but I would say that my faith increased and became even more my own. I feel like it was always my own, but in high school, I went on a missions trip to Mexico, and I will never forget the experience of being in a very poor town in Mexico, and there was this horrible storm coming in, and all of us Americans were afraid of the storm, and we ran into the church while the service kept going on, and literally none of the Mexican people that were outside in the service, the storm didn't faze them at all.

They just kept going on, and honestly, that was such a pivotal point in my life where I was like, that is the type of faith that I wanted to have. I mean, it really cemented. I feel like that's when the Holy Spirit just helped me to know that that's who I want to be.

I want to be a person of that kind of faith in the Lord that is not budging when the storms come.

Laura Dugger: (3:40 - 4:04) Love that. Thank you for sharing, and since that time, you've added some people to your family, so I'd love to get a snapshot of your family right now and then share some more about motherhood, specifically in one of your books you wrote about recognizing that you had a spirit of perfectionism. So, I'd love to hear more about that because I think it's very relatable.

Amy Rienow: (4:05 - 6:43) Well, my family right now, I've been married to my husband Rob for 30 years. I have seven children, R.W., Lissy, J.D., Lainey, Millie, Ray, and Rush.  And R.W. is turning 28 this year. He has one little boy.

His name is Cliff, so that's my grandbaby number three. My daughter Lissy is married to Bond, and she's about to have baby number three, so that will be my fourth grandbaby. She has Avey, Bondy, and then this little new one on the way. And then my son J.D. just got married to Brooke last summer, so that is exciting. We're thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to have Brooke in our family. Lainey is graduating from Olivet. She graduated in three years, which we're really proud of. Millie is a junior.

Ray is a freshman, and Rush is in fifth grade, and I still homeschool those three. They kind of do part-time at a Christian school here, and then I homeschool the rest of the time. So, that is my current family.

It's expanding. As you will find out when you get to the stage, expansions come very quickly, and it's exciting, exciting times. But about that spirit of perfectionism, actually, even before I became a mom, I was convicted of a spirit of perfectionism because I had always been very critical of myself.

I had a very critical spirit. Just I don't know if it was, you know, the peer pressure, what those components are. I'm a middle child, but I just tended to critique myself very harshly.

And after I was married, even about a year, the Lord showed me how, because of my husband and I were becoming one flesh, I was really turning that critical spirit onto him. But then there was a book called The Fly Lady. She is a home organization.

I think I mention it in my book, but that is when I really began to understand that I struggled with perfectionism, and that's often what kept me paralyzed. It often keep me with that, you know, I would say engaging with that critical spirit, communicating a lot of criticisms, whether it be to my children or to my husband. So, that was, you know, so it started early in marriage, but by the time I was well into motherhood, I was really starting to understand what this was. What the critical spirit was, and it really was a spirit of perfectionism.

Laura Dugger: (6:44 - 6:52) Well, and the Lord met you there, and there is a story that you share related to picture frames. Would you be willing to tell that?

Amy Rienow: (6:52 - 9:07) Yeah. So, my daughter, Lissy, was graduating from high school, and it was classic me. I was trying to like get this massive graduation party together, and I'm sort of a procrastinator and life is busy.

So, it's like we are, okay, I got to get this done before this big party, this big event, and had a friend who was a decorator to kind of give me an idea of what to do. And so, my husband and really the whole family was kind of working overtime to get everything ready for this big event. And he had helped my, we had this huge wall that had to be that my decorator friend suggested a gallery wall.

So, we had all of these pictures up and I was looking at it late at night, kind of exhausted. We're talking about past midnight and I know it wasn't just my husband helping. I had JD helping.

I don't remember where I was, but we were just all working hard to get this ready for this party. And I was laying there as past midnight looking at that wall and so frustrated, like so frustrated because all those pictures I kept looking at like, Oh, this is going to be a mess. Like they're all, they're not like, you know, they're not command stripped.

Right. And so they're all going to be, I just felt like, what have I done? It's looking crooked already.

And it was so frustrating to me. And that is when the Holy spirit completely convicted me with just like, Amy, you should be looking what's in those pictures and not whether they're crooked or not crooked. Like, first of all, like all the family has been helping me with this vision.

Right. And it's not really their vision. It's my vision.

They've all been supportive of me in front of me. It was a wall of all the memories of all these beautiful pictures. And here I was so focused on my right angles and having it look perfect for the crowd coming in at the graduation party, as opposed to what everything on that wall represented.

And so, it was a very convicting moment to me of just like, I have a choice. Am I going to embrace everything in those pictures and everything my family's done to help us get to this special day? Or am I going to come in and be fixated on how crooked those picture frames look to me right now?

Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:19)  Appreciate you sharing that. And I'm wondering for any parent, especially listening, if they find themselves identifying with that spirit of perfectionism, what can we do with that?

Amy Rienow: (9:20 - 11:11)  It's a challenging one because I think our culture promotes it. And I also think I'm on the flip side of the positive side of it. Let me just say, I believe there's a vision of perfect in our hearts because we were created for perfect.

We're created for heaven. And the Bible says that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, or no mind has even conceived what God has prepared for those who love him. So, there's this drive for perfect that I think is very good and right.

And so, we don't want to give up like excellence, or we don't want to give up that we have that drive. The problem is that the enemy, in fact, I've actually done more research on this. There's really can be a demonic spirit of perfectionism where we're trying to create heaven here.

We're trying to think in our own flesh and our own strength that we can take care of all of our sin, take care of all of our flaws. We can take care of our children's flaws. We can take care of our husband's flaws.

That is actually from the enemy in the sense that we believe in our own strength. And you can look at that through history. It's basically a form of humanism that we can fix everything in ourselves.

God makes it very clear in scripture that that is not possible. So, I think understanding this tension, that it's okay to want things to be wonderful, that's not bad. But what's bad is when we leave God out of the picture and we put this pressure on ourselves and on the people around us to accomplish what only can God can do.

And we don't accept God's timing. We don't have patience with who we are, our sinful nature and really put our trust in Christ and not in ourselves.

Laura Dugger: (11:12 - 12:56) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

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You also write in one of your books that there's one thing that you found every mother needs. So, what is it and how can we get it?

Amy Rienow: (12:56 - 14:56) That one thing is joy, joy, joy. And, and I like to use the word happiness, honestly, because I feel like that happiness got a bad rap, I say, in Christian world for like a while, in my opinion. I don't know if it's still that way, but so often I heard sermon saying, you know, like we don't want happiness.

We want joy. Like there's these two different major things, like, you know, almost like a rejection of happiness for this deeper spiritual joy. Well, finally, the Lord really convicted me that deep, deep inner joy that doesn't show is an oxymoron.

Like, you really should see happiness. You should feel happiness. You should feel those things.

If you ever come across someone's like, oh no, I have a deep joy, but like, there's no evidence of it. Well, that's a red flag. That's a problem.

The Lord, you know, in the King James version, it actually says happier people whose God is the Lord. And I believe every mom desires that happiness. And sometimes they don't even really know that that's the most important element that they want in their home, you know, because it's so easy to get, I don't know, sidetracked on things that feel more important that you kind of forget how important happiness is.

And, you know, we can take it for granted. I feel like very easily because often when our kids are little and we don't have not entered that world of, whether it be academic or whatever into the greater world, let's just say in your home, you can kind of have like a natural happiness and joy that's just there, but it's so easily stifled. When we start putting our self into the world of either comparing ourselves to other moms, comparing our kids to other kids, stressing about the expectations or what we think our kids need.

We can often find that happiness slipping away. And I believe we do not want that to happen in our homes and in our hearts.

Laura Dugger: (14:57 - 15:08) And so how can we get more of that, both as parents and how can we train our kids to be happy and joyful as well?

Amy Rienow: (15:09 - 17:18) It's such a good question and a hard question. Cause I don't think it's just like we can snap our fingers and just do that. I think that it's really important that we are seeking the Lord and helping him order our priorities.

You know, God gave us 10 commandments for a reason. And if you look at the first one, it says, “You know, you'll have no other gods before me, you'll keep him first.” And part of the reason why I think that commandment is both like the first and also in many ways, very abstract, like, you know what I mean?

How do you even do that? You know, it's confusing, I think, but I think that's what the Lord wants is of a seeking of helping us keep him first. Because when we help to keep God first, number one, and number two, we don't have idols that we bow down to, that we place above him. Like, let's take an example of motherhood.

Let's say the idol might be, um, I have to have super smart children. Let's put it that way. You know, your joy is going to be robbed when you keep sacrificing to that idol, because that's a trap.

Like the enemy wants to trap you there to make the wrong sacrifices. And that is why I think God knows this. Like he's telling us right in those 10 commandments, you know, you need to keep me first.

You can have no, do not worship to idols. Because when you're making the sacrifices to eternal God, who is the author of joy, the author of love, the author of peace, those are the things he gives back to you. No other idol can give you peace.

No other idol can give you joy. So, I think when we look at the lack of joy that we see in a lot of our homes in our culture, it's because we've been ensnared into an idolatry where we're making the wrong sacrifices. We're sacrificing things that we don't realize the consequence of that until we're in it.

And we're like, wait, this didn't produce the happiness and joy that I expected it to produce. Cause we were tricked.

Laura Dugger: (17:19 - 17:27) Do you have any examples from your own life or friend's stories where that really comes to life?

Amy Rienow: (17:27 - 21:22) Oh boy. There's lots of examples and lots of friends stories, but I'm going to say one that's more of a story that I'm well aware of and not, you know, personally walk hand with. But I think it's always struck with me because it was so painful story. You know, I grew up, I've raised a lot of athletes in my home and my son, especially my first born very athletic boy.

And we were kind of at the beginning of the cusp of how important travel was, you know what I mean? Travel baseball and travel, you know, sports in general. And there's that pressure.

You need to choose this. You need to do this or else you are going to, you know, ruin the advantages for your child. If you don't do this, even if choosing that is going to mean you're going to sacrifice family time, you're going to sacrifice finances.

You are going to sacrifice your Sundays. I could go on and on. The world will tell you you have to do this in order to get to the prize that you're looking for, or your son is going to be disadvantaged.

If you don't choose that. And it took a lot to be like, no, we're not going to make, we're not going to make that trade. And there was a lot of pressure.

There's a lot of pressure with our son, you know what I mean? With him feeling sometimes neglected and having to deal in that relationship. So, it's not like that's immediate happiness or immediate joy, you know, but what did it did allow us to disciple him through all that.

It allowed us to see God, you know, use him, whatever team he was on, give him a lot of joy in sports. The blessing of it is that we saw him in high school, you know, excel in baseball, always rise to the top, win character awards. He eventually did go on to play college baseball and AIA, not like D1, but he got to play, got to use that gift to pay for his education.

But most importantly, he was a joyful, happy kid. Baseball didn't control his life. And I just praise God for that.

And in contrast, he, at the same, his age, same age level, there were these two boys who were twins were very well known for being top, top, top, top players. And they were just elevated in many circles we were in. And, you know, you, when you're in the baseball world, baseball moms will understand this, you know who the top players are.

You see the name, like, you know, when your son's in the paper for something, you know, he was listed in the number of top of DuPage kids. And obviously that's a feather in your cap and you're really proud of that. These boys were top of the top D1, but I'll never forget.

They went to different D1 schools and one of them ended up taking his own life his freshman year. I believe it just the most devastating thing. I could not, I cannot speak to any of those situations.

I don't know his family background. I do not know any history of at all. All I can say is it hit me really hard in the sense that these were the boys that so many parents were envying, envying of their success and of their status.

And that was so jolting to, to know that they'd received, you know, hit so many of these incredible hurdles that every parent thinks they want their kids to achieve. But obviously there was something amiss because there was a lack of joy, lack of happiness. I don't know the whole story.

But that just strikes me again of just how important it is to again, go back to keeping God first, make sure you're making the right sacrifices.

Laura Dugger: (21:23 - 22:43) That's a good word. It's such a sobering story, but making sure we're making the right sacrifices or really listening to God's counsel. That reminds me where I was this morning, Psalm 25.

I read it in the amplified version, but it was talking specifically that some of his guidance comes from his word. Like it's amazing. It's incredible.

It's important to pray and to be around others who are godly and do other spiritual rhythms, but there's nothing like reading his word to hear from him. And let me try and find the verses. Verse 14 in the amplified version says, “The secret of the wise counsel of the Lord is for those who fear him and he will let them know his covenant and reveal to them through his word, it's deep inner meaning.”

And the next verse, just the first part goes on to say, “My eyes are continually toward the Lord.” And that was such powerful takeaway this morning, but then I'm hearing it through the way that these lives played out. Because when you look, is it my understanding correct?

That you did travel sports, but they were not, your children chose not to do Sundays.

Amy Rienow: (22:44 - 25:52) Well, we did not even do travel sports for my oldest. It was back in the day when park district actually, you could, you know, like there were enough kids. So, we, my son did only park district all the way through eighth grade, but then he kind of, because he was like young for his age, he had one sort of gap year in between high school before he started like high school sports.

And that's when he did play a travel sport. We found one that honestly was not good at all. I don't think the level was any better than park district, but they accepted the no Sunday situation.

So, that's what we did. And you know, it was a losing team. Like he was on losing teams, like most of his baseball career until he got to high school.

So, it really was you know, the opposite of what the world said he needed. And yet he was able to, to rise and, and achieve. And honestly his high school experience was being able to always, he was a starter all the time and he his teams won.

So, it was like years of like, not, you know, kind of paying these prices I would say. And that's neither here or there. The winning or the losing is really not important.

The important was keeping baseball in its proper place, enjoying the gifts that God has given you, not letting, listening to the world. I'll just throw this in because we are what you said about sound. First of all, I love the amplified version.

So, that blessed me that you read the amplified, but you know, seeking the council, you, we must be as parents in his word, like regularly listening to how he's speaking to us because we also, it's so interesting. Rob and I live in a very interesting world. We had one foot, especially back then, one foot in the homeschool world, one foot in the public school area, public school community, lots of public school friends.

And then also the Christian school is where my son played. But you know, if we'd go to homeschool conference, there were tons of messages that you should not have your kids in sports at all. Sports are wrong.

Sports are a waste of time, you know? So, that was a strong message of sort of like condemnation almost for being in sports at all. So, my point is there was no one community that said, okay, this is the way, you know what I mean?

We had to seek the Lord, you know, for ourselves, for our family, for our son, knowing this was his love and his giftedness and continue to look for wisdom and how he should grow in those gifts. You know, and how he wanted to use it in his life, but not let it take over his life. And isn't that the lesson for all of us?

So, anyway, it depended on that seeking the counsel of him, both myself with my husband and then also with our W. It wasn't like we kept him out of the picture. We were praying the three of us for wisdom and all those things.

Laura Dugger: (25:53 - 26:42) I love hearing that because you're right. It's not about black and white decision of travel sports are always wrong or always right. But the main takeaway is seek the Lord because he has wisdom for our individual unique situation.

And I want to go back and close a few other loops. Sure. Please.

One of those being that even with perfectionism or with comparison or when we're choosing godly values that may contradict worldly values, I'm hearing a theme that there's a, it's a fight and that there's a spiritual battle. And you even said you had researched some of this, Amy, how do you personally learn about that and be aware of the spiritual realm?

Amy Rienow: (26:44 - 30:42) We, we really, I can't say it enough that we do need to be so aware of the spiritual realm. I didn't understand. I didn't understand in my early years of parenting at how important that was to pay attention to.

And here's the thing there's, I feel like there's the Lord brings us on a path along the way with the knowledge we need at the time. And then he wants us to stretch and grow and learn a little bit more. So, there was a season in my life.

When especially we began homeschooling, the Lord brought us into all these new teachings that we didn't really understand was so powerful. It was so wonderful. We were very blessed by all of those teaching and the conferences that we were attending.

But what began to happen for me is that the perfectionism that I knew was there kind of gotten folded into that teaching because all of a sudden I kind of wore as a spiritual, like pride that I, I called it my noble list. Now I, when I talk about my book, Not So Perfect Mom, I, this is not in the book, but this is part of my talks. Like I kind of replaced the world's list of great athlete, great, you know, so smart, all those things with my noble list.

My child will have wonderful character. My child will read God's word. My child will know what it means to serve, but you see what I mean?

We're still dealing with a list. God had to call me out of that way of thinking back to the importance of a relationship with him, meaning for myself and meaning for my kids. Because when my oldest was 12, I was starting to see that we could be raising a Pharisee. If we keep focusing on this noble list, like if he knows all of his Proverbs, if he obeys perfectly, if he, you know what I mean?

Like life is not supposed to be, God never called us to do that. He desires a daily relationship with us. And that's what he desires for our kids.

So, that was beginning to suffocate my oldest for sure. And my, I would say, and my daughter right underneath him because they felt the weight of this, you know, we need to arise to this, this standard. So, like that perfectionism can take on this, this type of robe that makes you feel very noble about it.

Especially if you're in certain circles, like spiritual circles, where if your kids look right, dress right. You know, say yes, ma'am and yes, sir. Then we're all assuming that they're wonderful and we're not really getting to the heart underneath, but that is, there's a tension and a spiritual battle.

That's far. That's super important to pay attention to. And the way the Lord showed that to me is that I would often say the phrase in conversation.

Oh, it's a battle. Oh, it's a battle. We're in a battle.

I'm the Lord. I don't know what they gave me a vision. That's too strong word, but I had this sort of, I, I guess it's a vision.

I imagine that I was on, I was sitting in a coffee, like at a table with a friend drinking coffee. And we were just, you know, chatting and yet that coffee table was in the middle of this bloody battlefield. And the Lord was just kind of showing me, this is how your attitude is about saying that it's in a battle.

Like you're sitting here, just talking with your friends, drinking coffee and chatting and laughing. And this is the battlefield. It's all around you.

What are you doing about the battle? You know, when you are following after the Lord, you need to expect opposition. You need to understand that your kids are under spiritual attack.

And if we're not praying and putting on that full armor of God and recognizing it, we're not engaged in it.

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When you go back to your family of origin, did your father ever find a saving faith in Jesus Christ as well?

Amy Rienow: (31:41 - 33:11) He did. He did actually. That's such a wonderful question. And he did when my husband and I were married for about a year. And he, at Christmas day in front of our whole family, after we were sitting at the table at dinner, he kind of waited for all the gifts to be open and be at a different spot.

And he said, “Well, I opened one more gift today and it was the gift of salvation.” Wow. I still tear up thinking about it and thinking about my older brother's response, who was not an emotional person.

And I saw tears in my older brother's eyes, but I just want to even in saying that, that taught me a lot because even at the time when he accepted salvation, he even said, I don't necessarily believe all the Bible's true. He really, you know, he accepted in faith and now he doesn't, you know, the Lord took him from evolutions. Now he's probably more conservative or believes the Bible in a way that I would say many other Christians maybe wouldn't believe, but I'm saying that it was a process watching him grow.

And my kids don't even understand that, that we call him Bop Bop. He used to be a man who, you know, let the communion plate pass every week. And he was not a believer because they see him so much as a spiritual leader now, but you see how faith moves and how faith changes us.

