250. I Like Giving with Brad and Drew Formsma

Proverbs 11:24 (MSG) "The world of the generous gets larger and larger; the world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller."

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

What are the earliest seeds of generosity that were planted in your life?

What are the seven forms of generosity you write about?

What are some of the most practical ways we can pass this lifestyle along to our children?

Brad Formsma is the author of the best-selling book "I Like Giving: The Transforming Power of a Generous Life" and “Everyday Generosity: Becoming a Generous Family in a Selfie World.” He is the Founder of I Like Giving, an organization with the mission to inspire people to live generously. Millions of people across the globe have been impacted by the work of I Like Giving through its Generous Business, Generous Family and Generous Classroom initiatives. Brad is also the host of the leading podcast: The WOW Factor® “Words of Wisdom” from extraordinary leaders to help people grow in business and beyond.

Brad has had the opportunity to speak at businesses and conferences across the U.S. to share the message of living generously. He combines personal insights, humor, and the power of story with practical tools to help increase engagement and put generosity into practice in our everyday lives. Brad and his wife Laura live in Southern California and are the proud parents of 3 adult children.

Brad is also on the Forbes list for 20 speakers you shouldn't miss. Read the article here.

Drew Formsma is widely known as a voice to Generation Z and a peer who can communicate with them unlike any adult. He began speaking with his dad in 2016 at the age of fourteen to audiences of tens of thousands of people around the world on the simple idea that generosity is the key to a better life. Drew lives in Southern California with his family and has set his sights on playing the top 100 golf courses in America by the age of forty.

I Like Giving Website

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey

Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson

How 2 Questions Can Grow Your Business and Change Your Life with Author, Pastor, and Podcaster, Jeff Henderson

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

249. Stories Series Conclusion: Now What? Living as Global Christians with Todd Ahrend of The Traveling Team

**Transcription Below**

Acts 1:8 (NIV) "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Questions and Topics We Cover:

What does it actually look like for you to live with eternal eyes and how can we grow in living the same way?

Will you teach us about these four categories: goer, sender, mobilizer, and welcomer?

Years ago, you shared a story about one international student that has stuck with me for nearly a decade. Will you retell that for us now?

Dr. Todd Ahrend graduated from Northeastern State University, has a Masters from Dallas Theological Seminary and a Doctorate from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary.

He is the founder and international Director of The Traveling Team, a national missions mobilization movement.  He and his wife, Jessica, have spent over two decades traveling both nation-wide and abroad, speaking to thousands of people about involvement in world evangelization. Todd has exposure in over sixty countries and has lived in the Middle East.

He is the author of The Abrahamic Revolution and In This Generation. Todd and Jessica have six children.

Email Dr. Todd Ahrend to speak at your event: [email protected]

The Traveling Team Website

The Missions Course

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on our Website

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sue Neihouser

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00]

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17]

Laura Dugger: Thank you to the Sue Neihouser team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors. 

We are wrapping up this fascinating stories series today with my guest, Dr. Todd Ahrend. I'm also going to go ahead and just give you his email address up front, because I'm assuming many of you will also want to reach out to him and invite him to be a speaker at your church or at your event, and he has given me permission to share his email address. So it is [email protected], and 1040 is all spelled out. I'll link to it in the show notes so you can see it as well. [00:01:17] 

But Dr. Todd Ahrend is an author, speaker, and founder of The Traveling Team, which is a national missions mobilization movement. He's gifted at giving us an eternal perspective, which changes everything, and he has stories to share, just like the other guests in this series. But Todd is also going to wrap up this series by answering the question, now what, for each of us as we've encountered these testimonies. 

After concluding this conversation, I pray that we are all clearer on what the next step is in our lives and that we have answers to this question, how then shall we live?

Here's our chat. 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Todd.

Todd Ahrend: Well, thank you, Laura. Great to be here.

Laura Dugger: I'm so excited to get a chat today. Will you begin by taking us back in your life and share a little bit about both before and after you were following Christ? [00:02:20] 

Todd Ahrend: Yes. Well, I'll tell you what, man, I was not raised in a Christian home. At age 16, I went to church with a friend of mine, became a Christ follower, thought God wanted to bless me, but I didn't realize He wanted to change me. And so it wasn't until college that I got plugged into a campus ministry and saw what discipleship was, like, oh my gosh, how to share the gospel. They just sort of trained me in the basics. And from there, I really became ruined with wanting to do ministry. 

So here I am getting my degree, but at the same time, trying to share Christ with my fraternity, trying to start a campus movement. After that, I just thought, "Man, all I want to do is minister to students." And so for the past, like, 25 years, my wife and I have been leading a ministry called The Traveling Team that we started in 1999 that just helps college students with global vision. [00:03:29] 

Laura Dugger: I think it's so fascinating when the Lord really grows our heart for this age group in a time where He went and He saved us. So will you share more about the work that you and your wife get to do with The Traveling Team?

Todd Ahrend: Oh, man, yes. You know, when you look at the world and the lostness and just the extreme unreached, and you ask the question, how in the world is someone going to go there, learn the majority language, learn the minority language, translate scripture, you think, Man, you got to get someone who is energized, is ready, is young, is like, I can do this. So we just thought, man, where do workers come from to reach the extreme unreached?

And we just thought, man, there's something about college students. They're the most sendable, the most mobile, the most passionate, really. When you think about it, it's like, I'll go to Yemen, you know. [00:04:33] We just thought, man, let's go to college campuses and speak, give a 35-minute talk at the pre-existing ministries that are doing a fantastic job, The Cru, the InterVarsity, the BCMs, the Chiapas, the Wesley Foundations. Let's go in there and give a 30-minute message on God's story and scripture of reaching the nations from Genesis 12 to Revelation 5:9. And then let's invite them to go spend a summer. 

So every semester, we send three teams out and we speak on 120 campuses a semester. 120 campuses. So tonight, there's a team speaking at UC Berkeley, there's a team speaking at University of Wisconsin, a team speaking at University of Charleston in South Carolina. 

We just challenge students with, "Hey, this is what the world looks like. You're getting an engineer degree. Would you consider going to an internship in India this summer and praying about a lifetime?" [00:05:37]

Our ministry is called The Traveling Team. We've been doing it for 25 years. And it has been such a joy to cast vision to these students.

Laura Dugger: As you're casting this vision to them, what would you say is the purpose that you hope for them?

Todd Ahrend: Well, I think our big purpose would be that they would live a global Christian life. Like, what does that mean to live, whether you're a nurse, a doctor, an engineer, or a full-time pastor? That's sort of our big-picture goal.

But because we're talking to 18- to 22-year-olds who have really their life in front of them, we can say, Man, would you consider giving the next 15 years of your life to going long term, to learning a language, planning a church, translating scripture? 

So if we were at Montana State and we got 250 students that we're speaking to, 90% are going to be going into the workforce in America. [00:06:40] They're going to be what we would call the senders. But 10% are going to be the goers. So we're sort of targeting both groups. We're saying, Hey, be a global Christian. But some of you, you need to get a passport, get on a plane, and go and plan a church.

Laura Dugger: And you called out some specific ages. So with this population, you really are connecting with a very special group. So I'd love to hear your perspective on what you've learned about the reasons why people, specifically between these ages of 18 and 22, are so instrumental to global impact with the good news about Jesus.

Todd Ahrend: Yeah. Oh, there is just—I mean, you talk about The Savvy Sauce. There is something savvy sauce about that age group. I mean, I don't understand it. But when you look at history, over the last 300 years, every major missions movement has been launched by 18- to 22-year-olds. I don't understand it. I just study it. [00:07:48] 

I spent three years writing a book called In This Generation that just basically tracks every major missions movement and how it goes back to universities. And you just kind of scratch your head, and you're like, Okay. I mean, think about this, Laura. In 1806, if you were a college student, you had nine colleges you could go to. That's it. I mean, we hadn't even founded Mississippi yet. You had nine colleges. You could go to Harvard, Princeton, Dartmouth, Yale, Cornell. I mean, that was it, right? 

Well, there is also a college called Williams College in Williamstown, Massachusetts. And a young man named Samuel Mills goes there. He's 18. He's a freshman. There's no mission agency. America has not sent one missionary. If you were a college student in 1806 and you wanted to be a missionary, you had to go to London, and then they had to send you. We didn't have a mission agency. [00:08:47] 

But yet in 1806 at Williams College, Samuel Mills starts the first five mission agencies and then launches, in 1812, the first missionary to India with Adoniram Judson. And then fast forward 1886, John Mott, Robert Wilder, Grace Wilder, these college students that were sophomores, juniors, and seniors and they decide they're going to launch really a second movement after the Samuel Mills movement of 1806. They're going to launch a second movement. Are you ready for this? They sends out 20,000 to the world, and then 80,000 stayed behind to send them. I mean, that's not even counting the Cru, the InterVarsities, the Wycliffe Bible translators. I mean, this is just two of the first. 

And so I think there's just something about that age group where you and I know and many of your listeners know the simple truth is this. The older you get, the more stuff you get, the harder it gets to risk. It's hard to risk when you've got two kids, mortgage, and soccer practice. [00:10:01] It's hard to risk going to Saudi Arabia for 10 years. But that age group, they don't have a ton. They have a cracked iPhone. That's it. That's it. And so they are just more willing to risk. And I guess risk is right because God loves risk.

Laura Dugger: I love that. Will you say just a little bit more, God loves risk?

Todd Ahrend: Yeah. Risk is right. I remember, I mean, for 20 years, Laura, for 20 years, my wife wanted to adopt, and I was saying no. I was like, "I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. We already have five kids. That's a basketball team." And she's like, "Every basketball team needs a sub." I mean, she prayed. I mean, she did so much.

And really, a friend of mine took me to coffee, and we just... there was no purpose, just to catch up. And I told him about adoption, and he's like, "Man, when was the last time you risked something? Like you live in your safety circle. Risk is right." [00:11:04] That just changed me. I was like, oh my gosh, man. I do. I mean, I'm a middle-aged man in the middle of America with a middle savings account and middle of safety. And I'm like, you're right, I haven't risked anything lately. So we ended up adopting a five-year-old boy from Asia. 

I just think there's something about saying, Lord, I am coming out of my safety circle, I'm going to say yes to you. And for all of us, it's different areas. But for college students that we talk to, we're really challenging to come out of the American dream and to move east. So that's our challenge to them and sort of our challenge to others.

Laura Dugger: I love it, Todd. You brought up your family, so let's go there for a moment as well. Because this week I've really been thinking about the parable – and I'm just going to completely paraphrase – where the seed falls on different places, four different categories. [00:12:06] But the last one it falls in the good soil, and it can produce the harvest of 30 or 60 or 100-fold. 

So as I'm thinking in my brain, okay, these college students, this age, this is so impactful. Let's back it up. You have six children in your home that you and your wife are homeschooling. What are you doing to cultivate that good soil in hopes of preparing them even so they're ready at any time when God calls them, but even in this specific age group of college students that you work with, they're ready for a yes to God, whatever He asks.

Todd Ahrend: Well, raising kids, whether public, private, or homeschool, it's never easy. But for us, we started off by saying, okay, they're middle names. We're going to give their middle names missionary names so that they have someone to look up to that's actually in their name. [00:13:06] So all six of our kids are named after missionaries. 

Then not only that, but just being proactive and saying, okay, when we're at the library... I mean, we train our kids, even we're at the library and you see someone who looks, acts, or talks different, you go up to them and ask them, Where are you from? 

We host international students in our home. I mean, this Thanksgiving, Laura, it was hilarious. My wife's like, "Okay, honey, I hope you're okay with this. We're having a girl from Syria, a girl from Uganda, and a girl named Bindi who's a Hindi." And I'm like, "Okay, this is going to be crazy." 

So we had a round of Thanksgiving table. We had no meat, but we had a Hindu, a Syrian, and a Ugandan. And we're training them in theology. Right now the three oldest are going through Grudem systematic theology with my wife just to sort of help that foundation. So, I mean, we do all that we can. 

My kids all have passports. They're international travelers. [00:14:08] They're going with me to Portugal in September. So we just do our best to prepare them for what's coming, but also to say, Hey, what really matters? And that is the word of God in the souls of people. That's what we give our time to.

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

[00:14:26]

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[00:17:03]

Laura Dugger: Just thinking of either your parenting experience or your work with The Traveling Team, what would you say are some of the most memorable God stories that stand out to you?

Todd Ahrend: Man, I got one this week that knocked me off my feet. It was crazy. We've been doing The Traveling Team for 25 years. We're literally probably one of the most unknown and hidden ministries. Because even our name, when we started the ministry, we decided to call it even something nebulous, The Traveling Team. So that when we went into a Cru or a BCM or a church, that church could just say, Hey, this is The Traveling Team and it felt like we were a part of their ministry already. Like, Oh, is this the Cru traveling team? Is this the intervarsity traveling team? Is this the BCM? So it's real nebulous. Most people don't even know how to say it. The Traveling Team. Some people say, oh, travel team or whatever. So we're just so hidden. [00:18:02] 

But what's crazy is I got this email this week, and it was the top 10 organizations or people who have done the most in reaching the unreached in the last 20 years. It was specifically the 10 top people or organizations that have done most in sending students to the unreached. And I looked... I mean, John Piper was on the list. David Platt was on the list. Perspectives was on the list. Ralph Winter was on the list. And literally what caught my eye was number one was The Traveling Team. And I was like, "What? Are you joking?" 

I mean, I love Piper. I love Platt. Those guys are my heroes. But to say that this email came across my desk, and number one... because that's all we do. I mean, you think you speak on 120 campuses a semester for the last 25 years, a million college students, and one message: The nations need you. [00:19:11] God is waiting for your yes. 

Pioneers, which is a major mission agency, they brought me into Orlando and said, "Hey, we want you to speak to all our new recruits," and I said yes. I got there and they looked at me and said, "Hey, do you know why we brought you in?" I said, "No." And they said, "Because The Traveling Team has recruited 40 percent of these students."

We were at the Cru headquarters in Orlando, and they treated us like gold. They were like, "We love The Traveling Team." We think 35% to 40% of all our goers have been impacted by you guys." And so I'm just sitting here going, Oh, my gosh, like in 1999, a college student, my wife and I just got married after I graduated. I'm sitting at my desk. We decided to name it The Traveling Team. And now, 25 years later, we're hearing these God-sized things that we never would have imagined.

Laura Dugger: That is incredible. And how encouraging and exciting. [00:20:13] So congratulations. What an awesome email to open.

Todd Ahrend: Oh, so, so fun.

Laura Dugger: And then I'm curious, even with those mountaintop experiences, and I'm sure there's valleys, what does it actually look like day to day for you to live with eternal eyes? How can all of us listening grow and live in the same way?

Todd Ahrend: Well, I'd say for many of us who are Christ followers, the world pulls you to itself every day. I mean, the world pulls you to itself every day. There are four words that I try not to say during the day, but they sort of come out in my heart. I fight against these four words. 

The first word that comes out is as soon as I get up in the morning, I look at my savings. The first word I think is savings. [00:21:13] I go into my phone, I go into my app, and I look at my savings and I say, Grow, little guy, grow. For some reason, my heart... I love my savings. I'll look at it four times a day. 

And then I go downstairs, and I make a cup of coffee, and my six kids come downstairs. And my second word comes out, which is safety. Keep them safe. And then I go to work, and I think, Oh, my third word comes out, resume. Lord, make me more famous than all my friends. And then I get home, and the fourth word comes out, relax. 

So I look at my own life, and it's like every day I'm consumed with savings, safety of my kids, my own resume, and my own relaxation. And then God is like, Hey, Matthew 28:18-20, make disciples of all nations. And I'm like, well, Lord, I will as long as it doesn't affect my savings, safety, resume, and free time. [00:22:16] And He's like, oh, it does. 

So I think living with this eternal eyes is saying, Man, Lord, I need to find out what matters to you and make it matter to me. Are the things I'm living for worth Christ dying for? Have I reduced the Christian life to just saving, safety, resume, and my free time? 

And I think of Romans 15:20. I mean, Paul the apostle, missions wasn't on his radar. Doing three tours across the Roman Empire and planting churches, that wasn't what he thought he was going to be doing. But when he met Jesus, he got a new Lord, and a new Lord means a new mission. I mean, a new Lord means a new mission. So Romans 15:20, "I make it my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ is not known." Like it's a fight. I have to make it. I have to desire to want to go to the unreached, pray for the unreached, give to the unreached, because the world pulls me to itself. [00:23:24] 

Laura Dugger: I'm curious then, even if you look at flipping those words, do you have any handles for us to grab onto to replace that with that can give us that vision?

Todd Ahrend: Oh, that's so good. I don't know, man. I mean, wow. Maybe God's word, God's world, and God's work. Maybe those three.

Laura Dugger: That's so good. I can tend to fall into speaking Christianese without even realizing it, so I'd love for you to clarify this language. What is the difference between reached and unreached?

Todd Ahrend: So reached and unreached. You know, I thought the world was made up of the lost and the saved. But the world is actually made up of the reached and the unreached. The difference between reached and unreached would be... a reached person would be someone who is in Frankfurt, Germany. They are not a Christ follower. They don't know where a Bible study is. [00:24:39] But if they wanted to, they could go to the embassy suites in Frankfurt, open the drawer and find a Bible in German. They could meet a Christian in their apartment complex. They could find a German-speaking church, and they have access to the gospel. They're not Christ followers, but they are reached in the fact that they have access. So when you think of reached, think of access. 

The opposite of that would be like a 16-year-old girl in Saudi Arabia. She'll never hold an Arabic Bible. She'll never meet a Christian that speaks Arabic. She'll never be invited to an Arabic-speaking church. She doesn't even know how to get there. She has no access. 

So the reached have access, and they're lost, many of them, by their own choice. They don't want it. The unreached don't have access, and they're lost really by our choice of not going, praying, and giving. [00:25:43] 

There's 10,000 reached people groups across the world. 10,000 of them would be reached. 7,000 would be considered unreached people groups. And so for me and you and the listener, we need to think about how can we live strategically to see both the reached, our near neighbors in our backyard, and the unreached know Christ. And so how can we live reaching the reached and the unreached?

Laura Dugger: Well, and that makes me think of a local Perspectives class, which is where I first heard you speak many years ago. And it was the first time that I had even been introduced to these four categories. And they're goer, sender, mobilizer, and welcomer. So, Todd, can you tell us about all four?

Todd Ahrend: Yeah. As you think about a global Christian, we need to think about those categories, the goer, the sender, the mobilizer, and the welcomer. [00:26:54] The goer is what many of your listeners probably think when they take a mission. It's like, Oh, you get on a plane. You fly over salt water. You learn a language. You plant a church. And yes, that's a goer. 

Typically, we would classify you as a goer. A goer would be someone who's going two years or longer. So two years is about the normal time it takes you to learn a language. So a goer would be someone who's two years or longer going to the unreached or the reached parts of the world. 

The sender is the person who stays but gives sacrificially. The sender is not just tithing. Like we tell people, it's not about tithing. It's about sending. So because you are giving sacrificially, you've got to be well-read on missions. You've got to be well-prayed up. You've got to know where God's working, where He's not. You've got to know where the money is going in missions. You've got to know where the unreached are, where the reached are. You've got to know where the Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, and Chinese world is. [00:28:01] 

To be a good sender, because you're sending resources and you don't have unlimited resources, you need to be learning and praying so that you can give effectively. It's not like just, Oh, my niece is going here. I'm going to send some cash.

A serious sender is like, okay, where's the unreached? What are the needs? Who are some of the best investments going there? And how can I fuel what God's doing? So that's a sender. 

Then you have the mobilizer, which is the one who's inviting bored and busy believers to be involved in God's mission. The mobilizer looks at the Christian who's just like, yeah, man, I go to church. I'm in a Bible study, and I eat a Chick-fil-A. That's what I do. The mobilizer is saying, Man, no, there's more to life. I want to invite you to come to Indonesia with me and see. Get involved in this missions program at our church. Read this biography with me. When we study the Bible, I want to show you God's heart for the world. [00:29:01] 

So the mobilizer basically has a passion for the world and a passion to pass it on. And they're just raising awareness, encouraging believers. I tell people behind every missionary is a mobilizer. You're not born a missionary. Missionaries are made, not born. And mobilizers are the ones who do it. So The Traveling Team, that's specifically we are a mobilization ministry. All we love to do is mobilize. 

And then you have that fourth category, welcoming. I mean, 1.2 million international students are studying here from, I think, about 180 countries. 1.2 million. So if you live in college towns, they're easy to find. But, man, for many of us in our cities, we have refugees, international students, and immigrants. 

And so we would just encourage people, man, have eyes to see.[00:30:03] You know, who's on your kid's soccer team? Who do you work with? Who do you go to the grocery store with? Who do you see in that aisle? And just initiate and welcome them and befriend them. 

So those would be the four main categories: the goer, the sender, the mobilizer, and the welcomer.

Laura Dugger: Well, I think it was on your website, thetravelingteam.org, and there's a section of articles. And within one of them, it was written, "The sender starts the story." So will you also unpack that a bit?

Todd Ahrend: Oh, yes. I mean, wow. I'm reading Romans and Paul says, how can they hear unless they're sent? He's writing to the Church of Rome. He wants to go to Spain, and he wants Rome to be his new sending base because Antioch is way too far away to send them. So he's writing Romans to have Rome support him as he goes to Spain. [00:31:04] And he says, How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news, referring basically to himself as he goes to Spain. And then he says, man, they can't believe unless they hear. You're right. You can't believe unless you hear something. You can't hear something unless someone speaks it, obviously, because there'd be nothing to hear. And then he says, man, I can't even speak the gospel unless you send me. 

So I'm studying that passage, and a church invited me to give a talk on the power of the sender, and I literally just thought, oh, my gosh, when the unreached or reached, the first domino that tips is the sender. The sender starts the story. I mean, that's the power of the sender. You get to look out, and the girl that says, man, I'm going to Jordan, I'm going to learn Arabic, I want to be a minister to Muslims, and she's in your living room inviting you to support her, you get to go, man, we're going to give you $300. Go, go, go. You get to fuel her and start the story. So such a privilege to be a sender. [00:32:13] 

Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out. You just give so much energy and purpose to all four of those, so I really like how you draw that out. 

Also, just continuing with that Perspectives class, I remember they emphasize how the living God is a missionary God. And during that same class you taught, you also expanded my view by teaching how all Christians are to live as global Christians even if we never travel overseas. So will you clarify and expound upon the biblical reasons for this claim?  [00:33:14] 

Todd Ahrend: Oh, wow, yes. I mean, Genesis 1-11, you can summarize it in four words: creation, fall, flood, nations. Genesis 1-11 is just Creation, the Fall of Man, the Flood, and Nations. And then Genesis 12 with Abraham and God saying to Abraham, "I am going to bless you to bless all nations."

The mission of God in Genesis 12 really begins and becomes clear in Genesis 12. And God raises up this nation, Israel, to be a holy nation, to represent Him to all nations. And the nation that was going to rescue the nations and show them who God was, they ended up meeting rescued. They spiraled downward of their own self-absorption. 

In Matthew 16, Jesus launches the church, and now the church is to go to all the nations. [00:34:16] I mean, what's interesting, when you look at Israel, they were telling the nations, come and see. We have the temple, the glory of Yahweh, God is here. Come and see who God is. And then in the New Testament, Jesus says to the church, go and tell.

When you think about post-resurrection, before Jesus ascended to the Father, we know in Acts 1:3 that there were 40 days that He roamed the earth. So between the resurrection and the ascension, Acts 1:3 says, for 40 days He roamed validating who He was. 

