Science of Reading: The Podcast

What does it take to help every student in grades 5–8 access complex texts—without ever lowering the rigor? That’s the question at the heart of this special Science of Reading: The Podcast episode, with author and education consultant Mitchell Brookins, Ph.D. Mitchell joins host Susan Lambert, Ed.D., to discuss his new book, Scaffolding Complex Texts: How to Plan and Teach for Deeper Comprehension in Grades 5–8. Together, Mitchell and Susan also discuss the misconceptions about comprehension that keep students stuck at the surface level; why scaffolds should be deployed at the hardest—not the easiest—parts of a text; and why teachers need to become expert listeners to guide deeper comprehension.

Show notes:

• Read Scaffolding Complex Texts: How to Plan and Teach for Deeper Comprehension in Grades 5–8. 
• Listen to Mitchell’s first Science of Reading: The Podcast episode, Leading with the head and the heart: Enacting lasting literacy change.
• Listen to Mitchell’s Beyond My Years’ episode, Cultivating critical thinkers in your classroom. 
• Subscribe to Susan’s new Science of Reading Substack.
• Check out our Comprehension Insights from Season 10 Youtube Playlist. 
• Join our Science of Reading community Facebook group.

Quotes:
“Comprehension to me is not the who, what, when, where. It’s not the gist. It’s insight.” —Mitchell Brookins

“When you give students more, they do more.” —Mitchell Brookins

Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction: Scaffolding complex texts, with Mitchell Brookins, Ph.D.
2:00 Mitchell’s background and journey
5:00 How Scaffolding Complex Texts came to be
10:00 Misconceptions about comprehension instruction
14:00 What educators need to understand about how students comprehend complex texts
19:00 What needs to change in classrooms
27:00 Making deep comprehension instruction consistent
34:00 Unintended consequences and cognitive flexibility
38:00 Closing thoughts: How writing the book transformed Mitchell
*Timestamps are approximate, rounded to nearest minute

While Tier 1 instruction is the foundation of a successful Multi-Tiered System of Supports (MTSS), it is also the element we most often overlook. On this episode of Science of Reading: The Podcast, Sarah Brown, Ph.D., consultant and co-author of Effective Universal Instruction: An Action-Oriented Approach to Improving Tier 1, joins host Susan Lambert, Ed.D., to explore why this is and what it takes to give Tier 1 the attention it deserves. Together, Sarah and Susan also discuss common misconceptions about Tier 1; why a strong Tier 1 directly determines how targeted and intensive your interventions can be; and how to use data to assess whether your Tier 1 is truly working.

Show notes:

• Download our free companion MTSS ebook! 
• Learn more about building a sustainable, data-informed MTSS.
• Read Effective Universal Instruction by Sarah Brown, Kim Gibbons, and Brad Niebling.
• Read Routines for Reading Results by Sarah Brown
• Learn more about System Impact Consulting.
• Connect with Sarah Brown on LinkedIn.
• Listen to Season 3 of Amplify’s Beyond My Years podcast.
• Subscribe to Susan’s new Science of Reading Substack.
• Join our Science of Reading community Facebook group.
• Connect with Susan Lambert.

Quotes:

"Our labels don't define our students' skills and abilities. The quality and intensity of our instruction is really what matters." —Sarah Brown

"We are running ourselves ragged trying to provide intervention for too many students." —Sarah Brown

"Tier 1 instruction really deserves the same love and attention as your interventions and other tiers." —Sarah Brown

"MTSS is a framework, not a roadmap, which means it doesn't look the same in every school." —Sarah Brown

Timestamps*:
0:00 Introduction: Tier 1: The MTSS foundation, with Sarah Brown
3:00 Sarah Brown's background and path to MTSS
6:00 Defining Tier 1 instruction
10:00 What an effective Tier 1 looks like
14:00 Why a strong Tier 1 enables targeted intervention
17:00 Using data to assess your Tier 1
21:00 Common misconceptions about Tier 1
22:00 What Tier 1 intervention looks like
27:00 Common themes in Tier 1
38:00 Effective Universal Instruction and closing thoughts
*Timestamps are approximate, rounded to nearest minute

