What if instead of racing to solve problems, you paused to map the entire system first? In this episode, Hannah sits down with Sheryl Cababa—author of Closing the Loop: Systems Thinking for Designers and founder of Optimistic Design—to talk about what it really means to design for complexity. From AI adoption to organizational policy changes, Sheryl brings a systems lens to the decisions leaders make (often too hastily) in fast-moving environments.

They explore how design leaders can avoid short-sighted thinking, better understand stakeholder dynamics, and use accessible tools to facilitate organizational change that actually sticks. Whether you're planning your back-to-office strategy or rethinking your product's impact, this conversation will leave you re-evaluating how your decisions ripple through the system.

Resources from this episode:

• Subscribe to The Product Manager newsletter
• Connect with Sheryl on LinkedIn
• Sheryl’s book — Closing the Loop: Systems Thinking for Designers
• Check out Optimistic Design