And what's crazy, Laura, is that during those 40 days, we don't have much recorded. We only have like 40 verses of what He taught. That's it. I think there's 160 verses in total, but only 40 are in red. So we only have 40 verses of what Jesus taught. And the vast amount of those 40 verses during the 40 days of Jesus roaming the earth before He ascends, they're all pretty much Great Commission text. [00:35:19] 

I mean, you got John 20:21 that says, "As the Father sent me, I am sending you." So church, you're a sent one. And then in the second Great Commission text, later that night on the resurrection, He gives us Luke 24:46-48. This is written, Christ will suffer and rise from the dead. Repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations.

So now we go, Okay, we're sent ones to the nations to teach the gospel. And then a few days later, He gives the 11 disciples Mark 16:15, go and preach the gospel to all creation. So He builds on John 20 and Luke 24. With Mark 16:15, He says, go and preach to all nations the gospel. So it's like, okay.

But then in Matthew 28, He's like, not only preach and teach, but make disciples of all nations. So Matthew 28:18-20, you are to now go to all nations, speaking the gospel and making disciples. [00:36:22] And then the fifth Great Commission text would be Acts 1:8. You are my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and against the earth. 

When you think of the biblical foundation for why we need to be involved in God's mission, it starts in Genesis 12. But then in the New Testament, we are just bombarded with five Great Commission texts, the last words of Jesus telling us that by the power of the Holy Spirit, you need to go to the nations, speaking the gospel, making disciples, and gathering them into churches.

Like, you can do a lot of things in the world, but you must do that. You must be someone who is actively involved in the mission of God. And so I think you get that.... It's all over the scriptures, but specifically with Israel in Genesis 12 and the church in the five Great Commission texts.

Laura Dugger: I think it's so creative in the way that God calls His people to meet that. [00:37:24] Like, we do think of the goers first, but that can manifest in so many different ways through these different categories that you've articulated for us. 

And even some of those passages are especially meaningful because I remember the first time when even this podcast went global and when we get to share the good news and the gospel message of Jesus, it was Him showing me later in scripture, this is one way to make disciples. And the good news is getting to the nations, even through this podcast that you record in your home. It just is humbling.

Todd Ahrend: It's good stuff. Good stuff, Laura.

Laura Dugger: I'm just going to reference that class you taught one more time. But you shared one story about an international student, and it has stuck with me for nearly a decade now. So will you retell that for us?

Todd Ahrend: Sure. I'm guessing it's the story of my friend Spencer. He was at K-State University in Manhattan, Kansas. [00:38:29] He knew that he didn't have any international friends, and he knew that there was an incredible opportunity to reach internationals on campus. And so he one day was like, "Man, I'm going to go in the union, sort of initiate. My heart's pounding, and I'm going to find international students, sit down and talk to them."

And so he does just that. He goes in the student union at K-State University, he sees an international student studying by himself, his heart's pounding, and he walks over and starts talking to the guy. It's a Chinese guy, and he's so excited to have a great 40-minute conversation. 

Spencer's like, My first Chinese friend. This is epic." And the Chinese student's like, "Well, man, it's May 1st. I graduate May 8th. I'm flying back to Beijing in eight days." And Spencer's like, "Oh, man, I thought we were going to be friends for four years." So Spencer gives him his number and says, "Man, in eight days, if you need anything, just call me." [00:39:27] He doesn't think he's ever going to hear from this Chinese guy again. But the guy texts him Friday night and says, "Hey, can you give me a ride to the airport Saturday afternoon?" And Spencer texts him back, "Yes." And the guy texts him back, "Lots of luggage." And Spencer texts him back, "No problem."

So Spencer rolls around the dorm, the guy comes out and Spencer's like, "He had the largest hockey bag I've ever seen." And we push and push and push and finally get in the back of my SUV. He's like, we shut the trunk. We high five. And the student says, "Oh, we have another." Spencer's like, well, the airport at Manhattan, Kansas is only like two miles from the campus. So let's just strap it to the top two miles, roll down the highway. It's fine.

So they strap the second one to the top. They're driving to the airport two miles away and my friend Spencer's like, "Hey, what's in the bags?" And the Chinese student says, "Oh, gifts." [00:40:25] And Spencer's like, "Oh, you mean like souvenirs, like your souvenirs you're taking." And the Chinese student says, "No, it's souvenirs that I brought from China to give to my American friends. I made none. I made none." That's a tragedy.

Laura Dugger: I mean, that one leaves me emotional and convicted. I guess just speechless. But I think what it leaves me asking at the end of that story, nearing the end of this conversation, and even as I think of ending and closing this stories series where we have focused for months on God's stories throughout the world, it leaves me asking, Todd, now what, how then shall we live?

Todd Ahrend: Well, I think for many of us, the first step is to get educated. [00:41:26] I mean, a lot of us... I mean, we just don't know what we don't know. And so, man, how can I get a heart for the world? I wrote a book called The Abrahamic Revolution that just is sort of the bottom shelf: What's God's word say? What's the world look like? And then how can we live a global Christian life? 

For some of us, it's just getting educated. What does the Bible say about missions? Who are the nations around me? How do I talk to a Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim about Jesus? 

We launched an online course that's real simple and real fun. It's called themissioncourse.com. And it's six really well-done 45-minute videos of the six basic things that a believer needs to know. I think it's like 45 bucks. You go online, you can watch it with your friends, your family, your kids. Put your homeschooled kids in front of it, whatever. [00:42:29] 

The first one is the biblical basis of missions. The second one is the history of missions. The third one is the task remaining. The fourth one is how do you even plant a church overseas? They build on each other. I think just getting educated.

Then secondly, getting engaged, like stepping out, going to your pastor and saying, Hey, who are some missionaries that we send that I can start emailing, praying for, and supporting? When is the next trip we're doing as a church? Do we have anything that welcomes the nations here as a church? Having eyes to see as you're just doing life and initiating with people. In your Bible studies, saying, Hey, I got this article off thetravelingteam.org called What is the Mission of God? It's seven minutes. Can we just read it before we leave here? And just start engaging people in that mission. So getting educated and getting engaged. [00:43:31] 

Laura Dugger: I will certainly add links in the show notes for today's episode so that we have these tangible things that we can go to next. I just think of 1 Corinthians 11:1 that says, follow my example as I follow the example of Christ. Todd, where else can we go to follow you as you're following after Jesus?

Todd Ahrend: Man, thetravelingteam.org is 900 pages deep. So many articles. It's a resource that many authors who are writing mission books use. I remember the first time I opened a book and I looked at the bottom footnote, it said, "These statistics are taken from thetravelingteam.org." And I mean, I about flipped. I'm like, "Are you joking me? We're quoted in a book. This is incredible."

And now, I mean, now it's just sort of become humorous. When a new mission book comes out, the first thing I do is I go back to the bibliography of the footnotes and I'm like... because I know. [00:44:33] 

So it's just really a gift that we've given the body of Christ to say, hey, we have full-time researchers. We have writers on missions. Thetravelingteam.org is a phenomenal resource to use. And then in the top right corner, it says, follow the team. It says our schedule. So like tonight, you can like see, oh, where are we speaking? What are we doing? Where are the three teams at? What campuses?

Laura Dugger: I love it. That will be easy to find in the show notes. You're already aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Todd, what is your savvy sauce?

Todd Ahrend: What a question! I think one of the things that we just always challenge people with and encourage ourselves to do is read the scriptures with the nations in mind. [00:45:34] Don't just look for promises, blessings, and things that God has for you, but also go, man, God blesses me in Psalm 67 so that all nations will be blessed.

Our savvy sauce is to just read with missions in mind. Take a yellow highlighter, and if you see the word peoples, nations, tribes, world, earth, just highlight that verse. Let the mission of God penetrate your soul and to see how it goes through all scripture so that you go, man, this isn't an option if I retire early or if I never married, this isn't an option to be considered. It's really a command to be obeyed and a privilege to participate in. 

And so just permeating the scriptures with what is God's heart for the nations and how can I get that in my heart as the world recruits me to itself every day. I would say that's some sick savvy sauce. [00:46:34] 

Laura Dugger: Well, I was clearly impacted the first time that I heard you share a message, and I'm leaving this conversation even more in awe of our good God. I was eagerly anticipating this chat because I expected that you were going to share a contagious, eternal perspective. And you certainly delivered, Todd. So thank you very much for being my guest.

Todd Ahrend: Thank you, Laura.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. [00:47:38] 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:48:40] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:49:42] 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes adult content and is not intended for young ears.

Story of Healing from Sexual Betrayal in Marriage: An Interview with Bonny Burns

Luke 8:17 (NIV) "For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open."

**Transcription Below**

Questions We Discuss:

Bonny Burns is an APSATS certified partner coach (Association of Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists, apsats.org.) She has been writing and researching God’s design of sexual intimacy since 2012 on the blog OysterBed7.com and has been speaking about godly sexual intimacy on the popular podcast, forchristianwives.com. She can also be found at strongwives.com.

Strong Wives Website

Sex Chats for Christian Wives Podcast

Bonny Burns' Website

Bonny Burns on Facebook

Book with Bonny as your Coach

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00]

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

[00:00:18]

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. I'm grateful for today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Check them out online to place your order for dining or catering, or to fill out an application to join their friendly team. Visit cfeastpeoria.com. 

Hey friends, I wanted to share some exciting news with you. Savvy Sauce Charities has officially received our confirmation from the IRS that all donations are tax-deductible. I know that we have super generous listeners, so we wanted to let you know you can now mail your check to Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. Thanks in advance for supporting Savvy Sauce Charities. [00:01:24] 

Now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons. Bonny Burns is my returning guest, and she is a certified partner coach with the Association of Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists. 

 She came into this field after experiencing her own betrayal trauma in her marriage. I appreciate her willingness to share how she's walking through this and the hope she's able to offer others because of Jesus.

Here's our chat. 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Bonny. 

Bonny Burns: Well, thank you for having me again. I'm really honored.

Laura Dugger: Very much enjoyed chatting with you the first time. Today it's going to be a little bit more personal. Will you share your journey with us? 

Bonny Burns: Sure. I'm going to start from the very beginning, so just to lay the groundwork. I grew up in a Christian home, and all Christian homes have defaults. In my house, there was a lot of comparison of body types because my mom had her own body image issue. So therefore I saw people in public more for their body types and clothes than for their deeper stories. [00:02:35] 

But this also meant that there was an underlying philosophy of a little porn won't hurt, or boys will be boys. And so that's the background I came into marriage with. And newly married, porn was around a little bit, but because of my background, I didn't balk. I accepted it. And while I didn't seek it out, I understood how it did create sexual arousal. 

So fast forward a bit. By the fourth year of our marriage, we had three kids because we had a set of twins, and the porn had disappeared. And I thought it was a non-issue when in actuality, it had just went underground. 

So my first big discovery was about 15 years into our marriage in the early 2000s. I discovered a very troubling name of a business where money had been withdrawn from an ATM. At this point, the problematic sexual behavior had went past just pornography. [00:03:39] 

My world blew up. I was a little more spiritually mature than when we were first married, and this certainly felt like our vows had been broken. I was in a tizzy. I mean, seriously, I did not know what to do. I was on an emotional roller coaster. I wasn't as angry as I was hurt that he had stepped out like this. 

When I approached him, of course, and he is deep in his addiction, and there was a lot of denial. However, I bought into his blame that I was partly at fault for this because I had very little sexual interest, which if you've heard the other podcast, if you heard the other part of our conversation, this is about the time I started delving into finding my sexual interest. [00:04:41] So part of that motivation was from his blame.

However, I will say that as time went on, I found that sex was for me too and I rejected his blame of any kind. But in our story, this is where we were at, that I had accepted it. Actually, I had no idea what to do, honestly. Aside from try to fix my sex drive, I was devastated. And none of our friends had talked about anything like this. I didn't really trust our church leadership fully, so we didn't go there. But surely he wasn't an addict, because I was doing all this internet research. And granted, Google was very young at the time.

But there were no resources for me as the betrayed wife and very little resources for what I just thought was a porn struggle. Because he absolutely rejected that label. I thought, "He's not an addict, surely?"

Well, while this is not usually what you want to do when dealing with a person in an active addiction, I didn't know what else to do. [00:05:51] So we went to a marriage counselor. And oftentimes, with the person in active addiction, they will paint the marriage problems as the other person's fault. However, we found a good counselor and he saw through what was going on and he challenged my husband quite a bit, so much so that my husband refused to go back to counseling. 

But what did save our marriage at this time was a marriage class we took through our church that taught the psychoeducation of relationships and of marriage. And it taught us tools and those tools stuck. Even in his addiction, he tried super hard to implement these tools so that we can have a better relationship. So we were no longer miserable at this time. And we had a fairly good relationship. I know that sounds crazy. Because fast-forward a few more years, he still got an addiction I didn't know about. A few more years later, I have another discovery. [00:06:56] 

And this is after I'd started the blog. So by this time, I knew a little bit more about problematic sexual behavior. But again, not enough. But I was completely astonished. Because at this time, we are having consistent, frequent, mutual sexual intimacy. He can no longer blame me for this.

So I cajoled him to go to a counselor who said he was a sex addiction counselor. Now in looking back, I realized he really didn't have the right credentials for what my husband needed. But it is what it is. So he went about five times, said he was done, said he was cured. 

And this time, where the first time I forgave him and tried to forget and actually gave him my trust back the first time, this time, I forgave him, I didn't quite forget. I gave him some trust, but he didn't have my full heart anymore. [00:07:59] 

So after this blow-up, I decided to go back to school to earn a psychology degree with Christian counseling emphasis. So I have a bachelor's from Liberty. And this was more to help with Oysterbed7. I didn't realize that I personally was going to need this.

I started to campaign with APSATS, which is the Association of Partners of Sex Addiction Trauma Specialists. I campaigned with them to be able to train so that I could become a certified coach to walk with other wives who had men struggling with pornography or problematic behavior. 

So as I sat down to work on my website, which is strongwives.com, I knew that I could not go into this ministry without a marriage that had 100% sexual integrity. My part of that in the past is that I got rid of all of my romance novels. [00:09:02] I committed to staying fully present in the bedroom with my husband. There were no shortcuts to orgasm through fantasy of any kind. I stayed fully present. That was my commitment to 100% sexual integrity. But I didn't know about his. 

You know, I didn't fully trust him. I didn't fully give him my heart. So I sat down and prayed Luke 8:17 every time I worked on the website, which is, "For there is nothing secret that shall not be made known and nothing hidden that will not be disclosed." 

Nine months after praying that prayer consistently, God revealed that my husband's sexual addiction hadn't been cured by those five visits to the therapist. In actuality, it had went underground and it had grown. And that is classic addiction is that it just grows and grows. [00:10:02] 

So by now I know exactly what to do. I have boundaries. I put boundaries immediately into place, which are so important for the wife of a sexually addicted husband. Boundaries help them know how you will be treated. Boundaries keep you safe from the lack of sexual integrity in your marriage. My boundaries were that he would see a CSAT weekly until that CSAT released him. There was no walking away just because he felt he was cured. He would be 100% cooperative with that CSAT. Whatever that CSAT asked, he was to do cooperatively. These were my non-negotiables. If he did not agree to do this, I was going to physically separate and decide whether I would dissolve the marriage or not. 

My other non-negotiable is that he attends two meetings a week for the rest of his life because addiction happens in isolation and recovery happens in community. [00:11:06] From there, we also had something called a full therapeutic disclosure, which is where I worked with my own abscess coach and he worked with his CSAT therapist to develop his timeline of behavior, which they can go back to their childhood. It explains all of their sexual behavior to the present. They take complete ownership of it. There is no blame, justification, or minimization.

And it's therapeutic because it's done with the support of these two professionals who've been trained to walk people through this. That was the beginning of our new marriage. 

And while I said that after that marriage class, he had changed a lot, after his recovery, his sobriety, and recovery, he is almost a completely new man.

Now for me, my healing has included a tremendous amount of grief because at the last D-Day, I was angry. [00:12:10] You may remember at the first D-Day, I wasn't angry. I was hurt. This time, I had done everything a godly wife is required. And I don't say that haughtily. I say that with great humility. I'm not perfect. I came from a household that was flawed. I have flaws. But I had learned to be a woman of sexual integrity. I had been telling him the things I had been learning all these years, and they were falling on deaf ears. And that's what made me angry, is the injustice of not having a husband, fully faithful.

So my recovery has included a tremendous amount of grief, a really great APSATS coach, a community, and a retreat. And this retreat continues to heal me through the years. So I am in a very good place now. [00:13:10] Sure, I still have a few little triggers now and then. But I see the sex industry for what it is. I'm not personally affronted. I am livid for the women who are enslaved in it.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Bonny, thank you for sharing your journey. I'm sure some of the marriages and people listening are maybe in the same spot, and some have never experienced something like this but would love to learn more about your experience, too. Are there any things that you have to deal with that we may be unaware of?

Bonny Burns: Well, I will say it's been a journey. So when there was the first D-Day, I was all about control. We would not watch certain movies. If I caught him watching certain YouTube videos, I was livid. That tone of voice sounds condescending, and I don't mean it to be. I'm just saying that I was being a policeman, and that's not how a sex addict recovers. [00:14:27] 

Here's the truth, though. Hypervigilance, which is what that control is, is really safety-seeking. So I was seeking to make myself safe by controlling what he saw when the true healing is, he completely respects me and doesn't push those boundaries. 

So while I understand a new wife who's fresh trying to control, that's part of our betrayal trauma, it's, like I said, keeping ourselves safe, I have been on a journey of... scantily clad women, they trigger me, but I don't really worry about what he's doing, because that's between him and God. And if he starts down that slippery slope of falling back into his addiction, he knows what I'm going to do, because I'm still here after 36 years of marriage, but I won't be if he falls back into addiction, because I love him, but I love God and myself more. [00:15:35] 

Laura Dugger: I appreciate how you have depended on God through all of this. Is there any unique or specific way that you've experienced God's grace through this journey?

Bonny Burns: God's grace was that He brought it to my attention. It was someone who wished to do me harm, how I came to know. But like Joseph said of his brothers, what you wished for harm, God did for good. Someone wished to harm me, and that's how I came to know about the full extent of what was going on. And that was God's mercy. And that was God being faithful to me and honoring that I couldn't go into this ministry without a marriage full of sexual integrity.

Now personally, what do I still struggle with? Like I said, I really don't struggle with scantily clad women or magazines. [00:16:37] Some billboards do. I just look away. I've asked him that if he knows of a sexual venue of any location we may be traveling to, that we do not travel down that road. I don't want to see that.

But true triggers where my body reacts viscerally really come from memories around the last D-Day. And I just navigate those triggers by understanding what they are, that he is a new man right now. He is working his recovery behaviors very hard. And yeah, I do some deep breathing. If it's been really bad, I'll just... I have a mindless game on my phone that helps to distract me for a while. So I'll play that if I'm very highly triggered.

I used to... early, early after the first D-Day, I vented. [00:17:38] And that's a very appropriate and acknowledged way of healing. So just like Jesus overthrew the tables, my venting was very intense. I was angry. I tried not to denigrate his personhood. I didn't call him names. I called his behavior names. Because I realized even in the worst of it, he is a child of God. He does have belief, even though he kept that part of his life compartmentalized off from his belief. So early on in my healing, there was a lot of anger, a lot of rage. Yeah.

Laura Dugger: Yeah. That's understandable, and a lot of righteous anger in that too. I want to go back to that verse that you shared. That's where the Lord had me in quiet time today. So I just want to read it because I still had it out. And it's Genesis 50:20 that says, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." [00:18:47] 

Will you teach us what we may not be aware of for people who do struggle with pornography addiction in marriage?

Bonny Burns: Sure. At the first look at a pornography addiction, it looks like it's all about sex. It's not. Pornography or sex addiction, any kind of problematic sexual behavior is usually used as a coping mechanism. And that coping mechanism was developed when the person with the addiction was very young, typically. Addiction grows out of a place of deep wounding. 

So there is an excellent resource by Jay Stringer, who is a Christian clinical psychologist, and the book is called Unwanted. And it's about how brokenness leads to addiction. He writes about a study he conducted with over 3,000 men, mostly men with sex addiction, and it shows that for the vast majority of them, their childhoods were marked by abuse or wounding. [00:20:01] 

People with sexual addiction learned very early on that sexual arousal is a way to escape. So you know that verse in Song of Solomon where it says, "Do not awaken love before it's time." That's exactly what plays out with most men with sexual addiction. Their arousal was sparked too early. 

For example, this is a conglomeration of stories I know. So a boy has a very angry father who neglects him. When he becomes drunk, yells and abuses him. But this little boy knows that in the woods, the neighborhood boys have built a treehouse with a lot of porn magazines in there. So as soon as he can escape from his alcoholic father, he goes out to the woods and he looks at these magazines.

And being six, he doesn't quite know about masturbation yet, but he feels some really good feelings looking at these pictures. [00:21:02] He doesn't understand why, he just knows he does. And it's an escape from what's going on at home.

Also, childhood sexual abuse plays a big role in the fertilizer for this addiction too. It's just a place of shame. And so addiction really is shame and humiliation, and it's a way to escape from that.

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsors. 

[00:21:31]

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Laura Dugger: We are so excited to celebrate with you that The Savvy Sauce Charities received our IRS confirmation that all donations are officially tax deductible. We hope that you're going to take action to partner with us. There are details laid out on our website which is thesavvysauce.com and they're going to walk you through the process to donate. And it's also going to share our tax ID number. The donation process is as easy as just filling out a check for Savvy Sauce Charities and mailing it to P.O. Box 101 Roanoke, Illinois 61561. 

If we've contributed to your life in any way by resourcing you to grow closer in intimacy with God and others, would you now contribute to us financially? In this way we are so excited to partner together and hopefully meet each other's needs.  Our team wants to continue producing these podcasts and we're expectant that if you're listening right now you value The Savvy Sauce Charities enough to make a donation.

We view this work as ministry so we happily spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes and our ultimate prayer is that your experience with Savvy Sauce Charities will make an impact for eternity. [00:24:04] 

So if that is true for you, if you've ever received a blessing in any way from this non-profit, would you prayerfully consider donating to Savvy Sauce Charities? Any amount is greatly appreciated. and in fact you've heard me say before if every listener gave only one dollar per month it would completely offset all our costs. And again we have all the details listed on our website thesavvysauce.com if you are interested in making a donation. We look forward to partnering with you. 

[00:24:38]

Laura Dugger: For the wives then as well, if this is the situation where the husband's done the betrayal, what are some lies or myths that women are tempted to believe when they've been sexually betrayed?

Bonny Burns: Oh yes. Two most common lies are: I'm not enough. I'm not enough to keep him home. I'm not enough that he's roaming like this. The other one is I'm too much. I'm too big. I'm too much personality. He can't handle me and so he's got to sneak off and do this on his own because he just can't handle me. Both of those are lies. Both of those are not true. 

The truth is you are perfect. You may have flaws, we all have flaws but there's no flaw big enough in you to create his sex addiction. You didn't create it. The other truth is you can't cure it. But what you can do is you can get firmly rooted in who you are so that you know that you are worthy of the respect of a man who is walking in sexual integrity. [00:25:46] Because from that worth you create boundaries. "I won't tolerate that in our marriage."

The other lie is that I will never get over this. And that's from the pain. It's a deep, dark, devastating pain. Your world shatters. But here's the truth. You can but it does take work.

Laura Dugger: I think that sometimes there's this misunderstanding that we need to be the Christian nice girl when really nice is not the biblical value. The fruit of the spirit is kindness. But I believe it's in kindness even to your husband that you set those boundaries. That may not have felt nice to him in the moment but it actually is a root of love I would say.

