The ThoughtStretchers Podcast

Drew Perkins hosts a live conversation at the Festival of Education with Lianne Cottrell of the Jack Miller Center, Ronnie London of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) and Rachel Humphries of the Bill of Rights Institute on restoring Enlightenment civics. The panel asks how much the American founding rests on Enlightenment liberalism, why free speech is the engine of pluralism and social change, how students' and teachers' First Amendment rights differ between K-12 and higher education, and what society might look like if civic education were treated as the formation of humble, reasoning citizens.

Links & Resources

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected].

Intro/outro voice credit: David O'Hara, Professor of Philosophy, Classics & Environmental Studies, Augustana University.

Key takeaways

• The founding rests on Enlightenment ideals, but which Enlightenment? Lianne notes that the Scottish and French Enlightenments color how we read life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Rachel argues most classrooms give the philosophy only a surface-level "this is what Locke said" gloss.
• Persuasion or force: Ronnie argues there are only two ways to get people to do what you want, convince them or coerce them. Free speech keeps us on the side of persuasion, lets us see the world as it is, and has powered every major social movement.
• Censorship is a position of weakness: Silencing someone signals you can't answer them. Students should learn early to hear others out and test their own thinking against them, as in Mill's On Liberty.
• K-12 and higher ed are different legal worlds: College students and faculty have broad First Amendment protection. K-12 students keep their rights at the schoolhouse gate within the limits of Tinker, while K-12 teachers' classroom speech is largely governed by curriculum and school authorities.
• Civic education is formation: The panel calls for teaching reasoning over feeling, building trust before hard conversations, supporting teachers to lead Socratic discussion, and aiming for citizens who are humble, connected and quick to find their own errors.

Episode highlights and timecodes

• 00:00 – Welcome & Introductions: Lianne, Ronnie and Rachel introduce themselves and their organizations.
• 01:54 – Enlightenment Liberalism and the Founding: Drew asks how far our founding ideals rest on Enlightenment liberalism, and the panel weighs Scottish vs. French Enlightenments and the "history and tradition" lens.
• 06:50 – Traditional vs. Inquiry: Each panelist reflects on their own K-12 experience of civics and history.
• 12:51 – From Sputnik to A Nation at Risk: How accountability, fear and the STEM push changed the purpose of education.
• 19:34 – Why Free Speech Matters: Persuasion vs. force, "rhetoric is lawful magic," and why censorship is a position of weakness.
• 27:37 – K-12 vs. Higher Ed: Supporting teachers, the 1619 Project question, and how First Amendment rights differ for students and teachers.
• 33:35 – Imagining the Ideal: Humility, thick bonds and a literal American exceptionalism.
• 38:20 – Book Recommendations: From On Liberty to the Nicomachean Ethics.
• 42:34 – Closing: Jonathan Rauch's fallibilist and empirical rules.

Drew Perkins hosts a live panel at the Festival of Education with Elise Stephenson, Patrice Bain and Valentina Devid on the so-called pedagogy wars between explicit instruction and inquiry. Recorded in front of an audience, the conversation asks what role knowledge plays in critical thinking, where each panelist sits on the instructional continuum, and how formative assessment and making thinking visible help teachers meet students where they are. The panel's answer to "either-or?" is a firm "yes-and."

Links & Resources

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected].

Intro/outro voice credit: David O'Hara, Professor of Philosophy, Classics & Environmental Studies, Augustana University.

Key takeaways

• It's yes-and, not either-or: All three panelists place themselves on a continuum between direct instruction and inquiry. They move along it depending on what students already know and what the learning goal demands.
• Knowledge is a starting point, not the finish line: Knowledge makes critical thinking possible and better, but the aim is to "play the game," not just learn the vocabulary of it. Students also arrive with more knowledge and thinking than test scores suggest.
• Thinking can be grown: Research from Project Zero shows students in classrooms that name and value thinking moves get better at using thinking strategies at every age. Modeling, think-alouds and self-regulation are key.
• Formative action and visible thinking are two names for the same idea: Constantly and purposefully checking what students understand challenges teachers' assumptions. It replaces rigid "novice or expert" labels with a picture of each learner.
• Watch for lethal mutations on every side: Retrieval practice done as a box to tick, and thinking routines done as one-off activities, both miss the point. Teachers need tools, skills and mindsets, plus a healthy skepticism of anyone selling "the one right way."