What does it actually take to move a Multi-Tiered System of Supports (MTSS) from concept to practice? That's what University of Florida's Fien Endowed Professor of Special Education and University of Florida Literacy Institute Assistant Director Matthew Burns, Ph.D., explores with host Susan Lambert, Ed.D., on this new episode of Science of Reading: The Podcast. Together, Matt and Susan also discuss the real difference between an MTSS and Response to Intervention (RTI), and why the two get conflated so often; why strong core instruction is the foundation upon which everything else depends; and three trouble spots that can derail an MTSS: data use, team meetings, and intervention matching.

Show notes:

• Sign up for our Literacy Data and MTSS Week.
• Learn more about the International MTSS Association and its Journal for MTSS.
• Connect with Matthew Burns on LinkedIn.
• Listen to Season 3 of Amplify’s Beyond My Years podcast.
• Subscribe to Susan’s new Science of Reading Substack.
• Join our Science of Reading community Facebook group.
• Connect with Susan Lambert.

Quotes:
"I would argue a well-embedded MTSS should be almost invisible." —Matthew Burns

"Without good core instruction, nothing else matters." —Matthew Burns

Timestamps*:
2:00 Introduction: Putting an MTSS into practice, with Matthew Burns, Ph.D.
4:00 What an MTSS is, and clearing up confusion with RTI
9:00 Common pitfalls in MTSS implementation
12:00 What effective professional learning communities look like
17:00 The history of the MTSS and curriculum-based measurement
21:00 Awareness vs. true understanding of MTSS use
23:00 Why core instruction has to come first, and how to target intervention
30:00 The International MTSS Association
36:00 Integrating academic and behavior support
*Timestamps are approximate, rounded to nearest minute

MTSS explores the Multi-Tiered System of Supports (MTSS), from foundational concepts to practical implementation. To kick things off, Joan Schumann, Ph.D., founding executive director of the International MTSS Association, joins host Susan Lambert, Ed.D., to provide an overview of an MTSS—what it is, what it isn't, and its core elements. Together, Joan and Susan discuss the core beliefs that make or break an MTSS implementation, what a prevention-oriented mindset looks like in a school, and why early access to intervention is central to the MTSS framework. 

Show notes:

• Sign up for our Literacy Data and MTSS Week.
• Learn more about the International MTSS Association and its Journal for MTSS.
• Connect with Joan Schumann on LinkedIn.
• Subscribe to Season 3 of Amplify's Beyond My Years podcast.
• Subscribe to Susan's new Science of Reading Substack.
• Join our Science of Reading community Facebook group.
• Connect with Susan Lambert.

Quotes:

"You cannot implement the [MTSS] framework if you don't believe all kids can learn." —Joan Schumann

"If we all start engaging in these small shifts and calls for change, it'll be just like the Science of Reading, only it'll be the science of learning." —Joan Schumann

"Don't underestimate the power of starting small, or raising a question in a meeting, or challenging a belief that you hear. I think it's through these small acts of courage that you can have a big impact."

Timestamps*:
0:00 Introduction: MTSS 101, with Joan Schumann, Ph.D.
4:00 Joan's background and journey in education
9:00 An overview of MTSS
10:00 The core belief at the heart of MTSS
17:00 MTSS as a prevention-oriented system
19:00 Rethinking school structure
25:00 Common MTSS misconceptions
28:00 How MTSS and special education relate
33:00 Breaking down the core elements of MTSS
36:00 MTSS beyond literacy
38:00 The International MTSS Association
46:00 Final thoughts
*Timestamps are approximate, rounded to nearest minute

Host Susan Lambert gives you a first look at Season 11 of Science of Reading: The Podcast, which will focus on using a Multi-Tiered System of Supports (MTSS). Along with her expert guests, Susan will take a close look at what MTSS really means, how its different components work, and what it takes to implement and scale it successfully in a real school or classroom. Check out the trailer to get a glimpse of the season's conversations on Tier 1, screening, intervention, progress monitoring, and data teaming, and see clips of the guests you can look forward to hearing from!