And we need to be patient with God in ourselves, with our kids, you know, and trust in that walk with Him. Love it.

Laura Dugger: (33:12 - 33:23) Well, I'm going to change gears here a little bit. Yeah. Will you explain attachment and share why you're so passionate about this topic?

Amy Rienow: (33:24 - 37:18) That is, I do feel like I love talking about attachment. I feel like it's an underrated thing to talk about. Some of you might be familiar.

I don't know if any of these names like Mary Ainsworth or the Harlow experience, you remember the monkey Harlow experience. It's most, most kids who've had like even a high school psychology class, know that the story of the monkey who has the wire surrogate mom with the bottle. And then has like the fuzzy mom that doesn't have the bottle and the monkey goes and gets its food from the bottle of the wire mom but continues to go over to the furry surrogate mom for comfort.

That's some of the original psychology on attachment but I was started my professional job in a school with children with behavior disorders and autism. That's one of my first jobs. And, and because of that, I went to different seminars for continuing education.

And one of them was a woman who specialized in attachment. And part of the reason she specialized in attachment because she'd adopted so many children and she was sort of a professional on adoption. And that's when I really did a deeper dive into attachment and specifically something called reactive attachment disorder.

I can't go into that. It would be a long tangent. But she was such an eye-opening time.

And this is even before I had children. But she said that, you know, she couldn't say everything she wanted to about attachment and the effects specifically of daycare on children, because it wasn't politically correct. That she would lose her funding basically, if she gave her true opinion on some of the things that our culture was doing to destroy attachment among families.

And it was just very eye opening to me that, you know, when we get our baby development books, the time that I was having kids, it was What to Expect When You're Expecting and What to Expect for Your One Year Old and all these milestones that moms are looking for. And obviously moms generally love their kids. I will stand by that over and over, you know what I mean?

That's the norm. And, you know, you're told to look for all of these milestones, but really attachment is not even mentioned in this book of how important it is. What are the signs of a securely attached child?

And yet this is so significant. And it's not just in the Christian world that we can recognize this. This is universally known in the psychology world, how important attachment is.

So, let's go back to that spiritual battle. Why is it that that is not discussed? Or why is that not focused in the development book?

Or why is it that if you're going to adopt a child, you're going to learn all about attachment, but that's not something that you may necessarily come into contact with if you're just having your own children. But attachment is essential for all healthy relationships. And specifically attachment with the mother.

I mean, we can use the term primary caregiver. Yes, to other people come in and be a primary care. I'm not saying that, you know. It's not just the mom, but this relationship with the mom, this, this attachment is so significant because God created it that way.

And it, how that relationship and how that attachment happens will have this impact on all the other relationships that your child is going to have in their life. So, it's something that we need to be talking about. And I pray that it becomes more and more common for people to talk about it.

Laura Dugger: (37:18 - 37:25) Well, and I'm even curious that speaker was that Karen Purvis?

Amy Rienow: (37:25 - 38:04) Oh, I don't even remember her name. I apologize. She was not a Christian. She was not a believer.

She, well, if she was, I don't know that. Cause I was, I was listening to her in a secular setting. You know, so she might've been, I don't, so I don't know, but I, the reason why it was so curious to me that the time most of the children on my case list that I had at this school were adopted.

So, I found that so interesting, like, and that was why I went to her seminar to try to understand more that connection of the adoption. And you know, how did that play into some of the problems that these children were, were having.

Laura Dugger: (38:05 - 38:20) Well, and just to go a little bit further with attachment, let's take it from the positive side. What are some proven examples or ways that we can form that healthy attachment with our children and that bonding?

Amy Rienow: (38:21 - 40:38) Yeah, well, a lot of it is just a spending time with your child, you know, and that's why I want to be very gentle here. Cause the world that we live in, I mean, I know for a fact that there are so many moms in situations where they have to go back to work right away. There are difficult circumstances.

And I'm, I am not here to say that then you don't have an attached relationship with child. Cause that is honestly not true. But I will say that if you have any opportunity to be home with your children, please, please, please take that opportunity because your children need that contact with you to form that attachment.

I mean, the number one thing for attachment is presence, time, touch, eye contact, and smiles. I mean, like it is what the baby that interplay that's happening with the baby and the mother and, and the why babies love faces. I mean, like they, we need to have that time with our children.

We need to be the ones to know our children the best that only comes with time. But even a mom who maybe for reasons have to be away from their baby, the important thing is that when you're with them, that you are engaged. You know, I even, I don't have my phone in front of me.

Even the phone takes away attachment. You know, when you're looking at another screen, as opposed to paying attention to that communication with the baby long before they're communicating long for the communicating with words, they are interacting and communicating with you. So, God knew what he's doing when he created mothers with the ability to feed their babies.

Nursing enables attachment, you know, because the baby is dependent on the mother. So, all of these things play into why God created our system the way it is because it was designed not to just physically feed our babies, but to emotionally create this attached, secured relationship where that enables a child to feel safe, feel security.

Laura Dugger: (40:39 - 40:54) Well, that makes me think of another a word that you wisely encourage us. And that is the word affection. So, can you share why this is also important to shower on our children?

Amy Rienow: (40:55 - 43:47) Yes. You know how it is when you become a mom, there's all these new parenting styles out there, things that you get bombarded with, or should I do this? Or, you know, and I think I was really impacted by a Bible, small group where a woman was talking about her six-month-old needing disciplining her six-month-old.

And it hit me really negatively because I just heard a woman who had had like, I think she has 17 children who talked about, you know, there's, you cannot spoil and she used, you cannot spoil anybody under the age of two. I would say it's as much as under three with as far as attention and love and affection, affection, your children need your affection. Again, let's go to how this, how Satan, let's go back to that spiritual battle.

We can keep going back. Cause I often find you can see God's truth with how it's perverted in the world. So, let's look at how we have a sex education system now in so many schools, including in Illinois that tries to teach younger children horrific adult sexual behaviors, correct?

And they are manipulating what needs to, what children do need, which is positive, a non-sexual physical connection with their parents, with their siblings, with aunts and uncles. So, so in some ways I can remember early in my career and either in my development in getting my classes, my masters, you know, in some ways they demonize, you know, like parents are afraid to sometimes have too much physical touch or too much of this because it's almost like, Oh, we can't, you know, we have to make sure our children are more independent, you know, like, like for example, co-sleeping, which builds a lot of affection between parents, which is normal in most cultures and normal throughout history can be viewed as really negative. Like, you know, you gotta get your kid in another room and another, like pushing them out early and yet look at what we see from the world, which is an encroachment of inappropriate touch, inappropriate sexuality at younger and younger ages.

And obviously kids who don't have positive, strong, physical affection are more inclined to fall for Satan's counterfeit. And desire and need touch, but they, they, it's been twisted from the world's perspective.

Laura Dugger: (43:47 - 44:17) Does that make sense? Are you tracking with that? I am.

And it's even making me think of a previous guest, Dr. Gary Chapman, talking about mostly the five love languages of in marriage and how those are displayed. But we also discussed with children and the parent child. And I'm just thinking as you're giving examples of affection, it, it even goes beyond the hugs and kisses and appropriate touch to acts of service and lighting up with them and spending that quality time and all those love languages.

Amy Rienow: (44:18 - 46:16) That's right. As the kids get older, I mean, my, my, we joke about, you know, I have certain sons that, did not want to be touched at all when they were 13, 14. We laughed at my son J.D. like he would want to come give me hugs and he would want to, but it had to always be on his terms.

Like I could never come up, you know what I mean? And how can you, my affection towards him was I'll get you a double cheeseburger. I will make you a milkshake.

That was the way I communicated my affection to him, but it was also my presence in listening to him when he needed to be listening to. There's so many ways as we get older. Right.

And I love Gary Chapman's work as far as like understanding our kids love, love languages, but I'll never forget, you know, I just had JD's wedding and he surprised me with the mother son dance and he had a song ready for me. I'm going to cry again, but it was this wonderful, he had told his siblings that he was probably going to cry on his wedding day when he saw Brooke and when he danced with his mom. And I had so many, and he was really hugging me and holding on and not afraid to be affectionate with me during that dance.

And that's because affection has always been a normal part of our home and a normal part of our relationship. And so, I just want to encourage parents out there not to be afraid of both physical affection when they're young and don't push your child. If your child is needing you or wants hugs, I would say, don't hesitate to give those to them because there is a culture again that pushes kids like, Oh, you shouldn't need that now.

You shouldn't, you're too old for that. Let them determine those boundaries. You give them the hugs and the affection as long as they still want it.

Cause I promise you they're all going to come to a day and they're not gonna want it. And you don't need to worry about if they're looking for that for you, it's a need that, that you can still meet.

Laura Dugger: (46:17 - 46:34) Well, and one other piece of parenting. I know we oftentimes hear mom guilt. I don't know if dads experienced the same thing, but how can we overcome that?

And what do you see as being at the root of struggling with sometimes that false guilt?

Amy Rienow: (46:35 - 49:52) Yes. Well, that I think comes so much again. Well, for me, it came internalized.

I had, I carried some internalized guilt with me, but that's compounded by a culture that puts so many expectations and demands on us as mothers. Where we are bombarded with another ideal, another sense of where we're falling short. And again, I know I keep coming back to the spiritual attack, but the point is I want to lay it out there that sometimes, sometimes moms can feel like, especially in an area, this sounds interesting, but because so many more children have been in daycare or exposed to a lot more developmental things at young ages. If you are like home with your kids, if you feel like, well, gosh, I'm not providing a craft every day.

I'm not, you know, I'm not reading. I went to the library and it literally had this whole campaign on a thousand books before kindergarten. Like, are you kidding me?

And that's the kind of thing. It's like, you're just having a normal mom day and all of a sudden you walk into the library and you get bombarded with what? I'm supposed to read my child a thousand books before, like a new standard that's just put in front of you.

And the enemy uses that to, to make women feel that they're not enough, you know? And first of all, we have to go back to God's word. That says, “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

And to really understand that, yes, we need to be open to be convicted to sin. But when we are convicted of something that our heavenly father wants us to change, we will experience a freedom and a lightning when we repent. And it'll be like a burden lifted up.

And as soon as you have that revenge, you feel like you've been given a gift. It's not something that's a burden. So, that is always my guide for women.

Like if you are under something that you feel like is a burden that you're carrying around, um, this sense that you're not doing enough or that you're a bad mom, that is not coming from your Heavenly Father. You need to reject that in the name of Jesus Christ, because this sense is clearly from the accuser. The Bible says Satan is an accuser and he stands accusing us, but Jesus is there to, you know, to say, no, that's my child.

They're covered by my love covered by my grace. So, we don't want to live under that over that guilt, bad mom guilt shadow for whatever, you know, God knows our faults. He doesn't expect us not to have faults, and your children are going to have faults and your husband are going to have faults.

So, if we think that the Lord is, you know, carrying around our faults, hanging over this, we need to, we need to be reminded that that's not from him and we have to reject it. And again, we're talking about a spiritual battle. You might have to reject the same lie 20 times a day until you find real freedom from falling for that guilt trap.

Laura Dugger: (49:53 - 50:12) Well, and along those lines, as you talk about engaging in the battle, you encourage us as children to woo our children in this same way that the Lord draws us close to him. So, how can we go and do likewise as the Lord does?

Amy Rienow: (50:12 - 52:09) Woo our children's hearts. Like I think it's important to know that the relationship that we have, our kids will, the more we model our relationship, our parenting off of how our heavenly father parents us, the easier it will be for our kids to kind of what I, I have a visual in my mind that I'm walking with my child's hand and I'm holding Jesus hand and I'm gradually through this parenting, trying to connect my child's hand to Jesus hands.

Like that's the picture that I want to be guiding my parenting, not I'm trying to raise you to be X, Y, Z, da, da, da, da, da. I'm trying to lead you to your Heavenly Savior. So, you're going to walk with Him.

So, Jesus is, you know, there's many components of our relationship with Jesus and the Heavenly Father and Holy spirit. But one of them is that God woos the hearts of his people. When you read scripture, He desired, He's always telling them you walk with Me.

“My burden is easy. My yoke is light.” You know what I mean?

He's, He's showing us this freedom and this love and grace. He's not coming with a sense of, see, you're doing this and this and this and this and this. And that's why. You know what I mean?

Like you see God's everlasting love for his people. And we want to woo our children with that same kind of everlasting love. You know, I always say, say you can, you can demand your kids to obey you.

You can demand your kids to respect you, but no one can demand love. Even our Heavenly Father doesn't demand love. He gives us free will and choice to choose to love him.

And so, we want to remember that with our kids to woo them. We want them to choose to love us. So, we woo our hearts.

You already mentioned Gary Chapman by understanding our kids' love languages. You know, realizing that's part of our job as a parent is to woo their hearts.

Laura Dugger: (52:10 - 53:13) So, I love how you're drawing this out as the Lord being the best parent ever and that we can learn from Him. That was something that I felt like he was really teaching me in my quiet time this week. And I wanted to take it one step further.

So, for me applying that, I just made a note on my phone and now anytime I come across a parenting scripture, I want to put it in this same list and go back and review it and be prayerful that the Lord can change me to be more like Him as a parent. So, I'm just going to share the first verse that inspired me to do this this week is Luke 6:36 and the amplified version again, “Be merciful, responsive, compassionate, tender, just as your Heavenly Father is merciful.” And so, Amy, just as He's a great parent and we can learn from Him, I appreciate you just drawing us back, pointing us to the heart of the Father.

And if we want to continue learning from you after this chat, where would you like to direct us?

Amy Rienow: (53:13 - 55:30) Well, I'd love you to come to our website at visionaryfam.com and listen to us at our podcast, Family Vision. You know, we named it Family Vision kind of like television because television really changed the American family. It did when it first introduced on to the scene and our heart is that family vision.

Our podcasts would help give your family a new vision, a vision from God's word for all that he wants to do in your family. You can also find our books well on our website, but also on Amazon. We have, I brought a couple today, but Not So Perfect Mom: Learning to Embrace What Matters Most, which is what you're talking about today.

And this book is very close to my heart because it really was wonderful. It was the easiest book I've ever written because I just felt like it was being able to talk about how God has worked in my own life and my own journey. And it just was the like culmination of so many conversations I've had with moms like all over the country, but really overseas and over the world.

And we're all battling some of the same exact things. So, I just, I would encourage you to pick up Not So Perfect Mom: Learning to Embrace What Matters Most. And then the other book that is, it's not new, it's called Shine Embracing God's Heart for You.

I'm actually leading a group of women through it on a zoom study right now. Um, but I actually wrote this, originally back in 2005 when I was a youth pastor's wife. Um, but really it's all about kind of what I talked about earlier of just, recognizing how to, to trust and believe the Lord.

I said, you know, wholeheartedly with our head and our hearts and our hands and, and really going back to, you know, keeping God first, identifying idols in our life. So, we, you know, the more that we get our own relationship with the Lord centered and we kind of figured that part out. I feel like everything flows from that in our homes, in our marriage, in our other relationships. So, I highly recommend, um, picking up this shine and there's a prayer journal to go with it.

There's a leader's guide. If you'd like to lead a group and that's all on Amazon or at our website.

Laura Dugger: (55:31 - 55:48) Wonderful. As always we'll add the links to that in the show notes for today's episode and Amy, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?

Amy Rienow: (55:48 - 57:06) I love that question. My Savvy Sauce is actually mentioned in Not So Perfect Mom, but it's when the Lord gave me that quote, “whatever is worth doing is worth doing poorly.” I feel that perfectionism kept me paralyzed so often.

If I couldn't do things exactly the way I thought that they should be in my head, then I was kind of pathetic and wasn't going to do it at all. And so, my encouragement in any area, if you know something is worth doing. Let me give you a practical example really quick on this, even when it comes to like, um, when you're struggling with your marriage. I know I had some issues in my marriage with my husband where I was getting to the point where I didn't even really want to go out on a date, you know, because it was just discouraging and whatever's worth doing is worth doing poorly. So, knowing that, you know, even when my relationships aren't living up to my expectations, or even when I'm feeling hurt, the Lord tells us to press on. Don't, don't stop doing what you know, God wants you to do, um, because you don't think it's living up to your expectations.

Do it. Just do it.

Laura Dugger: (57:07 - 57:38) That's a good word. And Amy, you have so much to share. Our family has benefited so much from the ministry and work that you and Rob do through Visionary Families.

And I am just so grateful for your time and you just to share all of this parenting wisdom. It felt like a mentoring conversation. I loved hearing all the ways that you've been intentional in what you've learned from the Lord. So, thank you for seeking Him.

Thank you for sharing with us and thank you for being my guest.

Amy Rienow: (57:39 - 57:58) Thank you, Laura, for having me. It's been a delight. I love connecting hearts with people who are like-minded.

I love what you're doing with The Savvy Sauce. In fact, my neighbor is one of your devoted followers, and she was so excited to hear about your podcast. So, thank you so much for having me and it's truly an honor and a pleasure to be here.

Laura Dugger: (57:59 - 1:01:13) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

271. Ways to Engage with Youth, Teens, and Gen Z in Church and at Home with Dr. Kara Powell

*Transcription Below*

1 Thessalonians 2:8 NIV "so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well."

Kara Powell, PhD, is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and the founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. Named by Christianity Today as one of "50 Women to Watch," Kara serves as a youth and family strategist for Orange, and she also speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences. Kara has authored or coauthored numerous books, including Faith Beyond Youth Group, 3 Big Questions That Shape Your Future, 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, Growing With, Growing Young, The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family, and the entire Sticky Faith series.

Kara and her husband, Dave, are regularly inspired by the learning and laughter that come from their three young adult children.

Questions and Topics We Cover:

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

127 Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw

2 God-Honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law with Author of The Mother-in-Law Dance, Annie Chapman

Stories Sampler from The Savvy Sauce Stories Series:

233 Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel

235 Stories Series: Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer

242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel

245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow

246 Stories Series: Experiencing God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Transcription*

Music: (0:00 – 0:11)

Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:13) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage.

Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. 

I am so honored to introduce my guest for today, Dr. Kara Powell. She is the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute. She's also founder of the 10x10 Collaboration and named by today as one of 50 women to watch. She is also extremely humble and insightful as she's going to discuss how we can leverage the power of stories and questions in our relationships at church and in our family and in beyond, and this is to model the life of Jesus.

Make sure you also stay tuned in through the end because she's going to share a plethora of conversations and questions specifically to ask when we're engaging in conversation with young people, whether that's our own children and teens or our grandchildren or people in the community or our churches. It's some questions that you don't want to miss. Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kara.

Dr. Kara Powell: (2:07 - 2:09) Oh, it's so good to be with you and your audience, Laura.

Laura Dugger: (2:09 - 2:13) Well, I'd love for you just to first give us a snapshot of your current life and share what's led you to the work that you get to do today.

Dr. Kara Powell: (2:14 - 4:06) Yeah, absolutely. So, let's see. I'll start with family. Dave and I have been married for I think 27-ish years, and we have three kids who are 24, 22, and 19.

Our youngest is a college freshman, and so we're technically empty nesters, but I actually like the term open nesters better because our kids come back, which we love. They come back in the summers and sometimes after college. And we actually, since I live in Pasadena, California, which had the fires in January, we actually have another 22-year-old young woman living with us, which we love.