Episode highlights and timecodes

• 00:00 – Welcome & Introductions: Drew introduces the panel and frames the pedagogy wars as a "yes-and" rather than an "either-or."
• 05:25 – Knowledge & Critical Thinking: Can students think critically with little domain knowledge? Valentina, Elise and Patrice push back on Drew's pushback.
• 10:08 – Can Thinking Be Trained?: Elise shares Ron Ritchhart's research on students' concept maps of thinking, and Patrice describes teaching students how to learn.
• 15:33 – The Pedagogy Spectrum: From drill-and-kill to free school, each panelist places their own practice on the continuum.
• 21:20 – Formative Action & Visible Thinking: The expertise reversal effect, checking for agreement vs. checking for understanding, and why teachers need tools, skills and mindsets.
• 28:54 – Lethal Mutations: How the science of learning, and inquiry approaches, can be reduced to box-ticking.
• 34:12 – Beyond the Tribalism: Curiosity, humility and healthy skepticism as the way forward.

Frequently asked questions What are the "pedagogy wars"?

The polarized debate between explicit or direct instruction and inquiry-based approaches. The panel rejects the either-or framing and argues that good teaching moves along a continuum between them.

Can students think critically without knowledge?

The panel agrees that knowledge strongly supports critical thinking. Valentina argues it's a prerequisite. Elise cautions that students always bring knowledge and ways of thinking, even when test scores don't show it. Drew argues some critical thinking is possible with little domain knowledge.

Can critical thinking be taught?

Project Zero research described by Elise suggests thinking strategies can be learned and improved. Students in classrooms that name and value thinking moves grow in their ability to name and apply them. Valentina adds that teaching self-regulation, through modeling and think-alouds, has a large impact.

Where do the panelists sit on the instruction-to-inquiry spectrum?

All three say they are "on the continuum." Patrice uses heavy direct instruction to build a foundation and scaffolds toward deep learning. Valentina adapts to where students are, aiming for independence. Elise braids required skills with students' own generative questions.

What is the expertise reversal effect?

A finding from cognitive load theory: techniques that help novices can hinder experts, and vice versa. The panel cautions against labeling whole students as novices or experts. Students can be ahead and behind at the same time, which is why ongoing formative assessment matters.

What's the difference between checking for agreement and checking for understanding?

Tools like cold calling and mini whiteboards can confirm a correct answer, which Drew calls agreement. Understanding requires seeing how students make sense of ideas. Valentina's formative action model adds dialogue and sense-making after the check.

What is a "lethal mutation"?

A practice that loses its purpose as it spreads. Examples include retrieval practice done just to tick a box, or a See-Think-Wonder routine used as a one-off activity. Teachers who understand the "why" behind a practice can adapt it well.

How do we move beyond the tribalism?

Ask "How do my students learn?" (Patrice). Model curiosity, open-mindedness and willingness to be wrong (Valentina). Bring healthy skepticism to anyone claiming one best way (Elise). Drew calls this an inquiry mindset.

Drew Perkins talks with Sean Morrisey to discuss the pedagogical philosophy and curriculum design behind the Word Mapping Project. Discover how this innovative approach interweaves spelling, vocabulary, morphology, and fluency into a single manageable daily lesson for upper elementary and middle school students.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected].

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.