Bonny Burns: Oh, absolutely. I love that you brought that up. Yes, Jesus held His own boundaries. When He was overtaxed He went off by Himself to pray. [00:26:51] That was His boundary. He rode out into the middle of the lake to get away. Jesus had boundaries.

He also had boundaries with the Pharisees. He wouldn't let them talk to Him or treat Him certain ways until it was time for His sacrifice. Bible has a lot. Even physical boundaries. God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden. That was a physical boundary. "You're leaving. You're leaving. You're not safe to be here anymore." 

So yeah, boundaries are all through the Bible. We have a really hard time because we're taught to be such good... The beauty is a quiet spirit, right? So it's hard for Christian women to understand that no, you can demand some things and you can put some things in place and how you will be treated. 

Now, will the person with addiction love it? No. That's why you have to be... typically they don't. Some guys who realize "I need help" do respect your boundaries more easily. [00:27:58] But because of the pushback, that's why you have to be really grounded in who you are and how valuable you are to God. Because it's from that strength and your values that boundaries are created. 

Assertiveness is not the same as aggressiveness. And that's what you're being. You can be kindly, forceful, and that's assertive. Then I will say from personal experience, so my journey, you're talking about being the nice girl. The first D-Day, I was a nice girl. What can I do to help you? How are we going to get through this? Oh, I... you know? But I couldn't do the work that he needed to do for him because the work he needed to do was deep. It was about his family of origin. I knew his family of origin and I knew he needed to do that work. Even the first D-Day, I knew his family of origin was messed up. But I didn't realize until the second D-Day that he needed to get well for himself, not for me, for himself, and for God. [00:29:02] 

So third D-Day, I knew he was so lost in his addiction, he wasn't going to seek help for himself until I said, "I'm not going to be in a relationship with you while you're in this act of addiction." And that's to protect myself. But yes, you're right. It was also a kindness to him to help him grow healthy and whole. And I will tell you not too long ago, he looked at me and he said, "I don't think I've told you this specifically. I love being in recovery."

Laura Dugger: Wow. 

Bonny Burns: And he has thanked me again and again for staying and he's thanked me again and again for setting my boundaries.

Laura Dugger: And I've heard you speak before about him just saying, he is a wonderful man. He treats me well in all of these other areas. Is that right?

Bonny Burns: Oh, true. Oh, yes. Now he's treating me even better in all those areas because there were things that you give grace for, right? Oh, he's had a tough day. So yeah, his tone of voice isn't so great. But that wasn't a consistent pattern. [00:30:09] I was giving him grace for those things. 

Well, now that he's in recovery, those things don't happen. I think too, he knows I'm more likely to call him out on it now. There isn't quite as much grace for some of those things, but that may change as we're farther down the road. And it stems from that marriage class we took that he learned those tools.

Laura Dugger: And what was the name of that marriage class?

Bonny Burns: So this was back in the early 2000s and it was called Dynamic Marriage. Like I said, it changed our lives. However, I do want to put a disclaimer. This marriage class might not be for everyone. And this marriage class cannot cure sex addiction. That's not what this marriage class is about.

This marriage class is about building your life as a partnership, but it does not address sex addiction. So I just want to put that out there. [00:31:09] But we did learn some really amazing tools on how to navigate conflict, how important it is to give each other undivided time.

But here's what I think the marriage class... really for us, the most benefit we got was we hear about love languages and fulfilling needs and all that. And that's great. But if you're doing things to shoot a hole in your bucket, no matter how much love you're putting in it, it's going to drain out.

And that's another aspect of this marriage class is that it talked about things that kill romantic love too, which is annoying habits, disrespectful judgments, independent behavior and... I can't remember the last one. But that was pivotal because I think in our marriage, all of those were happening. So when we learned to reduce those things, it really helped improve our partnership.

Laura Dugger: And I think even a really practical thing that can shoot a hole in our marriage bucket is pornography. [00:32:13] 

Bonny Burns: Yeah.

Laura Dugger: Why would you say that pornography is such a powerful trap?

Bonny Burns: Oh, well, in this world, there's a very well-known phrase. It's the three A's. It's accessible with the internet you can see billions of pictures. It's affordable, free. And it's anonymous. You can do it. You know, you can view it and no one will know on either end. So that's part of why it's such a big trap. 

The other part is because neurochemically what goes on in the brain. So pornography works on the reward system in your brain, which makes you feel good. It's called a process addiction because it is unlike heroin or all drug and alcohol addictions. It's not a substance you put in your brain to get high. It's you doing something that's natural and normal and abusing it to create the high. [00:33:19] So that's another piece. 

The third piece I would talk about is when it becomes a habit to help you cope, you create pathways in your brain. So imagine you're in a 1980s neighborhood and there is a mall down the street and the kids always use your backyard as a shortcut to get to that mall. After a while, the grass is worn away and you see the dirt path through your backyard. So that makes you mad. So you go tell the kids, "Walk somewhere else."

Well, what happens is for porn users and their habitual use, they wear a pathway in their brain. So the pathway is, I'm frustrated, how do I get to feeling better? So they take the porn path and it creates a very deep groove in their brain and it becomes a really ingrained habit on top of the biochemical processes and the three A's. [00:34:27] 

In the recovery world, they suggest to become sober so that you can get the grass to grow in that pathway that you attend 90 meetings in 90 days so that you can remain sober for 90 days and you have the accountability and support of other men who get it. 

So for a heroin addict, they have found that it takes 90 days of sobriety for the heroin to come out of the hair follicle. They just have extrapolated that 90 days to other things. And so that's why it's 90 meetings in 90 days to help sobriety and to help that pathway fill in and for him to find new, healthier ways to cope with frustration and shame.

Laura Dugger: That's a huge part of the initial piece of recovery. [00:35:27] But then back to the spouse who's been sexually betrayed through infidelity or pornography, what are they likely to experience?

Bonny Burns: Right. In 2005, there was a pivotal study done by Dr. Barb Steffens, and it's called The Traumatic Nature of Disclosure for Wives of Sexual Addicts. And what she found is that nearly 70% of women, when they discover the problematic sexual behavior of their husbands, they experience a type of PTSD. It's called betrayal trauma. 

So for her, she is probably going to experience a roller coaster of emotions. She will experience hypervigilance, which is we talked about that earlier, the control. But that's just out of safety seeking to keep herself okay. [00:36:28] She has probably experienced intrusive thoughts and nightmares, problems with sleep, lack of sleep, insomnia, or she could go the other way, and depression and oversleeping kicks in. 

But what happens really at the core is that when you understand that your husband has been unfaithful, your brain doesn't know the difference between that death of trust and the death of a real person. So your brain goes into the fight, flight, or freeze mode, which is called the threat preparedness mode. And so your body gets ramped up. 

Me personally, on D-Day, it was about 3 a.m. I was running circles through my house. And that is not me. But the fight or flight had kicked in and I had to move. I had to move. It was the craziest thing. [00:37:30] 

So after that initial shock, those things can hang around too long and that's what creates PTSD. So betrayal trauma is a type of PTSD and it is excruciating for many weeks. For many weeks. So what I suggest and the reason I became an APSAT certified partner coach is because that woman has been trained to walk with you during this devastating time. She helps you process, you can vent to her. But she also is able to coach you in taking care of yourself, coach you in figuring out what are boundaries if you don't know what they are and how they're beneficial. 

For the wife who's just experienced this betrayal, it could be there's such a spectrum of things she could experience, but they're all normal. And I want you to know you're not alone. [00:38:30] Because there was a study done in, I think, 2017 of problematic sexual behavior across the board in the U.S. and 10% of men... it was a self-reported study, so I think this is on the low end, but 10% of men identify as having problematic sexual behavior. 

So, say... I'm not sure how many people... say there's 100 million, I'm not sure how many are in the U.S. If there's 100 million people, 10% of a hundred million is a lot. And if 50% of those men are married, that's a lot of betrayed wives out there who aren't talking. But I am. So I am. You are not alone. And knowing that you're not alone helps. Because just as addiction is built in isolation and recovery is in community, our recovery is in community as well.

Laura Dugger: That's so helpful to have the next step. [00:39:29] We're going to link to your website where if that is the next step somebody needs to begin their recovery and healing as the betrayed spouse, that's helpful to have something to grab on to. 

How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content, and now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out. 

I appreciate that passage of Scripture you had shared earlier in Luke. Are there any other scriptures that have been especially meaningful to you or your clients on this journey?

Bonny Burns: Oh, yes. Isaiah 43:1-3. And I'm going to pull it up and read it. "He who created you, he who formed you, Israel, says, Do not fear for I have redeemed you. [00:40:31] I have summoned you by name and you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you. And when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep you over. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned, and the flames will not set you ablaze. For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior, and I gave Egypt for your ransom." 

I clung to this through the early worst days because I thought I was going to disappear. It felt like an implosion, like I was being pulled into this black void of nothingness. It was the craziest I had ever felt. But I went back to this verse because it told me that God won't let the devastation of this destroy me. He won't let the flames burn me. It's pain. We know that there's going to be suffering because Jesus said there would be, but that He's our peace. [00:41:32] Father God told me that He would protect me. And I clung to that, that God cared enough to know my name and He knew what I was going through. 

I'll tell you a little tiny piece of His care for me. The day after our D-Day, I took my coffee. We live out in the country. I took my coffee onto the front porch, and I was sitting there. It was probably six in the morning. And I love nature. I love animals. And through the front yard traipsed a mama deer with her two newborn fawns. And to me, that was God seeing me. That was God giving me a little nod, "I'm here. Here's a little blessing for you. We're going to be okay. We're going to get through this." 

And I'll tell you what, our anniversary of our D-Day was not too long ago. And the day before, I saw another mama with her two baby fawns. [00:42:35] 

Laura Dugger: Wow. As painful and like you said, excruciating as your journey has been, you provide such encouragement by being willing to share the raw journey. I'm wondering, do you have any other hope you want to encourage someone with who may be in the midst of this heartbreak right now?

Bonny Burns: The hope is God does see you. Now, a lot of betrayed wives do have a crisis of faith at this time. They wonder, why didn't he stop this if He knew it was going on? Or why didn't He show me earlier the severity of this? I mean, I thought that. We've been married 36 years in a few months. It's a long time. Why didn't He show me? That's a lot of time lost. I was robbed of so much. 

I understand questioning God and being mad at Him. [00:43:37] And we are absolutely allowed to be mad at Him. But He is there. Another of my favorite passages is, even though you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I am with you. Doesn't say He's going to save us from it, but He says He's with us in it. 

And that is the hope I give to women who are fresh and raw. He sees you and He's walking with you. Now, what else He asks of us is that we stand up, we start to look at ourselves, start to take care of ourselves, start to find resources because our recovery kind of mirrors the men in that we need to find community. We need to do a lot of self-care. 

Early on, that self-care includes sleeping, just like in that... I don't know if you listened to our other previous podcast where we talked about how important sleep was for our sexual function. [00:44:44] Sleep is imperative for a woman who's healing from betrayal trauma because it helps your brain heal. I mean, chemically, physically, your brain changes with betrayal trauma. Sleep gives us the restorative energy, replenishes the neurochemicals, replenishes everything. Sleep is so important. That's where we start is with sleep. We go from there.

Laura Dugger: I love how you're using that word "restore". That is my prayer for anyone going through this, that the Lord would restore and would redeem and continue to be near and dear to everyone in this journey. 

But as you mentioned, people need community. If someone is relating to this topic and they want to walk with you alongside them, where can they specifically find and connect with you?

Bonny Burns: Absolutely. My website is strongwives.com. [00:45:48] That's where you'll find my schedule for coaching. You can book an appointment. You can read more about me, my training, where I come from. I'm here to help the wounded restore. Actually, it's just such an honor that I can help God in this work. I don't say I help God in this work. No. I am His vessel. He uses me in this work. 

The verse in Corinthians where it talks about with the comfort you have been given, you can comfort others. That's what I work from. I'm not perfect. I make mistakes. I'm still flawed. I'm still a human. But I'll do my darndest to walk with you in the best I can.

Laura Dugger: I'm so grateful for the work that you do, Bonny. Like I said, we will put this link in the show notes so hopefully people can reach out and get the help that they need. [00:46:49] You are this beautiful mix of scientific knowledge and scripture references. I know that you also value sense of humor. 

As we've gone deep today, we're going to come up for air because we are called The Savvy Sauce because “savvy” is synonymous with practical knowledge. As we close our time out together, my final question for you today is, what is your savvy sauce?

Bonny Burns: As a sexually betrayed wife and a Christian sexuality educator, my savvy sauce is that I can see beauty from ashes. I just think it's a spiritual gift that Christ gave us that we can have redemption even after these horrible stories because of His resurrection. 

Laura Dugger: Wow. What a place to end. Thank you, Bonny. You really have displayed Christ and how it looks to walk with Him through some of the most unimaginable betrayal and how He's turned those ashes into beauty in you. [00:47:52] So thank you for being so vulnerable with us and sharing that gift with us today. Thank you for being my repeat guest. 

Bonny Burns: Thanks, Laura.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. [00:48:51] 

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:49:50] 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:50:51] 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

248. Stories Series: Discipline of Celebration in the Midst of Unexpected Loss and Grief with Jonathan Pitts

Psalm 37:4 (ESV) "Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart."

**Transcription Below**

Questions We Discuss:

Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

Unexpected Grief and What Helped Me Through It Can Help You Too with Singer and Blogger, Brittany Price Brooker

Jonathan Pitts is a pastor and author. Since the passing of our founder and his late wife, Wynter, in 2018, Jonathan Pitts has been steering the ship at For Girls Like You. A ministry executive for almost 20 years, Jonathan is a pastor and a relationship-minded visionary leader who is passionate about reaching girls with the hope of Jesus and how the hope that He gives shapes their identity and purpose.

Jonathan is the father of the four girls that have inspired the ministry from the very beginning, Alena, Kaitlyn Camryn & Olivia, and a son, Jonathan Joshua Arrow Pitts. He is married to his best friend, Peta, and an avid golfer.

Follow Jonathan on Instagram

For Girls Like You Website

Church of the City Website

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00]

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18]

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at LemanProperties.com or connect with them on Facebook. 

Jonathan Pitts is my guest today. His story of choosing a sacrifice of praise and remaining hopeful in the midst of experiencing loss after loss is inspiring. I just pray that this is uplifting to all who hear it. 

Here's our chat. 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jonathan.

Jonathan Pitts: Glad to be with you, Laura.

Laura Dugger: Well, we're going to start by actually going back. So can you take us all the way back to your upbringing and just share a little bit about what childhood was like for you? [00:01:18] 

Jonathan Pitts: Sure. So I grew up in South Jersey, which most people think New York when they hear New Jersey, but kind of a really rural spot. My mom is the daughter of German Lutheran immigrants and grew up in Iowa. My dad was an African-American guy that grew up in South Jersey. And so I found myself kind of growing up in a pretty, I would say, poor family, mixed family. I'm mixed, so half German-American, half Black. It was really interesting.

I grew up in a Christian home. My parents are awesome, godly people, really humble and God's done a lot in our family. The beginning of my life was a bit of an identity crisis, because I kind of didn't really know who I was. I grew up in a pretty rural town. I was kind of brown and looked like a Black guy, but didn't really grow up around a lot of other Black people. So I just kind of grew up a little bit confused about who I was, and that would kind of work itself out. [00:02:17] 

And what's really neat is that God's worked in my life to kind of build a whole ministry in my life out of that. But yeah, like really humble means, South Jersey, really small, tiny, really Jesus-loving church that really shaped my siblings and I. I have Identical twin brother and three sisters. My parents were the kids' ministry leaders my whole life, and didn't even really retire until about maybe 10 years ago. So yeah, that was childhood.

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I've got a few follow-up questions. But first, before I even circle back to that, what was your own story of personally putting your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

Jonathan Pitts: You know, I would say my testimony is that I've tasted and seen that the Lord is good. It's that scripture I always go back to, because I grew up in a home where I don't really remember a day where I didn't know the Lord, or I didn't fear God, or I didn't at least seek to honor God and want to know Him and want to talk to Him. 

But I'm the kid that grew up in a Christian home that went off to college. [00:03:19] And when I got to college, I didn't literally say this, but in my mind I was like, Okay, I'm going to just kind of really taste and see what the world is like. I kind of grew up very, you know, pretty sheltered, pretty straight-laced kid in high school. I was an athlete. So playing sports. 

I was an Eagle Scout. I became an Eagle Scout at the age of 17. So I was kind of in a pretty like... I guess I'd call it pretty moral environment. And so I get to college and, you know, I'd never been really tested, I guess I'd say from a worldly perspective. And so when I got to college I kind of lived the life that many of my generation live, which is go to college and party. 

What I would say about my life is really quickly in that journey I realized... I kind of tasted a little bit of the world. And it tasted really bitter to me. It wasn't satisfying. There was nothing about it that was fulfilling. I'll spare you all the stories. But in general, I was kind of living this double life. I was in the gospel choir. I love this saying, I was in a very musical family. I was in the gospel choir. [00:04:18] 

My gospel choir leader was a man named Greg Ross, such a godly, humble man that was able to walk with college students where they are. And many of them oftentimes are kind of in this ambiguous expression of the Christians. They're trying to figure out what it means to be an adult, what it means to be a Christian. You know, it's like two steps forward, one step back, three steps forward, two steps back. He was a really patient man with me. 

Anyway, I was kind of living in two different worlds. And it's what's really beautiful for me is, you know, it was really kind of in relationship with my first wife that I was actually able to really rededicate my life to the Lord. Okay, I'm all in. I'm going after Him. I'm chasing after Him. And obviously that hasn't made me perfect, but it did give me a heart after the Lord that was always there. I think it was just a little bit covered up by just walking the ways of the world a little bit. So that's kind of a quick version. 

But I would say, even then, like the Lord never left me. He was always there. He actually loved me in my ambiguity. [00:05:17] I remember being in college and just partying, my roommates, my college roommates, who are some of my best friends to this day, but then like doing a Bible study with them. I actually ended up apologizing to one of my roommates a couple of years later for my hypocrisy and He was like, man... He actually... what's really beautiful is He saw Christ in me. I've actually had an opportunity to disciple Him over years. God's just really kind and generous and patient and long suffering with us, isn't He?

Laura Dugger: Oh, that is a good word. And how amazing that it came back that way. And yet I'm wondering... I'd love to zero in on that time of life of college and young adult years. Because you brought up Wynter, who you met, I believe, during that time. So could you kind of unpack...? You've alluded to Wynter and then also alluded to her being a part of your testimony. You rededicating your life to the Lord and your ministry, I think you were saying, is what helped you with your identity. So can you unpack all of that within your young adult years? [00:06:25] 

Jonathan Pitts: Yeah. I'll try. I met Wynter. I was 21 years old. It was a couple of days after 9-11, we found ourselves at one of my really good friends, we were at a party. And it was kind of like 9-11 had just happened. So everybody was so sad. And so we're like trying to liven up. It was my buddy's birthday. 

So I actually met her at a party. I actually got her number because I'd seen her on campus but I'd never... I remember seeing her on campus a year prior to meeting her and being like, who is that? I've never met her before. I was just kind of intrigued by who she was. But I was like that guy that was like super. I never called her. I was just kind of scared to call her. She was friends with my friend, so he made the connection for us. 

But anyway, I never called her. But maybe like two weeks later, three weeks later, I was in a class and she actually... I think I write about this in my book, or we write about this in a marriage book we wrote. But she actually was kind of stalking me on campus. She knew where I had this class at. And she stopped me one day and she goes, "Why haven't you called me yet?" So I called her. [00:07:24] 

We went on our first date, which was Monsters Inc., the original Monsters Inc., which kind of dates me. And quite honestly, you know, we both kind of grew up in similar environments. She grew up with a single mom, but her mom got saved in 1980, the year she was born. And, you know, just really always was discipling her and encouraging her in the Lord. But she found herself in college the same as me, just trying to figure out who she was. I would say God used us in each other's lives to bring us really close to Him. 

Anyway, it was kind of interesting. We dated for seven months. I proposed to her seven months into dating. And we were then engaged for a year. And it was really in that engagement year... we were sharing stories like our background. We both grew up in really charismatic churches. We had a lot in common. Even like some of the trauma we had from our upbringings and some of the great things about our upbringings, all that. So we kind of connected over that.

I would say our dating months and in the year of our engagement, God just really did a work on us to solidify who we were as individuals and who we were as a couple. [00:08:29] It was actually at her church, her childhood church that we both dedicated our lives to the Lord, which is really beautiful. I remember it to this day.

We get married in June of 2003, which was the same month we graduated from Drexel University in Philadelphia, which is where we met. But I'll never forget about a year before we got married, I remember sitting down on her stoop. She was in kind of like a brownstone. She's in an apartment like a brownstone in Philly, a really beautiful place. And we're sitting on the stoop and she said to me, she said, "I want to write a book." I just kind of laughed at her. I said, "Write a book about what?" And she's like, "I don't know. I just want to write a book."

And being the kind of self-righteous kid I was, I just said, "Well, you might want to figure out what you want to write a book about before you say you want to write a book." And she just kind of blew me off. Long story short, I'll kind of speed it up, we had our first daughter, Alena, in 2004. She was born less than a year after we got married. So she came pretty quick. We actually started our journey together after college in South Jersey, where I lived. [00:09:32] 

And I was in pharma sales and my company downsized. But they downsized at the same time that we actually went to Dallas to visit Wynter's family. Her uncle, Tony, who's a pastor in Dallas, Tony Evans, and her cousin, Priscilla Shire. It's this family that was a ministry dynasty that I kind of didn't even know who they were.

So we went on vacation. But as God would have it, He would use that trip to change our lives because we'd go there with our, I think, eight month old baby at that time, Alena. And all of her cousins had kids. She had four cousins with kids. None of my family had kids at New Jersey. None of her family had kids. Her brother didn't have kids in Baltimore where she grew up.

Long story short, her uncle was like, "Hey, I'm looking for a grant writer. You're a grant writer." Wynter was a grant writer by trade, pretty new. And I was looking for work. And so anyway, we said, "We'll try it for a year." We went to Texas.

And really God would use Texas to shape her life, shape my life, our family, but really our ministry as well. [00:10:31] Wynter would begin writing. She'd begin kind of blogging and creating content. She did grant writing for a couple of years. Then she just decided... We had two daughters pretty quickly. And then after our second daughter, Caitlin is her name, she said, "I think I need to be home." 

So in that process, though, God really did a work in her heart because, you know, we were both working pretty good jobs. But we weren't making crazy money. We really cut our income in half when she came home. It was really a trust process. But God did a work in her heart because the coming home.... You know, she always wanted to be a professional. She kind of struggled to be a stay-at-home mom or a homemaker or whatever you want to call it. And she wrote this scripture on a card. Her cousin would find it years later. But it was the scripture, delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. But she would write about that scripture impacting her. But she had actually put that scripture in her closet on the wall.

Her cousin who would buy the house from... somebody that bought the house from us would find that card in the closet where she would pray. [00:11:32] Long story short, God would use that verse to really just pull her heart deeply into being a mom. And it would be in that process that God would actually have her begin writing. 

She actually saw a need. Our oldest daughter was seven at the time and she saw a need for more content for twin girls, just girls that were beyond the mommy and me phase. And so she started creating what we just called a resource at the time, which would become a magazine called For Girls Like You Magazine, which is still a magazine to this day with thousands of subscribers. 

So, anyway, that was happening in her life. At the same time, I had begun working in ministry with Tony Evans and... Actually sorry, Anthony Evans, who is a singer. I got a job down there, just kind of a sales job that I was in. But I had lots of margin. 