So, we love having my husband, Dave, and I love having young people around, whether it's our own three kids or the young woman who's living with us. And I'm also a faculty member at Fuller Seminary, and while I certainly teach periodically, my main roles at Fuller actually have to do with leadership beyond Fuller. I'm the chief of leadership formation at Fuller, so I oversee all of Fuller's non-degree offerings, and then I'm the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, which is a research center that studies the faith of adolescents.

And I love that question, what got me to the work that I do today? Well, God would be the answer to that, but I was a long-term youth pastor here in Southern California at two different churches, loved teenagers, and Fuller was getting ready to start a new research center that was going to listen to the needs of parents and leaders, and then do research to answer those needs. And that really intrigued me, because I love young people, and I love research, and I love real-life ministry and family.

And so, I thought, well, I would love to hear more about that center, and I've been at Fuller now for over 20 years.

Laura Dugger: (4:07 - 4:17) Wow, that's incredible. And quick side note, I'm just so sorry for everything that you all endured in January with all the fires.

Dr. Kara Powell: (4:17 - 4:39) Yeah, it's heartbreaking, and in some ways, in many ways, devastating. And I'm grateful for how God is working through churches and working through God's people. So, there's all sorts of bright spots in the midst of the pain.

But yes, please pray that churches and God's people would be salt and light, because it's going to be a few years of rebuilding.

Laura Dugger: (440 - 4:43) Yes, Lord Jesus, may that be true. Amen.

Dr. Kara Powell: (4:43 - 4:44) Yeah, thank you.

Laura Dugger: (4:45 - 5:17) And I know with your background, you've studied practical theology, and you also have this broad knowledge of psychology. But some churches haven't studied psychology as much, and so I think that typically leads to less of an appreciation for it. But my fear is that they may miss out if they completely ignore it.

So, will you share some of the benefits that you've seen that come from applying God's truth from any of theologies?

Dr. Kara Powell: (5:17 - 8:14) Yeah, yeah. Well, at Fuller Seminary, we have two schools. One is our School of Mission and Theology, which I'm an alum of and a faculty member in.

And the other is our School of Psychology. And so, Laura, you asked a question that's right at the heart of what we love about training leaders and therapists. And in fact, my favorite statue at Fuller, the title of it is Planting the Cross in the Heart of Psychology.

And that's exactly what we believe. So, you know, God's made us as holistic people. And I love thinking both about how is our theology driving us as well as our psychology.

And you know, one way to think about our psychology, a colleague of mine at Fuller talks about people's losses and longings. And that phrase has been so helpful for me. Like, what are people's losses and longings?

And how is that connected with how they're responding? So, so much of our work at the Fuller Youth Institute relates to young people. And I remember coaching a senior pastor who was experiencing a lot of resistance to prioritizing young people from senior adults.

And what the senior pastor realized is, of course, I shouldn't say of course, but in this particular church, when he was saying we need to prioritize young people, those over 60 felt like, wait, that means I'm not going to be a priority. People who are older often already feel that here in US culture. And so, no wonder that was intimidating, that was threatening, that felt like a loss to those senior adults.

And so, I love what the senior pastor ended up doing is he implemented one of our principles of change that we recommend, which is people support what they create. And so, if you want to build ownership, then how can you involve as many people as possible in creating whatever you're trying to develop? And so, the senior pastor went to the senior adults and apologized for sending a message that, you know, made them feel like they were not going to be priority.

And instead, he said, how can we make this church a church that your grandkids would love to be part of? And that connected with those, you know, post 60, most of whom were grandparents, whether their grandkids live locally, or, you know, globally, they wanted their church to be a place where their grandkids and other young people would connect. And so, you know, he turned senior adults feeling like they were peripheral, to really feeling like they were partners in what God was doing in the church.

And so, yes, I would invite us all to think about what are people's losses and longings? And how is that contributing to how they're responding to whatever we're all experiencing?

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Well, Kara, you've also done so much research on young people and just in general, I'd love to hear what insights do you have on Gen Z?

Dr. Kara Powell: (10:20 - 14:16) Yeah, yeah. Well, we at the Fuller Youth Institute, we have spent a lot of time studying and doing research on Gen Z, which tends to be those who are 14, 15 and up. Our very youngest teenagers are all actually now Gen Alpha, but we'll talk about Gen Z.

And as we've looked at the research, we've landed on three words which we think well describe Gen Z. First, they are anxious. And if we look at young people today, they do have unprecedented levels of mental health challenges, anxiety, depression, stress, even suicidal thoughts.

And so, we do a lot of training to help parents and leaders understand mental health and how they can be a safe space and get young people the help they need. So, this is an anxious generation. This is an adaptive generation.

This generation is so creative and entrepreneurial and visionary. You know, while there's a lot of downsides to technology, technology also helps young people know more about what's wrong in the world and sometimes take steps to make what is wrong right and restore God's justice to our world. And so, this is an adaptive and creative generation.

And then in addition to being anxious and adaptive, this is a diverse generation. Here in the U.S., we crossed a line in 2020. In the midst of everything else that happened in 2020, we crossed a line where now 50% of those under 18 are young people of color.

So, for your audience to just keep that in mind that 50% of those under 18 are white and 50% are young people of color and that percentage of young people of color is likely going to continue to grow. So, I would say those are three key attributes to this generation. And then, you know, when it comes to what this generation is experiencing spiritually, I really appreciate what my friend and fellow podcaster Carey Nieuwhof has described with young people that they are both in revival and retreat.

And, you know, we see data for both. There's so much that's encouraging about how young people are responding to Jesus. They're open to Jesus.

We're seeing this especially on college campuses. They're responding in mass on college campuses in some really beautiful ways. Both InterVarsity and Crew are seeing that.

But then this generation is also in some ways distancing themselves from the institutional church. Springtide Research Institute did some study of 13- to 25-year-olds and found that 13- to 25-year-olds in the U.S. are almost three times as likely to say they've been hurt by organized religion as trust organized religion. So, our 13- to 25-year-olds are distrustful, a little cynical about institutional religion.

And so, we have our work cut out for us to build trust back. And let me just say, sadly, we have earned young people's lack of trust by the way that by our moral failures, by the way that we have not been as loving as Jesus wants us to be and as young people want us to be. And so, the good news is the way that we re-earn trust with young people is by little acts of kindness and consistency.

So, anybody listening can rebuild trust with a young person. The research on trust shows it's not about heroic acts. It's about sending a text and saying, hey, I'm praying for you.

It's about remembering a young person's name at church. It's about showing up at a young person's soccer game. So, in the midst of this generation and being both revival and retreat, there are practical steps that any adult can take.

Laura Dugger: (14:17 - 14:36) Wow, that's so good. You've got ideas now coming to me for how to pour into even the youth group. This is probably a very random idea, but how great would it be to have a Google calendar of all of their events and then whoever in the church is available to go support? That would just be a practical way.

Dr. Kara Powell: (14:36 - 15:45) Okay, so, Laura, you have just named actually one of my favorite ideas that a church that is here in Los Angeles is doing. They created a Google calendar and volunteers as well as parents can add information. But then what this church did, they started with a Google calendar and then it's a church of about 300 people.

And so, they have now started every Sunday morning. They have a slide with what's happening in young people's lives for the next week. So-and-so is in a play.

So-and-so has a basketball game. So-and-so has a Boy Scout activity. And so, adults in the church, often senior adults who have some extra time, are showing up at kids' events.

Plus, every week they're prioritizing young people. So, when you're a young person in that church and every week there's a slide about you and your friends and what's happening, that says something to the young people sitting there. So, yeah, you're-I actually love that idea.

And especially for smaller churches, I think that's one of the big advantages of smaller churches is we can be more intimate and caring. So, yes, let's please do that.

Laura Dugger: (15:46 - 16:00) Oh, that's so good. I love hearing how that played out. And now I'm also curious because you mentioned it's Gen Alpha behind.

Do you have any insight onto them as well?

Dr. Kara Powell: (16:00 - 16:27) Well, you're going to have to have me back because we are just-we received a grant from the Lilly Endowment, who's funded much of our research to study Gen Alpha. And they're just getting old enough that we really can, quite honestly. And so, like literally this week we are working on survey questions for Gen Alpha.

And we'll have more in the next year about what's similar between Gen Z and Gen Alpha, as well as what's different. So, I'd rather wait and save that for later.

Laura Dugger: (16:28 - 16:34) That sounds great. I'm especially interested in that generation. That is all four of our daughters would fall within that. So, I can't wait to hear your findings.

Dr. Kara Powell: (16:34 - 16:36) Yeah.

Laura Dugger: (16:38 - 17:15) And I think it's also bringing up, I'm going to link to a previous episode, Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw, because I don't know if you feel this same way. I think millennials especially got pegged as the generational bias put on them was actually confused with their life stage. And Hayden's the one who wrote about that and drew that to our attention.

So, that's helpful to sift out as we're thinking of young people too, because sometimes older generations can look down on younger generations and see some of the shortcomings. Do you see that as well?

Dr. Kara Powell: (17:16 - 18:55) Oh, for sure. For sure. I think we compare young people to who we are now instead of remembering our 13 and 19 and 25 year old self.

And so, I mean, that's one of our biggest pieces of advice when it comes to young people is instead of judging them, how do we journey with them? How do we really empathize with what they're experiencing? And when we are tempted to judge young people, let's just start at, well, let's just stop and ask ourselves, would we want to be a young person today?

It's so very challenging to be a young person today. I mean, mental health alone, like if I think about my tendency to, as a teenager myself, to compare myself with others, to be worried that I was left out. I mean, if there was a cell phone that showed me everything my friends were doing without me, and I'm stuck at home, like no wonder that young people feel more anxious.

I think I would really be struggling with anxiety if I was a teenager now. I mean, honestly, even at my age, I don't check social media on Friday night or Saturday night, because I might be, Dave and I might be having leftovers and either working or watching a movie on Netflix. And I go on social media and my friends are out with their husbands and having this phenomenal time.

And at my age, that makes me feel insecure, let alone imagine being a 13 or 18- or 22-year-old and navigating that. So, so yes, I think how can we empathize instead of finger point?

Laura Dugger: (18:56 - 19:12) Oh, and you write about how to navigate intergenerational tensions. How can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? And I guess, especially in the church?

Dr. Kara Powell: (19:12 - 22:39) Yeah, yeah, great question. So, one of our books is called Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. And we studied young people to try to understand the deep questions driving them.

And we landed on three. Identity, who am I? Belonging, where do I fit? And purpose, what difference can I make?

Identity, belonging and purpose. And those are that's such a helpful framework to understand young people and to empathize with them.

First off, I would say all of us are wrestling with identity, belonging and purpose. And when I feel emotional heat about an issue, if I feel insecure about something, it's usually because it's pricking at my identity, belonging or purpose. And so, that helps us realize that we navigate those questions, too.

But then also for the we who are parents, stepparents, grandparents, mentors of young people, you know, if a young person we care about is doing something that feels a little odd, a little askew, a little bit, that's not like them. If we can take a step back and ask, OK, what are they wrestling with? Is it identity?

Is it belonging? Is it purpose? That helps us empathize and know how to either ask a better question or, you know, give a little bit of hope rooted in whether that's rooted in scripture or in our own experience.

And so, yes, with our with our three kids, when I take a step back and ask, OK, they're saying something that feels odd or unlike them or I'm surprised this is provoking this response in them. Is it is it their identity, belonging or purpose that's at play here? It's like the penny drops and I come to understand.

So, I would say, you know, if we can wear those identity, belonging and purpose lenses, that really helps us understand young people. The other thing and, you know, I'm a professor, so I would give myself about a C plus in what I'm going to share next. OK, so if this is something I'm working on, it's this it's never make a statement if you can ask a question instead, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead.

And so, the more that we can ask questions about what young people are experiencing, like why, why, you know, in a very nonjudgmental way, like I'm just curious. And I start a lot of my questions with that. I'm curious.

I'm curious, like what does tick tock mean to you? Then, you know, that that can open up a real conversation instead of them feeling like we're somehow judging them for their technological use. I was proud of myself yesterday.

Like I said, I give myself about a C plus on this. But yesterday I was talking to my daughter about something. And I asked her, like, well, because she had stepped up to lead something.

And so instead of offering my advice, I said to her, well, you know, what do you think you did well as you were leading? And is there anything that you would want to do differently? And we were in the line of a fast-food place.

And I thought, yes, way to go. I ask questions instead of making statements, instead of offering my opinion. So, and sometimes we have to offer our opinion, for sure.

But just as a general rule, we can ask questions, especially the older our kids get. They respond to that better than us always sharing what we think.

Laura Dugger: (22:39 - 22:47) Well, and I also think you're even modeling this in the way you share stories is humility. So, when you partner that together, that seems very powerful.

Dr. Kara Powell: (22:48 - 23:53) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My one of my kids said something so interesting. At Mother's Day, my husband asked each of them to share something that they appreciated about me and which was wonderful to receive that affirmation.

And one of them and I I'm not going to reveal the gender here because I haven't asked this child permission to share this. But what my child said was that I was asking them for advice in a way that made it feel more like we were becoming friends. And I had asked this child for advice in the last couple of months about a couple situations.

And so, again, my kids are 19, 22 and 24. So, you know, it's different with younger kids. But for those of us with older kids, it was significant to this child of mine that I was asking them for advice.

And so, I want to keep doing that. I want to keep doing that. So, because I truly do want their perspective.

Yeah, I truly do want their perspective. And it means something to them when I do.

Laura Dugger: (23:54 - 25:28) Yes, absolutely. And I'm thinking back, this may have been like episode three back in 2018. But I talk with Annie Chapman.

She had written the book, The Mother-in-Law Dance. And what you're saying, she pointed out that what makes us a great parent and especially a great mother, the first half of our children's life or the first portion of our children's life at home, it's the opposite of the latter years. And so, you're right.

You're not probably going to ask your five-year-old for advice. But at your kids' phases, that is significant. Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights?

Make sure you access all of this at TheSavvySauce.com by clicking the button that says Join Our Email List so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy. 

This discussion with young people is also tied into your recent and optimistic book.

So, I'll hold it up here. It's in and you did co-author this with Jake Mulder and Raymond Chang. So, it's entitled Future-Focused Church, and you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead.

So, what led you to this optimistic realization?

Dr. Kara Powell: (25:28 - 26:23) Yeah. Yeah. Well, first, God, you know, this is where being a practical theologian comes into play.

Like I'm always trying to understand what is God up to in this situation and just the way that God is constantly working, redeeming, recreating. So, you know, that's the heart of my optimism and Jake and Ray's optimism as fellow co-authors. And then also Future-Focused Church is based on research we did with over a thousand churches where we journeyed with them in the change process and just the way that they were able to make changes that made them more loving, made them more hospitable to young people.

So, it's, you know, it's people like your listeners and churches like those that your audience is part of. That's what made us optimistic is to see how God is working through actual churches.

Laura Dugger: (26:25 - 26:40) I love that. And even near the beginning, it was on page 26, you succinctly gave a definition of a future-focused church. So, will you share that definition and also elaborate on each one of the facets?

Dr. Kara Powell: (26:40 - 29:17) Yeah, yeah. So, it starts with a group of Jesus followers. And, you know, if you look at the original Greek for church, ekklesia, it's not a building.

We use that phrase incorrectly when we say, you know, I'll meet you at church and we mean a building. It's actually those who are called out or from. So, it's always people in the New Testament.

And so, we believe a church is a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. And that's really important to us is this isn't about what Kara, Jake and Ray think you should do or what the church down the street is doing or even what your denomination is doing. It's you seeking God's direction together.

So, and we could have stopped there, honestly, a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. But then because of the time we've spent with over a thousand churches, because of our commitment to young people, because of what we see happening these days, we added three what we call checkpoints, three things that we think should be priorities for churches these days. One is relationally discipling young people.

And, you know, we were intentionally using the words relationally discipling. It's not just entertaining. It's not just standing near young people at worship service.

But how are we actually investing in young people? And then secondly, modeling kingdom diversity. Again, if you look at our country ethnically and racially, we are a diverse country.

And so, how can we model that? How can our churches reflect what our neighborhoods are? And then thirdly, tangibly loving our neighbors.

Jesus said that, you know, they will know that we are Christians by our love for another, for each other, as well as our love for neighbors. And so, how can we make sure that we are really a place that is salt and light? As I mentioned, you know, we are trying to be in Pasadena as churches these days as we're recovering from the fires.

So, we encourage churches to look at those three checkpoints in particular. But then again, we want churches to figure out what God is inviting them towards. So, maybe that's more prayer.

Maybe that's being more involved globally in evangelism, you know, whatever it might be. Seek that direction together. But then what we try to do is give a map to get there, because a lot of churches know what they want to change, but don't know how to bring about change.

And so, that's actually what the bulk of our book is about, is helping leaders know how to move their church from here to God's direction for them.

Laura Dugger: (29:18 - 30:27) And that's incredible that you walked with so many churches through that process. But I was especially encouraged by you being partial to sharing stories. And so, we recently did an entire stories series on The Savvy Sauce, and it was so compelling and faith building.

I can link to a sample of those in the show notes. But you write about stories shaping culture. And I just I want to share your quote and then ask you how we can actually implement this.

So, your quote is from page 57, where you write, “Organizational culture is best communicated and illustrated by stories. As well modeled by Jesus, one of the best ways to shift the culture of a church is through the disciplined and consistent telling of clear and compelling stories that invite a different culture and way of being.” So, Kara, how have you seen this done well?

Dr. Kara Powell: (30:27 - 33:10) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think about whatever system we're in, whether it's our families or whether it's our churches or whatever organization we're in. Yeah, our stories become really the key messages of what our culture is.

And so, I want to go back to that church that we were talking about that had a Google calendar and now does a Sunday announcement every week of kids’ events. Well, that church is also capturing stories of the 81-year-old who showed up at the 16-year-old soccer game, who didn't even know her all that well, but just had a free Thursday afternoon and knew that she was playing. And the pastor who was also on the sidelines at that soccer game, who ended up talking to both the parents of the 16-year-old and the 81-year-old.

And so, that became a story for that church of how different generations are supporting young people. And so, that pastor has told that story multiple, multiple times. You know, I just think about in our family, our kids love hearing our stories.

And that's part of how they I mean, it's a big, a big theme and how they come to know what it means to be a Powell. So, you know, earlier I said, you know, I said, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead. I think the exception to that, Laura, is if we're going to tell a story because stories communicate so much.

One of our one of our children is struggling with being anxious about something. And I was anxious last night. I never lose sleep.

I so rarely lose sleep. But I did last night. I was up for about an hour and a half in the middle of the night, finally ended up having a prayer time.

And that helped me go back to sleep. But I'm looking forward to telling my child, who's also struggling with anxiety, that story of me experiencing some, you know, 3:00 a.m. anxiety and what eventually helped me is kind of reflecting on a mantra I feel like God's given me. And I want to share that with my child, not to nag them, but just to let them know that, you know, in our family, this is how we want to try to respond to anxiety.