*intro/outro voice credit: David O'Hara, Professor of Philosophy, Classics & Environmental Studies; Director of Environmental Studies & Sustainability at Augustana University

Key Takeaways:

• Comprehensive Literacy Integration: The Word Mapping Project interweaves spelling, vocabulary, morphology, and fluency into a single, manageable daily lesson tailored for upper elementary and middle school students.
• Efficient Vocabulary Acquisition: Rather than relying on bloated commercial reading programs or basic vocabulary lists, students learn 750 sophisticated words per year through explicit instruction and anchored word pairs.
• Cognitive Load Reduction: Morphology instruction utilizes word sums and matrices, embedding spelling within morphology and spelling ladders to significantly reduce cognitive load, especially benefiting dyslexic students.
• Balanced Curriculum Structure: The approach pairs structured word study and brief daily inquiry periods with rich novel studies (such as Number the Stars alongside related historical non-fiction).
• Responsive Support: Creator Sean Morrisey emphasizes strong educator support, offering teacher email response times within 24 hours while noting that communication occasionally filters into spam folders.

Episode Highlights & Timecodes:

• 00:00 - Introduction & Pedagogical Philosophy: Sean Morrisey shares his 30 years of education experience as a school psychologist and classroom teacher, introducing the foundational philosophy behind the Word Mapping Project.
• 12:15 - Curriculum Design & Vocabulary Acquisition: A breakdown of how upper elementary and middle school students tackle 750 words a year by targeting sound, spelling, and meaning simultaneously via the lexical quality hypothesis.
• 28:40 - Supporting Dyslexic Students through Morphology: How word sums, matrices, and spelling ladders lower cognitive barriers and leverage language strengths for struggling readers.
• 42:10 - Novel Studies vs. Commercial Programs: Exploring why prioritizing structured word study and authentic texts like Number the Stars creates a more powerful literacy framework than traditional reading programs.
• 52:00 - Implementation & Next Steps: Practical advice for interventionists, self-contained elementary classrooms, oral language development, and connecting with the curriculum.

Drew Perkins sits down with Heather Peske, President of the National Council on Teacher Quality (NCTQ) to examine critical strategies for teacher compensation, fiscal constraints, and strategic school funding.

As school districts nationwide confront a looming fiscal crisis driven by declining student enrollment, rising operational costs, and the September 2025 expiration of federal ESSER funds, baseline teacher compensation has emerged as a crucial retention lever, accounting for approximately 80% of district budgets. Heather Peske shares research-backed policy solutions, highlighting how targeted salary supplements, performance-based pay models, and credential reforms can help districts recruit and retain effective educators in hard-to-staff subjects and high-need schools.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected].

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.

*intro/outro voice credit: David O'Hara, Professor of Philosophy, Classics & Environmental Studies; Director of Environmental Studies & Sustainability at Augustana University

Key Takeaways:

• Fiscal Pressures & Staffing Costs: Teacher compensation accounts for roughly 80% of district operating budgets, making pay structure a central lever in managing enrollment declines and post-ESSER budget deficits.
• Targeted Incentives Work: Only 13 states offer differentiated pay for hard-to-staff schools. Minimum supplements of $5,000 (or 7.5%) are essential for attracting top talent, as demonstrated by model policies in Alabama, Hawaii, Texas, and Utah.
• Rewarding Instructional Effectiveness: Valid, transparent evaluation systems linking student outcomes and classroom observations—such as Washington D.C.'s DC Impact program—successfully tie compensation to performance.
• Strategic Credential Reform: Reallocating automatic master's degree pay increases toward specialized interventionists and team-teaching roles maximizes budget impact without compromising instructional quality.
• Proactive Right-Sizing: In lieu of blunt seniority-based layoffs, district leaders must use data-driven evaluations to align workforce size with long-term revenue realities.
• NCTQ Policy Tools: Educational leaders can leverage NCTQ's District Policy Pathfinder database and the Compass AI Chatbot to navigate complex policy dilemmas.