And he was on the road singing and released the album. He was like, "Hey, do you want to go travel with me?" And so I traveled with him. And traveled with him one time... traveling with him two times to a bunch of times to road managing him. And then I began managing him. 

Long story short for me, that kind of fun weekend kind of job, just traveling to churches to help him with his concerts would lead to full management of his career for about seven years. [00:12:45] And then that would lead to me working at Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship, which is Dr. Evans Church. And really I would kind of grow up in the Evans brand of ministry and find a lot of joy and purpose in, I guess, two things. 

One, nonprofit leadership. The second would be pastoring. To this day I still pastor and I still lead ministry. I actually continue the ministry that Wynter began for Girls Like You. That would kind of be our time. We spent 14 years in Dallas raising our girls. It was a wonderful season of life before stepping into the next season. So I can keep talking about the next season if you want me to, or I can stop. So you let me know.

Laura Dugger: No, I definitely want to hear more, but I'll just interject. This is where I remember hearing about you and hearing about Wynter. And she was sharing on a podcast one time... I think she stayed up all night when she had this desire to create, like you said, just a resource. It was for your daughters. And she cut out pictures and I think maybe had some fashion pieces in there, but also probably Scripture and things about the Lord. And she put this all together, staying up all night. I think you all and people around her started encouraging her, "There's more here than just a nice resource for your family." Is that right? [00:14:05] 

Jonathan Pitts: Yeah. I mean, to me, I think it's one of the greatest encouragements to do whatever God puts on your heart, not having any idea that He might actually take the thing that you're doing and make it something beyond what you could ever imagine. 

I remember she downloaded a free copy of Adobe InDesign and started designing. And what's funny is I didn't realize until like three laptops later, because she kept downloading free copies of Adobe InDesign on different laptops so she could keep the free trial. I'm like, wow, she's really into this and she's actually creating something special.

She wasn't a designer. She just learned to design well enough to create this resource. What would become a magazine, the first issue, which we did a Kickstarter campaign for a thousand bucks. And if you gave like... I can't remember the amount of money, but maybe if it was like 30 bucks or 50 bucks, you'd get this resource. 

But the first one had an article on the history of Chuck Taylor's, but it also had devotional in it. It also had things that are fun for girls and entertaining and encouraging. 

We actually still call the magazine Edutainment to this day because we want to teach girls while we're also entertaining them, while we're also investing in their discipleship journey. [00:15:12] Yeah, it started out as just this labor of love that I would kind of encourage her to get organized around it. Because at that point I was organizing ministry. And she didn't even think it was the ministry at that point. It was just something she was doing. 

I think between my skillset and her skillset and the people around us, God would just use all of that to help us see a path forward for what would become a subscription magazine that would just grow over several years that at this point has now been going for, I want to say, 13 years.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

[00:15:48]

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[00:17:41]

Laura Dugger: So I believe, if I have my timeline right, it was maybe 2017 or 2018 when I was starting the podcast and Wynter was on my initial list of people to reach out to asking her to be a guest. But your life unexpectedly changed at that time, and she was never able to be a guest. So can you share what happened in that season of life?

Jonathan Pitts: Yeah, yeah. So we were wrapping up our journey in Dallas. We both felt like God was moving us on, calling us somewhere else. What would happen is I would get an offer to be executive pastor at a church in Franklin, Tennessee, Nashville area. We actually have a church in Nashville as well called Church of the City. 

And we both just knew God was in it. So we packed our family up. We obviously did our best to honor the season of life we were in, the family we had built. I mean, honestly, the Evans family have become... I mean, the Evans kids, Priscilla Shire, Crystal Hearst, Jonathan Evans, Anthony Evans, they've become like siblings to me and Tony Evans has become a spiritual father to me. [00:18:50] 

Long story short, we packed up. We moved all of our stuff to Tennessee. We bought a home. This would be June 2018. We bought a house. We moved into that house. We actually left a couple of days later for my grandmother's 94th birthday and did a week in Iowa with my grandmother and all of my mom's family.

And then she would fly with my oldest daughter, Alena, to speak at an event in San Antonio while my three youngest girls and I drove to Dallas to really kind of wrap up the last week of my job at the Urban Alternative, which is a nonprofit for Dr. Tony Evans' teaching ministry. 

So we'd get there Sunday, I'd pick Wynter and Alena up from the airport. We actually were staying at her cousin's kind of ministry property that had a small kind of guest house on it. We were staying there. 

That Tuesday I'm just at my job creating standard operating procedures and all the things that you do when you're getting ready to leave. I was the executive director for a pretty significant Christian nonprofit. [00:19:50] And so I'm just doing all that. And I remember she texted me and she said, "Hey, I'm not feeling well." And I texted her back and said, "Hey, what's going on?" She never replied. 

So I ended up getting back to the house and I walk in and her and my sister-in-law, her brother's wife and their couple of kids, her daughters, actually, two girls were there with my girls and with Wynter. And they were all just sitting there and they were all doing each other's hair. And they were playing this game. Some of your listeners might know this game. But you say you can be an elephant, but you can't be a cat. You can be this, but you can't be that. I didn't know the game to this day. I don't know what it is. But they were playing this game and laughing and doing each other's hair. So I was like, Ooh, she must be fine. So I actually laid down and took a quick, like 15 minute power nap. I was so exhausted from all the travel.

We would then pass each other kind of... I was walking out of this master bedroom into the kitchen to cook dinner and she was kind of walking into the bedroom to kind of do a power nap herself. We kind of knew each other really well at that point. We operated really well together. So she went and laid down and I would make dinner, which was Costco ribs and Caesar salad, which I'll never eat again. [00:20:52] 

Long story short, I would eat some ribs with my girls. I would then go into the bedroom, I knocked on the door and said, "Hey, do you want to eat?" Said no. But I went into like after dinner to kind of floss my teeth from the ribs. I kind of look out and... you know, I've obviously told the story a lot over the last now almost six years. But she basically would have a cardiac dysrhythmia, they call it.

At the time, I thought she might be having a seizure and I would find out that her heart had stopped. So I would spend about 30 minutes, you know, doing CPR and calling the ambulance. My three youngest girls were home. Thank God my oldest daughter wasn't there. She had gone to kind of a water park with her oldest cousin. And so, yeah, long story short, she had a cardiac dysrhythmia. The way I say it, the way I like to say it, remember it is that she peacefully glided into the arms of the Lord while all that chaos was happening on earth. [00:21:53] 

Yeah, we would lose her really suddenly. My girls at that time, Alena was 14, Caitlin was 11, and my twins were 9. And we would lose her really suddenly. Two things were true for me. One, and I said this to her, we got to the hospital, and I would say to her as she was... you know, they kind of found a slight pulse, but then they told me it was gone. So you should come say goodbye to her. I sang over her. And then I said to her, "Hey, you don't have to worry about the girls. I'll take care of them."

So that was kind of one of those things in my heart. I was like this next journey is going to be about these girls. I'm not going to fail as a dad. I'm not going to fail their mom. I guess I caught sort of an inner vowel now because I think the thing that I did that was good about that is I leaned into what I think any dad that's in his right mind will lean into if he loses his wife and his child's mom. He's just going to give his whole life to leading those girls.

But I think in some ways it also set me up for, I think, difficult moments when I couldn't be perfect, especially when I was pastoring my girls and not fathering my girls, which is a whole other story. [00:23:03] But that was the one commitment I made in that moment. But then within a couple of weeks, I had made this commitment that I'm not going to let this ministry die. I'm going to continue this ministry on. 

What's funny is God initiated and started the ministry, and God's continued it. Same thing with my girls. God initiated their lives. I'm doing the best I can to steward all that He's put in my lap. And it would be a wild journey. 

What would be awesome about our journey is that God airlifted us out of Dallas and placed us in Franklin, Tennessee, which if you haven't been to Franklin, Tennessee, you ought to visit because it's honestly one of the most peaceful places I've ever been. I call it, and I think it still is, not just for me but for many people, an incubator of healing. I feel like we got here, and we were just enveloped by a healing environment, including our church but beyond our church to the community.

There's a counselor here that you may know of, Sissy Goff, who Wynter had actually had on her podcast a few months before. [00:24:02] And she would actually become my girl's counselor and kind of like a family counselor to us as well. She was a godsend.

We would begin our healing journey, which I would say began and in some ways is still happening. Specifically for my girls, who they will grow up having a mom, but obviously just always experiencing that loss over and over again at different times in different ways. And so, yeah, it's been a wild journey, and God's done so much since then. But yeah, grateful that God brought us to where we are.

Laura Dugger: There really aren't words. I'm just so sorry for the sudden loss. I think she was only 38 years old, I believe.

Jonathan Pitts: 38, yeah.

Laura Dugger: And just the trauma that that introduces to the family, and yet so admirable the way that the Lord empowered you to have the strength to really love your daughters well. [00:25:01] And you have led all of us to see you doing that well. Even in the midst of that grief after losing Wynter, I remember hearing you say that you never lost your joy or your gratitude. And that was so intriguing to me. Will you just tell us more?

Jonathan Pitts: Yeah, I actually did a talk for my church, probably a couple years after that, that I had... actually somebody else share with me on the discipline of celebration, which is kind of a spiritual discipline, I would just call it. But it goes back to Philippians 4:8, which says, Whatever is true, whatever's right, whatever is honorable, whatever's pure, whatever's lovely, whatever's admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think on these things or dwell on these things. 

And for me, what was really cool, I guess, just growing up in my home, and I credit my parents... My parents never shielded me and my family from hard times. We lived a lot of hard times. They didn't shield us from death or loss. Our church was a really small church. [00:26:01] I remember I went to so many funerals before I even turned 18. 

I think what I would say is my family discipled me in the discipline of celebration and also just this healthy understanding of loss. There was no part of me that felt like God failed me or God owed me anything more. And so when Wynter passed away, I kind of had this innate first gratitude. We were married 15 years and 27 days when she passed away. On our 15-year anniversary, I actually surprised her. We did a wonderful dinner, and then I surprised her. I took her to this mansion in our area, and we did this candlelight dessert. We actually shared this dance together — Still the one. There was a mashup song called It's Still the One, Shania Twain, and another song. I'm forgetting it right now. You can actually find it if you Google — our 15-year anniversary. But I actually got to celebrate our marriage with her. [00:26:58] 

So I was thinking about that. Obviously, I was really sad. I was depressed in many ways. But there was still this underlying gratitude for what God did. I didn't deserve her. I didn't earn her. I didn't deserve the family I had. I didn't earn the family I had. God had just been gracious and patient with me. There was this gratitude. I actually taught on that scripture and the discipline of celebration, and I just actually shared what God had done inside of me. And really what I hope, if you have it, you lean into it. And if you don't have it, that you begin to disciple... find somebody to disciple you in it or disciple yourself in it through scripture and through practicing it. 

So leaning in, remembering, thinking about, trusting whatever's true, whatever's honorable, whatever's right, whatever's pure, whatever's lovely, whatever's admirable, whatever's excellent and praiseworthy. Thinking on these things, dwelling on these things, practicing that in your life.

It doesn't matter whether it's the loss of a spouse or it's just as simple as you didn't get the raise you wanted. Or your kid did the wrong thing at school. [00:27:58] Whatever it is, rather than leaning into the worst thoughts, lean into God thoughts, which is what's right and true and honorable and pure and lovely and admirable and praiseworthy.

There is something in every circumstance we walk into that we can dwell on that is better than we might naturally think or what the enemy might want us to think. So I just tried to do that. And actually, I noticed that I was doing that. And I would credit my parents and just the people that discipled me for that journey. 

And really the first time that happened was, in our loss, I had to walk into this room, this family room after Wynter passed away, and the girls are in there. Thankfully, I had my spiritual dad, Tony Evans, and Priscilla Shire was there. A couple of family members and my other pastor, Scott Wilson, was there. By that time, people had gotten to the hospital. So I walked into that room with support. 

But I got down on my knee and I said to my girls... the only thing that I knew was both true and hopeful in that moment, which is mommy went home to be with Jesus. And so it's like I kind of had this... I can't take credit for it because it was just there. But I had kind of this innate desire to want to lean into what's good and pure and right and lovely and honorable and praiseworthy and trustworthy. [00:29:07] I'm not butchering the script because I'm saying it so many times. But the reality is, I leaned into that.

Now, I don't want to say like... obviously like there's so many, you know... I mean, you know this is a therapist. But the reality is there are all these emotions that we need to experience, which includes anger. It includes like all these different things that I don't naturally do. I think anger is one of those emotions that I actually didn't know until probably getting into the new season where I was going to begin courting my now wife. That I would say things like, "I didn't ask for this. Like talking about the hardship with my girls in that process. I didn't ask for this.

So those things I had to learn that I'm still learning to do, honestly, that are godly things to do. But yeah, that was one for me. So yeah, I'll be quiet for a second. Sorry, I'm just running on.

Laura Dugger: No, that is incredible just to hear, again, like that gift that God gave you to meditate on that scripture and the power that He gave you to live it out. You're reminding me of something a previous guest said. [00:30:07] Her name's Brittany Price Brooker. And during the darkest season of her life, she was at church and she sensed God asking her, will you offer me a sacrifice of praise? And that is in scripture, the sacrifice of praise. And it sounds like the spiritual discipline of celebration as well. That's just very humbling to hear. 

But Jonathan, you also continued on to make sure that Wynter's legacy would live on today. Can you share a few ways that you're actually doing that?

Jonathan Pitts: Yeah. I mean, obviously, the first thing I did is just try to really... Well, the first thing God did. Let's just say that. My older sister kind of after the funeral at the dinner, she said to me, "Hey, if you need me, God told me to come help you." She was living in New Jersey at the time. My sister, Carmen, had never been married, never had kids. I actually was like, "I'll be okay." [00:31:04] And I'm like this type A pastor thinking I'm going to just go to Nashville. I'm going to be just fine. 

Anyway, a couple weeks later, I brought a chicken. And I remember coming up into my master bedroom in tears because I was just frustrated. And I called her and I said, "Hey, would you still come? And she said yes. Two weeks later, she was on a plane with a couple of bags and kind of gotten rid of her car and broke her lease and did all the things she had to do to come. And she was here. She actually would become a surrogate mom. My girls lived with me for three years after Wynter passed away.

So God actually knew what my girls would need in terms of additional mothering. And He would send that support. So He sent Carmen, other cousins and aunties and different people in my girl's life. That was one thing God did. I did the best I could to father them and make room for other people in their lives to come alongside. So God did that.

God also just gave me this heart to carry on for Girls Like You Magazine. [00:32:01] I actually turned what was I jokingly called a for-profit nonprofit because it was a for-profit organization that never made any money. I mean, Wynter published a magazine, but she'd go on to publish eight book titles, seven before she died. And the eighth one, she was actually working... She was taking a nap because she's going to work on the night that she died. She's probably 85% percent on that book, which I helped finish. But long story short, God would just do so much. She actually wrote that book that I mentioned in the beginning. She wrote way more than one book. And now she has like, I don't know, it's like 18 different resources in her name because she wrote so much other content before passing away. 

So long story short, I turned that fledgling for-profit into a nonprofit because I knew that it needed to carry on. I also knew that the only way it could is if generous people came alongside. Because we never we never took a lot of advertising and the price of the magazine subscription would never cover the cost of creating quality content for girls. [00:32:59] 

So for Girls Like You Ministries is now a nonprofit organization that has a subscriber base of around, I want to say, five thousand girls now. And we distribute somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 magazines every other month, depending on the partners we have.

We have a lot of church partners in different organizations that we send the magazine to to give to girls that would never be able to afford it or find it. 

So anyway, carry that on. I've got a host of dedicated people, including several moms of tween girls that carry the ministry on with me. I've got a publisher named Roberta who God would bring to us six months before Wynter passed away. We hired her not knowing if we could even afford her. And she still is our publisher to this day. She's an amazing woman that's on our team. 

But God's done that. I've just been the guy that's a big cheerleader that has... you know, all along the road my entire life, I've kind of fell for God's just continue to be gracious and use my gifts, but also be patient and merciful with me. [00:33:58] So it's a privilege to get to carry it on. It's a beautiful part of the portfolio of work that God's given me.

Laura Dugger: It is. And our household, we are subscribers and our girls delight in that. It is giddy squeals when that arrives in the mailbox. We loved it so much. We've shared it with friends and we asked our library to carry it as well so that others could find out about it. So I can't sing your praises enough. If anybody hasn't heard of it before, could you just share the website if they would like to see it themselves?

Jonathan Pitts: Yeah. Forgirlslikeyou.com. F-O-R. Forgirlslikeyou.com is the website. All of our socials that's our handle as well for Girls Like You.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. I highly recommend it. It has been an incredible resource. 

One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." And because our tagline here is Practical Chats for Intentional Living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life. [00:35:08] What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that has improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at [email protected].

God has also done so much more. Will you catch us up to speed on what he had planned for you next?

Jonathan Pitts: Yeah, it's interesting. I started writing immediately when Wynter passed away because I was just journaling all that God had done. I'm actually practicing Philippians 4:8 by just writing down every story I could remember about our life and our marriage and our family and what God did in ministry. So I ended up writing a book called My Wynter Season, Wynter with a Y, because that's how you spell her name. 

I call it a seasonal memoir because it was really... It's not a grief book. It's a book on what God did in that season of our lives. And so I wrote that book. And what's funny is, is I was getting ready to release that book. I would get a phone call from... that was two years after Wynter passed away. I got a phone call from a friend of mine who's a filmmaker, kind of a Christian, kind of faith driven filmmaker, a guy named Darren. [00:36:14] And I'd met him a year and a half prior, six months after Wynter passed away. And I was in all my grief. I kind of was starting my grief journey. Because I was so hopeful and I had so much energy to raise my girls, I hadn't really started grieving yet. So six months into my grieving journey, I find myself in California at a dinner by myself, very lonely, isolated.

And I sat down for dinner with a guy named Darren, his wife, Krista, and I shared my whole story with them. And a year and a half later, he would actually call me. We'd kept in touch because we had a common friend and just really connected. Darren said to me, "Hey, I feel like the Holy Spirit asked me to introduce you to my friend of mine. She's got a big story. It's her story to share. She's an actor and she worked on one of my films and I just feel like God told me to introduce you guys. Would you be open to meeting her? Are you dating again?" I said, "Well, I'm not dating. I'm dating my girls and I'm playing golf" is exactly what I told him. And obviously working and pastoring. I was quite content and satisfied. I think I got settled into the season I was in. [00:37:13] 

You know, I kind of share the highlights of our story, but I just walked through a lot. I was just discovering kind of who I was and how to just grieve well. And so I wasn't really thinking much about moving forward or moving on as... people get annoyed when you use those different terms. I don't know how to say.

So moving forward, moving on, I wasn't thinking much about it. But anyway, I said, Man, I don't know. That's kind of actually something scary to me. I'm a pastor in Tennessee. She's an actor in LA, by the way, called missionally to Hollywood, got saved as an adult in Australia, which was where she's from and was an actor there. 

And long story short, I just said to him, I said, "Can I see a picture of her?" And he sent a picture and I said, "I'll meet her." Look, I'll tell you this, like God is... I think the thing I learned in my 40s... two things I learned in my 40s. One is that I was a Pharisee in my heart. Like I thought I knew who and what Christians could be and what they could look like. Meeting my now wife, Peta, who we had no connections in common, we were from different worlds, she was from Australia, gave her life to Christ as an adult, thought missionally called to Hollywood. [00:38:23] I thought I knew what that meant, you know, and I didn't really know what that meant. 

What I would discover is that God, He's just got... His people are everywhere in every space, trying to win as many people as they can to Him. They're just doing their craft well, and also loving people along the way and obviously living obediently for Him. What's funny is kind of the same way it happened with Wynter, I would fall vastly in love with Peta. We dated for six months. I knew we were serious. We got on our first Zoom call because it was COVID and she was in California and I was in Tennessee. We did a Zoom call. I shared my story. I actually said, "No pressure. I've already met the love of my life," which she was like, "This dude's not ready." Because I said that. 

But anyway, long story short, we did our first Zoom call. I shared my story. She shared her story. We both have big stories and God is intertwined through all of it. It's too much of a story to tell, but we fell in love and we were engaged for nine months and nine months we were completely separate except for 10 days, which was actually a real gift to my girls. [00:39:29] 

So we've now been married for three years on October 1st, and we actually have had a big, long journey. We had a miscarriage right away. We had a stillborn son. And then we just recently had a little boy named Jonathan who is... he actually turned four months on Father's Day and is a growing little man. I say that about Father's Day because I never thought I would have a son. One of the great redemptions I think in my life is getting back something I never even thought that I wanted.

That's a whole other story to tell, but God has been faithful to me and to my family. I've got this big blended family now, which is a whole other journey and a whole other scary thing that I was not ready for. So it's really beautiful, but that's been a journey as well.

Laura Dugger: And that journey sounds like a part two, that we'll have to have some time with you and Peta. We'd just love to hear more.

Jonathan Pitts: Yeah.

Laura Dugger: Grateful. [00:40:28] 

Jonathan Pitts: We'd love to tell that story. That will tell my life, tell our lives, yeah.

Laura Dugger: Well, we will consider that to be continued. But this time has been such a gift. Jonathan, is there any place that we could go after this conversation to follow you and learn more from you?

Jonathan Pitts: Well, I mean, follow me for sure. Learn from me by God's grace. I would say For Girls Like You is a place...you know, I'm kind of still heavily involved. I say I father that ministry. So For Girls Like You is one place. Instagram is kind of probably where I share my life the most. And I don't know why I use this name, but it's Pitsjr26. That's my social handle. But you know, I mostly share just about my family there. But I also will share encouraging things from time to time, pastoral things. 

You can always check me out at Church of the City too. Church of the City, if you're in the Franklin area, if you find yourself in Nashville, love to have you at our church. I still pastor at Church of the City. So would love to see anybody that's listening that would want to come to an awesome church.

Laura Dugger: Yeah, that's now on my bucket list. Our family would love to come down. [00:41:31] My husband would probably love to play a round of golf with you if we're down there.

Jonathan Pitts: Oh my gosh, let's do it. If there's any excuse to play a round of golf, I'm doing it. Even this week, I've been traveling and I'm trying to find, where can I find at least two hours to go play nine holes?   It's kind of the only thing I do for fun besides watch golf is play golf. So that's kind of my hobby.

Laura Dugger: Oh, I love it. Well, you are familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Jonathan, what is your savvy sauce?

Jonathan Pitts: I think my Savvy Sauce right now is, this is going to sound like a simple thing and maybe even a little bit cliché, but it's just like stay humble. I'm just reminded so much recently of I think just the humanity of myself and the humanity of all of us, that God works in spite of us, that He's gracious and that He's merciful. So anything that God has done in my life, anything that God has done in your life, it's only been through His grace and mercy. [00:42:31] 

I just say stay humble about that because the Bible says that those that exalt themselves will be humbled and those who are humble will be exalted. And so it's just like one of those things I want to remind myself over and over again, that the only way that God is going to work in my life and exalt me, which only just means bring me to his level, bring me to Him, bring me closer to Him, bring me into His presence, which everything good in life comes from that, is for me to humble myself. And so, yeah, just stay humble. It's really a valuable thing to do and it's the best way to live.

Laura Dugger: I love that that's your savvy sauce because that is really the word that comes to mind to describe you because we've had just a few interactions prior to today that were related to partnerships in ministry. And I experienced you the same way during every interaction, and that was humble. But also just down to earth and encouraging and very gifted. So you combine all of that. I just want to say it was an honor to get to chat with you today and hear more of your story. [00:43:34] So thank you for being my guest.