And maybe my story can be helpful for you the next time that you're struggling with it, which might be today. So, so, yes, the more that we can share our present and our past experiences, whether it's as individuals, families, organizations, the more that we communicate the cultural values that we want.

Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:45) That's so good. And I love how you're relating that to parents as well, because from the very youngest ages, tell me a story. And if it's like if we remember a story of them when they're a child, they just grasp onto that.

And we when we're tired at the end of the night, if we run out of our stories, we love even just reading aloud true stories of other people, too. OK, and I'm partnering then thinking of stories and one of your facets about I love how you said it. I'd love for you to repeat. Is it strategically discipling, relationally discipling?

Dr. Kara Powell: (33:45 - 33:46) Yeah.

Laura Dugger: (33:46 - 35:03) OK, so my brother and sister's church, I'm just going to highlight theirs because I love something that both of them are doing with our nieces and nephews. They just have them, the youth, write down three names of somebody in a different generation above theirs that they would enjoy getting to know, spending time with. And then they get matched with one of those people and they enter a yearlong mentorship relationship.

And I'm just thinking, one, their mentors all happen to be open nesters. And the male and female who have mentored our nieces and nephews, the female took our nieces, would send them a copy of a recipe, say, get these groceries this week. I'm coming to your house on Tuesday and we're going to cook all of this together and have it ready for your family dinner.

Just so practical and that they just build a love for each other. And then a similar thing with our nephews, where whatever that mentor's skill was, he was great at even making, I think, wood fired pizzas and just showing them practical skills, but relationally investing. And you see the youth's growth and maturity from that discipleship.

Dr. Kara Powell: (35:03 - 36:17) So, yeah, that's awesome. And not only the young people, but the adults, too. Like what's been so great, Laura, is, you know, while much of our research has looked at how adults change young people and how churches change young people, every time we study that, we see how young people change adults and churches, too.

So, you know, for that male and female who are mentoring your nieces and nephews, how they come to understand more about themselves, God, life, scripture, as they're spending time with young people, that's just really, really powerful. So, I also want to highlight, I love how your example, how it starts by asking young people, like who are some adults that you would like to spend more time with that you look up to? And, you know, we would do that with our kids when we needed babysitters.

Like who are some adults that you would like to get to know and how wonderful then that we could ask those adults, especially if they were of babysitting age, to come and be with our kids. And that way we were getting the babysitting we needed and our kids were getting the mentoring that they needed. So, so, yes, I think, you know, giving a young person some agency and who they spend time with, that's really beautiful in that example.

Laura Dugger: (36:18 - 36:21) Oh, that's and that's genius for a family life.

Dr. Kara Powell: (36:21 - 36:22) Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Laura Dugger: (36:23 - 36:39) Well, you also share some other helpful tips for churches, such as considering questions like, would anyone miss our church if it closed down? So, do you have any other practical tips that you want to make sure we don't miss?

Dr. Kara Powell: (36:39 - 40:19) Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I'll offer a few questions that we have found really helpful. And I'll start with questions when your kids are in elementary and then I'll give a couple of questions when your kids are older.

So, so one of the questions that we love asking at dinner when our kids were in elementary was, how did you see God at work today? And I will say that when I first raised that question, one of my daughters said, “Well, mommy, I can't answer that question. And I said, why not?”

She said, “Well, I don't have a job. How did you see God at work today? So, then we had to say, well, how did you see God working today?”

And I, you know, and equally important as our kids asking that question is that we were, excuse me, as our kids answering that question is that we were answering that question. And so, so, you know, any way that you can involve meaningful sharing, whether it's a dinner, whether it's a bedtime and that you are sharing, too. So, so that that's been a great one for our family.

And then when your kids get older, a couple come to mind. One is two pairs of questions actually come to mind. One is, you know, the phrase never make a statement.

Maybe you can ask the question said sometimes we do need to offer our advice as parents, our perspective. And I have found when I do that with my kids is now that they're late young adults, if I ask them first, well, what do you disagree with and what I said and give them an opportunity to critique what I said, then and then I ask a second question. OK, well, what might you agree with and what I said?

They're far more open to sharing what they agree with if they first have had a chance to critique me. So, I offer that as in those moments when you do need to offer your opinion or perspective, how can we still make it a dialogue? One way is to invite your kid to critique you.

And they'll probably point out things that you do need to reconsider, or at least it's good to hear those from your young person. Another pair of questions that that I have found so helpful with our kids is as they get older and really come to own their own faith. I love asking our kids, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe?

And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe? So, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe? And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe?

What I love about that is that it's making overt that our faith is going to continue to change and grow. And that's true for all of us. And it also makes differences discussable, because I'd far rather know how my kids' faith is changing and how it's different or similar than mine than not know.

And, you know, as we've asked our kids those questions over the years, sometimes their answer is like, not much has changed. Like, you know, but other times they do have different opinions that they want to share with me. And then I try to have that non-defensive, oh, OK, well, I'm curious.

Then again, starting phrase with I'm curious and then asking a question has given us some of the best conversations. So, you can get really tangible. How did you see God at work today?

But then as your kids get older, ask questions that that are more open-ended and can help you really understand where your kids are at.

Laura Dugger: (40:20 - 41:15) I love that. 

And I'm just thinking if people are listening like I listen to podcasts, it's when I'm on the go, when I'm doing a walk in the morning or if I'm cleaning around the house. And if you don't get a chance to take notes, we do have transcripts available now for all these episodes, but I would think so many people have written in about dialogue and questions for teenagers and how to handle.

And I love the way you responded to all of that. So, even grab the transcript and write down those questions and try them at dinner or bedtime tonight. But then even thinking of churches for practical tips, what do you have as far as hospitality and the impact that it could make if we're building relationships through hospitality?

But you also call out three ways to build relationships through sharing meals, sharing stories and sharing experiences.

Dr. Kara Powell: (41:15 - 43:08) Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think you've named it, Laura. How do we have a hospitable, open heart and open churches?

And I just want to go back to this question. Like, is our church a place that our kids and our grandkids would want to be part of? And if we keep asking that question, I think it helps us prioritize the next generation and make space for them at our meals, within our stories and within our experiences.

Now, I will say this, you know, I talk so much about intergenerational relationships and bringing the generations together. Like, I do think there's a time and a place for 16-year-olds to be on their own and 46-year-olds to be on their own and 76-year-olds to be on their own. It's just finding that balance of when do we bring all the generations together?

And then when do we want to have those special life development, life stage development conversations ourselves? And most churches are swinging far more toward we keep generations separate and need to swing the pendulum back to how can we have shared meals together? How can we serve together in ways that are shared?

And, you know, I'll just say this last thought when it comes to sharing experiences, especially those that are service. You know, a lot of churches have young people who are serving. They're in children's ministry, they're in sound, they're in tech, etc.

And that's awesome. And I think the question becomes, like, how can that young person be more than just a warm body who passes out graham crackers? And how can I think, OK, I'm teaching third graders and I'm also trying to mentor this 15-year-old who's working with me with the third graders and same with sound.

So, you know, anytime you're interacting with young people, it's an opportunity to influence, especially as you're sharing more about yourself.

Laura Dugger: (43:10 - 43:15) Love that. And you seem like an idea person as well. So, I'm going to bounce another idea.

Dr. Kara Powell: (43:16 - 43:16) Yeah.

Laura Dugger: (43:16 - 43:45) What I'm gathering is obviously we're keeping Jesus at the center and you're not downplaying the need for scripture or Bible study. And those kind of things but also adding there is value in I'm thinking shared experience. Specifically, I'm thinking of pickleball.

It's something that appeals to a wide age range. What if your church had invested in a pickleball sport to do something that could bring people together? So, what are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Kara Powell: (43:45 - 45:22) Yeah. Yeah. Pickleball, you know, senior adults who need tech help from teenagers.

That's another great way to connect people. I mean, any kind of shared interest 1 Thessalonians 2:8 is such an important scripture passage for me when it comes to discipleship. And Paul writes that we were delighted to share with you not just the gospel, but our very lives.

And so, how can we share life, whether it's pickleball, whether it's pizza? I'm running out of alliteration here. I was trying to do something else that started with P.

And for leaders who are listening, how can you take what you're already doing and make it more intergenerational? So, that's the other thing we like to tell churches is whether it's pickleball or whether it's well, we're already serving at the local homeless center to help people who are unhoused. Well, instead of that only being a youth event, maybe make that an all church event and see if adults come who can be mentoring young people.

So, you know, I love what one church did. Many churches have done this, actually, when they're looking for small group for homes where small groups can be for young people instead of going to like the parents of the teenagers. What if we go to our senior adults or our open or slash empty nesters and see if they'll open their homes?

Because then it's bringing more adults into contact with young people. And those adults who open their homes can also open their lives. So, yeah, just continuing to ask, how can we make this more of a connection across generations?

Goodness.

Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 45:39) And you have so many ideas and some of these are mentioned in this book, but you've also written many more helpful resources. So, will you give us an overview of the other books that you've authored and share a bit of what we might find if we read?

Dr. Kara Powell: (45:39 - 46:42) Yeah. So, our most recent book, as you've mentioned, is Future Focus Church, and that's especially geared to help leaders know how to move a ministry from where they are now to where God wants it to be. It's been so great to journey with leaders through that.

Probably our best book that offers a ton of questions you can ask young people is Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, where we get into identity, belonging and purpose, which I mentioned. And we have over 300 questions that an adult, whether it's a family member or a mentor or a neighbor or congregant can use with young people. And then the last one I'll offer is The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family comes out of our previous Sticky Faith research.

How do you help young people have faith that lasts? We have a special chapter in that book for grandparents. So, for any grandparents who are listening, that whole book and that chapter is a great resource.

But also we have had a lot of parents, stepparents say that The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family has been one of their favorite books.

Laura Dugger: (46:43 - 47:02) That's incredible. I'll have to link to those in the show notes for today's episode. But I'm sure you're aware we are called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is anonymous with practical knowledge.

And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?

Dr. Kara Powell: (47:03 - 48:16) That's a really good question, Laura. OK, I'll say I'll share the first thing that came to mind when you asked it. Gosh, probably 10 or 12 years ago, I read a book and from the book I adapted a phrase for my work life and my personal life, which is if it's not a definite yes, it's a no.

As a busy mom, as a busy employee, as a busy leader, I see potential in so many things. And so, I want to say yes to so many things. And then I end up tired.

I end up empty. I end up not being able to say yes to something maybe better that comes a month later because I've already committed to, you know, plan my seventh graders camping trip or give a talk or, you know, whatever it might be. And so, that phrase, we made it a six-month experiment in the Foley Youth Institute as well as in our family.

Like it's not a definite yes, it's a no. And it really helped us say no to things, trim and I think find a much more manageable pace. So, as we pray, as we pray, it's not a definite yes, it's a no.

That's been game changing for me.

Laura Dugger: (48:17 - 48:57) Well, I love how much you've modeled applying these things at your work or in our church, but also in our family life. It's all transferable. And Kara, this has just been a super special conversation because you've been on my list to have a conversation with for over a decade, probably since I got my hands on Sticky Faith.

And I just appreciate we've been talking as we were praying before we were recording. You desire so much, not only for young people, but for all people to experience this abundant life in Christ. And I'm so grateful for you and just want to say thank you for being my guest.

Dr. Kara Powell: (48:57 - 49:03) Oh, my pleasure, Laura. And thanks to you and how you serve your audience as well as our world. It's been an honor.

Laura Dugger: (49:04 - 52:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news. 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin. 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him. 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started. 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Psalm 119:67, which says, “Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep your word.”

*Transcription Below*

Doug Rumbold is a child of the living God, a loving husband to Jessica, and father to Jada, Oliver, and Pierce. Currently he is the Pastor of Counseling & Discipleship at Northfield Christian Fellowship where he has pastored since 2006. He desires for others to be transformed into Christlikeness through authentic relationships. He holds a biblical counseling certificate from CCEF, a Bachelor’s in Youth Ministry/ Adolescent Studies, and a Master’s of Ministry in Theology.

Connect with Doug on Instagram, Facebook, or schedule a counseling session through his website or order Doug's Book.

Presence over Pain Podcast

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Transcription*

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:38) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria, and Savvy Sauce Charities.

Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A, East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria. 

Doug Rumbold is my guest today. He is a pastor of counseling and discipleship, and he has recently written a book entitled Presence Over Pain. With Doug's biblical foundation and his sense of humor, he's now going to share some personal stories of suffering and God's continued faithfulness.

He illustrates how a yearness of God is oftentimes born through trial. So, regardless of what each of us are walking through today, Doug's going to remind us that we have the opportunity to turn toward Christ. Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Doug.

Doug Rumbold: (1:39 - 1:42) It's exciting to be here, even virtually.

Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 2:02) Well, and its always kind of special to have a local friend join me as a guest on the podcast. But for those who don't know you yet, I think it would be really helpful to hear your story and gain some context around what led you to write this book. So, will you just begin by sharing your story with us?

Doug Rumbold: (2:03 - 6:09) Yeah, I love stories in general. I think when I look at Scripture, three-quarters of it, roughly, is a narrative. It's a story.

And so, God's heart for story is just critical, even in His communication of truth and His love for us. So, it means everybody's story matters. So, my little story matters.

And I think mine's an interesting one. To begin with, I was born and raised in Morton, Illinois. And I was born the seventh of eight children.

So, my parent’s kind of did this, like, unbelievable quantity of births in a short amount of time. I'm not a woman, so I don't understand how this works. But I assume that having eight children in 10 years is crazy.

And they somehow managed to do that. So, I grew up in a loving Christian home. My dad was a phenomenal example of intention and direct when it came to conflict, merciful and forgiving when it needed to be called upon.

My mom was and still is somebody who she could have a conversation with anyone. I love my mom, her ability to just dive deep into conversation. I remember my college years.

My friends from college would actually love to come home to be with my parents, which is kind of odd. A bunch of college guys like, “Hey, can we come back from the big city of Chicago and go hang with your parents in the farm town?” Sure.

Yeah, enjoy. So, I grew up seventh of eight. My oldest sister passed away before I was born at the age of four.

She was actually buried on her fourth birthday, sadly. She passed away from leukemia. And then my youngest brother passed away my freshman year of college, which I talk about in the book a little bit.

So, for all of my growing up years, there were seven of us, not eight. And then the family just kind of continued to expand. Everybody eventually got married and had children.

And now on my side of the family, there's 35 grandkids. So, those are like pre-Medicaid type family backgrounds. You know, like you get together and everybody's going to take a Tylenol before because it's gonna be nice and loud and crazy.

But I would say from just a believing perspective at eight years old, I remember being in the basement of my church in Morton. My Sunday school teacher just giving a really compelling description, not just of how like, oh, you're going to burn, but more of a what does it look like to be separated from God for eternity? What might that be like?

And I was terrified but also had enough of these people pleasing mentality that I also didn't want to be the person who asked another question and held the class up. So, later on, I found out that it was easier for me to have that conversation. I think my mom discovered me kind of in tears, maybe even later that day.

And it was like, I don't think I know Jesus. And she's like, well, we can like, let's have a conversation. What's that look like?

And let's pray together. And so, at eight was when that became a reality in my life. And then really at 15 years old, coming home from a mission trip to Mexico, I ended up having just an awesome experience there and got baptized by a minister from our church.

His name was Dwayne. He was awesome. And then as I think through just, I mean, I mentioned it already, our family is really well acquainted with loss.

My oldest sister, my youngest brother, and then just some of our ongoing journey. My wife has an ongoing illness that requires a lot. It is a challenge for sure for her.

And then I think all of that kind of balls up together to frame a lot of where the content from my book comes from. Just living a life of non-ease has really kind of brought me to this place of if it's not going to go away or if it hasn't been taken away, what is it that sustains and how do I move through it and past it?

Laura Dugger: (6:09 - 6:32) And I definitely want to hear more elements of the book. But first, I'm just thinking through this. You said seven of eight and your youngest brother and you all are close in age.

So, to bring us into your story further, what age were you when you suffered that major loss of your brother and how did he pass away?

Doug Rumbold: (6:32 - 9:06) Yeah, that's a great question. So, my parents had all of us in 10 years. So, in 1969, they were married.

1970 is when they started cranking out children. And then 1980 was when my brother after me was born. And then it was 1997.

So, it's actually Halloween night of 1997. So, I was a freshman in college. I just moved away.

This was before cell phones. It's almost hard to imagine. But I was lying in my bed at night.

And my brother, my other brother, Ed, was at college with me as well as my sister, Jennifer, in the West suburbs in Elgin. And my brother tried to contact me because Ben had been in a car accident. So, he had been taking a walk with this girl he was getting to know.

And we live out in the country in Morton. So, you'll recognize these road names just because we're local. But if you know Tennessee, Tennessee and Harding, there's that intersection.

And my family grew up on Harding. But going down Tennessee Avenue, going north, a gentleman who actually ended up being our neighbor was coming over top of the hill. And he was changing a cassette tape, also a relic of the past.

And he was changing the cassette tape. And my brother was walking on the side of the road with traffic. So, his back was to oncoming traffic.

And the car struck him from behind. And he was essentially and effectively dead at the scene, but kind of for the benefit. And I will talk about this in the book a little bit.

The benefit of us, my other two siblings and I in Chicago, they, you know, rushed him straight to the hospital and then put him on life support. But he never had brain activity or anything from the moment that he arrived at the hospital till the following morning. We were asked, you know, how we wanted to continue.

And probably in the hardest decision that I've watched my dad make was to pull the power cord on life support. I mean, my dad was all about responsibility and he wasn't going to let somebody else do that. And my dad was also very quick in his ability to make a decision, even if the decision was hard.

And so, he just knew this was not, you know, technically Ben could have survived on life support. But he would have none of the vitality that he had had his entire 17 years prior. And so, that just was not an option.

Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:29) Goodness, Doug, I can't imagine that's one of those decisions you hope to never have to make as a parent. And then with your family grieving this sudden loss and then also working through forgiveness of a neighbor. What did that look like?

Doug Rumbold: (9:30 - 14:14) That's actually one of the most redeeming. I mean, again, God does this where he just kind of the Genesis 50 moment where it's like what the devil intended for harm. God meant for good.

And I remember his name was Mark. He's since passed. It happened in 97.

And I remember him coming to the door, you know, how people come to your house, and they provide condolences after a loss. And so, Ben was well known at high school. He worked with special needs children and was in the performing arts.

And so, he was just really well liked. And so, there was a high school kid. So, there's a steady stream of people coming, grieving kids, all that.

And I remember coming back from college and I remember not saying, I literally did not say a word for three days. My way of processing then was very inward. And so, I just remember being very silent.

I should correct myself. I didn't say a word other than what I'm about to tell you. Mark came to the house and Mark was in his mid-40s at the time.

And he was crushed. I mean, can you imagine what that would be like? And so, he shows up at the house.

And as he's coming up to the door, I remember my dad saying he pulls all of us kids aside. He says, “I want to tell you something. Mark is here.

He's coming up to the door. And right now, you have a choice. Forgiveness is never about how you feel.

It's about obedience. If you will forgive him now, I promise you will never struggle with bitterness toward him in this way. But it is an act of your will.