Episode Highlights & Timecodes:

• 00:00 - Introduction & Overview: Strategic Teacher Compensation with Heather Peske
• 08:15 - Fiscal Crisis & Operational Pressures: Managing 80% Budget Allocation
• 17:30 - Differentiated Pay & Incentives for Hard-to-Staff Schools and Subjects
• 28:45 - Performance Pay & Effectiveness: The DC Impact Evaluation Model
• 39:10 - Credential Reform & Eliminating Unproductive Master's Degree Premiums
• 48:20 - Post-ESSER Funding Expiration, Budget Shortfalls, and Strategic Workforce Right-Sizing
• 55:30 - NCTQ Resources: District Policy Pathfinder & Compass AI Policy Chatbot

Drew Perkins is joined by Neal McCluskey to discuss his new book, Fighting for the Freedom to Learn. We move beyond the common narrative that school choice is a modern, free-market invention of the 1950s, instead tracing the historical roots of educational pluralism back to the colonial era.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected].

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.

*intro/outro voice credit: David O'Hara, Professor of Philosophy, Classics & Environmental Studies; Director of Environmental Studies & Sustainability at Augustana University

Key Takeaways:

School Choice Has Deep Roots: The desire for educational pluralism predates 20th-century market-based theories; it is a fundamental human response to the imposition of centralized values that dates back to the colonial period.

The "Common School" Conflict: The centralized, government-controlled education system introduced by reformers like Horace Mann historically marginalized minority and religious groups, leading to immediate pushback that still echoes in today's disputes over curriculum and religious content.

Pluralism as a Solution: Educational choice is not just an economic policy; it is a social one. It allows diverse communities to embrace their own values—whether religious, philosophical, or pedagogical—without needing to impose those values on everyone else.

Accountability vs. Content: A robust pluralistic system can prioritize parental choice while still maintaining accountability, ensuring students learn essential skills (reading, writing, math) without forcing a uniform, state-mandated worldview.

Why Culture Wars Persist: Universal school choice programs are currently expanding across the U.S. not just as a reaction to COVID-19, but as a legislative strategy to resolve long-standing disputes over which values and histories are taught in public classrooms.

Episode Highlights & Timecodes:

• [00:08:49] – Intro: Neal McCluskey on Fighting for the Freedom to Learn.
• [00:13:20] – Challenging the "1950s" narrative: The true historical roots of school choice.
• [00:18:15] – The Horace Mann legacy: How common schooling fueled early cultural conflict.
• [00:23:50] – Civil rights and minority perspectives on controlling education.
• [00:34:56] – What does a "baseline" education look like? Balancing civic skills with parental rights.
• [00:41:35] – Why public schools struggle to teach controversial content (e.g., evolution vs. creationism).
• [00:46:11] – Redefining the "Public Good": Is pluralism the ultimate goal of educational policy?
• [00:56:02] – The modern surge: Why states are embracing universal school choice today.

In this episode, Drew Perkins is joined by Dr. Nathan Dolenc to unpack his recent critique of the Next Generation Science Standards (NGSS), detailed in his report, Good Intentions, Bad Implementation. While acknowledging the positive intentions behind the standards, Dolenc argues that the current implementation inadvertently prioritizes methods and inquiry over fundamental scientific principles, leading to fragmented curricula and the conflation of engineering with core scientific content. They explore the critical importance of restoring foundational knowledge as the bedrock of science education, discussing why rigorous content mastery must precede complex, phenomenon-based inquiries to prevent cognitive overload and ensure students truly understand the nature of science rather than just "doing" it.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected].

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.