Jonathan Pitts: Yeah, thank you for having me. And all glory to God for anything He's done in and through my life. So thank you for just allowing me to share my story. They say people that are grieving, they long to be... I think it's known, heard and loved. And just for me, being able to share my story has been such a fulfilling thing. So thank you for allowing me to share.

Laura Dugger: Wow. My pleasure. 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.  [00:44:36] 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:45:38] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:46:40] 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes one portion with thematic descriptions, so please use discretion.

247. Stories Series: Exciting Adventures Follow Radical Obedience with Susan Zobrist

**Transcription Below**

Isaiah 30:21 (NIV) Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”

Questions We Discuss:

When did you begin following Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

How did life change after that point, including the highs and lows as you progressed in your Christian walk?

What were some surprising adventures God called you into?

Susan Zobrist serves as a Director at the South Side Christian Academy.  She takes care of the daily routine needs at the school, teaches chapel, and oversees the student and family files.  Her husband, Chad, serves as the board president in addition to his full time job.  Chad and Susan have four adult daughters and four wonderful sons-in-law.  They are settling into life with an empty nest and enjoying their grandchildren.

South Side Christian Academy

Previous Episode featuring Susan Zobrist on The Savvy Sauce:

Following God's Leading with Susan Zobrist, Cassie Meiss, and Lisa Waibel

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00]

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18]

Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

My delightful returning guest for today is Susan Zobrist. You may remember her from Episode 133, which I'll make sure to link in the show notes. But Susan is so wonderful that I wanted to invite her back so that she could elaborate on her testimony and the mighty ways that she's experienced God's gift of grace and timing. 

Susan is wife to Chad, mother to four adult married daughters, and grandmother to four grandchildren, who are all three and under. Susan is still the director at Southside Christian Academy, and now she's going to share some of her highs and lows of walking with the Lord over the past few decades, along with some incredible adventures that happened along the way. [00:01:31] 

I learn so much from Susan every time I'm in her presence, and I believe you're going to also end this time more inspired to obey God in whatever call He's putting on your life currently. 

Here's our chat. 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Susan.

Susan Zobrist: Thank you for having me back. 

Laura Dugger: Well, last time you were on the podcast you were sharing more about your current work with Southside Christian Academy. But today I want to go back a little bit further. So will you begin by telling us about your upbringing?

Susan Zobrist: Sure. I grew up in a home where I had a mom and a dad, a brother and a sister who were both older than me. We did attend church. My mom played the organ. My dad was involved. I don't ever recall hearing a clear message of God's love for me and that He was pursuing me and wanted a relationship with me. And combine that with the confusing message and messed up example of love I was seeing in my home. I was pretty confused about what God thought of me. [00:02:38] 

My mom loved me deeply. She cared very well for me. My dad came and went for many years of my life. My parents ultimately divorced when I was 16. I can look back and see ways in that season that God was pursuing me through different people and through different situations. He provided a really sweet glimpse of a wonderful example of what a family should look like by a neighbor family that really took me in. 

Even when my parents were getting their divorce, they had moved overseas, and they actually invited me over there for two weeks while my parents worked through the details of that. So that family just kind of did begin to show me what a Christian family looked like and how siblings should live and how parents love their children and were an example of that. 

He also gave me a snapshot of several students around me as I was growing up who seemed to live a lot differently than I did. [00:03:39] They lived with joy and peace. I knew it was something that was attractive, but I wasn't ready to give up control of my life at that point.

The Lord was truly pursuing me, and really He could have filled every void that I was feeling, but I didn't care to get to know Him at that time. So I pursued every option the world would have to offer—popularity, boys, drinking, toxic relationships, allowing mental and physical damage to my body. And all these things have left scars in my life, and they never satisfied what I was truly seeking. It wasn't until about 19 years old when I began to see signs of the Lord really starting to pursue me.

Laura Dugger: There was one thing that you said that I wanted to go back to. You said in your family how love was distorted. Will you elaborate on that? Did you mean between your parents or other relationships? [00:04:41] 

Susan Zobrist: The view of love that was displayed in my home, my parents... actually, my dad—had several affairs while I was growing up. There were times when my dad would move out for a little bit, but then come back, and it looked like everything was going to be great again. And my dad, he was the type of person who gave me everything I wanted, so I kind of sided with him generally. And there my mom was, steady and hurting and sad. 

But then my dad would come back in and recommit, and things looked like they were going to be just fine again. So this cycle continued probably from when I was 3 years old to 16 years old. So that was what the view of family, to me, looked like.

Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for sharing and clarifying. That makes more sense in those pivotal years developing as a daughter and seeing this as your dad, which a lot of times we hear our dad is the first picture of what we imagine our Heavenly Father to be, even when that's not true. [00:05:49] At this point, did you put your faith in Christ first, or did you meet your now-husband, Chad, first?

Susan Zobrist: I met Chad first. I praised God that I started to realize that God was pursuing me in very small ways. I would get a little bit more of a glimpse of a relationship that looked attractive to me, or people who were, like I said, living with joy and peace in their lives, and I was starting to become curious. After a hard relationship, I made a declaration that the next person I dated I was going to marry. Mind you, I was still not following the Lord at this time. 

So about a year and a half before I was saved, I met a guy. Actually, I had known this guy for quite some time because I was really good friends with his cousin. Mind you, he was six years older than me. So up till this point, there was no... you know, it wouldn't have been appropriate for us to have been together. [00:06:53] So when I first saw him and saw that he was interested in me, I thought, "Wow, this is the guy I'm going to marry because I declared this is who I'm going to marry." 

So our relationship became serious pretty quickly. We met at a party. We spent a lot of time together and quickly became very comfortable with each other. I was still seeking ways to fill the emptiness and heal pain that I was carrying, and our relationship was not one that was moral, but we enjoyed each other. He was kind. It felt good. 

Interestingly enough, Chad had been attending a church, and a little bit into our relationship, he invited me to join him. And so we went to church very faithfully. Our lives weren't changing at this point, but we were hearing the truth, and it was apparently penetrating our hearts. 

One day, about a year and a half into our relationship, there was a clear message of God's love spoken. There was an invitation at the end to put your hope and faith in Jesus Christ. [00:07:58] And while the pastor prayed, we both squeezed each other's hands on notes to the other, indicating that today was the day that we would be saved. 

If you've come to know the Lord, you know that there is an immediate just presence of the Lord that comes, and there's a lot of work to do after that, throwing off the old and putting on new. And it's not an easy process, but it's one that He promises to do with us. So like I said, I knew I was going to marry Chad right away, and I'm so thankful that we did. We got married.

Laura Dugger: I love hearing the origins and knowing both of you now. When did you find out that he knew that you were also the one he was going to marry? Because you knew right away, so when was it clear to him?

Susan Zobrist: Actually, that month that we were both saved and became followers of Jesus, that month he decided that he was going to ask me to marry him. [00:09:00] So that was in October of 1994, and that was a really exciting time for both of us. We were engaged and planned a date to be married in 10 months.

We were diligently planning. We were nervous, and we were eager and seeking immediate and drastic changes in our lives, and especially in our physical relationship. That was something that we were like, okay, we know we had not made good choices, so we had committed to stopping the things that we were doing that were dishonoring to the Lord, and we're going to pursue to have a godly relationship until we got married.

We were engaged that same month, planned our wedding. We committed to these really major changes in our lives and seeking out Christian friends. We were studying the Bible, and we were doing the things that we felt the Lord leading us to do. And those changes that He wanted us to make were so clear at that time.

We had hope. We were excited, and we just really felt like forgiven people, and it was such a blessing. [00:10:04] We took very seriously the verses in 2 Peter 1:5-8, to make every effort to add to our faith goodness, and to goodness knowledge, and to knowledge self-control, and to self-control perseverance, and to perseverance godliness, and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. That if we possess these qualities in increasing measure, they would keep us from being ineffective and unproductive in our knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. That was something we were serious about growing in. 

For the most part, those months were so sweet and so good. It felt like we were doing a lot of just reorganizing in our lives. We had a tricky situation come up that we had stepped away from a lot of our friendships that were difficult for us to maintain. But someone in our life that was from that season was getting married in Chicago, and so we decided to go and knew that it would be quite challenging. [00:11:11] 

I think we thought we could do anything at this point and put ourselves in situations that were challenging because we were so on fire for the Lord, but unfortunately, we went to the wedding, we made one mistake physically, and we got tripped up and I ended up pregnant during our engagement.

Six weeks after that intimate moment we found out we were pregnant. We were already engaged to be married in August, and this was in May when I found out I was pregnant. I'd never been so crushed, so embarrassed, and so ashamed in all my life. And remember, I'd done a lot of horrible things, but I'd never cared.

I was a Christian. I was staring at a life-changing, sinful situation that was going to have many consequences. I really didn't know God well enough at this point to understand that I was still loved and could be forgiven. [00:12:13] And so we were going to have a baby, and we were going to have to tell our new Christian community, which felt devastating.

I do praise God, though, that instead of staying in a place of shame and guilt, we learned what it meant to be truly forgiven by God and by people who followed Him closely and understood the message of forgiveness. 

I'll never forget telling some of the dearest people who wept with us and then committed to really walking with us in discipleship. And so we entered that new phase, and we dealt with the shame and humiliation that it brought, but understood truly what grace looked like and realized we weren't going to be perfect.

Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for sharing that piece. I wonder how many people can relate. And yet it's so crazy to get to sit here and know Hannah today and her amazing life and your relationship and the way things are decades later. [00:13:21] You've said the word "grace". Just grace upon grace. 

So life is changing a lot at this point, because even the timeline from connecting with Chad initially, that time when you thought, okay, well, I guess this will be my husband, how much time had passed before you were married and Hannah was born?

Susan Zobrist: We met in May of 1993, and we were married in August of 1995. And then Hannah was born in December of 1995.

Laura Dugger: Okay, and then she wasn't the last child that you had. You were on a trajectory with a lot of life change every year. And so even as you look back at that season, how did life change after that point, including your highs and your lows as you and Chad progressed together in your Christian walk?

Susan Zobrist: Life changed a lot. I think our perspective changed so much. Just coming up against hard things wasn't quite so hard when we had the Lord in our lives. [00:14:27] 

Some of the things that we faced in those years, we experienced three different times... We had three miscarriages. And God just brought several women who had experienced the same loss and pointed me to Christ during that time. 

My husband had a bout with depression that was really hard to support. I didn't understand that struggle and what he was battling, but God did. And through counseling and the proper tools, we've experienced victory in that. And we are certain that God is with us in that.

My dad actually returned to my life in 2012 after being absent for many years. He had an expectation that I would take care of him. When he returned, he was homeless. He had nothing and just kind of showed up with this expectation that he would just be welcomed back. 

As a believer, I studied the Scriptures and looked at what was my responsibility in caring for him, and I found that it was to honor my father. [00:15:35] And what does that look like when you have pain from that and you are upset and frustrated with him and don't want to enable what has happened in his life? Just the choices he had made had led him to a very dark and ugly place. 

So I made the promise that he would have food, shelter, and clothing. So Chad and I prayed through it and we took him actually to the Peoria Rescue Mission where he stayed for 45 days. I visited him there. I kept my end of the promise to care for him in that way. He had a heart attack during that time. And so I got him to a doctor. Ultimately, he ended up in a nursing home nearby. I cared for him until the day he died in 2016. 

When he came back into my life, I had to let him know that he was forgiven. And I had to do that to release myself from just the pain and the frustration that I was feeling from him. So that was a very low point. That actually coincided with when Chad was going through depression. So just a very, very low place in our life. [00:16:47] 

In that time, we had three children in 37 months, three girls, and then two miscarriages in the middle of that. And then we had our youngest two and a half years later followed by one more miscarriage. So we had a lot of life change in those times. But it was such a joyous time too.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

[00:17:12]

Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. 

Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses.

Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

[00:18:41]

Laura Dugger: And even pausing to go back into that season when you now have four daughters so close in age, how did you and Chad stay united in that time? And what do you look back... you said it's a joyous season, so if you could put your finger on certain things that helped make it joyful, what would you share?

Susan Zobrist: One thing that God brought to us in a very early stage of our parenting was the idea of homeschooling. Our oldest got migraine headaches when she was four, and we ran a bunch of tests on her with the help of neurology and things and realized that she just had a trigger for stress that would give her migraines at four years old, which was just something I'd never heard. 

So we were kind of thrown into the idea of homeschooling because the doctor said, "I don't think she could make it through a day of kindergarten." Well, I kind of had a different view of homeschooling that I thought I would never do such a thing, but God is so good in the way that He can change our perspective and call us to something that He'll equip us for. [00:19:49] 

Those years were a true gift. We had four girls in a span of six years, and so it was just a joy to spend all our time with them during the days. Chad ran a small business in town, so he would come home for lunch every day, and we would have lunch together as a family and spend just such quality time with each other. Being that we spent so much time with our children because they were home all the time, we did prioritize date nights every week, and we were actually in a small group that met every single week. 

So we would get a babysitter every Thursday night, and we would go to our small group where we had some of the best support. We were all pregnant with our first child, at the same time talking about parenting. And as you know, I didn't grow up in a Christian home, so I had no idea what I was doing. So Chad and I both were so committed to learning how to be Christian parents. [00:20:49] 

Several of the people in our group were experiencing the same thing, but we were blessed to have a couple people in there who had been raised by wonderful Christian parents. So we were on that journey with different couples, and they are still dear friends of ours today. So we're really grateful for that. 

Chad and I also found things that we enjoy doing together, whether it be watching college basketball games, or he's a hunter, so I would go sit in the deer stand with him and try to be quiet. But those are things that we just developed that we found. We enjoy being together, and so we prioritize that time as well.

Laura Dugger: I think that's so evident, even when our paths initially crossed, and you two would be doing your walk or your workouts at the same time. And I think also we see such a piece of humor playing in the relationship, in your whole family. But going back to the homeschooling, just one quick story. I don't know if I've shared this with you, but I was in town just at the local grocery store, and... I think it was a Sunday afternoon. [00:21:54] We had forgotten something and ran in, and it happened to be a day where all four of our daughters were dressed alike. 

And this woman stopped me, and she said, "Oh, four girls so close together. You remind me of this woman that I saw a few years back, and she was dressed the same as her four daughters." I said, "Is that Susan Zobrist?" And sure enough. 

Susan Zobrist: Oh, that's so funny. 

Laura Dugger: So I counted it one of the highest compliments in parenting to be compared to you. But then there were other surprising adventures that God called you into. So will you take us further into your story?

Susan Zobrist: Yeah. I feel like as soon as we were all in for God, it was like there were just so many opportunities that God used to just navigate our lives, and we were very open to just obedience and what that looked like. Whatever God called us to do, we thought we had the courage to take the step of obedience and just thought that's what we do now that we follow the Lord. [00:22:57] 

So the blessing of having four children, that was huge. I mean, it just took us on a wild ride. That was such a blessing. Also at church, there was a class that said "how to start a neighborhood Bible study". Well, I thought that was just so exciting because I thought... we had moved into a newer neighborhood in town. Actually, when we moved in, it had a dirt road. And so we were one of the first houses there. It was a spec house that we just took the dive and moved into. So we got to see all the houses be built. We got to see the road be paved.

And I was pretty anxious about starting this neighborhood Bible study. There was another neighbor down the street that went to our church as well. And I said, "Would you be willing to help with this?" And she's like, "Sure." I said, "Well, when do you want to start?" And she had the idea, "Why don't we start when the sidewalk gets paved?" And I thought, "Okay, I'll be patient until then." 

I had my girls one day go out, put an invitation in every single mailbox. There were probably 65 mailboxes at the time to an invitation. [00:23:59] Come and find out about a neighborhood Bible study for women. Well, I probably had 25 women show up at my house that night for just an informational meeting. And probably over the course of four years, I think it was like 47 of the women came at some point to this Bible study. And it was so amazing to watch God work through me. And all I had to do was say yes and open my home. So that was a really exciting adventure that God had called me to.

Laura Dugger: You really do model this so well about loving your neighbor. It seems neighbors have always been so important to you. And even that's how our relationship began. And I'm so grateful. But the power that God speaks in the Bible about loving our neighbor, there was so much transformation that you witnessed. Are there any stories that come to mind even from that Bible study? [00:25:00] 

Susan Zobrist: Yeah. I have one that's really hard, and it was very life-changing for me. One of the houses around the corner in our neighborhood... We live in a circle neighborhood. So it's just one circle with an inside circle as well. But there was an older woman living down the street and her daughter was living with her who was probably a little younger than me. And the mom and daughter started coming to the Bible study. They attended the Catholic Church and just really got into the Bible study. 

Ultimately the daughter started coming to church with me. Well, she had a daughter who was autistic and who wasn't living with her at the time. She was at a school somewhere else with the dad. And they were living kind of apart. Eventually, the daughter and the husband came back home. And so the daughter moved from her mom's house back to her house but continued to attend the Bible study. [00:26:00] 

Well, anyway, on a Sunday, it was Mother's Day, actually, I saw on the TV it said that the daughter of this woman was found dead. I saw it on the news and I thought, "I have to go. This woman has been in my living room, in my Bible study, I need to go find her." And it was the autistic daughter had been found dead. 

So I drove to her house immediately and her mom was in the driveway and I said, "Where is she?" And she said, "She's at the hospital. She's tried to kill herself now since her daughter died." And she said, "How do you know about this?" And I said, "It was on the news." And she said, "You need to leave." So something in me just knew that something was really wrong.

The next day, I arranged for two of my pastors to take me to the hospital where she was, only because I had built this relationship with her through the neighborhood Bible study and we had become pretty close. [00:27:08] This gal really struggled with trusting the Lord because she thought she was being punished for some reason that's why she had this autistic daughter. And she was a doctor herself, so she thought she should be able to fix her. 

Anyway, I went into the hospital and pastor on each side of me. I turned back around and said, "I don't know if I can do this." And they said, "Do you believe that she can be forgiven if she's done something wrong?" Because in my mind, I thought maybe she had killed her. 

So we turned around, went back to the waiting room and they prayed with me and asked me again, "Do you believe she can be forgiven if she did something horrific?" And at that moment, I believed God can forgive anything. And they said, "Then you need to go in and tell her that."

So they walked me in and she looked at me and she said... I mean, she hadn't said to anybody what had happened. And she looked at me and she said, "I snapped. I killed her." [00:28:09] And I looked her in the eyes and I said, "You can be forgiven for this." And I prayed with her. That moment changed my life and what I truly believed. 

I walked back out and an hour later, there was a guard at her door and she was never to be seen again. She has continued to spend the rest of her life in prison. She was convicted of murder of her daughter. I kept in touch with her for a long time. I'd go visit her in jail and we'd talk about how God can love her and forgive her. And she has come to know the Lord. She is doing Bible studies for other prisoners.

Even in our neighborhood, I don't know how our neighborhood would have handled such a thing had we not had the bond of that Bible study. And we knew we could come together and we could pray and we could wrestle with what had happened in our neighborhood together. [00:29:11] So I don't know why God did that with that perfect timing, but I'm so thankful he did. You know, and it was life-changing for many of us in hard ways, but also some pretty amazing ways in our lives.

Laura Dugger: Wow. There are no words adequate after that, but I think you draw out His timing. Such a gift. And even going back to how you started this, your obedience, simple obedience, He let you be a part of life change and getting to offer her that, that timing is just incredible and really because it's supernatural. 

Have you checked out our library of articles available at thesavvysauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. [00:30:13] 

If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox. Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read, to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect at a more relational level.

We hope you check out all the available reads at thesavvysauce.com under the articles tab. Okay. So that was a powerful story about what you got to experience through saying yes to God. Were there any other stories that come to mind from really radical obedience, but just simple obedience?

Susan Zobrist: I think that experience kind of set the stage for what God can do through any of us when we're willing to say yes. He'll give us the courage. He'll give us the strength. [00:31:14] 

So it was something that was just normal for Chad and I was just to take that next step. I really felt the call to pursue overseas missions. And so we would always just kind of take the next step and see where God would take us. And so often God would lead us down a path. It was almost like He was saying, just checking to see if you'd be obedient, and then He would clearly close the door.

For example, stepping into a ministry here in the United States, we said yes to that. God took us down a path, closed the door clearly. We were going to go do overseas missions in Germany as house parents. We took our children over there to experience that. And really we got to the point of starting to raise funds and God closed the door on that and said, "I'm not ready for you to go." Those were types of things. 

And that was a little bit frustrating because we had seen how God could use us when we would say yes. [00:32:16] But then we began to trust His timing more and more and understand that His plan is best and that we shouldn't push through doors that were closing.

Ultimately, I just continued to have a stirring in my heart for ministry. I was a stay-at-home mom full time. But it was starting to get to the point where my kids were... some of them had gone to school at that point. So I wasn't homeschooling everybody anymore. And I had some extra time on my hands. So I looked for ways to volunteer.

I ended up doing that in the south side of Peoria through delivering groceries to elderly people. That was something really scary at first for me. But building relationships with these older women who just needed their physical needs met, that was really satisfying. And God just blessed me to be able to do that. 

And then ultimately, God laid on my heart to start a school on the south side of Peoria. And that was something that God had stirred in me earlier on. [00:33:16] I thought about starting a school for homeschool students where we could kind of do a collective school together when I felt like, you know, we were meeting together anyway. Why don't we do a school where we could collaborate in that way? 

I had a heart to do this, but then I shared it with a friend and she said, well, why would you do that where people have access to a Christian school? Why wouldn't you do that on the south end of Peoria? And I thought, Wow, God had just placed me on the south end of Peoria. And it started to make a lot of sense. 

So He opened the doors for us to start a Christian school on the south side of Peoria for parents who desired a Christian education or some alternative education who couldn't afford what was offered in Peoria. So that led to that.

Laura Dugger: Which is incredible to hear these little seeds. Was that Cassie Meiss?

Susan Zobrist: Yes.

Laura Dugger: We'll, again, link to that episode where you and Lisa and Cassie shared the full story of Southside Christian Academy. [00:34:16] But I love, even looking back in your story, how God would test you and give you something, and then if He closed the door... I remember Him even speaking to "thank you so much for your obedience, but this is not what I have for you."

It even makes me think of Joseph in the Bible where you were given this vision of the school I think when your kids were really little. And you started a binder for it. 

Susan Zobrist: Ten steps to start a school. 

Laura Dugger: But then just like Joseph, that dream, He still had a plan for it, but the timing was probably a lot longer than you initially anticipated. Will you just catch us up, though, on SSCA? Where are you at presently?

Susan Zobrist: Sure. We are currently in our ninth year of school. We have over 100 students that we are serving on the Southside of Peoria. We are fully staffed in a K-8 school with several volunteers and wonderful people who are supporting. [00:35:17] Our finances are great. We're so thankful for donors who have just poured into the school that that's something that we don't have to worry about. But God is surely blessing the ministry.

Laura Dugger: Yes, indeed. It's apparent to see. And even one more piece, that zip code where the school is located, that's unique, too.

Susan Zobrist: Can you share why? Sure. The 61605 zip code in Peoria is one of the 100 poorest zip codes in the country. So the support that families have in the schools, they're a poor school system that does their best with what they have. But it's kind of a broken area that I do feel. That there is hope that maybe these students who are being educated and who are hopefully going to be drawn to the Lord at some point in their lives would come back into that area and pour back into it and make it a place that will thrive someday.

Laura Dugger: And have you seen any life change? Are there any students that have put their faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior? [00:36:20] 

Susan Zobrist: We definitely believe there are some. What that looks like looks a little different than when I saw it in my own children. But, yeah, we are nurturing them, we are discipling them, and we are walking alongside in however way we can do that to be sure that they are discipled in the truth.