You must choose to forgive. But I'm not going to make you do so, like if you don't want to forgive him, that's fine. But I'm telling you right now, forgiveness is key.”

And I remember walking out to the door and greeting Mark and just giving him a hug and then looking at him in the eyes as a 19-year-old freshman in college and saying, “hey, Mark, I've done what you've done 100 times. You know, I've swerved off the side of the road. And so, I just want to let you know, I hold no ill will against you, and I completely forgive you.”

And he didn't really know what to say, just kind of mumbled some level of gratitude, I think. But it was kind of quiet. I had no idea the power in that moment that was happening where I was not bound to hold it against him.

And my dad was right. How many years are we removed from this? And I still had I never once thought, oh, what a jerk.

I can't believe you. I never struggled with anger toward God over the loss of my brother. These were things that I think could have happened had I held on to not being forgiven and not released Mark from that.

And probably the greater redemption happened over the years where over the next seven years, he would see my parents or my family around town, and he would always kind of hang his head. And my dad would always make it a point to say hi and to try to contact him and be kind. But Mark was just sullen, and it was difficult.

And then later on, Mark ended up having a pretty aggressive form of cancer. And by this point, my wife and I got married in January before. And I'll never forget.

We went to Carolina Beach. We lived in North Carolina at the time for just a quick getaway, the two of us. And we were coming back.

And on the drive back, I remember receiving a call from my dad and he's crying on the phone. He says, “Well, Mark just passed away.” And he goes, “but before he did, he invited your mother and I up to his hospital room.”

And when we walked in the room, he looked at me, he said, “Gary, I have I have often wondered why and how. Why would you forgive me? How did you muster the strength to do such a thing?”

And my dad, in his simplicity or whatever, was like, “Well, it's easy. I've you know, I've been forgiven. Do you know how much I've done?

Do you know what hurt I've caused other people?” And he says, “It's only natural that I should forgive you for what happened. It wasn't your intention.

Jesus forgave me. And so, I forgive you. Just real simple.”

And in that moment, Mark then began to ask what motivates. And my dad got to explain a relationship with Jesus Christ. And so, literally on his deathbed, just prior to passing, Mark turned his heart over to the Lord.

I mean, it was awesome. And so, just such a powerful story of forgiveness.

Laura Dugger: (14:16 - 19:48) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right.

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Now, back to the show. What are the three types of suffering you see laid out in the Bible?

Doug Rumbold: (19:50 - 21:29) Yeah, I'm not a theologian by any stretch, and so I'm sure I might be missing some. But I think when I look at all of Scripture, I guess I just kind of come away with three different forms of suffering. I see the first one that you kind of come across is the most poignant one is the suffering of Job.

Here's somebody who didn't do anything wrong, and he experiences catastrophic pain. So, the suffering that God allows in his sovereignty is the first form. The second one is the suffering that I caused.

Now, obviously, this is the one we first confront in Scripture, in the narrative. We see it in Genesis 3. But the story that most poignantly points this out to me is the story of David and Bathsheba.

Here's a king who has everything he needs and wants, and he should be out protecting and defending his kingdom. And instead, he's on his rooftop looking and taking what is not his. And so, there's suffering that I cause.

My pastor in college used to say, “You choose to sin, you choose to suffer.” And I think it's an apt description. And then the third form of suffering is the suffering that my faith brings.

I think about the apostles where they are called in by the council and arrested and beaten and told not to speak in the name. And what do they do? They walk out rejoicing, like, yes, we've been counted worthy to suffer.

Like, yeah, that's so different than the American version of Christianity at the present moment. We don't necessarily think that way. So, in short order, the suffering that God allows in his sovereignty, the suffering I cause in my sin, and the suffering my faith brings with persecution would be the three.

Laura Dugger: (21:30 - 21:42) Well, and I loved one of your quotes where you write, the earnest desire of my heart is that you come to understand the presence of God in and through suffering, no matter its cause.

Doug Rumbold: (21:43 - 22:03) Well, when I think about that, think of your own life, Laura. When you go back through ever since you just you surrendered your heart to Jesus, can you point to where were the deepest learning moments for you? What do you think?

How would you answer that question?

Laura Dugger: (22:04 - 22:26) I do feel like I may be an anomaly here because some of it is from those seasons of grief or searing loss. But also, I would say in the really good times, the gratitude and joy that he provides, those have been some of my greatest leaps in faith.

Doug Rumbold: (22:28 - 24:32) Yeah, I think that's huge. I think it's one of those reasons why you see in Scripture this idea of we're supposed to be people who are thanking God even through our suffering. I think it's that rhythm or that habit of gratitude that can transform even what may appear hard or difficult.

In the book, that quote that you just read, I think comes from this idea that God communicates his presence to us in different ways because of the form of suffering or hardship that we're facing. If I'm somebody who is suffering because of what God has allowed, I look at the idea of our daughter with cancer, for example, and I think, okay, the hardship that she faced, it would not make sense for her to frame her life and her hardship with suffering in terms of confession and forgiveness of sin. She didn't sin to get sick.

And so, the idea of how God's going to communicate his presence to her in the suffering that he allows is more about what does it mean to endure with patience and joy? How does she endure hardship with patience and joy? In those ways, in that way, rather, I think that's how God begins to communicate his presence to her.

His nearness to her means he's not far because something is wrong with her and she needs to be discarded. It's more that he is quite near, and it's the recognition of that. It's this like my heart can be glossed over by the pain I'm facing, whether God allows it, I cause it, or my faith brings it.

It can be glossed over if I have an inward curve, if I have like this inward turn of sin and I can miss. How does God want to communicate his presence to me through this? I think that overall, most of us focus more on the suffering that we're experiencing at times than we do on God's provided presence.

Laura Dugger: (24:33 - 24:54) And that reminds me of something else where you later write about Psalm 119:67, which says, “Before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I keep your word.” So, Doug, how did you experience the truth of this scripture through your experience with your daughter Jada?

Doug Rumbold: (24:56 - 27:57) Yeah, I think probably the safest and quickest description is pain has a way of getting our attention. Like your toe is just fine when you're walking to the kitchen at 2:00 a.m. to grab a drink of water and go back to bed. And then your toe makes its presence known when you kick the chair, right?

And you're like, oh, and then you're acutely aware of it. You know, you go back to bed and it's throbbing. You might put some ice on it.

Now it's cold. And pain is like that where it gets my attention when it's hit. And so, I was not aware, I don't think, of the depth of my self-reliance until every bit of control was removed from me.

So, particularly when I think of Jada's challenge, you know that before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I keep your word. There's this mercy in suffering that says ever so slightly, we are people who easily turn to ourselves and our resources before we will turn to God. My wife would say it this way, and I agree with her.

I think it's an excellent understanding of parenting. We both view parenting as a form of stewardship. So, if I get paid, which I do, you know, for my work as a pastor, I get paid, I steward that money.

It's not my money. The Lord owns the cattle on a thousand hills, right? So, if he owns everything, he owns even the finances that are put into my back pocket.

And the way that I steward it is the degree to which I am surrendered to him. And so, parenting is like that. God has given you the currency of children, and you have children that you are to steward back to God as an offering to him.

And my wife would say this, I just didn't know. I'm supposed to lay them down every day before the feet of God in full reliance and trust that he is a better parent than I will ever be. What happened in particular with our daughter showed how quickly we will take them back again, how quickly we will be people who will say, “Oh, well, I actually think I can make a better decision here than the Lord will.”

We would never say that out loud, but our control and our actions will illustrate that every day. It's one of the reasons why it's so easy to get offended when your kid sins against you. It's one of the reasons why it's so easy to be overwhelmed when your kid is far from you.

We can get to a place where though we are to steward our children back to God, like finances given to us, like children given to us, there's this idea we are supposed to be stewards. And so, I learned that I went astray from God. And I still do every day.

It's a thousand opportunities to return to him. Does that make sense or am I talking crazy?

Laura Dugger: (27:58 - 28:24) No, that makes that makes sense. And even I think you're talking about something probably a lot of us are relating to as parents of certain times where we really grasp we are not in control. So, will you even take us to that day where that first became a realization for you? Because you're a parent of I believe she was a five-year-old at the time. Is that right?

Doug Rumbold: (28:25 - 37:11) Yes, that day was awful. I would never want to repeat it. Jessica had it's not really a day, but a kind of a progression from kind of like a Thanksgiving time frame until January.

So, the short order is my wife was pregnant with our youngest and her date for delivery was supposed to be right after January 1st, because I remember thinking, are you kidding me? I'm going to miss the cutoff for claiming this dependent. And anyway, Thanksgiving, we had gone down to visit some dear friends of ours.

So, a shout out to John and Katrina. I'm sure they'll listen to this who live in Oklahoma. It's where I did my internship in college on like this orphan boys ranch.

It was awesome. I loved it and grew a great friendship with them. So, we were down there visiting them.

And my wife has this gallbladder attack. And the way she describes it, she felt like she was dying. And of course, she didn't wake me up because, you know, women can apparently experience pain and not make a big deal of it.

Men, that doesn't work. So, there's definitely a gender difference there. And so, she realizes as she's homeschooling Jada, this is not tenable.

I can't keep this up, especially if I'm going to have a child and everything. And so, we decided, oh, no big deal. We'll have just come back from our trip and decided we were going to put Jada in public school just for the last part of kindergarten.

And Jessica was going to give birth to the child and hopefully get the treatment that she needed because we took an ultrasound, and they discovered a bunch of gallstones. And it was rough. And so, we get back, and we go to the school, get the forms.

And basically, it was just filling out a couple of forms. Oh, yes. A bunch of check marks here, and a bunch of check marks there.

Get the dental form and all that. You need one last thing that we can't just sign away. You need to do a quick physical.

Now, Jada was feeling great doing everything. You know, all of her markers were fine. We go to a doctor from our church at the Tremont Medical Clinic and he performed just a simple physical.

And Jada was, you know, everything was just fine. And as he's palpating around her stomach, he's just kind of pressing there. And I don't know how doctors do this where they, you know, press on your stomach and they're like, OK, your organs are in the right place.

OK, I trust you. So, his face, like his countenance, just shifted. And Jessica and I were both in the room and he just kind of looks at me because I just can't reconcile this.

But to rule anything out, we're just going to have her get an ultrasound and be on our way. I remember thinking I had a hernia when I was young, maybe six months or something. I can't remember how old I was.

And so, Jessica and I went home that night and I mean, we were shedding tears like, oh, my goodness. Our sweet daughter has a hernia. Can't believe it.

What does this mean? She's going to have surgery, all this stuff. And never were we prepared for what happened next.

You know, the next morning she wakes up, and she takes Jada and Oliver, who's two at the time, to get the ultrasound in Peoria at a place called Peoria Imaging. And I stayed home. I was writing a sermon.

So, I'm sitting there working on a sermon from Mark, Chapter eight. And Jessica goes and I'm not hearing from her. I'm not hearing from her.

And then about three hours later, I got a call and she's like, so, they did an ultrasound and then they did like another one. And then they ordered a CT, and they just got done with the CT. And she goes and I just looked out in the waiting room and it's full and nobody's coming in.

And now they said that she needs an MRI. And I'm like, “What?” This doesn't seem like a hernia.

And she said, “Honey, I just asked the nurse, and they won't commit.” “Like they won't say anything,” I asked.

I kept asking if it's a hernia. And finally, I just asked one of the nurses, “Is it bad?” And the nurse said, “That she thinks it's significant.”

And I'm like, oh. And I remember that day then calling my dad or my parents and just kind of giving them updates along the way. Like, okay, you know, Jay is going in for a quick ultrasound, probably a hernia.

But then I remember calling my dad and my dad’s on the phone with me right after I got off with Jess. And I just said, “So, it went from just a quick ultrasound to CT to an MRI.” And I said, “They just finished the MRI or they're in process.”

And they said, “That after the MRI, they want to send her to the hospital for blood work.” And my dad's only response was, “Oh, boy. I mean, it was just like,” and his voice quivered.

You know, the quiver of like the I don't know if I'm ready for this sort of quiver. And I can only imagine what's going through his head, having already lost two children and particularly one to cancer. He knows that feeling.

So, the day only got longer from there. I got a ride over there with my sister-in-law to Puri Imaging. And then we went to the hospital together and had to get blood drawn and all that stuff.

And that's a whole story in and of itself, the trauma of that for her. But I remember leaving the hospital and Jessica and I know at this point with the full weight of this is not a hernia, but we still don't have answers. Like every time I'm asking a question to a doctor or a nurse, they are deferring and deferring and deferring.

And my anger internally is kind of growing. And so, I'm a little, I'm not aggressive, but I'm assertive. And I remember driving away from OSF in Peoria.

And as we're driving away, Jade is just in the back seat looking out the window. And Jessica and I are in the front seat, just crying, but trying to hold it together, you know. And I look in my rearview mirror.

I'm like, “Hey, sweetie.” And she's like, “Yeah.” “Like, what are you thinking about?”

She goes well. I just can't decide what smoothie I want at Smoothie King. That was the day where they, you know, the scan that she had to have was an NPO, which means she can't have any food or liquid unless it's clear.

And so, she was starving. And at this point it was like 6:30 at night. So, she's super hungry.

And so, we went to the first location and the second location. They were all closed between Christmas and New Year's. So, no Smoothie King for her.

And that was the last time we remember eating at McDonald's as a family. And then that night the diagnosis finally came. We got back home.

We were home for 10 minutes. And we received a call from what ended up being her surgeon from Illinois Medical Clinic. And we were asked to come back into an after-hours appointment, which those are never good.

And so, we walk in the door. We sit down. There's not even a secretary.

The lights in the building are off. We were walking down this hallway to this last, you know, exam room. And Jada is just sitting there on the table.

Jessica is about ready to pop pregnancy-wise. And the doctor walks in and says, so, I assume you know why you're here. And I said, actually, we haven't been able to get a straight answer.

And we have no idea what's happening. And she goes, are you kidding me? She's like, I have to be the one to tell you this, that your daughter has kidney cancer.

And I think the thing that caught me was Jessica sitting on a chair kind of at the foot of the exam table. And instinctively, I mean, it was like it wasn't even – it was no coaching. There was no – Jada just kind of crumbled and her body just kind of fell onto Jess.

And Jess's mom has walked through cancer twice. And so, Jessica has lived this journey as well, just the difficulty of it. And so, for her, she's just like I know what this required of me when my mom had it.

And I had to take care of her when I was in junior high and then again when I was in college. And now I'm pregnant and now my daughter has cancer. It was unreal.

And then I wrote about it in the book, but the walk from the front door to the van where Jada's face was buried in my neck. And the warmth of her tears and just her body just kind of melted into mine as we're walking back to the van. And it's like I never want to forget that because the usefulness of it, how helpful it is for me to recall some things, to live in that place of like this is what you redeem, this is what you restore.

But it was hard as heck. And so, that would be what I remember from the day of diagnosis.

Laura Dugger: (37:13 - 37:26) It is so hard to imagine what that would look like to get that news. And I'm just wondering for you and Jess, what did your faith look like and what were your conversations like with the Lord at that point?

Doug Rumbold: (37:29 - 39:10) You know, I – because of the loss of my brother earlier, I don't – I mean that's a great question. And I don't mean this how it might sound or come across, but my faith was never – I don't think that my faith was an issue in terms of am I still going to cling to Jesus. It was just more of a – it was just – it was so hard.

I really wish I had words for it. I talk about this in another podcast that I did. I remember just feeling so overwhelmed and more of a feeling like we were treading water in the middle of an ocean.

And someone – you're like begging for a life raft and they hand you a cinder block. And you're like, not helpful. So, my faith, our conversations with the Lord, they were hard, and we were certainly super sad.

My wife would probably talk about how she was broken and quiet and learning afresh what it means to surrender. But she is methodical and consistent in her pursuit of the Lord and extremely faithful. And so, hers was sitting in solitude and just waiting and cry and lament and work through it all and then come out the other side stronger.

I process things a little bit more verbally. But I think our faith was strong. We were just shattered for the pain that she was experiencing for sure.

Laura Dugger: (39:11 - 39:35) That's a great way of putting it. And just like He promises, I have spoken – Mark and I have talked with you and Jess before. And you've shared how God continued to be an ever-present help in these times of trouble.

But will you share one of your conversations with the Lord where he responded to you with alliteration?

Doug Rumbold: (39:35 - 45:50) Yeah, the one that I think of is – and I write about it a little bit in my book. But I just remember thinking kind of two questions that I would ask. One was right after Pierce was born and we obviously weren't having any sleep.

So, if you look at the timeline, Jada was diagnosed on the 30th of December. The 2nd of January was Jessica and my anniversary. The 3rd was Jada's surgery.

The 10th was when her pathology came back. And the diagnosis went from 95, 98% cure rate, survival rate just fine to like 40 to 60% survival rate. And a different stage of cancer and the size of the tumor was much larger than they originally anticipated.

And so, we came home that night from the pathology report and wept and wept and wept. And then Jessica started labor that night. And it was a blizzard.

Our midwife didn't make the birth. And then Pierce is born on the morning of the 11th, which is the same morning that Jada and I were supposed to go back in now to have more MRIs, more blood work to determine had the cancer metastasized throughout her whole body instead of just in that one tumor. And it was assumed that it had and so, that's why they were checking everything.

And so, it was an urgent, you need to get there for this. I just kind of felt like the one question, one of two questions I was asking, but one of them was with conversation with the Lord was when will you relent? Won't you just relent?

So, I was never like struggling in my faith to the degree that I was going to toss it, but I was angry with God. I was like, come on, like, how does this work? Can you give, throw me a bone, basically.

So, that was one conversation. But the conversation that's most poignant is after he started to frame those things up a little bit and give more of a trellis to build on. I remember treatment had begun, which timeline, if you're looking at it, the 11th is when Pierce is born.

The 13th is when Jada started treatment. So, from like the 13th to the 18th, she had radiation. And then after that, for the rest of the year, eight months, whatever, she had chemo.

I remember one morning I never slept at the hospital. It was just not comfortable. It was always beeping, stuff like that.

So, I would often go down to the playroom. There's an activity room at the end of the hall on the sixth floor there at OSF. And I'd be down there with a lackluster cup of coffee and my Bible and journal.

And I'd watch the sunrise over the city of Peoria. And it would just be kind of like; I really couldn't hardly read. It would be more of me just like, because no one was awake.

That was the only time when it was semi quiet. And I would just have these out loud conversations with the Lord. Like, what's happening?

And the conversation, the question that I kept asking was, Lord, how in the world are we going to do this? How in the world are we going to make it through? That's really when he began to kind of press back in.

And I'm not, I don't know how to explain this, but more of a, I had a very tangible sense that as I'm sitting there on the sixth floor, that he was almost in the chair next to me. And he's just, he's like, okay, tell me more about your struggle. What's it like?

Help me to understand the pain of your heart. And so, I'm, I'm unloading these things to Him. And all of a sudden I noticed the time and it's like, oh, Jada is going to be waking up soon.

I need to get back there before they do rounds, you know, and the whole dance starts again. And so, I kind of like, oh, I want to return. It's like when you wake up from a dream and you're like, oh no, I want to finish the dream.