*intro/outro voice credit: David O'Hara, Professor of Philosophy, Classics & Environmental Studies; Director of Environmental Studies & Sustainability at Augustana University

Key Takeaways:

• The Flaws of NGSS: The Next Generation Science Standards (NGSS) are critiqued for fragmenting the scientific process into an artificial matrix, failing to provide clear foundational definitions, and promoting illogical curriculum sequencing that lacks coherence.
• Foundation First (Expertise Reversal Effect): Students should prioritize foundational content mastery before engaging in complex, phenomenon-based inquiries. Starting with integrated or phenomenon-based curricula before establishing a foundation can lead to cognitive overload and hinder deep learning.
• Science vs. Engineering: There is a critical need to separate science from engineering. NGSS incorrectly conflates the two; engineering should be treated as an interdisciplinary capstone activity that requires prior scientific content mastery, rather than an introductory method for teaching science.
• Rethinking "Inquiry": While natural exploration is appropriate for early childhood education, the humanities-based interpretation of inquiry in current standards often prioritizes "dazzle" and entertainment over rigorous knowledge construction.
• Academic Engagement over Entertainment: Educators must prioritize academic and intellectual engagement. Activities that focus on student entertainment or "activist science" often result in an "illusion of learning" where students finish projects without understanding the underlying scientific laws or concepts.
• A Proposed Knowledge Model: To improve outcomes, curriculum should follow a three-phase model: Constructing (building foundational knowledge), Reinforcing (practice and application), and Utilizing (complex, real-world engineering or problem-solving).

Episode Highlights & Timecodes:

• [00:17:36] Overview of the NGSS Critique: Nathan outlines the core issues with the Next Generation Science Standards, including the omission of guiding principles, the incorrect conflation of science and engineering, and the lack of logical sequencing.
• [00:26:29] Defining Science Principles: A discussion on why the "nature of science" principles—such as evidence-based reasoning and objectivity—should be central to science education, rather than relegated to an appendix.
• [00:30:57] The Fragmentation of Inquiry: Nathan argues that NGSS breaks the scientific process into an "artificial matrix," failing to teach the true, iterative cycle of questioning, methodology, and data analysis.
• [00:39:53] Logical Sequencing of Content: An examination of how flexible standards and poorly designed curricula create gaps in student knowledge by disrupting the logical, sequential flow of disciplines like chemistry and biology.
• [00:48:29] Science vs. Engineering: Why the conflation of these two fields in NGSS often leads to "engineering appreciation" projects that create cognitive overload rather than teaching rigorous engineering practices.
• [00:58:29] Pedagogical Starting Points: A debate on the "expertise reversal effect"—why starting with integrated, phenomenon-based curricula can make it difficult for students to master foundational content.
• [01:34:18] Proposed Scientific Knowledge Model: Nathan introduces his three-phase model for science instruction: Constructing (foundational knowledge), Reinforcing (practice), and Utilizing (complex application).

In this episode, Drew Perkins talks with veteran high school math teacher and author Kristen Smith to discuss her evolution from a more traditional approach to math teaching, in the style of Teach Like a Champion, to one that might best be described as "teacher-led inquiry". We explore her "Inquiry Sandwich" methodology—a balanced pedagogical framework that leverages explicit routines to build fluency while creating space for deep, conceptual exploration.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected].

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.

Key Takeaways

• The "Inquiry Sandwich" Methodology: Learn how to bridge the "math wars" divide by blending explicit instruction with inquiry-based learning. This structure—starting with retrieval practice, moving into conceptual inquiry, and concluding with formal explicit instruction—allows students to build fluency while developing deep mathematical understanding.
• Disrupting the "Not a Math Person" Narrative: Math anxiety is often a result of rigid instruction. Discover how to engineer classroom experiences that prioritize consistent student success, clear modeling, and structured problem-solving to help students see themselves as capable mathematicians.
• Moving Beyond the "Geometry Sandwich": A critique of traditional fragmented course sequences (Algebra 1 → Geometry → Algebra 2). We explore the benefits of integrated mathematics pathways and the importance of allowing student choice in elective courses like financial math during the 11th and 12th grades.
• Bridging the Research-Practice Gap: Why relying on "laboratory" research can hinder classroom reality. We discuss the necessity of pedagogical synthesis—taking the best of structured classroom management and blending it with conceptual inquiry—rather than strictly adhering to one "side" of pedagogical theory.
• The Realities of PBL in Mathematics: While Project-Based Learning (PBL) is valuable, the hierarchical nature of math standards makes it difficult to implement in every unit. We discuss strategies for when to use PBL (e.g., specialized financial math courses) versus when to prioritize standards coverage and scaffolding.