Laura Dugger: Incredible what you're consistently doing. And just a good reminder for us to be praiseful as well. But, Susan, I've always admired the way that you parented your four now adult and married daughters. But when you reflect back over the years, what would you say were some things that worked best for raising them?

Susan Zobrist: I would say number one, we always prioritized church together. So we took our kids to church. We had them sit in the pews with us.  We took them to Sunday school. We took them to Wednesday night activities. That became their community and their family. [00:37:25] 

I feel like that was something that we allowed other people to speak into our children at a very young age. And they were used to that where there was accountability with other families. And that was huge, especially at the beginning of when we were raising our children.

I do think, too, having a consistent routine was so helpful in our home. Kids really do best when they know what to expect. I would just encourage people to be thoughtful about that plan. Because whether it's what to serve for dinner, what the plan is for the week, if it's can we order soda tonight at the restaurant, let those things be known prior because it just takes the anxiety and the questioning out of your kids when they know what to expect.

It makes far less arguments. And having to deal with real difficult moments and setting the tone proactive instead of reactive, that was so good for us. [00:38:26] We didn't do that perfectly ever but we got better at it as our parenting grew. 

I would say consistency and discipline. Same kind of thing. This was kind of ridiculous. But remember, too, we were coming out of a life of chaos and no discipline in our lives to a very structured way. When we threw off the things that didn't please the Lord and were trying to put on the things that did, we had a really hard time not becoming legalistic. That was really challenging for us because we had to say hard no's to things that were temptations in our lives. 

We wanted to see our kids not have those temptations around them, so we had some hard, fast no's that probably looked legalistic and probably were. And we were, thankfully... like we grew out of those as we grew stronger in the Lord. And we had his strength to say no to things so we could be around things. [00:39:34] 

But the discipline, the consistent discipline, our kids knew if you did this, this is what you have chosen as discipline, as correction. Because we're going to make that very clear to you that it is your choice how you're going to live. So if you choose this, then this. We actually had a chart up that said, if... then; if... then. And... I don't know. I mean, we learned to be more flexible. But in the very early years, I think it was really good for our kids to know what to expect.

Laura Dugger: I think that's so helpful. Even Mark is reading a book right now by Craig Groeschel and it's a lot about making pre-decisions wherever possible and kind of what you're speaking to. But then, can you just give one example of an "if... then" for a parent to grab onto? If my child talks back or if they blatantly disrespect us, what was a consequence that helped? [00:40:36] 

Susan Zobrist: Consequences were different for every child. That's for sure, too. Because it's not a one-size-fits-all. We got to know the hearts of each one of our children. Something that worked for Hannah, our firstborn, certainly didn't work for Natalie, our second born. Their personalities were way too different.

For example, we didn't do disrespect. So, good example. But if you speak disrespectfully, you would get your mouth washed out. And it was rare. I mean, we had to do that very few times because they knew what that was going to be like if it happened. By the time they were old enough to really make the choice, they weren't going to choose that. And I do believe the "if... then", but our kids also did, I feel like, made a commitment to the Lord at early ages. And I saw conviction in their hearts pretty young, which was just a gift from the Lord, honestly. [00:41:40] 

I feel like training was very, very firm for probably the first five years. And then moving forward from there, it was... you know, they just knew what to expect.

Laura Dugger: And then even fast forwarding to present day, they all seem to be best friends with each other and with you and Chad. Still a very close family. Would you agree?

Susan Zobrist: I would. I would. It's really neat to see our four girls live in different places. I have been so blessed to watch them prioritize visiting each other one-on-one. I get a little jealous. I'm like, I wish I was there. But it's such a gift to watch them, you know, have relationships with each other from the youngest to the oldest to the middle two. You know, it's really sweet.

Laura Dugger: I think that's always a helpful vision to know what's true in our present reality, if we are in a season of really heavy discipline, to know, fast forward a few years and it will look very different. [00:42:42] That was super helpful because it was talking about parenting those little years. But do you have any other things upon reflection that you would recommend for those middle and bigger and even adult stages of parenting?

Susan Zobrist: Back to middles kind of and maybe into bigs, I see a lot of parents fearing like rebellious children and if I have too many rules, they're going to rebel. I guess something that we really worked through was when we're expecting our children to live counterculturally, we have to be willing to do it too. You know, I've seen parents who don't do that, but want their children to live that way. So we made a choice as a family to do that. And it was difficult. It's a lonely place at times. But being committed to that, I think, and holding fast to that, but also having each other was really helpful. [00:43:44] 

One example. So our second daughter, Natalie, she had a group of friends who really liked movies, like watching movies at the time. And that was when you had to go to the movie store and like rent movies. And she was just like, "What movies can I even watch?" And she would ask that. So every time they'd go to the video store, I'd go to the plugged-in movie reviews, write down a bunch of movies. She would have them in her pocket and she would pull them out and say, "How about this movie?" And then they would be like, "What about this movie?" And she's like, "Well, it's not on my list." She got braver and braver to do that. But it was hard. But eventually she was respected for her opinions and her thoughts.

Ultimately they did become her own. They weren't hers at first, but she was steadfast in obeying. And then her heart grew to, okay, I get why they're doing this. 

So being consistent and sticking with your idea that you need to live according to a certain way, even when it's really hard. [00:44:51] But not expecting only your kids to do it if you're not willing to do it as well, because they see it. 

A couple other things. Just home management in those times. I feel like that was something that was really important to us. So having a calendar on the wall that showed what was going on. Again, it's just expectations that they can see what's going on. 

Chores and lists and cleaning schedules, having toilets on Tuesdays, whatever. And having everyone have a little bit of responsibility in that. We didn't make our kids do terribly amounts of chores, but it was good. They still remember. "Remember when we used to clean our baseboards every week?" And I'm like, "Yeah, hasn't been done for a long time."

Meal planning.  Like getting a grip on that from the beginning and getting them involved in that. And now I'm watching them all cook. And they love cooking. They do a really good job of meal planning and going to the grocery store and having a plan while they're having little kids too. [00:45:55] 

Intentional play dates. Being the house where people want to be. It's hard to allow your child to go to somebody's house these days. And so being the house that's always okay to say, "Sure, let them come. Sure, have them over" because that's going to be important in how they develop. 

One other thing just as they got older. Trust your children. Really believe them. When they say something, truly believe them until they prove you wrong. Don't think they're going to do something wrong. That was something we always just tried to really trust them and give them the freedom that was appropriate. 

We were taught very early on, probably beforehand, our oldest was even born, about a funnel. And just to start the funnel so small, and then as they go, you'll just see what you can trust them with. [00:46:55] And don't give that trust to them until they're trustworthy in it. But you'll know, and you'll be able to just open that funnel more and more and more as they get older and as your relationship develops with them. But just give them opportunity to be trusted was a big deal for us too.

Laura Dugger: Okay, Susan, so we've covered a lot of phases, but you're also in this unique time where now your daughters are married. They're having kids of their own. So I'm sure your relationship with them has gone through waves and different changes. What wisdom would you share for how you're relating to them now?

Susan Zobrist: So, initially, when our children have gotten married, and they don't live in town, because the ones that we don't see as often, we would have a weekly FaceTime. We would sit on the couch, they would sit on their couch, and we would catch up on the week. We'd, of course, talk little bits here and there during the week as well. But we made that a priority. And it was a great way for Chad and I to catch up with the couples. [00:47:59] 

Well, then grandkids started coming. And so I would talk with my daughter and her children during the week, and then Chad would do the same. So we kind of lost that one-on-one time with the adults, and it became more about the grandchildren. That was really fun, of course, but we never got great conversation with the adults who were not living in our town. 

One day, my oldest daughter, Hannah, actually called me and said, "Can we talk?" And I said, "Sure." And she said, "I really miss you, and I really miss us talking. I feel like we never get time to just talk about things that are important to us. It's always about the grandkids." Wow, that was really convicting to me, but it was also such a blessing. I thought, Thank you so much for saying it, and thank you that that's how you feel and conveying that message to me.

So we have made it a priority now to every other week for sure to have a phone call that's during their naps, and it's just me and her. [00:49:01] And we catch up on the things that need to be caught up on between mom and daughter and friend to friend. 

So I would just encourage, of course, love the grandkids and value the time when you're all together but take moments to connect with your children one-on-one. Even dads, you have a really special relationship with your daughters. Moms, special relationships with sons. I've seen that in a lot of my friends. Keep those connections because they're just valuable. 

Also, we've made it a point, which I got this from a dear friend of mine, I said, "How do you see grandkids who are living in different states, or how do you connect with your children who aren't living in the same town?" And she said, "Our goal was to see them once a month somehow." And so we've made that our goal. It doesn't always happen, but we're pretty close and pretty consistent at this point in our lives. 

So whether they come here, whether we go there, whether we meet somewhere, it's such a priority. [00:50:04] And I think it speaks to our children and their children of the importance that they are in our lives. So that's been a really special thing that we've adopted, too.

Laura Dugger: Wow. You articulate that so well. And I'm even thinking of our own story. We never outgrow that desire to be one-on-one with our parents and to have that special time together, that attention. And as Mark and I moved around the country, I'm so grateful that both sets of our parents invested in that as well. And sometimes even living far apart, we would have such quality time together that was deep and connecting. And so whether it's the adult child or the adult parent, I think either one can initiate that. But that is such a good word of wisdom. 

Is there any other encouragement that you want to make sure you leave us with?

Susan Zobrist: I want to talk just a little bit about the new phase that we're in, being an empty nester and being a grandma. [00:51:03] Honestly, this has been a little more difficult than I had anticipated. And, you know, I'd been a full-time mom for so long, I didn't realize that once they were all gone, how much I depended on my relationship with them and them being present in my home. 

I'm so grateful for the ways the Lord prepared my heart for letting go, but it's really hard. But just like every other season, this one takes some real intentionality. For example, I remember looking at Chad on the day that we knew for sure that they're not coming back. So I'm so thankful God gave us in those moments to say, now what, together. Because it's so easy to just go separate ways and live your lives because you're like, oh, it's the same person at the dinner table again tonight. You know, what are we going to talk about and what are we going to do? 

Talk about the plan. [00:52:04] Talk about what are we going to do. Remember the things you loved doing together as a family, remember the things you loved to do together just the two of you, and formulate the things that you're going to do together now. Because it's really quiet and it's really kind of lonely once everybody's gone. 

Find new ways to connect. Surround yourselves with community of people who are also in the Empty Nest stage, but also who aren't. I mean, Chad, he sticks around kids all the time because that gives him life. And I just have been able to form deep friendships with people who are in my stage. But he has to keep the younger families be connected to them. He'll be like, Hey, I'll watch your kids because he just enjoys that, you know. He knows what he needs to do to stay from getting depressed again or lonely and those types of things. [00:53:05] 

Do whatever it takes to get yourselves right physically, mentally, emotionally. Exercise. It's so big because you can just become kind of slumped, you know, in a slump and not feel active like you used to be when you were running kids here and there and going to their events and things like that. It's like you can sit on the couch whenever you want and that's not going to make you feel good physically, mentally, and emotionally. 

Go to a counselor together and say, now what? Can you help us? Because this is a really big life change. Be proactive and not reactive when some of those really hard moments come. Go get your well checkup from your doctor. Figure out your hormones because you change. I mean, we're getting older and our bodies are changing. And we want to be good physically to play with our grandkids and emotionally and mentally to take on the cares and the burdens that they have, too. [00:54:05] We're watching our kids go through hard things now as adults and their families and we want to be well to walk alongside with them.

So, it's not a time to just fall apart and deteriorate and sit and be lonely and sad. We want to be the best we can be for these next years, too. So, that's something that's been... it's new and it's hard. It's really hard.

Laura Dugger: But I think it even circles back to that first scripture that you were teaching us about continuing to add to this thing. And you said, God will be with us every step of the way with progressive sanctification. But I think that's a really good practical example of it.

Well, this time has been amazing, but you know that there's still one more question coming because we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, Susan, what is your savvy sauce? [00:55:06] 

Susan Zobrist: My savvy sauce currently is to be rooted and stay rooted in God's word and in community with His people. That's based on Psalm 1:3. Just, you know, a tree planted by streams of water yields fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. I feel like we were kind of starting to wither. And it's because we didn't care for ourselves. And so, it's like, okay, replant, you know, get rooted even deeper and stay in His word and in community and fellowship with His people.

Laura Dugger: I think that is so encouraging as well. Because even if we've gotten a little off track or fallen off somewhere, we can course correct with the Lord and it can be reinvigorating. 

Susan Zobrist: Absolutely.

Laura Dugger: But truly, in every season, you have been such a gift. I remember the first time that my sister-in-law, Amanda, introduced us when we were just first moving into our first home and you were instantly a friend. [00:56:08] You were someone I could turn to for parenting advice. Chad would give us a hard time when we would get pregnant with number three and four. And he'd say, "Congrats on the girl." And we're like, "Well, we don't know yet."

Susan Zobrist: Oh, we know.

Laura Dugger: He said, "Oh, we know how this goes. It's a girl." Which he was right every time. But you have been such a blessing and a mentor and a friend. And now it's fun to be friends with your daughters as well. We just love your family so, so much. You're very dear. And thank you for being willing to share your story today.

Susan Zobrist: Thank you for the opportunity. And thank you for your ministry. It's such a blessing to so many. And I just pray that it continues to do that.

Laura Dugger: Thank you.

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. [00:57:08] 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:58:12] 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:59:18] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Release: Theology and Discipleship with Ken Baugh

Colossians 3:1 (NIV) Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Will you elaborate about God's design for vertical and horizontal relationships?

Ken Baugh was a successful pastor before a crippling experience of burnout disrupted his career and set him on a journey to better understand the dynamics of spiritual health. With a DMin from Talbot Theological Seminary, Ken is the founder and CEO of IDT Ministries.

IDT Ministries Discipleship Website

Pastor Ken Baugh's YouTube Channel

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

Unhindered Abundance by Ken Baugh

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

246. Stories of God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore

Isaiah 7:10-11 MSG "God spoke again to Ahaz. This time he said, "Ask for a sign from your GOD. Ask anything. Be extravagant. Ask for the moon!"

**Transcription Below**

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

Jen Moore is a beloved daughter of God, wife, and homeschooling mom. God wrote her story in ways she did not expect, but she worships Him through every chapter He continues to write.

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00]

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18]

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com. 

Jen Moore is my guest today. We've only known each other for about a year, but she's the type of person you can just dive into deep conversation with immediately. One of the first times I remember that we were hanging out for a park date, and she shared a bit of her journey with me and it has just stuck with me for months. So I invited her here today to share it in more detail with all of us.

Here's our chat. 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jen. [00:01:19] 

Jen Moore: I'm so happy to be here, Laura. Thanks for having me. 

Laura Dugger: Well, will you just start us off by telling me about your upbringing, and share even how you first encountered Jesus Christ.

Jen Moore: So I grew up in Miami, Florida, into a family that immigrated from Guatemala. My parents did the best they could with the circumstances they had to conquer. I was raised in a Hispanic Baptist church.

When I was a teenager, we started attending a Pentecostal church. Even with attending the church for various activities three days a week, I would say I did not encounter Jesus well into my adulthood. I had a brief hiatus from the Lord after moving out of my parents' house. When I came back to Christ, I really got to experience the love of the Father in various ways.

Laura Dugger: I love hearing people's backgrounds, so thank you for sharing that. Next, will you also walk us through your love story and your experience of becoming a mother to so many daughters? [00:02:24] 

Jen Moore: Yeah, I like to use our love story as the fun fact when we go to parties, because our story is unique. Andy and I got married to each other twice. We got married really young, at the age of 19 and 25, after meeting through a mutual friend that was interning in his engineering office. 

We got married and moved in and got pregnant all within our first year. So it's a lot. We started our family, and of course, a lot of trauma and childhood issues arose, which led to divorce, where we were either confronted on healing or avoiding and hurting someone else in the future. But God was so gracious and picked us to redeem our story, and we remarried. And guess what? We remarried and we continued to have more babies. [00:03:24] 

It was a hard and fast love story. I loved being his wife and his biggest supporter as he grew in his career and all his adventures.

Laura Dugger: Wow. There's so much even in that. How many years was it between your divorce and then your remarriage to each other?

Jen Moore: It was a year being divorced, so it was two years we were not married, technically. But we said we sucked at being divorced because we were always together. It was just deeper issues that kind of led to that. I'm just grateful for the redemption story just within that marriage of how God chose us to be together after Him coming into our lives and healing and repairing our hearts.

Laura Dugger: Wow. And so you and Andy were both walking with the Lord now at this point and had how many daughters right then? [00:04:26] 

Jen Moore: So we were married for seven years and had three at that point — three beautiful girls. And then we got divorced, and after that we were separated for about a year. And then we got remarried and worked together for an additional three years and had two more daughters. So in total, it was about 12 years together.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Did you have any warnings that things were about to drastically change?

Jen Moore: Yes. I had kind of this unrelenting anxiety and fear that someone in my close circle, immediate family, was about to die. It was either one of the girls or it was Andy. But it seemed like everywhere I looked, there were stories of hardship and grief that surrounded me. [00:05:26] 

I had this pressure to know all the answers about how the house ran and what our finances looked like and what we had in savings and life insurance. It was one of those things that I wrestled with. It was hard to live with that anxiety, especially trying to balance if it's just me, this unhealthy pattern, or I was only five, six weeks postpartum, so maybe it was hormones. But even then I tried to control the narrative by having Andy eat healthier, or I got those Owlet monitors for the baby so I could track how she's breathing and sleeping through the night. Even then, God's plan was and is far greater than mine. 

Now, looking back, maybe it was one of God's many graces as he worked to prepare my heart for one of the most unexpected things that was to come. [00:06:26] 

Laura Dugger: We'll leave this story hanging for just a moment because I'd love to know what's a picture of your life at that time. That was the internal anxieties. But all of your girls' ages, and you and Andy, are you working or what was kind of the day-to-day?

Jen Moore: Yeah. He had just sold off his engineering business to a bigger company that was coming into the area, so he was in the throes of getting more clients and building up their company. So he worked five days a week, long days, pretty filled with meetings and trips and all that.

I stayed home with the girls. I think [Kalia?] was 11, maybe 10 going to be 11, and then stair-stepped from there, 7. And then Penelope was 5, I think. [00:07:28] And then Frankie was just going to turn 2, and then Weather was only 6 weeks old. So I stayed home with them. I homeschooled them at home. I mean, we just lived a pretty simple life of, you know, just home and school and church.

Laura Dugger: Well, and this next part is more difficult to get through, but what is the unexpected event that happened next?

Jen Moore: So, on March 10, 2020, when the world was entering the era of COVID, I entered into widowhood as my sweet husband went to be with Jesus. It started out, of course, as a normal morning. I'm prepping breakfast with the girls, and I'm nursing the baby. I'm homeschooling the older girls. I hadn't heard from Andy in a few hours, but I knew he was away on a business trip in Alabama. [00:08:34] We lived in the panhandle of Florida at that time.

The next thing I knew, I got a call. And it's one of those calls on your phone where you just know you have to answer. And it was from the local hospital in the town that he was on his business trip with. They told me that Andy was in a car accident with a logger truck and he was in critical condition and that I had to hurry and get there as fast as possible. 

So I hurried and took the girls to a friend's house, except the baby, who was a newborn and I drove the few hours away. But along the way, I knew it wasn't a 'critical condition' situation. I just knew he died. To be honest, it was the biggest and most greatest fear that I ever had in my life. [00:09:39] It was the one that I always went back to when I was really scared. What would I do if Andy died? How would I support the family? How would I move forward? And right there in front of me, it became a reality.

As I pulled back the hospital curtains and saw my husband just bruised and battered, laying on the hospital bed. You know, I've never experienced my knees completely being weak, but they buckled when I saw him. And all I remember is, all I had the strength was to crawl over to him and just hold his hand.

Laura Dugger: Jen, it makes me so emotional. Just the humility of you to share such a sacred space and time with us. And I'm sure we're all feeling the collective... I'm so sorry. So your big fear had just become a reality. What did it look like after that? [00:10:55] 

Jen Moore: Yeah, no one really prepares you for that. I mean, it's not something you expect to be walking in at the age of 31. You know, just what does that even look like? 

I remember being at the hospital and then just staying there for several hours, mostly because I didn't know what to do. Nobody told me, now you go home, now you find a funeral home, now you do this, now you do that. The thought of just leaving him there was unimaginable. It's not something that I wanted to do, but I was not... I mean, even my parents and the friends that I had there, we all just kind of looked at each other like, now what? But God is just so good. [00:11:56] 

I mean, we always fall back on this verse, Psalms 34:18 says, "The Lord is close to the brokenhearted. He rescues those whose spirits are crushed." As I entered a season of early, deep, heart-wrenching grief, I got to experience God quite like I never had before.

Laura Dugger: And how did God reveal Himself, especially in those early days of grief?

Jen Moore: God's just so faithful and He's so good. Like I said, it was my biggest fear. I had basically let Andy have this career and I just supported the household. Getting married at 19, I didn't go back to school. I just had babies and became a mother. And so my biggest fear was how to support these kids. Like, what are we going to do now? Now what? [00:12:56] Do I have to go get a job? What does that look like? 

So the first way he showed up was he was on a work trip. So it was considered like a worker's compensation claim, which I never even registered in my mind. But there was all these things that I had to learn. And with a claim like that, you can choose your state in which you claim it in. The accident was elsewhere and we lived in Florida. So we either claim it Florida or the accident was in Alabama. It was vastly different, the claims.

In Florida, they give you a one-time payout, which would have covered a couple of years. But in Alabama, they give you a payout of over 60% of his pay for 10 years. Andy was if it happened in an intersection, if you would have happened in the next one, it would have been Florida. [00:14:02] He was four miles away from the state line. 

So when the employer showed this to me, everyone was just speechless. Like, do you know what this means? And I just looked at him like, God, that's God. That's God taking care of me. I'm excited and I'm rejoicing not because my husband's dead, but because look at what God did. Four mile difference of me being able to care for my kids just a little bit longer than if it would have happened in Florida. So that was one way.

There was another time where the days of widowhood, I remember you don't realize how empty and cold your bed feels until your husband's gone for a really long time. And I just wanted to feel a hug, the weight of, you know, having someone hold me and feeling that warmth. [00:15:03] I just remember praying, God, I just want to feel held by somebody. I know I feel held by you, but I just would love that physical feeling of being held. 

And then that day, a girl from my small group that really... I mean, we didn't have a great close relationship. We knew of each other, but it wasn't like a deep friendship. She showed up with a weighted blanket. And that was such a gift for so many months of just having that weight on me. It was like a hug every single night.

Between that and heating pad, I mean, it really made those days just a little bit easier to get through. Just a little less cold. You know, that reminder not being so in your face at night, especially with the darkness of the night, you know. 

Andy was a flower giver. He loved showing up with flowers, and I love receiving flowers. [00:16:05] And for my birthday, I just remember being like, "All I want, God, that's all I want. I just want flowers, just flowers like Andy would give me. And a friend would be so faithful to answer that push from the Lord on their heart, and I would get flowers. And they would just, "Oh, I just felt like I needed to give you these." And I'm like, "These are my flowers. These are the ones I prayed for."

I would always shock people with my reaction, but it was so... like, seeing your prayers answered in such a tangible way, I mean, there's no greater feeling than that. It just makes you excited that the God of the universe is looking down at you and saying, You, Jen, matter to me, even in this state. 

I'm reminded of a story with Penelope. She's my third, and she is... basically, if there was a unicorn and human version, it would be her. She's just joy in a cup. And she's such a gift to our family, because even when we don't see joy, she finds it somewhere. 