And you try to go back to sleep quickly. That's a little bit of how that conversation was working out. And I remember going back to the room and jotting a few more things down in my journal.

And then after that it goes, okay. The day was now full of motion. And I had forgotten about the conversation quite honestly.

And until that evening, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna, I told Jada, I'm like, “Honey, I'm going to run home real quick and shower, get a change of clothes and maybe get some real food. And then I'll be back. Okay.”

Don't worry. And so, I hopped in my car, I turned on my headlights, and I got out of the parking garage, and I got on 74. And right as I was getting on the bridge to cross over the Illinois to go back toward Tremont, it was, I mean, I don't know how people feel about this.

So, sorry if I start a theological controversy on your podcast, but, um, I, as I'm sitting there as audible as you and I talking back and forth, there's this sense of my spirit of like, you asked how you're going to get through Christ community and confession. But there was really beyond that, there was really no discussion. You know, it was more just like those three words got tossed out.

And so, I remember driving down the highway and almost like, uh, you're in a zone where it's like, you see the headlights, you know, going like right past you and, and nothing is distracting to me. And I remember thinking some of those things made sense to me, like, you know, yes, Christ suffered. Yes.

I need community around me, things like that. But confession was the one that I struggled with the most. Like what do you mean by that?

You know, because I had a courtroom idea of confession, like, okay, I got caught doing something I shouldn't have. I need to confess. What I did was wrong.

And there definitely is that element. But I came to learn later that confession is the Hebrew word. One of the Hebrew words for it actually means praise.

And so, there's this, there's this idea of caught up, being caught up in understanding the presence of God and you're confessing. It's the word that actually, more accurately, fits is declaration. And so, I'm like, oh, wow.

Okay. So, what you're saying then is these scriptures that I've been studying for years now, I I'm actually, it's about declaring them in praise over my life, over my circumstances, over my daughter as a way of help to get us through. Okay.

Laura Dugger: (45:51 - 47:09) By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living. When you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes, as you read through the transcriptions, because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them.

We heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website.

Happy reading. And I just want to go back to something that you said, because you use the word relent. God, how long until you relent?

And yet he flipped that word and taught you that he will relentlessly continue to pursue you with his presence.

Doug Rumbold: (47:10 - 49:26) I'm glad that you draw that out because I think the relentless pursuit is in that question of when will you relent? It was one of our darker moments, even in marriage where my wife and I were both stretched to the max, totally thin and struggling. And it was an argument, you know, where I'm lying on the ground after my wife and I had just kind of like, I need you to take care of this.

And she's asking me to take care of something I'm not wanting to, and I'm holding my ground and I'm tired. She's tired. And aren't your best moments between midnight and 7am anyway?

And so, I remember laying on the ground. That moment was laying on the ground at the foot of my son's crib in our bedroom. And he was not sleeping.

He's a newborn. Newborns don't sleep easily. And I remember pounding the ground and actually saying, you know, when, when will you relent God?

Like when will you let up? And to see the connection between my question was the assumption that God had left the building that God had kind of punched the clock. Okay.

I'll be back by five. You know, like when instead, the way that He wants to communicate His presence to me in my suffering shows that He's relentlessly digging through every bit of self-reliance that I've set up to try to manufacture outcomes. And so, there, there's a way that His relentless presence is like, like waves on a shore one after the other, the rhythmic nature of it, the dependable nature of it, you can't stop it.

Nature of it is the way that He can and will use any circumstance trial in your life to communicate His presence to you. So, yeah, that's right. Its relenting is a releasing and letting go, but relentless pursuit is also this like dogged pursuit of us.

it's been said before that, that God or Christ is the hound of heaven, you know, like a blood hound with your scent who won't give up until He finds you. And so, similar to our experience for sure.

Laura Dugger: (49:27 - 50:00) Well, and you go into these stories and then also offer hope and offer so much scripture where you have poured over to help us make sense of suffering. And even see things where it's a very upside-down economy as God often has, where there's blessing in the affliction, but yet to close the loop on this story. Can you give us a picture of where your family is at today? Even the ages of your children and Jada's status?

Doug Rumbold: (50:01 - 52:27) Yeah, for sure. So, it's been a long journey for sure. Jada now is 18 and we are in preparation for her.

She is going to be going to Arizona Christian University in the fall. So, a nice short 24-hour drive away. And so, again, we're learning afresh what it looks like to lay down our children, but we're super excited about it.

We are super excited about the new friends she'll make. My wife and I have always said Jada is a spread your wings and fly sort of girl and cancer only proved that. So, we're super excited about that for her.

Our son, Oliver, who was two at the time, is now 14 where he's a freshman. He turns 15 this summer and I'm sure we'll be driving soon after. No concerns there.

And then my son, Pierce, is in sixth grade. And yeah, they all have their own interest’s kind of across the board. Jada loves music and singing and playing piano. 

Oliver is relationally. He's just this guy who enjoys mature conversation. So, like when we get together with our life group, you'll find him talking to the adult men just because he fits there. He's more of an old soul.

Pierce is our creative kid. He's always doing trick shots. And I mean, it's pretty crazy the stuff that he does. He's kind of fun like that and loves fishing and things of this nature. 

So, yeah, all of my kids are very interesting and different like that. My wife is doing homeschooling for the boys, and she continues to be somebody who is a silent influencer in the lives of many, usually and primarily through prayer.

But I am amazed at how often the Lord uses her in the lives of other people to bring about change and transformation. She's just an excellent gifted counselor of people with the word of God and prayer. So, that's kind of where our family's at.

I've been at the time that Jada was ill, I was the youth pastor at Northfield and I'm still at Northfield though. I'm in a different role. I'm pastor of counseling and discipleship here at Northfield.

So, I have never left this community. So, I'm trying to think if there's anything else update wise. I don't think so.

I think it's pretty much it.

Laura Dugger: (52:27 - 52:30) And so, Jada is in remission.

Doug Rumbold: (52:30 - 55:11) Yes. She did have one other occurrence where she started having really acute headaches in 2013. Then, those acute headaches turned into taking her back for a checkup and the checkup revealed a lesion on her frontal lobe. So, a brain tumor.

We had to wait eight weeks to scan again. Those eight weeks were the hardest and worst that I think we've faced even from the first cancer. It was like, “Oh my goodness, we're going to have to go through this again.”

And then we had this season of waiting, you know, the eight weeks and then she was going back in for another scan to determine scope and growth. Also, you know, what type of craniotomy or brain surgery they were going to perform, to address it or whether it was going to be treated medically. Or how was that going to happen? And so, that all took place. Then, they did the scan, and we had to wait.

Normally we would have these scans, and it would be like a four-to-eight-hour turnaround. And you know that same day or even the next day we get a call from the St. Jude office, and they would say all clear. This one went one day, that was two days.

And I called and they said, “Oh, well, you know, the doctor will call you.” And I'm like, “Come on Beth.” You know, she was the head nurse that I've had relationship with for a while.

And she's like, “No, you know, the doctor will tell you.” And I'm like, “That's never good.” And come to find out, we had to wait until the end of that week.

So, it was not one day, not two days, not three days, not four days, but five. So, it went from Monday to Friday. And on Friday, the doctor called me after hours.

And I thought for sure it was, you know, here we go treatment time. And, um, she called back and said, the reason it's taken so long is because I had to have conference calls with, uh, Memphis, DC, LA, all these different cancer centers and looking at the imaging together. But when, when we laid the last image that shows the lesion over the newest one, the newest one shows nothing like it's completely gone.

And she goes, and it's definitely here. It's definitely something that requires intervention. And now it doesn't.

And so, she goes, I just wanted to confirm the anomaly. I'm like, that's not an anomaly. That's a healing.

And so, uh, Jada has been in remission, ever since. So, she's been, she's been doing good. In fact, her last cancer follow-up appointment was like three weeks ago and got the all clear.

So, praise God.

Laura Dugger: (55:11 - 55:44) Praise God. What an awesome, miraculous healing. I'm so thankful you shared that and really Doug with your unique career that you're in and the journey that you and Jess have been through and your love of scripture, you're putting all of this together and it really is such a gift, this book that you've written.

So, can you tell us just a little bit more of who this book is for and what people could expect to find when they read it?

Doug Rumbold: (55:45 - 57:54) Yeah. So, the book is for anyone because, and you would know this as well, but you're either heading into a trial, you're in the middle of a trial or you're on the backside of a trial. And there's never a moment in which you can say, “Oh, okay, well now I've learned and now I've arrived and now we're good.”

I do think that the preparation of our heart for trial is critical because it's going to come like we are going to face suffering of some form at some point. And so, it's good to know how to approach it. It's for anybody who wants to learn and grow and be encouraged.

But specifically, one of the things that I struggled with during our trial, and it's ongoing, you know, because of some of the stuff that we mentioned before ongoing health issues in our family and stuff like that. But I, what I found was people would be like, “Oh, here's a book.” It's only 320 pages on suffering.

I'm like, really? Thanks for that. I've got no capacity to do that.

So, I purposely wanted to write a book that you could personally sit and read like in an afternoon. It's so, it's short. It's like, you know, a hundred pages and it's digestible.

So, you could jump from one chapter to the eighth chapter if you wanted, and you would, you would still hopefully gain something. So, I wanted to make it uniquely accessible and heart focused. So, you'll find kind of like throughout the chapters, I have these like, so, truth to life.

And what I'm basically doing is trying to say, “Okay, we talked about something at a 30,000-foot view. What does it look like boots on the ground here?” I don't usually just spell it out for you.

I usually ask questions that are going to force you to address heart issues because scripture is pretty clear that all of our conduct flows from a heart that's filled with good or bad. So, people can expect to be challenged. They can expect to not have something that's too long and too hard to read, but they can also expect to find it kind of built around story a little bit.

That's one of the reasons why I use those different stories from scripture. I think we relate well and explain things well in a story.

Laura Dugger: (57:55 - 58:14) Definitely agree. We learn so much from Jesus's stories. Those stick with us and yours do too.

So, thank you for sharing all of those today. And if anyone desires more help and healing after today's conversation, where would you direct them?

Doug Rumbold: (58:15 - 59:59) The first thing that I would do is just encourage prayer. The idea of silence and solitude is where you can be begun to become aware of the healing that you may need and being able to just journal it down and have it right in front of you. That is probably one of the first steps.

Second thing I would say is to lean into community. COVID has kind of wrecked things in some ways where some people have gotten used to this idea of either online attendance or whatever. Nothing, nothing, nothing replaces the body of Christ in the tangible way.

And so, the idea of being with and around other like-minded believers is critical. But in terms of myself, the book that I wrote, it's available on Walmart, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. You can just search Presence Over Pain in a search engine and find it pretty easily.

I am currently in the works of working through like an audio version of it because some people prefer that. So, that will be forthcoming. You can find me on Facebook or Instagram.

I provide biblical counseling in person or virtually so, people can contact me through those platforms if they want to have a conversation. And the cool thing is those things happen. There's a number of different connections that God has made where people have either read the book or they know someone who read the book and my name was recommended and here I am a couple of months later having a conversation with someone who found me online.

And I love technology for that purpose. How can we come together and build around something in Christ? It's pretty awesome.

Laura Dugger: (59:59 - 1:00:31) That is awesome. And we will certainly add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. In addition to the link to your own podcast where you dig a little bit deeper into the book.

And the name of that is also Presence Over Pain podcast. And Doug, you know that our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?

Doug Rumbold: (1:00:32 - 1:04:48) I love the question because practical is helpful. So, I think probably just some brief stories and then a couple of suggestions. So, I remember when I was younger, all seven of us children kind of growing up in the same house.

My dad had such a passion for us to know the word of God that he wanted us to all like sit down at the same time. And he was going to read a chapter of Proverbs. Well, can you imagine seven kids on a Tuesday morning trying to get ready for school?

And then your father saying, “Okay, everybody sit down.” Like nobody's going to be able to do that. And so, after a few failed attempts, what my dad did was he would, he would have a section that he was going to read, and he would start with the oldest child, and he would follow them around literally like follow them.

And he would just, he would read the word of God to them and then he would move to the next one and to the next one and to the next one and the next one. And I have memories of like even walking out the door, going to get on the bus and my dad following me right up to the door, reading the last bit of Proverbs to us. And so, practically speaking, you really cannot underestimate the value of intentionally diving into God's word daily personally.

Like don't let somebody else do it for you. It's so, personal. It's so, needed.

And just when you feel like it's not going to matter, the fruit of it will come forth. So, that's, that's one. And then the other story that kind of points to a practical reality is my wife grew up through her parents splitting up when she was, I think, second or third grade.

And just the difficulty of that, like the life of a single mom as she and her sister watched her mom go through that. But Jessica tells a story often of like not understanding and now understanding, but like she would knock on her mom's door and she would hear her mom crying and she would, she'd open the door and her mom would be face down on the floor, just, just praying and weeping. And she's like, hold on, honey.

Mommy just needs to be with Jesus. And it communicated this idea. And my wife has carried this on in our own family and in her practice of just like prayer and particularly prayers of lament are huge.

And so, practically speaking, what's that look like? I mean, I have an exercise. I'm sure you are being a counselor by nature would, would appreciate this.

But one of the things that you can do to learn how to lament is to look at a good number of the Psalms are lament Psalms. Like they're sad Psalms. Like Lord, my life stinks.

The wheels have fallen off and you're nowhere to be found. So, being honest with God is critical, but a simple assignment would be to read a lament Psalm, like Psalm 13 or Psalm 88 or Psalm 77, Psalm 42, any of those. And then as you read that Psalm, just the simple assignment is to like write your own Psalm of lament and then read it back to the Lord. You know, Lord, I felt like you were absent when my daughter was diagnosed with cancer, but I am going to trust in your unfailing love.

Like you see those pictures all throughout the Psalm. So, that's a practical, simple way to engage God. I think the last thing that I would say in terms of practical is the idea of rest from a perspective, you know, biblically it's called Sabbath.

Do you have a 24-hour period of rest? Because what you do when you Sabbath is you say something to God and to everyone else. It doesn't depend on me.

When I choose to rest, I'm choosing not to be productive. I'm choosing not to perform. I'm choosing only to receive.

I'm choosing to rest. I'm choosing to fall back into his arms. Rhythmically reminding ourselves of that for me, the way that that works out is like, you know, I'm a pastor.

So, Sundays are a workday. So, once I get home after Sunday until like noon, the following day is the time when it's like, okay, this is where I'm not going to be on my screen. I'm going to take a walk with the family.

We're going to have dinner together. Things that are filling and receiving are critically helpful. And I would say savvy.

Laura Dugger: (1:04:49 - 1:05:08) That's so good. And Doug, Mark and I are just so grateful to know you and Jess. We learn from both of you, and we've learned from your stories. They've been so impactful today.

So, thank you for writing this resource and thank you for being my guest today.

Doug Rumbold: (1:05:09 - 1:05:11) It was a total pleasure. Thank you for having me on.

Laura Dugger: (1:05:12 - 1:08:54) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?

It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?

Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?

We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.

We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.

Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.

I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.

I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes including where you can read scripture that describes this process.

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Mark 2:27 NIV "Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.

*Transcription Below*

Emily MacLeod-Wolfe is a Nurse Practitioner wellness professional with a passion for helping individuals achieve their health goals in a holistic and practical way.

With 5 years of invaluable experience in the field, Emily has developed a deep understanding of the importance of a balanced lifestyle for a vibrant life.

Emily firmly believes in treating the whole person, not just the symptoms, and takes a comprehensive approach to healthcare. She learned these from her own personal experience of dealing with Hashitmotos thyroiditis and eczema and found the root causes to treat them naturally. She is passionate to help others with the personal knowledge and health freedom she has received.

By combining her medical expertise with a focus on nutrition, exercise, and mindfulness, she empowers her clients to take control of their health and make sustainable lifestyle changes.

With a warm and empathetic demeanor, Emily creates a safe and supportive environment where clients feel heard and understood. She works closely with each individual to develop personalized wellness plans that are tailored to their unique needs and circumstances. Whether you’re looking to improve your physical fitness, manage stress, or simply lead a healthier life, Emily is dedicated to guiding, encouraging & supporting you on your wellness journey.

Emily's Website

Questions and Topics We Cover:

Thank you to our sponsor: Leman Property Management

Episode Mentioned Today:

256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast:

81. Sacred Rest with Doctor, Wife, Mother, and Author, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith

167. Pursuing Health in Four Key Areas with Debra Fileta

205. Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)

Hormones and Simple Changes to Feel SO Much Better with Functional Medicine Expert, Dr. Jill Carnahan

Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge

Special Patreon Re-release: Out of the Box Stress Relievers to Apply Today with Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith

215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen

216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen

217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler

Connect with us through The Savvy Sauce Website

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Transcription*

Music: (0:00 – 0:12)

Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:29) 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com, or connect with them on Facebook. 

Emily McLeod-Wolfe is my returning guest for today. Last time we talked about everything related to gut health, and I'll make sure to link that episode in the show notes for today's episode. I would highly recommend that you begin there, because there's a lot of overlap with solutions, as then we transition today into our topic about female hormones, the menstruation cycle, and how to make everything better, and even end up grateful to God for our female cycle.

Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Emily.

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (1:30 - 1:34) Thank you so much for having me again, Laura. I'm so excited about this section.

Laura Dugger: (1:35 - 1:40) Yes, can you just give us a brief reminder of the work that you get to do before we dive in?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (1:41 - 2:08) Yes. I am a holistic nurse practitioner. I was trained traditionally in traditional medicine at Vanderbilt, and then I went on to do ... Well, from my own personal health journey, I knew I wanted to do more holistic medicine, so I went on and did functional medicine, natural medicine training, so, now I have a practice called Pure Integrative Health, which is to blend the best of both worlds, and to basically to root cause medicine.

Laura Dugger: (2:08 - 2:19) Well, and we covered all things gut health last time, but I've been so excited to interview you about hormones, so as best as you can, could you just give us Hormones 101?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (2:21 - 3:02)  Yeah, yeah. And first of all, if you didn't hear the last episode, I would recommend go back to listen to the previous one, because the gut health is the precursor that builds to the hormones, and I don't recommend even trying to address the hormones unless you've got some of the gut healing going, because they are so interconnected, even in the way in which we don't want to be recycling hormones, so constipation is causing an excess hormone recycling that should not be happening. So, again, healthy gut health is going to help the hormones, but yes. So, for women, or for men, or what hormones would you like me to describe?

Laura Dugger: (3:02 - 3:11) I think we're just going to focus on women's hormones today, because I want to get more into our cycle as well. 

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (3:11 - 10:59) Oh, great question. Yeah. Okay. So, for women, we have the sex hormones, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, not nearly as high levels of testosterone as men, they can be highly driven off of it. If the testosterone is too high in women, then we look at things like PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, excess androgen, so it could be like abnormal hair growth, extra oily skin, acne, those are some signs of like maybe high testosterone, but also could be from high cortisol, which is the stress hormone that's made in the adrenal glands that sits on top of the kidneys and produces stress hormone.