Episode Highlights & Timecodes

• [00:04:08] Background and Teaching Experience: Kristen shares their journey from finance into education via the Math for America program and their reflections on high-quality teacher preparation.
• [00:11:29] Addressing Math Anxiety: Insights from Kristen's book, Cultivating Math Confidence, on disrupting the "not a math person" narrative.
• [00:15:56] Math for the Real World: A discussion on why high-level math education is essential for developing transferable problem-solving and modeling skills.
• [00:23:06] Rethinking Math Pathways: Why moving away from the traditional "Geometry Sandwich" and toward integrated math pathways supports better student engagement.
• [00:29:09] The "Easter Egg" Pedagogical Model: How Kristen blends the structured "I do, we do, you do" explicit instruction model with inquiry-based, conceptual lessons.
• [00:32:34] Influence of Illustrative Mathematics: The origin and philosophy of the problem-based curriculum designed to uncover mathematical meaning.
• [00:44:04] Inquiry vs. Procedural Fluency: The "both and" approach—why students need conceptual inquiry and fluency in prerequisite procedures to succeed.
• [00:51:37] The "Inquiry Sandwich" Methodology: A breakdown of Kristen's lesson structure: warm-up/skill-builder, inquiry experience, and concluding explicit instruction.
• [01:01:34] The Challenges of PBL in Math: Why Project-Based Learning can be difficult to implement in math courses due to the hierarchical nature of standards.
• [01:07:14] Closing & Resources: Where to find Cultivating Math Confidence and The Confidence Interval newsletter.

Drew Perkins talks with Ron Noble, Chief of Teacher Prep at the National Council on Teacher Quality (NCTQ) to discuss the "Transforming Teacher Prep" initiative. We explore why pre-service training often misses the mark and how prioritizing clinical practice, curriculum literacy, and the science of learning can fix it. Plus, Ron shares how NCTQ's new District Policy Pathfinder is bringing much-needed transparency to school district data.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

• nctq.org
• Job posting: Transforming Teacher Prep Project Lead

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected].

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.

Key Takeaways:

• Bridging the Day-One Gap: Many current teacher preparation pathways—especially alternative programs—are too short and lack essential clinical practice, often leaving new teachers unprepared for the realities of managing a classroom.
• Shifting to "Curriculum Literacy": Preparation programs should move away from the "build from scratch" ethos. Instead, they should train teachers to use High-Quality Instructional Materials (HQIM) by grounding them in cognitive science principles, such as cognitive load theory, which helps them adapt lessons effectively rather than viewing them as scripted.
• The Power of Clinical Practice: Early, hands-on experiences like simulations or tutoring create vital feedback loops. These experiences allow candidates to apply coursework concepts immediately and force programs to adjust their training based on real-world performance.
• Redefining Classroom Management: Effective management isn't just about behavioral tricks; it is closely linked to instruction. Poor behavior often stems from students being disengaged by non-challenging tasks, meaning robust, standards-aligned content is a key component of a well-managed classroom.
• The Role of State Policy: States must take a more proactive role in reviewing and adjusting teacher preparation policies rather than deferring exclusively to national accreditors. Setting high-quality state content standards is a powerful lever to encourage districts toward better curricula.
• Data-Driven Transparency: NCTQ launched the District Policy Pathfinder, a new tool that allows the public to query policy data—including salaries, evaluation procedures, and school day length—across more than 150 school districts, increasing transparency in the field.