For her birthday, Penelope prayed for a sign from heaven that her daddy was seeing her and loved her and missed her on her birthday. I asked her, "Penelope, what do you want to pray for?" And she said, "How about a rainbow?" And I said, "Why don't we go a little bit bigger and ask for a double rainbow?" And we just ended our prayer and the next morning, as we're getting ready for her birthday party, and I'm brushing her hair, she turns her head to look right outside and to our delight, there was a rainbow. [00:18:12] And not only was it a rainbow, but it was a double rainbow. 

We all ran outside. It was raining. We were all just screaming and just praising God in our driveway, because we saw the rainbow outside. The girls were just in such disbelief that their prayer was answered. But they're asking, and then they're believing that just created that rainbow. I just will never forget that moment. 

I had a friend text me after I posted a picture about the rainbow, she said, I saw that rainbow this morning, and it felt like it was for somebody as I drove under it. And I thought, "Yeah, it was for Penelope." And that was so confirming for me, you know.

Laura Dugger: That is incredible. Even last night, I was reading a book, and it pointed out a scripture in a version that I don't commonly read, but I appreciate. [00:19:14] It's in Isaiah 7 from the Message version. It came back again this morning in my quiet time. And so I'm just going to read it. And it's what God encourages Ahaz. 

It's the Message, Isaiah 7:10-11. "God spoke again to Ahaz. This time he said, ask for a sign from your God. Ask anything. Be extravagant. Ask for the moon." And Jen, it just brings me to tears again to think of the personal delight that our Savior takes in our lives in every detail. And it's so especially moving when He manifests Himself to our children and answers their prayers. 

Jen Moore: Wow, it's a beautiful verse.

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.

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[00:21:29]

Laura Dugger: Were there any other ways that you remember that he continued to keep meeting you right where you were at?

Jen Moore: Yeah. I have this one last story. Our lease was up shortly after Andy died, and I was confronted whether to buy a house or rent or things like that. And praying through that decision, it led me to buying a house. God put it strongly on my heart to tithe a big amount, $2,500. And I just fought it so hard because I was like, "God, am I hearing you right? Is that what my spirit is telling me?" With Andy being gone, every dollar mattered. Did I really want to tithe almost $3,000?" 

Then I went house hunting on a Saturday, and then I put an offer in the house, and it was countered. [00:22:30] They countered it at $302,500. At that point, I knew in my spirit, I had to take it because the last four numbers were what I tithed. And it was such a connection to what I had been praying. Like, I'm going to be faithful to you if you're obedient to me. And these small things like tithing. Because that night, when I put in this offer, I wasn't sure if it was going to be accepted.

I was just praying as I looked at all these beautiful houses, like, "God, that's the house I want. I think that's a house that would bring a lot of healing to our family." And it was just that connection of, I tithed that much, and then the counter was exactly what I tithed. The last numbers. I just love how God loves to show off, I think, honestly. [00:23:34] And just confirming those signs again and again, whether that's the right direction or not.

Laura Dugger: And with that house, is that where your family did end up experiencing a lot of healing?

Jen Moore: Yes. We grew together. A lot of the grief journey, when it comes to healing, is making things your own again. Whether that's your master bedroom, or your bathroom, or your kitchen, or your house decorations. You know, really just taking that back and creating a haven for yourself to really heal in. We used that house as that place.

It was within miles of all our community that helped me so much in my grief journey. I had a friend that lived three blocks away, and then I had another one that was maybe two minutes down the road. It really was just a place that was a catalyst to that, too. [00:24:36] 

Laura Dugger: And knowing you for a brief time so far, and looking forward to deepening our own friendship, I have already recognized that friendship and community is a high value of yours as well. And so were there any ways that your community showed up and loved you well through this?

Jen Moore: Yeah. My community was wonderful. They really were. I had two friends that took... every other weekend they would come and stay at my house for the weekends, Friday through Sunday. They helped with the baby, who was waking up at all hours. They helped catching up on laundry, and distracting the girls, and cooking meals. They did that for... I think it was like the first four months. And it was such a weight off my mom's shoulder, who felt like she needed to also be there. [00:25:35] I think I didn't cook for two months. There was a meal train for that long, which was so practical and easy to meet. 

The men's group willfully signed up and moved to my entire house without me even asking. They came, and... I mean, I was still packing boxes as they shoved them in the moving truck. I mean, they were just like a... They were just so wonderful. There was practical ways that they really, really met some needs right from the start.

Laura Dugger: And that's so encouraging to hear, because that is the church being what we hear so often, be the hands and feet of Jesus. And those men, I just envision they were the hands and the arms and feet of Jesus, carrying those boxes, and those women coming alongside you, and even offering that emotional support and the practicality of meals. That really is so helpful, especially in times of grief. [00:26:38] 

Jen Moore: Yeah.

Laura Dugger: Yeah, it really was. So how did your journey progress from there?

Jen Moore: Yeah. Since then, I've gotten remarried, which even through that, I've needed confirmation and God's reassurance that that's what He desired for my life. And that was the story for my girls, the story for Jeff, and the story for me.

Mending two families that are in and of itself gone through brokenness is hard. It seems sometimes on a daily basis that that hill is a little too hard to climb under my own strength. But God is so good. We had another baby. And this time it was a boy. And he's just such a joy. He really has been just such a sweet, sweet answer to our prayers for the girls and I. [00:27:42] I remember when we first found out it was a boy, and Jeff was like, "Jesus just loves you." I'm like, "He does! I wanted a boy, and I got one!"

Laura Dugger: That is incredible. After so many sweet, precious girls, and now Shepard is just so adorable and a welcome addition to the family. But even going back a little bit, are you comfortable sharing a few more details of how you and Jeff initially crossed paths, and how God continued to affirm, this is who I have for you?

Jen Moore: Yeah. We initially met at the coffee shop that our local church that we attended had. He was the barista that trained new volunteers. And I wanted to be a barista volunteer. So he trained me, and I just thought, "This guy's really charming." But I was married and really didn't think anything of it. And was like, "Well, he's too charming." I think I'll be safe and just go volunteer somewhere else. I didn't really continue that. That's just my initial meeting of Jeff. [00:28:50] 

Then fast forward to Andy dying and then when we had to move, I remember seeing him there loading up boxes. And I was like, "Oh, Jeff is still around. He still exists." Didn't think much of it at that point. When I remember that, and he tells me that story, I'm like, "What did I even look like?" I was like, "I was in the early days of great gross." But he hooked up my washer and my dryer.

Fast forward to a couple more months, and we got into a small group together. It was four families that really believed in doing life together. We met every Sunday. Our kids would play together and then the men would talk and then the women would talk. Or we would play board games and all laugh. We were a part of a group together but really didn't really speak to each other. [00:29:54] 

Then I just remember one time driving to small group and having those butterflies in your tummy feeling. And then being like, "Oh, no. This is not good." And I prayed. I prayed over anything those days and everything. So I was really clear with God, like, "If this is not of you, please take these feelings away." Like, I thought, I will be okay. I was in a spot where I was six, seven months out. I thought, I'm strong now. I feel stronger than I was before. The girls and I are in a good rhythm. I don't want this right now if this isn't what you want.

And he really confirmed it the next few days that was what He desired for Jeff and I. We had our first date, which was called an interview from Jeff standards, where I was pretty harsh with some of the questions. And he passed, and here we are. [00:31:05] 

Laura Dugger: So you go on your first date, and he experiences this more as a job interview. You've told me before you had a list of questions ready for him. Can you share a few of those examples so we can grasp what that might have looked like?

Jen Moore: Yeah. I asked him from a range of, you know, what would it look like disciplining the kids, what your belief was when it came to that. And how has the Air Force affected your life? Because he was active duty at the time. Did he think he could handle grief and the weight of all that when it comes to the kids? And how did his desire for the local church look like? You know, was it meeting his needs? What his theology was on the Lord? I mean, just really practical questions that I knew down the road would probably come up, but it was better to just get them out of the way now. [00:32:07] 

Laura Dugger: Well, and that sounds so prudent, as you're not only protecting your own heart, but also you have these five daughters that you're looking at the future and seeing if this would be a good fit. So I'm happy to hear that he passed. 

Jen Moore: Yes.

Laura Dugger: Yet you've shared before that you still wrestled with some doubts if God really did have remarriage for you. So how did God continue to show up in tangible ways?

Jen Moore: Yeah. It seems really silly, but God would provide these sand dollars and He lives right next to the beach. We would go on a lot of walks on the beach when we had these, like, we wanted to have a hard conversation, but do it outside in a calming environment. When we wrestled with, well, is this us wanting to get remarried or is this what the Lord has for our lives? [00:33:10] Or, you know, this seems like… would it be really hard to blend two families in? Is this really how we want to live our lives now? It would be confirmed when we wrestled, like, hey, God, you're going to have to really show us that you want us together. 

We had a community that wasn't ready to handle that transition period. So they kind of left us. We really just felt like, "Okay, everyone else is leaving. We need you. We need you to show up and tell us because everything else seems like it's a no. Like everything else is fighting against us." We would just walk on the beach and... these beaches are busy. You know, Destin, Florida is a very high-traffic beach. And we would find sand dollars, you know, even after the couple in front of us walked by, they would kick the sand in a way that would reveal a sand dollar and it would be our sand dollar.[00:34:18] I have them hung up now in my van and they're just a reminder of God's faithfulness.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Because I get the privilege of being your friend in real life and from previous conversations, you were even specifically asking together, you would say, "Lord, give us a sand dollar." And so every time that you found one, what was your reaction?

Jen Moore: Oh, I would just be jumping. I mean, I would just be like, "That's our sand dollar. That's our sand dollar. No, it's ours. It's our sign. And it's gifts from heaven." Yeah, it would just be so exciting.

Laura Dugger: Well, and such an Ebenezer to have these tangible reminders in your van that the Savior of the universe loves you so personally. I just appreciate you sharing all these stories. 

How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? [00:35:18] Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.

And now as we fast forward a bit, what is your family up to these days?

Jen Moore: Yeah, three years removed from grief. It looks a lot different than those early days. It seems like this year, especially, it's been easier to breathe. The physical pain of heartbreak is gone. It also seems that God's been gracious and has helped us exit the stage of flight or fight mode that the girls and I were in for several years. So these days, life seems a little less anxious and a lot more filled with joy. [00:36:26] 

We spend our days as much as possible together. We're always together as they are homeschooled. And we're just finding joy in the simplest things. Before Andy died, I was on the search for more. I wanted, you know, maybe if I had a career, if I wasn't a stay-at-home mom, maybe if I had more friends. God really showed me that more is my family that's directly in front of me. And just finding joy within them and in them and what's present in my life.

Laura Dugger: And even your new last name. God gave you the name Moore. 

Jen Moore: Oh my goodness, yes. I didn't even think of that. Wow.

Laura Dugger: Are there any other ways that God has revealed any specific redemption for all these trials that you've walked through?

Jen Moore: Yeah. God's just been sweet and tender with the girls and I. [00:37:27] I knew I would be okay, but I really didn't want my girls not to have a daddy. You know, I still have my daddy and my daddy is like my world. I mean, I love him. He's hilarious. He's just such a huge part of my life. I just could not imagine not having that for my kids, especially girls.

I've said Weather was only six weeks old when Andy died and, you know, she didn't know him. But now knows no difference when it comes to Jeff. God's really been healing just a little bit of my heart every time with these moments that arise.

I remember in early widowhood being like, You know what I'm going to miss? I'm going to miss when Andy walked through that door and hearing 'daddy' and all the girls just running towards the door and they're just hugging him. He's trying to put his bag down and his cap down and they're climbing all over him. "Daddy, look what I did at school." You know, it's like, I'm going to miss that — not hearing those words "daddy". [00:38:32] 

Now every time Jeff walks in the door, those three little girls and Shepard scream "daddy" every time he walks through the door. And it's like a bit of my heart heals every time I hear that. And God's just using that in the tiniest ways to redeem my story.

Laura Dugger: And that is my prayer even today with your willingness to share your story that God would continue to provide healing even in going back through and sharing all of this. Is there anything we haven't covered yet that you want to make sure we don't miss?

Jen Moore: I know you mentioned community earlier and I'm going to bring it up just one more time. My community was wonderful and they came together and rallied behind me. So my biggest stressor is I just cannot leave here without telling you the importance of attending and getting plugged in to the local church. [00:39:38]

You know, they are here to be the hands and feet of Jesus. They were just so, so helpful. I read once that hope requires three different things and it's a sense of control, a belief in something or someone like God and community.

That community held hope for me when I couldn't, you know, with God, of course. But if they're willing to put their lives on hold to take care of me, just being able to see God's grace be sufficient through all of that, it was just so hope-filled for me. A lot of people are discouraged when it comes to community because there's pain there, you know, with friends. Friends are hard, community. But community is work. It really is. But it's the best kind of work, I think.

Laura Dugger: Amen to that. As we take this message to heart and consider our own community, do you have any recommendations for any of us who are walking alongside a loved one who's currently experiencing the searing pain of loss? [00:40:49] 

Jen Moore: Yeah. I think for people that are walking alongside someone that has lost a loved one, even if they lost their job or they lost hope in life, my recommendation is to be spirit-led in your life. You know, really seek the Lord. Be grace-filled. I think we need to remember that grace is a gift from God and sometimes it's like God's protection for us. And really to be action-oriented towards those people. If you don't know what step to take, just take the first one.

But that would be my recommendation on how to walk alongside a loved one that has experienced loss. Just really be spirit-led, grace-filled, and action-oriented.

Laura Dugger: Wow, those are some incredible takeaways. [00:41:52] I appreciate you going deep and sharing so much today and also your ever-present sense of humor as well. And so as we begin to wind down our time together, you already know that our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Jen, what is your savvy sauce?

Jen Moore: I mean, I sound silly, but my only savvy sauce is the Bible and prayer. That's what helps me and as a mom to so many. Just taking the idea that your prayer and quiet time and your Bible reading time has to be quiet out of your mind really helps. God will meet you there even in the midst of loud and hard. And there's wonders that audio Bible can do.

Laura Dugger: And you're speaking from experience with the full house and a lot going on. [00:42:54] It is such an encouragement. You are such a deep well of wisdom. I'm so honored that you shared this story with each of us. From the moment that I met you, I've enjoyed time with you and learned so much. You are that iron sharpening iron when you constantly are pointing it back to God and His goodness and His grace. So thank you for that in my own life and thank you for sharing that with us today. So appreciate you being my guest. 

Jen Moore: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been an honor. 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:43:58] So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? [00:44:58] Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:46:02] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

245. Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow

**Transcription Below**

Matthew 18:3 (NIV) "And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

You have experienced some special miracle stories of God's provision in your life. Will you take us back to your childhood and share some of your early experiences with God?

What were significant ways God showed up in your teenage and young adult years?

How have you preserved these stories and passed them along to the next generation?

Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob’s mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. 

Rob’s life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people’s children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.

He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.

Continue Learning from Dr. Rob Rienow:

Visionary Family Website

Family Vision Podcast

Books and Resources by Dr. Rob Rienow

Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce with Dr. Rob Rienow:

87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow

Special Patreon Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow

230 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through our Website

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00]

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18]

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

Dr. Rob Rienow is my returning guest today. He and his wife, Amy, run a fantastic ministry, and they write books and resources. God has just gifted Rob with so much to offer. I'm going to link his incredible previous episodes on The Savvy Sauce in the show notes, and I know that you're going to really enjoy what he has to share today. 

He's going to recount miracles he's witnessed in his life, as he excitedly gives glory to God by willingly sharing his story. [00:01:23] 

Here's our chat. 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Rob.

Dr. Rob Rienow: Thank you, Laura. I've been looking forward to continuing our conversation.

Laura Dugger: Well, I have as well. You are no stranger to the podcast, but in case anyone has missed your previous episode, would you just introduce us to your family and current phase of life?

Dr. Rob Rienow: Sure. Well, Amy and I are coming up on 30 years of marriage this summer, so we're going to celebrate big. We've been blessed with seven kids, ages 26 to 10. We've got four boys and three girls. Our eldest two are married and off the payroll. Our third child's getting married this summer. And announcement, announcement, we've been blessed with two grandbabies, Lissy and Bond. Our daughter and her husband have a one-and-a-half-year-old girl, Avie. And then they had a Christmas baby, December 28th, Ernest, our first grandson. So we've got this big growing family, a lot of happiness and a lot of problems. [00:02:25] When you put this many messed up people together, you get a lot of mess. So we are very much dependent on God's grace and mercy every day.

Laura Dugger: That is relatable. And just something I always appreciate is that you are full of joy and also full of truth and very candid. You've experienced some special miracle stories of God's provision in your life. So will you take us back to your childhood and share some of your early experiences with God?

Dr. Rob Rienow: Sure. Well, the first miracle was in my mother's life. When I was born, neither one of my parents were Christians. They came both from a very broken, difficult background. My mother was my father's fourth wife. My father was my mother's second husband.

When I was three months old, my mom was incredibly depressed. In fact, didn't even want to live anymore. On one of these days of depression and despondency, she was actually thinking about putting me and my older brother in a car and driving us off a cliff together. [00:03:30] 

And on one of these days of depression, she called a friend and told her friend what she was thinking about, these dark thoughts. And her friend said, "Angie, don't move a muscle. I'm coming over to the house." Her friend came over. My mom was in her early 30s and she heard something from her friend she had never heard before. She heard who God was, how much God loved her, that God had proven his love for her by taking her sin and dying on the cross and rising again from the dead. And the grace of God worked in my mom's life and she repented of her sins. She put her faith in Christ, and as the Bible says, she was born again. 

So when I was three months old, this was the first miracle in my life, which was the conversion of my mom. She gave her heart and her life fully to Christ. My dad, though, was an atheist and a secularist and he thought my mom had become a crazy Jesus person and he doubled down on his secularism and on his atheism. And even though then my mom was trying to follow Christ, there was this great gap in their marriage. [00:04:37] 

Laura Dugger: Wow. So what was that like in childhood then, especially from the influence of your mom? How did you see her live out her faith that kind of transmitted to you and your siblings?

Dr. Rob Rienow: One of the things that my mom did from the very beginning was she kind of became an instant prayer warrior. Some of that was from the brokenness of her own background and just a tremendous neediness and desperation for God's power in her life. And that translated into, I'm going to say, a lot of childlike prayers. When I say childlike prayers, I mean that in a good way. You know, Jesus says, unless you have the faith of a child, you can't have a relationship with God. 

So in some ways, when it came to my mom's prayer life, in some ways, she didn't know any better. In other words, like if we were sick, she prayed for God to heal us. If we needed finances, she prayed for God to provide, just like a little child would.

I remember one miracle story. [00:05:37] I was 11, 12 years old, springtime, and I had been given the task to go out in the yard and move some wood. I grew up in Connecticut, in a rural area in Connecticut. So move wood, spring project. And I pick up a couple of logs, I'm walking across the yard, I trip and fall, and the logs in my hands fall down on some logs on the ground, and my right index finger, I'm looking at it right now as I'm talking to you, got smashed between the logs falling and the logs on the ground. And I stand up — I had my gloves on — and I then take my glove off and look at my finger. And I don't know if you've ever overcooked a hot dog in the microwave before, but it was split from the top to the bottom. All the innards are now the outards. And at this point, I freak out. Up till now, I've been like, Ow, ow, ow. But then I'm screaming. I run into the house. Obviously, mom wraps it all up, off we go to the doctor. And it is broken, and they stitch it from the top to the bottom. [00:06:41] 

This was, for me, as an 11-year-old, a crisis. This is a Tuesday. The crisis was that upcoming weekend, on Saturday, I had a baseball game to pitch in, and on Sunday, a piano recital to play in. Okay, Laura, I mean, Renaissance childhood, right? The sports, the music, the whole package. 

As an 11-year-old, those are big deals. So I'm going to bed that night. I can still picture... You know, I don't have tons of childhood memories. I think everybody's wired up a little bit differently. But the ones that I have are very vivid. One of the memories I have is my mom just kneeling beside my bed that night and I'm going to sleep, and my finger's all splinted and wrapped up and stitched, and she says, "Well, Robbie, I'm going to pray for God to heal your finger because I know how important these things are to you this weekend." So I say, "Okay, mom." 

I go to sleep, and my mom's praying there. I wake up the next morning, and my mom is still there. And she's kneeling beside my bed. [00:07:44] She had prayed all night for God to heal my finger. Now, I don't know, Laura, if this makes me an unspiritual person but I don't think in my life I've prayed all night. Maybe I've prayed late into the night or woken up in the middle of the night and prayed but I haven't prayed all night. 

I wake up in the morning, and my mom says, "I've prayed for God to heal your finger. Why don't we unwrap it and take a look?" And I say, "Okay." So we unwrap the thing. And I want you to imagine that you went to the doctor right now, Laura, and you said, "I want you to put stitches in my finger from the top to the bottom." Now, nothing would be wrong with you, right? But just put stitches in. He could do it. The doctor could stitch up a normal finger. 

We looked at my finger, and it had completely scarred over. I mean, I do have a nasty scar running down my finger now. But it had completely scarred over. And it was a little misshapen because it did get flattened. But it was healed. Like, it had completely scarred over. I could bend it. I didn't have any pain left. [00:08:51] And it was a real miracle. 

Now, we don't in our family think, well, if you just pray all night for your child, then God will heal them, or every single time you pray in faith for healing, you're going to get a miracle. We don't believe that. But we would say this. If you never pray and ask for a miracle, you're probably not going to see very many of them. Right? So, I mean, sometimes God answers yes or no, but He encourages us as little children to come to Him and pray with childlike faith. And that was my mom. And that was one of the stories that I look back on and say, okay, I really saw God show up in a powerful way.

Laura Dugger: I love that so much. I've sat under your teaching before through your Visionary Parenting course. We even went through recently, our church did a Sunday school class with you teaching through that course. My takeaway was something simple to remember that comes to mind so many times, especially when our children get hurt. [00:09:53] You had recommended, it's great to go to the physician, but go to the great physician first.

Dr. Rob Rienow: Amen. Again, we're very pro-doctor and we're very pro-stitches and splits and all of that. But like you just said, having that childlike faith that when we're sick, when we're hurting, when we're in need, we go to God and we ask for His help and we ask for His miraculous work in our lives.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

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Laura Dugger: You were a Christ follower then. Were there significant ways that you remember God showing up in your teenage or young adult years? [00:11:53]

Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, the big one was during my parents' divorce. My parents divorced when I was 15. They had a difficult marriage. It was not all one-sided. But my dad traveled for business Monday through Thursday most weeks, and turns out that he had mistresses in different cities where he was traveling and basically wanted to keep his mistresses and stay married to my mom. My mom was not cool with that plan. 

So, when I was 15, sophomore in high school, my parents got divorced. My dad's bad behavior and my parents' divorce was the big wound and trauma of my life. Part of what we had to do was to move, right? I had grown up in the same house my whole life, and my parents are getting divorced, and so it's, you know, sell everything, split the assets, all of that kind of stuff. [00:12:53] 

My mom had not worked outside the home. She had worked some part-time accounting jobs while I was growing up, but she didn't have a career of her own, so she didn't have, like, assets of her own to fall back on. So, basically, they were going to sell the house, and my mom was going to get half of the proceeds of the house, and she could use the half that she got from the house to go find another place for us to live.

So my mom, in her childlike faith, set out on a prayer journey for where God wanted us to live, and the Lord put it on her heart that she needed to pray for some very specific things in our next house. So, she kind of wrote this prayer list: God, here's what I'm praying for in our next house. 