Now we'll explain how the adrenals and the stress hormone cortisol affect some of the sex hormones, but those ones, and then there's one called DHEA, and that is the precursor hormone to testosterone. So, we've got estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, DHEA, pregnenolone is like the master hormone in which all the hormones can be made out of, and the cholesterol actually funnels into pregnenolone. So, our cholesterol is necessary, we do need good cholesterol to help all the hormones, so, yes, that's why good healthy fats and things like that are really helpful, like olive oil and avocado and baking, broiling and grilling things and all of that, the cholesterol, pregnenolone master hormone, we got DHEA, which is the precursor to testosterone.

And then testosterone can be the hormone that converts into estrogen, so, they're all connected, they're all very connected, so excess estrogen could be from too high testosterone. Anyhow, they're all over the place sometimes for women, and they do fluctuate just even within 28 days, so I'll kind of explain that, and then we can kind of go from there. So, we talked about cortisol, there's a lot of other hormones, but I was just telling you about the sex hormones, so that's necessary to understand a cycle of a woman.

So, when we start cycling, and then we have a couple different phases, we have the follicular phase, which is the first, day one is the day you start bleeding, and then day 14 is typically the day that we ovulate. So, day one, we have, estrogen starts to increase, we've kind of bottomed out, usually on our cycle, most women feel a little bit lower energy, I mean, we're bleeding and menstruating, and so some women lose a lot of iron, and ferritin levels can go down a lot during that, so we want to eat very iron-rich, lots of leafy greens, vegetables, good healthy fats to support. I kind of describe each week of our cycle, almost like a season, it's like winter is the first seven days of the bleeding, and then we've got spring, but then we start to feel really good, and everything is good, and then we've got summer, and we're doing great, and then we've got fall, and so we can kind of eat accordingly to, almost seasonally for the hormones, too.

So, we've got the first seven days, lower energy, because estrogen and progesterone are pretty bottomed out, but they start to gradually increase. Now estrogen really starts to increase, and then right around day 14, it comes down, and then progesterone takes over, and so right there is the ovulation, and that's where the ovaries will release an egg, and has the opportunity to be fertilized or not in the middle of the month, and it all very much interconnects with our moods and how we're feeling, and people have heard of PMS, premenstrual syndrome, you felt the hormonal changes and all of that, but there's definitely ways that we can kind of mitigate the extreme highs and lows, like some people deal with depression-like feelings and really big mood swings, we can work on leveling those things more so that they're not so drastic through certain things I'll describe, but anyhow, we've got follicular phase, estrogen, we've got the luteal phase, we've got ovulation, then we've got the luteal phase is where progesterone is really increasing and decreasing, and that's days 14 to 28 of the cycle. So, we've got first phase and second phase. And two, we can break it down even more to four weeks. 

We've got like the first week, lower energy, but that's like, you can even connect it to emotions and how, like, maximizing efficiency for work based off of your cycle. Because even, you're not supposed to make a really big life decision during the menstruating week, because that's just low energy and all that. But it's a good time to dream, brainstorm, hopefully you're taking time to rest, take care of your body, have some salt baths, rich in magnesium, eating those good foods, giving nutrients, if your body needs, you get your iron levels checked and your ferritin levels. Your practitioner might give you an iron supplement that you're kind of taking in conjunction, depending on that. And so, we're resting and resetting and having time to journal, dream, and brainstorm things for the, you know, hopefully the next and then the next week, the estrogen is coming up a lot, and starting to feel back to normal self, usually really good and feeling that surge, the mood starts to get better, it's a great time to start to do like some good heavy weightlifting and exercise can even be based around cycle two. For menstruation, you're probably going to want to do a little bit more lower impact and walking and stretching, Pilates, things like that. And then a bar and all that and then weightlifting that second week is great.

And then also, that's around ovulation is that's where we feel more loving and affectionate and different things and the way that God designed our body literally to want to be with a man around that time. And that's procreation time. And then right around the after ovulation, that third week, and fourth week can start to get challenging because that's where well, sometimes that third week is a good, sweet spot.

But the fourth week, the week before the period. Yeah, like that day is 19 to 21. And then like after that, that's where some mood swings can start to happen.

And the estrogens come down a lot progesterone depending on where the bodies at. Most women are deficient in progesterone overall. So, if it's already decreasing, it was a peak in the third week, and then it's decreasing, going towards menstruating again, then it's a recipe for not sleeping great mood swings, irritability, bloating, breast tenderness, that can be estrogen imbalances, excess estrogen, low progesterone like symptoms.

And then yeah, that was a lot.

Laura Dugger: (10:59 - 11:20) That's so helpful. I want right before we move on, because I want to hear how to mitigate some of those symptoms. But first, you mentioned eating seasonally, even each week. So, is that what you're saying that we eat more of those winter foods, that day one to seven? And could you give an example for each phase?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (11:21 - 14:19) One example, Sweet potato, you know, like the foods that you would find more in the winter. So, you're kind of doing like sweet potatoes.

And like I said, the fatty food, like a healthy fat Mediterranean, definitely right around the cycle. Body craves, if you find yourself craving chocolate, it's probably because your body's deficient in magnesium. Most of us are.

So, some women will use it as an excuse to have chocolate, guilty as charged. But actually, it's magnesium deficiency, but chocolate has magnesium in it. So, if you get a rich, like dark chocolate, if you're not sensitive to chocolate, and you can do one that's a really dark and, and doesn't have a ton of sugar, then that could be a good source.

But just foods rich in magnesium, dark leafy greens, avocados, nuts, and really checking levels and magnesium, Epsom salt baths, things like that, that's going to be great. You're going to want to do that also kind of the week before the period to in the fall like food. So, you know, like the, the squashes, and you kind of like the baked vegetables and, and protein and, and then like in the spring, like the week after, then maybe you're doing more like, you know, berries and, and, you know, things that you would have in this in the springtime and summer, different types of meat that you would like lean chicken and turkey. Then harvest like food for that week before the period to give you good. There's something called seed cycling. So, the pumpkin seeds and well, sesame and sunflower are for days 14 to 28 of the cycle.

So, the second half that gives the body the micronutrients needed to help support progesterone and then pumpkin and wow, I'm really blanking probably because I need to eat lunch. But we can come back well it's going to come back to me the pumpkin and the is it chia? No, flax.

Flax. Okay, flax seed. Pumpkin and flax for days one, the day we start bleeding to ovulation day 14, and then sesame and sunflower days 14 to 28.

So, like adding those into smoothies, handful of nuts, nut butter, sunflower seed butter, you know, those kinds of things. Those that can also kind of support the cycle naturally and give the body the nutrients that are needed to support the body like that.

Laura Dugger: (14:19 - 14:37) Okay. I have heard about seed cycling before. It kind of ties into the other question I had. I wondered if it's normal to have really painful and heavy menstrual cycles? Or is that an indicator that something's not right and maybe we need to bring in something like seed cycling?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (14:39 - 18:15) Yes, painful, heavy menstruation. That's not normal. I personally have dealt with them.

So, I understand they're awful and they can leave some women, you know, nauseous, throwing up, vomiting, breast tenderness. Now, that signs of excess estrogen that likely needs to be detoxed. And I would recommend going to a holistic practitioner and asking them to do a saliva hormone testing panel.

Actually, we have no, I don't have it with me right now. But it's basically these vials of saliva that you spit right when you wake up, lunchtime, dinnertime, bedtime, and it'll check sex hormones between days 19 to 21 of the cycle. We're checking peak progesterone time so we can look at the most accurate depiction if you're cycling.

It's still possible to do it if you're postmenopausal and want to do the test, we could do it at any time. But it's a saliva hormone test is the most accurate way to measure hormones and see exactly what's going on. We can check blood work, but it's just like a little shot in the dark. But the saliva is the more accurate picture of what's going on.

So, I would recommend if you're having really heavy menstrual cycle, yes, you can try the seed cycling to start. That's harmless to try. But there might be more things going on that really need to be seen by a practitioner to help either support what hormone is low or detox another hormone that is excess.

Now, we are overall in our society getting a lot of excess estrogen. And that can be through plastics, we get a lot like trying to switch even just a bottle as I'm drinking through. We don't want to try and drink as much plastic out of plastic, we want to do like glass water bottles.

And like stainless steel water bottles better. Unless you're in a crazy rush and you forgot to bring one is better drink some water than no water. We've got to stay hydrated to have healthy bowel movements to have energy to our cells, all of that good water filter that filters out fluoride, chlorine, those things will affect the thyroid very much so. Thyroid hormones affect sex hormones and etc.

So, we want to get a good filter for the water so that we don't have to deal with the after effects of thyroid imbalances or if you're already dealing with thyroid imbalances. I understand because I've dealt with that myself. And so, we want to remove as many stressors because the thyroid needs iodine just to function.

And if we're getting fluoride and chlorine, those particular elements compete for iodine in the body. So, we got to get those out as best as we can get rid of excess estrogen. Through plastics, chemicals and detergents, like all of the chemicals that are exposed in detergents and cleaning products. As much as we can clean those up as well, it's going to be very, very helpful for thyroid, very helpful for sex hormones.

Laura Dugger: (18:16 - 18:26) Oh, that's interesting. So, those I don't even think of that are like store brand names for detergents that those could be endocrine disruptors, you're saying?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (18:26 - 18:45) That's great. Yes. So, endocrine disruptors are things that are going to cause imbalances to the thyroid, the sex hormones, or any of their other hormones in the body. Yes. So, we definitely want to try and stay away from those things.

Laura Dugger: (18:46 - 21:10) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

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Okay, so I'm even thinking, so females my age or friends or older or younger women listening, even we have four daughters and so as they grow and mature, all of this is helpful. I'm assuming to start at a young age with getting rid of some of those toxins or not microwaving food on plastic plates, but then also you said detox. Is that through hydration or did you mean something else with detoxification?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (21:11 - 22:47) I can't get into this unless I saw somebody as a patient because I can't give across the board recommendation for this, but I will say because there are certain supplements and things that might be needed. Say there's excess estrogen in the body, there might be supplements that that person needs to help bring down those excess estrogen levels aside from food. But one thing that I do know that you can eat that helps overall is the more that you love and detoxify the liver. It's what has to process all the hormones.

One thing is broccoli sprouts, not broccoli, broccoli sprouts. So, you know, micro green sprouts, those ones, the broccoli sprouts are incredible at helping getting rid of the bad kinds of estrogen, detox those out of the body. So, that's really good.

Cruciferous vegetables, cooking your cruciferous vegetables though, because if you eat them raw, it can affect the thyroid negatively. So, it's best to, it could cause goiters and so we don't want that. It can be goitrogenic essentially.

So, we don't want that, but you could bake. I mean, you could cook cruciferous vegetables, broccoli, brussels sprouts, kale, etc., those cruciferous vegetables, spinach, all that. And those are great also for that. So, that can help.

The best one is the broccoli sprouts. Yes. And then getting saliva hormone testing done and seeing exactly where your body is at.

Laura Dugger: (22:48 - 22:53) Okay. Cause I'm wondering then could that even be a mineral deficiency when you're talking about supplements?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (22:55 - 27:11) Yeah, there definitely can be mineral deficiencies. It just, like I said, I've seen a lot of different variations, right? Excess estrogen, low progesterone, low menopausal, low everything.

Once the hormones bottom out, then they're kind of low across the board and the body might need bioidentical hormones to have extra support. It's cardioprotective, protective against cancers, protective for the bones, different things like that. Bioidentical is different than synthetic.

Synthetic hormones is like birth control, but synthetic hormones can, go see the last episode when we talk about leaky gut intestinal permeability, but the birth control can actually cause intestinal permeability too. So, that's a problem. Leaky gut can be from birth control, the synthetic birth control, and then the body's not even able to ovulate.

It's not able to release. There's just like the, the way that God designed it is we're actually, if you allow it to look at it as like a cleansing and a purging every month, that spiritually the Lord, if we allow the Lord, we don't have to dread it. It's so common in society to dread a period. Or, oh my gosh, again, here we go.

But how beautiful it's a celebration of the ability to give life. It's an opportunity to take some time to rest. It's a beautiful time to take some time to sit back and reflect, especially that week before the period.

Also try and not make big decisions the week before because the progesterone's bottomed out causing mood swings and then making decisions is going to be a lot more stressful and can lighten load and work a little bit that week before, a few days prior to your period. That would be very helpful. Stress levels really impact the cycle and also just trying to prepare the body for going through perimenopause and then menopause.

Wherever you're at in your health journey, life journey, it's, it's just so good to educate younger women to be really taking care of their adrenals, which is this, you know, the organ that produces stress hormone because high cortisol, which is the stress hormone produced by the adrenal glands, zaps progesterone and most women, that's probably why I see a lot of progesterone dipping so quickly. You need progesterone to have a healthy pregnancy. So, we're seeing a lot more miscarriages and infertility problems could be from low progesterone.

And, um, and then that will eventually bottom out with menopause because the ovaries are not producing it anymore. And the only place that we have progesterone left in reserves is in the adrenal glands. And so, if the stress has been going on for so long, then even the reserves of the backups of the backups are gone, the progesterone, which is why I see a lot of women going through a more extreme version of menopause than with the night sweats and the hot flashes and all those things that maybe didn't even have to happen.

Because, uh, if we take care of it on, on the earlier end of managing stress levels, going to bed at good times, getting full amount of sleep, women need eight to 10 hours of sleep. We will, I will just go ahead and say that because our hormones are very independent, dependent on our adrenal function. Men, they don't really have to rely on their adrenals as much as their other, other sex hormones and locations.

Um, so they don't have to deal with it as much as the women. So, we're constantly tied to a function of our adrenals really affects our sex hormones like crazy. And we're not getting the right amount of sleep.

Then we're going to have high stress levels, high cortisol, and then the high cortisol is where it is at the sex hormones. So, we need those reserves to be replenished and the, and the cortisol levels drop and melatonin kicks in and we're going to sleep so much better and sleep so much deeper.

Laura Dugger: (27:12 - 27:36) Wow. This is fascinating. And I love how you're even celebrating the cycle and how God created it because I'm forgetting one of them, but I heard that menstrual blood was tested, and they saw that it was detoxifying plastics and pesticides. And there was one other thing that the body was using to eliminate. And so that's a reminder just to be grateful for that too.

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (27:36 - 29:08) And, uh, the birth control pill, it's a temporary fix. There are alternative forms of birth control that do not have the synthetic hormones that are good, good options, you know, and the synthetic hormones though, I've firsthand seen it with patients negatively impact the thyroid. And a lot of them have had to end up on thyroid medication just simply due to years and years of birth control and it impacting the thyroid and the cellular health as well as the lining of the gut and a lot of other side effects that I'm not a weight gain, different things.

And then the body not even being able to menstruate and fully excrete things. And, um, or even, you know, the, the cycle is an indicator, I think for women very much of like your monthly health, like how, how am I doing? Like if I'm having a really bad period, um, likely it was something that I had done this past month.

Okay. Did I eat right? Was I sleeping?

Was I incredibly stressed? Usually, you can trace it back to that. Now there's obviously other cases where, you know, PCOS and ruptured ovaries and different things like that, or ruptured cysts on the ovaries, sorry.

Um, then that can contribute to longer term diseases, but on a, it's almost like a litmus test to see how, how our bodies are doing.

Laura Dugger: (29:09 - 29:27) I like that perspective. And Emily, you're so great at giving proactive tips and I love easy wins. So, what are some of the best practices that you recommend for women to support healthy hormones and healthy adrenals in our bodies all month long?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (29:30 - 33:32) One is glucose management. So, protein, I cannot emphasize it enough protein sources, um, you know, good, healthy, as much as you can, grass fed organic meat. So, you're not getting the synthetic hormones from them because who knows what they're being fed and what they're being pumped with, but those sources, um, protein, other sources of protein, um, that's going to give you up to 15 hours of energy.

So, that is incredible. As far as eating for energy, I will say, if you can do that, that's, um, it's incredible. It's a game changer, eating for energy, protein, vegetables give us up to five to six hours of energy.

And then carbs, carbs give us, um, like if we had a piece of fruit, it only lasts in the system for 15 minutes. Or, um, potato chips, something like that, 15 minutes, that's not very long. And then the body says, ”I'm hungry again.” Then we ended up overeating because we just had the carbs and we're not full.

And so, that's why pairing the meals around the protein and then the fiber and then a healthy fat. Or like the protein, the fiber and a complex carb (sweet potato, brown rice, quinoa). Things like that is going to stabilize the blood sugar. So, there will not be cortisol stress levels spiked when we don't eat for too long, then it can cause the body to go into, um, stress overload. And there's four different stages of adrenal fatigue, cortisol, and that can affect the body very much.

So, spikes and crashes in glucose spike and crash the cortisol and then spikes and cortisol will steal your progesterone and then cause imbalances because progesterone keeps the estrogen in check. So, then you got estrogen and progesterone imbalances. Then there's DHEA, which is the other hormone that's made in the adrenals. So, sometimes DHEA, DHEA is incredible for building muscle, keeping muscle concentration, memory.

It's, wonderful at libido, all sorts of those things. Now, DHEA just decreases as we age. It's the precursor to testosterone as well, but it's also made in the adrenal glands.

And so, the more we can regulate cortisol and adrenal, sometimes high levels of stress, we've got to go back and think. Okay, um, we might not even feel stress, but if there's been physical abuse, emotional abuse, or sexual trauma, those are serious things that the body will hold on to. And unless you have gone to process, I recommend getting a Christian counselor and process those things because the body can literally still be holding onto it 20, 30, even 40 years, if it's not been let go and given to Jesus. And, um, so that is also a huge, we can't dismiss that or just try and fix the physical.

If there's been some stressors and the body has just been in survival mode and has to just keep going, then maybe it only knows how to live off of high cortisol stress reserves to just keep going. It doesn't, but if you have a hard time falling asleep, a hard time unwinding, feel like you're always on the go, those are like adrenal stages one and two high cortisol, but then that eventually will start to plummet. And then it's, um, you know, more difficult time getting out of bed and jumping straight out crash in the afternoon with energy crash after dinner crash before bed, um, or like wired and tired, like wired the brain's wired.

The body feels tired, but can't go to sleep. Then further stages waking up between 2:00 and 4:00 in the morning could be blood sugar, adrenal issues as well.

Laura Dugger: (33:32 - 33:41) Oh, could you speak a little bit more into that? Could be, the blood sugar related to the adrenal issues if you're waking up at that 2:00 to 4:00 AM time?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (33:42 - 34:47) Yes, it can be, the body signaling that the blood sugars drop too low. And then the cortisol has to, it can signal to the cortisol and the adrenals to spike to just keep the body going, survive. And then all of a sudden cortisol is spiking at night, which it should not, it should be done.

And melatonin should be happening at night and then cortisol in the daytime. So, if there's a cortisol spike because of a glucose crash, then, um, then we need to support it with, a spoonful of almond butter before bed, a handful of nuts, something, some protein before bed is going to, help someone, you know, in the middle of the night, stabilize the blood sugar. It can be a blood sugar issue with, cause blood sugar and cortisol are interconnected, but also should just check your cortisol levels, get a saliva test.

It's that saliva four point, um, test checks for sex hormones and cortisol, or we can.

Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:06) So. Okay. One more thing with that. So, then the blood sugar dropping that low, is that somebody who's maybe completing their closing, their eating window too early in the day, or they're not getting enough sugar throughout the day. Is that what you're saying with, why would it drop to that level and require cortisol?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (35:08 - 36:51) Great question. It would be, it could be the person's not eating enough throughout the day and the body just doesn't have the right. So, if the person was fasting quite frequently and doing that a lot now, everybody, everyone's body is different.

If you have adrenal imbalances, I do not recommend doing fasting because the body is already under stress and then fasting can put extra stress on the body. So then you're like, well, but then they said that if I fast and I should lose weight, and if you're fasting and you're gaining belly fat and you're gaining weight, it's a telltale sign cortisol because high cortisol level, puffy face, um, belly fat, stubborn, you can eat right exercise, try and do everything and it will not leave. That's usually survival mode. Body's trying to self-protect. Um, and so, yeah, so we don't want to be fasting very much if there's cortisol imbalances. Now, if there's not, and if you have your cortisol check, then there's great benefits to doing intermittent fasting and things.

And even biblically spiritually, there's incredible benefits to fasting. The Lord knows there's the cells literally repair themselves, regenerate and can eat up cancer cells. If we put our bodies into that ketosis state for good bit, but that is not something I would recommend doing high intensity exercise, or that's going to put a lot of cortisol stress on the body, high impact, um, or skipping a lot of meals.

So, that could be why the blood sugar is like dropping in the middle of the night.

Laura Dugger: (36:52 - 37:37) I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided.

If you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible. Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support. 

Is there anything else that we haven't gotten to discuss yet that you want to make sure we don't miss out on?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (37:38 - 39:15) So what, when do you know if you're in perimenopause versus menopause? And like I said, if you're a woman in your twenties and you're like, that does not apply to me. Actually, it does because it's just, you don't want to get to menopause and have no reserves.

Progesterone left because you depleted it from high levels of cortisol over the years. So, lifestyle changes, the protein, smaller, more frequent meals, the consistent bedtime, trying to go to bed before midnight, like 10:00 PM is like a sweet spot. 10:00 PM to 2:00 AM is when the liver detoxes, when cholesterol gets flushed, all these different things.

Melatonin window for the body to like fall asleep and stay asleep is between 10 PM and like, there's sometimes it's even earlier. It just depends on the person. And I actually use a little app called Rise. It does a good job kind of helping you track where you're melatonin and when you're awake window, when to cut off eating and when to kind of wear blue light blocking glasses to prevent your body to blue light helps.

We set this in the last one, but blue light actually tells your body to stay awake. So, you don't want to be on your screens too late at night, or your body's going to be sending the signals to stay awake when you're trying to wind down. So, using softer lighting, doing candle lit, doing, you know, just mimicking outside when the sun goes down, we should be going down, going down to bed and sleep when the sun wakes up. That's when we should be getting up as well.

Laura Dugger: (39:15 - 39:38) So, and getting that morning sunlight that we talked about. So important. And I forgot one quick follow-up question. When you talked about cortisol, too high of cortisol contributing to belly fat, that stubborn or puffy face, what would the solution be? Is it just manage your stress better or what's the takeaway there?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (39:38 - 42:39) The takeaway is yes, there's things you can do glucose wise, blood sugar and food that we've talked about. Lifestyle wise, of course. I mean, a ton of it is we're American society that trophies busyness.

And like the Bible literally talks about the importance of rest and the Sabbath and like even humans, we were made on day six, but the first day we were actually doing things, Adam and Eve was day seven, was the day of rest. My dad's a pastor and he actually just gave a sermon on rest and the Sabbath just last week at Harvest Sound. But it was just all about that we were created out of rest.

Like we're there to start doing things out of that place of rest. And we just don't take that time. I mean, it's like, okay, we got to go, go, go, got to take care of the kids, got to go do this, go do this.

How are you doing? Oh, I'm so busy. How about you?

Like, it's almost like a trophy thing to say that, but really like, how about prioritizing that time? And it's so easy, especially as women and mothers to just say, oh, but I just want to take care of everybody else. But like, if you were to have a date with your friend, you wouldn't go overbook it with something else.

You would prioritize that. Are you going to go do something for your child? You're going to prioritize that.

So, I need you to also take time to prioritize your me time, prioritize the time. It's not selfish. It's necessary because you're going to be a better wife.

You're going to be a better mom. You're going to be a better friend. If you take care of the needs, whether that's taking an Epsom salt bath once a week, and that's spending time mourning sunlight or writing a list of gratitude, doing things, write a list of things that bring you joy and just pick two or three of those a day.

Like build that in - life's too short. Literally cortisol will kill you. Also, we didn't talk about that, but it's taking minutes off your life.

So, life's too short to have cortisol, unnecessary cortisol spikes. So, as much as we can,  it's prioritizing that learning the healthy boundaries saying no when needed to, and, not saying yes to everything. So, that is, it's a lot of those lifestyle things.

And then, fine tuning it with a health practitioner is great because everybody's spikes and crashes are in different places. Some people have high cortisol. Some people further on into the adrenal fatigue have low cortisol because the body doesn't have any more cortisol to give.

And that's a whole other list of symptoms of exhaustion and fatigue. And they might need actually glandular support and different, totally different supplements than someone that's got high cortisol, but they can present similarly as far as stubborn weight, puffiness, energy spikes and crashes and different things like that.

Laura Dugger: (42:40 - 43:04) So how incredible to get to follow up with a health professional then, and you are certainly one that we would recommend. And so even if we're out of state, but we could make a first appointment with you and figure out some way to do telehealth, can you just give us your website or share what you have to offer so that we can maybe make a follow-up appointment after this conversation?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (43:05 - 43:38) So it's pureintegrativehealth.com. And I could click on the tab, become a patient, just fill that form out. And then we can talk about a plan if you're in Tennessee, great.

We can just right away, we know you're in person. If you are out of state, I have to see you in person for the first initial eval and then we can come up with some hybrid plan of telemedicine in between visits and legally just need to be able to see you still once a year or something in person, but we could do the rest in telemedicine options.

Laura Dugger: (43:39 - 43:58) So yeah, it's a wonderful option. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Emily, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (43:59 - 46:04) Well, in regards to this topic today with hormones, I would say my Savvy Sauce is actually, it would be around getting that bedtime routine down packed in order to have an eight to 10 hours of like actual sleep because the mind does a brain sweep and gets rid of toxins in the brain between seven and a half hours and nine hours. It's happened somewhere in that window. And so if we're skipping out on sleep, we're missing out.

If you're getting even six hours, you're missing out on the neural brain sweep that actually gets rid of the toxins that prevent Alzheimer's, dementia, a lot of other problems. The metabolism at nighttime, the body literally burns fat at night. We have to get sleeping.

And so, and if you're having problems sleeping, you're like, I want to sleep, but I haven't, then I would recommend start looking into different forms of magnesium. I can't get into it fully today because there's seven different kinds of magnesium, but there are some that will actually help with sleep. And so talk with your practitioner about the best forms that could help you increase your sleep as well, because most of us can be deficient in that and creating that really, really healthy rhythm.

Just knowing your why behind why you're sleeping is also really helpful because it's like, you can hear a lot of people say, you need to get more sleep. I should go to bed, do this, but why? It's actually getting a neural sweep, liver is detoxing, cholesterol is cleansing.

God does an incredible thing with our dreams. We're literally flushing and processing all the things from the day. And so, talk about stress and adrenals.

We got to help heal through our sleep.

Laura Dugger: (46:05 - 46:26) Wow. Thank you for leaving us with that word. There's so much more we could cover.

And ever since our first interaction, you have just been overflowing with kindness and graciousness and generosity with your time and sharing your knowledge. You're so kind, but I have just loved spending this time with you. Thank you so much, Emily, for being my repeat guest.

Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (46:27 - 46:32) Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much, Laura, for having me again. This has been wonderful. I really appreciate it.

Laura Dugger: (46:33 – 50:15) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?

It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?

Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?

We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.

We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.

Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.

I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.

I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes including where you can read scripture that describes this process.

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

269. Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston

*Disclaimer* This episode contains some mature themes and listener discretion is advised.

2 Corinthians 1:4 NIRV "He comforts us in all our troubles. Now we can comfort others when they are in trouble. We ourselves receive comfort from God."

*Transcript Below*

Questions and Topics We Cover:

Casey and Meygan Caston are the Co-Founders of Marriage365. Casey and Meygan were perfect examples of what not to do in marriage. Three years into marriage, they found themselves having racked up more than $250,000 in debt, fighting constantly, and were ready to call it quits. Despite the 12 failed marriages between their parents, they knew this wasn't the legacy they wanted for themselves or their children. They began reading and educating themselves on how to do marriage the right way. The result of their journey is Marriage365, where they millions of people worldwide through their books, social media, retreats, and their online streaming service, Marriage365.

Marriage 365 Website

Marriage 365 App

Marriage 365 Books

Marriage 365 Coaching

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

Sample of Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce:

4 Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life With Your Spouse With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen

5 Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau 

6 Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma

89 Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery

108 Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder

135 Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand

155 Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1

156 Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2

158 Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta

165 Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas

186 Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler

218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: An Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma

Special Patreon Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder

252 Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Transcript*

Music: (0:00 – 0:11)

Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:15) 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse.

To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Casey and Meygan.

Casey Caston: 

Thanks for having us. Excited to be here.

Laura Dugger: So, thrilled to have both of you, and let's just dive right into one of your sweet spots. How can open-ended questions change a marriage?

Casey Caston: (1:16 - 2:33) 

Yeah, well, if you think about when we first met somebody that we fell in love with, fell attracted to that first date, as you're sitting across the table, you are looking at that person with so much curiosity. Like, who is this person? What are their hopes and their dreams and their life experiences?

What are they afraid of? Where are they going in life? And that curiosity drove us to ask really good open-ended questions.

Like, tell me more about yourself. It's funny because we were just reading in Proverbs this morning that in a man's heart, he has a purpose, but a man of understanding draws from the deep wells to pull that out. And I just, I always think about how a great question plums the deep wells of a man's heart or woman's heart.

And that attraction, that energy we feel, helps us with asking great questions. But then what happens is when we get married and we move into the wash, rinse, repeat of childcare and chores and, you know, the mundaneness of going to work, coming home, dinner, like, it can really sap all of the romance out of a relationship. And so, what happens is we fall into asking really boring questions.

Meygan Caston: (2:33 - 2:34) 

Like, how was your day?

Casey Caston: (2:34 - 2:36) 

What's picking up the kids?

Meygan Caston: (2:36 - 2:37) 

What's for dinner? Yeah.

Casey Caston: (2:38 - 3:18) 

So, we realize that when the well is dry, so to speak, you're not asking those great questions. We need prompts. We need an outside prompt because I don't think naturally we would ask great questions to spark this, you know, connecting conversation.

And I will tell you too, that if you just dropped in and, you know, just ask your spouse, like, “Hey, so, tell me some boundaries we need to set up with your parents.” People are going to be like, “Excuse me, where did that question come from? And what's the question behind the question?

What's your motivation here?” But those are conversations we need to have. We just need prompts.

So, yeah.

Laura Dugger: (3:19 - 3:32) 

Well, I love that response. And I'm also curious after working with so many married couples, what have you seen as that connection between these amazing prompts for open-ended questions and emotional intimacy?

Meygan Caston: (3:34 - 4:20) 

Yeah. Well, kind of like what Casey was mentioning about, um, just that curiosity of getting to know each other. I think the other part of asking those open-ended questions and having these deeper conversations is really about intentionality.

Like you still care about me. You still want to know about my heart. Well, for us, 25 years later, I still care about you.

I still love you. And I think that of course, as women, we long for that emotional connection. And I don't think that men realize it, but they actually long for that too.

And it's creating a safe place for spouses to share, to cry, to even, um, dream together about their future. And I think, again, if we don't give ourselves those opportunities and we're not intentional with that, we get stuck in the mundaneness of marriage.

Casey Caston: (4:20 - 5:03) 

But, uh, and I would add to that, that curiosity, Meygan, I've talked about how curiosity is the pursuit of something. Right. And we all long to be desired to be pursued.

I mean, that is, that underlying communication is so powerful in relationships, because if you think about it, if you're not being pursued and your spouse isn't curious, I mean, that's like the, the heart of apathy. It's like, I don't care. And I know that people aren't intentionally trying to communicate that, but when you feel that, like my spouse doesn't really care about what I dream about or what I'm hoping to achieve this year, they just come home and they just watch TV or they're on their phone.

Meygan Caston: (5:04 - 5:18) 

Right. That communicates a lot non-verbally. And so, that's why these open-ended questions are something that we should never stop being a learner of each other and of ourselves.

And that will provide that emotional intimacy.

Laura Dugger: (5:19 - 5:45) 

That's so good. And obviously your resources are amazing. I would love, because you have these 365 Connecting Questions for Couples.

And so, I want to just hear maybe three of these questions that come to mind for you guys, especially as you've heard, these are the ones that tend to unlock something deeper in the conversation.

Meygan Caston: (5:46 - 6:07) 

Absolutely. So, August 3rd is, are you someone who spends a lot of time in deep thought, processing things before making a decision, or do you tend to make quick decisions? Why or why not?

That question has genuinely sparked so much conversation between us and even like with our kids and other couples. Maybe you can explain why.

Casey Caston: (6:07 - 6:11) 

Yeah. Well, I'm Mr. Impulsivity, so.

Meygan Caston: (6:11 - 6:29) 

Yeah, you are. Where I, I don't, I wouldn't consider myself a deep thinker, but I definitely like to make pros and cons lists and think through things. But if you think about a dynamic between a husband and a wife, you know, there are so many decisions that you make together, small and large, your whole life, every day.

Casey Caston: (6:29 - 6:30) 

Decision-making is huge in relationships.

Meygan Caston: (6:31 - 6:57) 

And it's an everyday thing that couples are tackling. And it's important to know that no one is better than the other. It's not that a deep thinker is better than a more impulsive person.

It's kind of more just naturally how you are. Have you always been this way? Do you like that about yourself?

Wow. You know, well, when it comes to these bigger decisions, I do spend, make more time, you know, thinking through and pros and cons. Oh, well, with small decisions, I'm more impulsive.

I mean, you could just talk about that for hours and hours.

Casey Caston: (6:57 - 7:01)

Yeah. But what's interesting is I tend to think more futuristic and big picture.

Meygan Caston: (7:01 - 7:01) 

Yes.

Casey Caston: (7:01 - 7:03) 

Even though I'm impulsive in the moment.

Meygan Caston: (7:03 - 7:05) 

And I cannot, I can't do that.

Casey Caston: (7:05 - 7:06) 

You are Ms. Realist.

Meygan Caston: (7:06 - 7:08) 

Just tell me today, tell me this week.

Casey Caston: (7:09 - 7:10) 

I can't think about this fun sponge.

Meygan Caston: (7:11 - 7:11) 

Yes. Yeah.

Casey Caston: (7:12 - 7:15) 

Because I'm like, let's dream big. And she's like, yeah, but what's happening today?

Meygan Caston: (7:16 - 7:49) 

Yeah. Yeah. Another great question is January 18th.

How can we romance each other during the day in anticipation of sex? Because as we all know, us ladies, we need the foreplay. But again, I think that husbands also enjoy the foreplay.

But I don't think that couples are having these conversations. I think they think a foreplay is, well, once we enter into the bedroom, you know, and what we like to say is it's anything positive is foreplay. So, a thoughtful text, you know, a flirty I'm going to grab your hand to empty out the dishwasher.

Casey Caston: (7:49 - 7:50) 

Amen.

Meygan Caston: (7:50 - 7:55) 

Yeah. You know, it's those kinds of conversations. But like, I would never think of asking you that.

Casey Caston: (7:56 - 7:56) 

Right.

Meygan Caston: (7:56 - 7:58) 

Right. Thankfully for those.

Casey Caston: (7:58 - 8:10) 

But as you know, Laura, like couples that need to talk about their sex life. And if you don't talk about your sex life, most oftentimes there's a lot of assumptions. And that leads to, you know, dysfunction.

Meygan Caston: (8:11 - 9:14) 

Well, and missed expectations. Totally. Yeah.

Oh, so, kind of another one of those things, like with making decisions. Every single couple has differences. And we always tell people Casey, and I are more different than alike.

I think people see us online and whatnot. And they hear, oh, we're both extroverts. We are.

So, we have some similarities. We're both stubborn, very competitive, both competitive. But in the day-to-day operations of who Casey and Meygan are, we make decisions, we run our lives, run our business, run our business.

We are completely opposite. And what I think it's good to do for couples is to actually own your differences rather than shy away from them or make yourselves feel bad, like, oh, I wish we were the same. I get it.

You know, we actually are attracted to those things when we're dating. That's why opposites attract. But then when we get married, it's like, why doesn't he do everything the same way?

I do it because I do it the right way. That's what we think. Right.

Casey Caston: (9:15 - 9:21) 

Well, you heard the joke that marriage is about becoming one. And in the earlier years, it's about which one.

Meygan Caston: (9:21 - 10:14) 

Yeah. Which one? Which figure out?

Yeah. And so, that question really allows you to identify your differences, but then go, how do they balance each other out? And I think for me, as someone who is organized, type A Casey's very spontaneous.

If we were both type A and structured, we wouldn't have a lot of fun. We really wouldn't. His spontaneity really brings out that side of me.

But if we were both spontaneous, our bills would never be paid, and we'd be broke. So, you know, I'm a I'm a saver. He's a spender.

You can see the balance in that. It's good that we're both those things. Right.

I'm on time. He's late. We could continue going on and on and on and on.

But I think that he's a risk taker. I'm a complete play it safer. And so, those really draw out a beautiful balance in our marriage versus trying to change one another.

So, I hope that question sparks listeners to really ask your spouse that and have fun with the conversation.

Laura Dugger: (10:15 - 11:03) 

Well, you chose three great ones. I love it. And they draw out such different parts of our personality.

You highlighted where Casey's more futuristic. Meygan, you're more present. Some people will connect with questions that direct them more past oriented.

And so, our orientation to time comes out and the meta conversations, the talking like having the conversation about your conversation. Just so much goodness. And yes, especially with sexual intimacy.

So, many couples report that it is much harder to engage in conversation about sex rather than just have sex. And like you said, missed expectations can be one of the blow ups there, among many other things. So, you have questions that don't shy away from all forms of intimacy.

Meygan Caston: (11:04 - 11:10) 

Yeah. And to also say we have a lot of fun questions, too. Like, tell me about what your bedroom looked like when you were a teenager.

Casey Caston: (11:11 - 11:12) 

That's a great one. I love that one.

Meygan Caston: (11:12 - 11:47) 

Let's talk couples. If you had a really hard day with the kids or at work, pick a fun question. You don't have to go by the date.

If you don't like the question, it's triggering, then flip to the next one. But going back to that emotional intimacy and connection that you were talking about, Laura, is you have to have those deep questions and those conversations. And you did when you were dating, because if you went on a date with your husband and you were like, hey, tell me, you know, what do you want to do when you retire?