Episode Highlights & Timecodes

• 08:09 – From NYC Teacher to NCTQ: Ron Noble shares their professional journey and how their experience as a middle school math teacher in New York City drives their commitment to improving teacher preparation.
• 09:55 – The "Too Short" Problem: Why many alternative teaching pathways fall short by lacking necessary clinical practice, leaving new teachers unprepared for the realities of the classroom.
• 13:52 – Transforming Teacher Prep: An overview of NCTQ's initiative aimed at building coherence between pre-service learning and the expectations of day-one district roles.
• 20:55 – Redefining Classroom Management: Understanding how behavioral issues are often rooted in disengagement, and why classroom management must be linked to instruction, not just behavior management techniques.
• 36:29 – Building Curriculum Literacy: Why teacher preparation programs should shift away from a "build-from-scratch" ethos and toward training teachers to adapt High-Quality Instructional Materials (HQIM).
• 47:52 – State Policy Levers: The role of state education agencies in setting high-quality standards and how state-level review processes can drive improvements in teacher preparation programs.
• 53:45 – Inquiry-Based Civics: Using the Massachusetts history and social science curriculum as a case study for how high-quality standards can support inquiry-based learning.
• 56:51 – Introducing the District Policy Pathfinder: A look at NCTQ's new tool that provides public transparency for policy data across more than 150 school districts.

Drew Perkins welcomes math teacher and author Michael Pershan to explore the history of CLT and how he thinks about applying Cognitive Load Theory in his math teaching.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected].

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.

Key Takeaways:

• Cognitive Load Theory as a Flexible Toolkit: Cognitive Load Theory is a context-dependent framework rather than a universal "silver bullet." Effective application requires adapting instruction to student proficiency—specifically accounting for the "Expertise Reversal Effect"—to ensure teaching methods remain calibrated to the learner's current stage.
• The Procedural-Conceptual Synthesis: Procedural fluency and conceptual understanding are not competing forces but complementary pillars of learning. Similar to how a baseball player refines their swing through technical coaching, students need both automaticity to handle complex tasks and explicit principles to assign meaning, with these skills developing concurrently.
• Prioritizing Classroom Reality over Academic Tribalism: Teachers need a pragmatic toolkit built for the "180-day reality" of the classroom, not just abstract pedagogical debates. Educators should be wary of over-applying narrow, isolated cognitive science findings to complex, holistic subjects and instead focus on whether research adequately maps the "whole territory" of daily instruction.
• Moving Beyond False Dichotomies: Debates such as "memory versus thinking" often create unhelpful academic divisions. In practice, these terms describe the same process from different angles; long-term memory is the repository of learning, and active, deep thinking is the necessary vehicle for building it.

Episode Highlights & Timecodes

• [00:07:34] Research Controversies: A candid discussion on the "You Cubed" project and the challenges of engaging in nuanced, critical dialogue with figures in the education field.
• [00:18:24] The Nature of Theory: Exploring why theories in human-centered sciences are more difficult to define and pin down than those in "hard" sciences.
• [00:23:15] From Critic to Proponent: How Michael moved from a skeptical stance on Cognitive Load Theory (CLT) to finding significant practical value in it through independent study and experimentation.
• [00:30:58] The Reality of School Culture: Why Michael is skeptical about teacher preparation programs, arguing that school culture often overrides academic training.
• [00:38:50] The "Political Coding" of Instruction: Examining why explicit instruction is increasingly viewed as "right-leaning" and why Michael critiques this tribalistic mentality as unhelpful.
• [00:43:35] The 180-Day Reality: An argument for a practical "theory of worksheets" that prioritizes daily classroom management over abstract debates.
• [00:47:47] The Expertise Reversal Effect: Why teaching methods must adapt to student proficiency, balancing productive struggle with direct instruction.
• [01:05:15] Defining Mathematical Maturity: Breaking down the difference between "fast" procedural knowledge (automaticity) and "explicit" linguistic knowledge (principles).
• [01:08:51] Procedural & Conceptual Interdependency: Why these shouldn't be taught separately; they act as "bumpers" for each other, similar to how a baseball player uses technical coaching to refine their swing.
• [01:12:04] Memory vs. Thinking: Addressing the false dichotomy; why long-term memory is the repository of learning and thinking is the vehicle to build it.
• [01:16:45] Over-Generalizing Cognitive Science: A critique of taking isolated findings (like "growth mindset") and over-applying them as universal solutions to complex, holistic subjects.