She prayed for, I think, a certain radius, like three or four towns around where we lived. Part of that was that we were a part of a church, Valley Community Baptist Church in Avon, Connecticut, which was very important to us. We didn't want to be too far away from church. She prayed for a three-bedroom house, one bedroom for her, one bedroom for me, one bedroom for my brother. [00:13:56] 

There were a couple weird things on the list. She prayed she wanted a house that had a walk-out basement, so it would be built kind of on a little hill. Connecticut's very hilly. So there's a lot of those.

And then the weirdest one was she wanted a house that faced south. The reason for that is that if your house faces south, your front and backyard both get sun, so she could have flowers in the front and the back. She was a gardener, and being in the garden was her place.

We needed to have a house signed and committed by April 15th, because we had to be out of our house by June 15th. Back then, it took two solid months from sort of closing day to move in. Sometimes that happens a little faster now, but back then it was two months.

So time's going by, and we're not finding a house. Sometimes we would find a house that maybe would have five of the six things on the list, and Mom would be like, Oh, we'll take it, but then somebody else would swoop down with their bag full of money, and it'd be gone." [00:14:56] 

Finally, it's April 14th. This is the day before we need a house. I was actually on a mission trip in Washington, D.C. with my youth group, but a family from church called my mom, and they said, "We hear you're looking for a house, and we're going to be selling ours. Would you like to come take a look?"

So my mom comes over to this house about five o'clock in the afternoon, and it is lime green, Laura, lime green. But my mother had not specified color on her prayer list, so God cannot be held responsible for the color of the house. As you can imagine, she gets the tour, and everything she's been praying for is on this list. So she's getting more and more excited. My brother was there with her. 

Then they start talking price. The asking price that these folks had was $30,000 more than my mom had. She really wasn't in a position to be negotiating or saying, "Well, I can do this. I can do this." She had what she had. [00:15:57] 

So she's like, thank you very much. Really appreciate you showing me the house. She goes back home. Eight o'clock that night, phone rings again, and these folks want her to come back and look at the house again. So she's like, well, maybe they painted or something. I don't know. So she goes back, they look at the house. It was really weird. They gave her a tour again. She just had a tour three hours ago, but they give her a tour again. 

She explained the story to me because I was away, she said, "I was standing there in the kitchen with this man and woman, this husband and wife with your brother Mark, and the man's wife hands him a note, and he reads the note." And then he says to my mom, "The world would have us get every penny we can get out of this house, but we think God wants you to have the house for whatever you can afford." Now, Laura, this is a three-bedroom house in rural suburban Connecticut. Is this a wealthy family? [00:16:58] 

Laura Dugger: It doesn't sound that way.

Dr. Rob Rienow: It doesn't sound that way, right? They're not a wealthy family. And $30,000. So basically, they just gave us $30,000 is what they did. But this was like miracle part one. They were moving to Florida. And by giving us $30,000, they now no longer had the money they needed to fulfill the contract they had signed for their new house in Florida. So this was a big deal. This was a leap of faith for this family to basically be generous with us.

Three days later, their real estate agent from Florida calls them and says, "I don't know what happened, but the price of your house just went down $50,000." Laura, it was a miracle. And for me at 15 years old, it was God saying, "Rob, I haven't forgotten about you. I haven't abandoned you."[00:17:56] 

Because when your parents are going through something like this, you have this fork in the road where you really only have two paths. One of the paths is to just hate God and harden your heart against Him, that if you're allowing this to happen, I want nothing to do with you. Maybe you're not even there. The other path is to basically lash yourself to Christ and to say, God, I have no idea why you're allowing this. I hate this. I have every kind of emotion in the world, but I'm just going to lash myself to you and you're going to have to get me through this storm. 

But that miracle of this house that God provided for my mom was this moment for me that for so many years after that and continually, when now Amy and I get to places that seem dark or you really are asking the question, where is God? Has God forgotten about us right now? The Bible tells us over and over again to remember, remember, remember. Go back to the times both in Scripture and in your life where God has shown His might and power to you and you cling to those moments, those truths while you're in the darkness right now. [00:19:11] 

Laura Dugger: That is so powerful. And so many thoughts swirling through my head after that, just thinking God delights in giving us rewards. Even though we know He's our ultimate treasure, He's still not opposed to giving us rewards here on earth.

The way that that couple listened to the Holy Spirit and sacrificed, really, their finances and were so generous and then what came, I love even the difference in money that your mom got a $30,000 discount that made it possible and theirs was even more. 50.

Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah. And their family, and I've lost touch with them, but I'm sure they tell that story as a miracle provision for them.

Laura Dugger: For all of it. It just makes me think of Malachi 3:10, where it says, "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse that there may be food in my house. Test me in this, says the Lord Almighty, and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it." [00:20:20] So thank you for bringing that scripture to life in a real way that God met your family. 

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I'm loving these stories. Do you have anything else that comes to mind? Because I'm assuming you have quite a few to share. [00:21:22] 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah. As I shared, parents got divorced, dad is unfaithful. It took God a lot of years to bring me to a place of forgiveness for what my dad had done. My youth pastor walked me through an intentional forgiveness plan, not just wishful thinking or time heals all wounds, but really making a choice in my heart to forgive my dad for what he had done. And then I began a daily prayer, which was very simple. It was, God, heal my heart of the anger, bitterness, and hatred that I have for my father.

In other words, I had made the choice with my will to forgive him. But Jesus says to forgive your brother from your heart. And I didn't have any power over my heart. You know, anger, bitterness, hatred, and resentment are not like little light switches that you just go down and you turn those off or give them to Jesus one day and they're gone. So God has to do a real heart miracle for you. [00:22:21] 

So I spent six years doing that daily prayer, "God, heal my heart. I don't want to have any hatred, anger, bitterness, or resentment toward my father." And then one morning, junior year of college, I had a crazy early class at like 11 a.m., and I was getting ready to bolt out the door, I'm in my bathroom, and I was just thinking about my dad, and I don't even know why, but thinking about my dad, and I was flooded with a very different emotion.

Normally, if dad was on my mind, it would be a coldness or a bitterness or an anger. But flooded with compassion. And all sorts of things about my father's life came to mind. God brought them to mind. My dad was born in 1918, the pandemic of 1918, and his mother died in childbirth with him. We don't know the whole story or the whole history, but his father already had two sons, and his father wouldn't take him or couldn't take him. We don't know exactly what happened. [00:23:30] 

So his mom dies, and his dad wouldn't take him. He also was a preemie baby. He was born at seven and a half months. Back then, that was a major, major life-threatening situation. So he spent the first year of his life in the hospital at the University of Iowa. And thank God for those nurses who took care of him. But, boy, you've got four daughters, Laura. I mean, you know that first year of life, so important for that little baby's heart and spirit. 

Babies don't need nurses. Thank you, nurses. We love you. But they need a mom, right? They need a dad. They need grandma. They need grandpa. They need that family at home to be nursing that little spirit. 

So my dad didn't have any of that. He then got adopted. He got adopted by his aunt and his uncle, who were brother and sister. So aunt and uncle, brother and sister, not incestuous or weird. They lived together, this single man, single woman, brother, sister. [00:24:33] 

So he was adopted, never saw a marriage, never saw a family. His adopted father, Robert Rienow, who I'm named after, was the dean at the University of Iowa. He was an educator, and he was an atheist, and he was a secularist, and taught my father many things.

I remember growing up, my dad worked from home a lot in addition to his travel. So he had a home office, and he had his big man desk in his office, and I had the little man desk in his office. And I'd spend a lot of time with him there. And I remember a number of times growing up, he would stop working, and he'd turn to me, and he'd say, "Bobby, let me tell you the number one lesson that the dean taught me." So he referred to his adopted father as the dean, which is creepy. "Bobby, let me tell you the number one lesson that the dean taught me." I'm eight, nine years old. You look at your dad, and this is obviously going to be important, so I'm going to listen up. He says, "Number one lesson that the dean taught me was Jesus was just a man." Most important thing he taught me: Jesus was just a man. [00:25:36] 

Now, Laura, your mom dies, your dad doesn't want you, you spend that first year in the hospital, you get adopted into this home. Where do you go to get wounds like that healed?

Laura Dugger: If you can't turn to God, I don't know what you do.

Dr. Rob Rienow: Correct, exactly. You're either turning to Jesus or not. Like, it's a one-stop shop. Jesus is the only one who's going to be able to heal wounds like that. And so his adopted father tells him the only person in the universe who can't help you is Jesus. My dad spends his whole life looking for women to love him. Married four times, lots of other relationships, dies with a picture of his mother on his dresser. How do you feel about him? Isn't that just sad, right? 

In that scripture, Matthew 9:36, Jesus looks out at the crowd of lost souls. It says He had compassion on them because they were harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. [00:26:36] This was a real miracle in my life of God shifting... It doesn't mean my dad's not responsible for the things he did. It doesn't mean there's not boundaries and consequences for all that bad behavior. But it really shifted my heart toward him and enabled me to enter into a new chapter of ministering to him and trying to care for him and help point him toward Christ.

Laura Dugger: Wow. I had never heard all of that backstory before, Rob. But I also believe that's not where the story ends. So would you continue?

Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah. We're going to fast forward. So now it's summer of 2008. My dad's 90 years old and we get a call... This was June. We get a call that he's been diagnosed with advanced cancer. I was speaking at a conference in Arizona when the call came. Amy was home with the kids. So Amy's home and she says, "We're going to sit down and write some cards to Papa Bill." [00:27:39] Our oldest child was 11 or 12. So crayons and markers and all this. 

A little backstory. My dad had forbidden our children from sending him any cards with Jesus stuff in there. Like he was very hard-hearted toward God. I don't want Bible stuff. "I don't want Jesus stuff in my birthday cards, etc." Well, Amy sat down with the kids and she's like, "Well, he can pound sand. We're going to send a lot of Jesus stuff in these cards." 

So my daughter, Lissy... I actually have scans of all of these. My daughter, Lissy's card, again, with the crayons and the markers, "Dear Papa Bill, we're praying for you. John 3:16, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him might not perish but have everlasting life." 

My eldest son, this is my favorite card, he said, "Dear Papa Bill, we're praying for you. Here is a verse for you. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I hope you enjoy this verse. Love, R.W." [00:28:37]  

Laura Dugger: That's amazing. 

Dr. Rob Rienow: It's awesome. I wasn't home for any of this, right? I'm away speaking. And I'm like, If I had been home, I probably would have massaged that card a little bit, the messaging there, just from the standpoint of, like, card to dying grandpa, right? 

But the Lord did teach me something very important and clarified something for me about the gospel. We talk about the gospel as good news, but it actually starts with bad news, that we're separated from God because of our sin, and no amount of being good can clean us up and welcome us into God's presence. We can't cover up our sin with our good deeds. In fact, there's great judgment awaiting us because of our sin. That's really, really bad news. But then we have good news, that God proves his love for us in this, that while we're still sinners, Christ died for us. [00:29:30] So these cards that went off to my dad were filled with bad news and good news, which is the gospel. 

So then you go forward to August 10th, 2008. My father is in the hospital, and my mother and her husband go to visit him. Five years after my parents divorced, my mother got remarried to a godly man named Jack. My parents were cordial post-divorce, so I guess that's a good thing. Better to be cordial post-divorce than not. 

So my mom went to visit him in the hospital with her husband. So your fourth wife and her husband come to visit you. My dad says to my mother and Jack, "Is there anything I can do for you?" Which is a weird question. He wasn't rich, and he's dying. My stepfather, Jack, says, "Yes, Bill, there is. Trust Christ. We want to be in heaven with you." My dad says, "I have been thinking a lot about that lately." [00:30:32] And he points over to his hospital room window where there are four cards, crayon and marker, taped there and he says, "Bring me the card. I want to read those again." And they bring the cards over, and they read, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." And my mom shares the gospel with my dad for the 1,552nd time and says, "Bill, are you ready to repent and trust Christ?" He says, "I am." And so he prays to put his faith in Jesus with his fourth wife and her husband. 

My mom gets home that night. It was a Sunday night. My mom gets home from the hospital, calls out to us here in Illinois, tells us what happened. We have the party to end all parties. We've been praying for decades for my father's conversion. My mom goes back the next day to make sure that it wasn't like a drug-induced stupor. In other words, he's dying, he's got cancer, maybe he's just crazy. [00:31:34] So she goes back the next day, "Bill, do you remember praying with us yesterday?" "Oh, yes, absolutely." "Well, can we read the Bible with you?" "I would love that. Yes."

Now, the backstory there is many times in my parents' marriage, my mom had said, "Oh, I wonder if I could read the Bible here at dinnertime or something," and my dad would just become enraged and would have nothing to do with it. He was a new creation in Christ. He was born again. The old had gone, the new had come. He had a brand new heart and a renewed mind. 

I have never seen a greater miracle. We're talking about miracles today. I've never seen a greater miracle, hands down, than the conversion of my 90-year-old dad. 

We get in the car, we drive out to Connecticut, I spend three unbelievable days with this new man. He asks forgiveness for the affairs. Now, I had forgiven him years ago, but our relationship could not be fully reconciled until he asked for that forgiveness and received that forgiveness. [00:32:33] 

He passed away, then, September 2nd, just a few weeks after that. I can't wait for heaven. I want to be home with my Lord and Savior Jesus, but I only got three days with my new dad. And we're going to have forever together without any sin in our lives. And I can't wait for that.

Laura Dugger: That brings a lot of tears. Yes, we cannot wait to be with Jesus in glory forever and all of the loved ones who have gone before us. I think you give so much hope. That's why the Bible says to share our stories, because it's His story of work in our lives. And it is so encouraging, even if we're praying for someone right now, and the enemy wants to tell us that they're too far gone or it's never going to happen. It can, and in his case, it did.

Dr. Rob Rienow: And you asked the question, and one of my questions for Jesus is, why was it the 1,552nd time that my dad heard the gospel that he repented? [00:33:35] Why not the second time? Why not the third time? You simply don't know when the Holy Spirit is going to soften someone's heart. Let me tell you one of my favorite bedside moments with my dad. He said to me, "Bobby, I've got a new life verse." Now, you're like, wait, time out. I didn't think he was a Christian. He wasn't, but he did have a life verse, it just wasn't from the Bible. Like verse, prose, poetry. It was a poem. And the poem was Henley's Invictus. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it or not, but you probably know the most famous line in that poem.

So again, back to my growing up years with my dad at his big man desk in his office, he had his life verse on a plaque on his desk, a little plaque that sat in front of him. And the verse was this, "It matters not how strait the gate, nor how charged with punishments the scroll. I am the master of my fate and the captain of my soul." [00:34:36] 

Translation, "If there is a God and if there is a judgment day, I'm in charge, like I'm the master of my eternity." So that was my dad's life verse. And so he says, "Bobby, I got a new one." I said, "That's good, dad. We definitely need a new one." And so he says, "My new life verse is this: There by the grace of God go I." Now, that's not in the Bible either. That's a 17th-century German guy. But I didn't think it was time for a Bible lesson. I thought it was a fantastic improvement. I'm sure Jesus will sort that out with him on the other side. But I'm just so grateful to the Lord. 

I'm glad you asked some of these questions today. I know one of the things that God was doing in allowing a lot of seasons and years of pain and trauma, every chance I get to tell my dad's miracle conversion story, I do it because I think it just makes God look so good. [00:35:38] I think it highlights His love and His mercy and His grace and His power. 

An answer to the question, why was the 1552nd time? It's because God is... He's getting a lot of glory for what He did as that story gets told over and over again.

Laura Dugger: Wow. I love your willingness to share this story. Even in this series, one of my side prayers for every guest is that it's also cathartic to go back and to relive some of this and remember, because the Bible oftentimes asks us to remember the goodness that God has displayed in our lives. And He didn't just do that in Bible times. He's still doing that with each of us today. So I think it also reminds us to pay attention.

Dr. Rob Rienow: Yes.

Laura Dugger: And I've wondered with all of these stories, how have you preserved them and pass them along to the next generation? [00:36:37] 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, it's a great question. We're actually instructed to do that. In Psalm 78, it instructs parents and grandparents to tell your kids the great and glorious deeds of the Lord and the wonders He has done. That is a combination of the great and glorious deeds that He has done in Scripture, but also the miracles he's done in your life, these special moments. 

These sorts of miracles we're talking about today are not daily, weekly things. These are powerful moments in our life, unique, special moments where God shows up. So I just would ask you, do your kids know your conversion story? Do your kids know these special moments that you look back on where you know God showed up and proved himself to you? 

Now, maybe you say, well, I don't have a conversion story. I grew up with Christian parents and they had Christian parents and I came to Christ when I was a little kid. You know, I have a terrible testimony. That's just boring. Well, I want all of my kids and grandkids to have that terrible testimony. [00:37:40] 

Laura Dugger: Amen. 

Dr. Rob Rienow: I just want them... That's a phenomenal testimony. It's tremendous. Tell your kids what a miracle that is, that God has worked generationally in your family. Take whatever opportunities you have to tell them those stories, to write them down if you can. 

One of the things that Amy and I did a few years ago, and we actually have to do an update now, but we've had our kids interview... like set up the video camera and interview the grandparents just about their life and about their stories. Amy's parents are believers. She grew up the same as I did, though. Christian mom, non-Christian dad. Her dad came to Christ after we were married and has had an incredible testimony. And then my father's home with the Lord, but my stepfather Jack is a believer. 

So sitting down with grandparents, turning the video camera on, having the kids interview them, get their stories, and zeroing in on that question. How have you seen God work powerfully in your life? What stories do you want us to remember? [00:38:40] 

Laura Dugger: I think that's a great encouragement for each of us, something that we can apply. Okay, Rob, so you said you're coming up on 30 years of marriage and you and Amy have seven children. So I'm assuming God has done a lot in marriage and parenthood. So what stories come to mind there?

Dr. Rob Rienow: One of the stories would be a marriage miracle for us. We're coming up on 30, but when we got married, even though she was a Christian and I was a Christian, I'll speak for myself. I was really clueless about what Christian marriage was all about or even what the purpose of marriage was all about.

The Bible says in Genesis 2:26, "For the purpose of marriage, a man will leave father and mother, cleave to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." Well, we did the first two. We left father and mother, and we cleaved to one another, and we became one flesh physically, but spiritually, not really. [00:39:45] 

What I mean by that is I really didn't have any vision to spiritually care for her or spiritually connect with her. One of the ways that evidenced itself was we hardly ever prayed together as husband and wife. In fact, for 13 years of our marriage, we hardly ever prayed together. We prayed at meals. We prayed in crisis. And I've shared this story before. At the 10-year mark, we started praying as a family. I was really neglecting the kids spiritually for a lot of years, too. 

But for 13 years, we were really on separate tracks spiritually. I was actually on a men's retreat, and it wasn't a retreat about marriage, it was just about our relationship with the Lord, and it was during a prayer and worship time, and God had to do a very miraculous work in my heart. [00:40:40] 

He brought me to a place of repentance and conviction and even brokenness and convicted me that in 13 years, I had never woken up in the morning like with this front-burner thought that Amy's spiritual life that day was something I needed to be concerned about. In other words, that God had called me to love her and serve her and lead her. And that I needed a plan to just encourage her and bless her and support her spiritually. 

The Lord, like, turned my heart to Amy and turned my heart to my ministry to her. See, even that word, Laura, if you had come up to me and said, well, how's ministry going? Well, I would have told you about church. Now, if you say, Rob, how's ministry going? I'm going to say, well, hey, let me tell you how I'm trying to connect with Amy and partner with her and encourage her. Let me tell you about the kids. Because that ministry began with her heart and her soul. 

The first thing then that happened, and again, this was almost 17 years ago, we started praying together before we went to bed each night. [00:41:42] It's just a short prayer. I will pray, God, thank you for this and this and this today. And then, Laura, what I'll try to do is just think about a burden that Amy has and try to shoulder a little bit of that burden in prayer for her. So, "Lord, Amy is just... I know she's exhausted today. So, I want to pray she'll fall asleep quickly, not wake up one time, and wake up in the morning just feeling great. Give her her full strength back." Or, God, I know that she's got this very difficult decision tomorrow. She needs wisdom. Lord, your word says that when we need wisdom, we should ask for it, and you give without partiality. So, please give her the wisdom that she needs." It's just any burden that I sense that she is under, I want to shoulder a little bit of it in prayer. 

We now have been praying every night for almost 17 years. Now, I am not tooting my own horn here. We have 13 years of no prayer, 17 years with prayer. So, I'm only plus four, okay, in our almost 30 years together. So, we're still digging out of a lot of prayerless years. But I cannot overstate, and I'll just mention one other thing real quickly here, that the area of prayer that we've probably gotten the best in and where we've seen the most miracles is prayer in the midst of conflict. [00:42:56] 

So, Amy and I are having a fight about Lord knows what. And one of us says, I think we should pray. It's gritted teeth, and it's just horrible. It's the last thing you want to do because our walls are up, and we're angry with each other. One person says, I think we should pray and you say, fine, and you walk over, and I hold her hand. It's like a dead corpse, right? She's just angry, and I'm angry. And one of us says, "Lord, help us." Three words: Lord, help us. 

So many times we've had the miracle, and it is a miracle, of the Holy Spirit rushing in, softening my heart to her, softening her heart to me. For the last 30 minutes, I've been like, you, you, you, and now all of a sudden, the Holy Spirit shows me, oh, me, me, me. And the same for her. And now there's an exit ramp off this conflict that we have been on. 

But we have experienced these miraculous answers to prayer in our marriage as the Lord brought us out of that very... It was a dangerous time. We didn't know it at the time, but it was a dangerous time of those 13 prayerless years. [00:44:02] 

Laura Dugger: I think what's so evident is your daily walk with the Lord in these practical ways that He's met you. And I think that's very replicable for shouldering some of the burden for our spouse or our children through prayer. But then also these big ways that God has shown up, and all of them are important. So thank you for sharing that. 

Rob, this time has been so rich, but there's so much more that you have to teach us. So after this conversation, where can we go to learn more from you?

Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, Laura, I've loved it. I appreciate your ministry so much. People can connect with me and Amy through our weekly podcast, Family Vision. You can find Family Vision on any podcast service. That's just where Amy and I are sharing each week the things that God is teaching us and the areas that we're growing. You can find our ministry on any social media channel by searching Visionary Family Ministries or coming to our website, VisionaryFam.com. [00:45:05] 

And a couple of our books that connect with our conversation today, one is called Healing Family Relationships. It is just a walk through some biblical principles to seek peace and reconciliation in your home. I share my dad's story in detail in that book, and I think you'll love it. 

Another one that comes to mind is a book called Never Too Late. If you have an adult child in your life who's far from God and maybe you feel like you've been praying for them forever to come to Christ, or even just to be restored in their relationship with you, that resource, Never Too Late, would be the way to go.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add links for all of those resources in the show notes for today's episode. Rob, you're familiar because this is not the first time you've been on the podcast, but we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, from our conversation today, The Savvy Sauce would be asking God to give you a childlike faith. [00:46:10] Sometimes we think about having a faith in God or having a mature faith, or you think about having a long-time faith or a deep faith. A mature, deep, long-time faith is childlike. And it is simply coming to God like a child in a spirit of neediness, putting your full faith and trust in Him, giving Him your whole heart in every area of your life.

Laura Dugger: Well said. Rob, thank you for your always helpful teaching. I continue to learn from your humor and your stories, and most importantly, from the overflow of your rich relationship with the Lord. So thank you for being my returning guest today.

Dr. Rob Rienow: Thanks, Laura. I appreciate our friendship. I know that your podcast is making a huge difference in people's lives, so thanks for having me on.

Laura Dugger: Aw, thanks for that. [00:47:08] 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:48:07] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. [00:49:09] We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:50:11] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.