In this episode Drew Perkins talks with Haili Hughes, Associate Professor at La Trobe University in Melbourne, Australia about her work and thinking on education and teaching. More specifically, this conversation touched on matters of education tribalism, research, it's lethal mutations, and how to put those findings into practice as part of ongoing teacher development and empowerment.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected].

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.Some Key Takeaways

• Moving Beyond Educational Tribalism: The "traditional vs. progressive" binary is an unhelpful framework that fuels toxic online discourse. Instead of engaging in partisan arguments, educators should focus on identifying and solving shared "learning problems" to bridge ideological divides.
• Avoiding "Lethal Mutations": Implementing educational research requires more than just following mandates. Techniques often suffer from "lethal mutations," where the original intent is lost or misused for classroom management unless they are adapted to specific subjects and pedagogical contexts.
• Balancing Efficiency and Meaning-Making: While "checking for understanding" routines (like mini-whiteboards) are useful for efficiency, they cannot replace deep dialogic work. Teachers must ensure students have time to debate, inquire, and articulate complex thoughts.
• Reframing Teacher Development: Current bureaucratic, deficit-based evaluation models often alienate teachers. Professional growth is better fostered through dialogue-based coaching and by explicitly protecting time in the school day for professional reflection, rather than relying on top-down observation.
• Adapting Research to the Classroom: There is no one-size-fits-all approach to cognitive science. Teachers need the agency to combine evidence-based research with their own professional expertise to make informed decisions that fit their specific curriculum and student needs.
• Advice for the Modern Educator: In an era of high public scrutiny, government mandates, and constant noise, teachers—especially new ones—are best served by tuning out external pressure and keeping their focus centered on the children they serve.

Episode Highlights & Timecodes

• 00:07:35 – Haili's Journey: Haili Hughes introduces her background in English teaching, school leadership, and her path from the UK to her new role at La Trobe University in Melbourne.
• 00:14:25 – Beyond Educational Tribalism: A candid discussion on breaking down the "traditional vs. progressive" binary in education. Haili argues for focusing on shared learning problems rather than online ideology.
• 00:17:36 – Avoiding "Lethal Mutations": Why educational research often gets misinterpreted, misused, or turned into "pet projects" that don't actually impact the classroom.
• 00:27:11 – The Social Media Problem: Why platforms like X (formerly Twitter) are often poor proxies for nuanced pedagogical debate and why good faith is missing in many online discussions.
• 00:30:51 – Making Research Useful: Moving away from the view that research is "chucked down from towers" and toward a model where teachers use evidence to make professional decisions.
• 00:37:33 – Practical Cognitive Load Theory: How to move past the "bingo card" of educational jargon and apply cognitive science to solve specific, real-world learning problems.
• 00:42:32 – Checking for Understanding vs. Meaning Making: Why efficient tools like mini-whiteboards are not a replacement for deep dialogue and why we must preserve space for student inquiry.
• 00:46:30 – Reclaiming Inquiry: Haili explains why reframing inquiry as metacognition—an evidence-based practice—can help bridge the gap between seemingly opposing camps.
• 00:59:58 – Teacher Pre-service & Expertise: The danger of shoehorning cognitive science into teacher development and treating all teachers as "empty buckets" to be filled.
• 01:05:53 – Reforming Teacher Evaluation: Moving away from bureaucratic, clipboard-based observations toward dialogue-based coaching that empowers teachers to examine their own instructional decisions.
• 01:13:25 – Advice for New Teachers: Haili's powerful closing advice: Ignore the external noise—government mandates, public scrutiny, and complaints—and keep your focus on the children in front of you.