Show notes:

• Get ready for the new podcast season with Literacy Data and MTSS Week, a free week of webinars. 
• Subscribe to the new Science of Reading Substack.
• Listen to Season 3 of Beyond My Years.
• Join our community Facebook group. 
• Connect with Susan Lambert. 

In our latest Science of Reading: Essentials episode, Susan Lambert, Ed.D., draws on expert voices from across the podcast to show how assessment can be one of the most exciting and empowering tools an educator has at their disposal. Featuring Jan Hasbrouck, Ph.D.; Stephanie Stollar, Ph.D.; Kate Winn; Kymyona Burk, Ed.D.; Kajal Patel Below; Gina Biancarosa, Ed.D.; and Melissa Farrall, Ph.D., this episode covers the three types of assessment every educator needs—universal screening, diagnostic assessment, and progress monitoring—and how they work together; what the Oral Reading Fluency measure actually measures, why it matters, and how it's often misunderstood; and why assessing comprehension is so complex, and what teachers can do about it. 

Show notes: 

• Check out all of our Science of Reading Essentials episodes.
• Sign up for our upcoming Assessment Webinar Series. 
• Listen to Season 3 of Amplify’s Beyond My Years podcast.
• Listen to the full episodes:
  • The right assessment and the right data with Dr. Jan Hasbrouck
  • Assessment as your best friend, with Kate Winn and Stephanie Stollar, Ph.D.
  • Language is always an asset, with Kajal Patel Below
  • Understanding assessment, with Melissa Farrall, Ph.D.
  • Reimagining comprehension assessment, with Gina Biancarosa, Ed.D.
  • A proactive response to the adolescent literacy crisis, with Kymyona Burk, Ed.D.
• Subscribe to Susan’s new Science of Reading Substack.
• Join our Science of Reading community Facebook group.
• Connect with Susan Lambert.

Quotes:
“If you don’t have a question about your students, you don’t need to do more assessment. This should not be a compliance activity.” —Stephanie Stollar

“We never want to do one iota, one second, one minute of extra assessment that we don’t have to do unless it answers a key question that makes us better teachers.” —Jan Hasbrouck

“About 90% of all reading challenges are due to difficulty recognizing the words.” —Melissa Farrall

“We don’t want more testing. We want the right kind of testing.” —Kymyona Burk

“Once you ask a question, you can change what it is that someone has understood from what they read.” —Gina Biancarosa

“When we love the kids, we want to do the best for them.” —Kate Winn

“Ideally, kids would be assessed in their home language.” —Kajal Patel Below

Timestamps*:
0:00 Science of Reading Essentials: Assessment
3:00 Why educators have complicated feelings about assessment
4:00 The three key questions every assessment should answer
6:00 Universal screening
8:00 Screening multilingual and English learners
11:00 Diagnostic assessment
12:00 Progress monitoring
15:00 Why alignment across all three tools matters
16:00 Teacher-administered and curriculum-based assessments
18:00 Oral Reading Fluency (ORF): what it is and why it matters
24:00 Why ORF is widely misunderstood
28:00 The challenges of assessing comprehension
38:00 Key takeaways and next steps
*Timestamps are approximate

On this encore episode of Science of Reading: The Podcast, host Susan Lambert, Ed.D., is joined by Brittney Bills, Ed.D., educator and senior manager of literacy partnerships at Amplify. Brittney explains what a Multi-Tiered System of Supports (MTSS) is and how it centers on prevention, rather than intervention. She also talks about the intersection of universal screening data and an MTSS, and provides advice on evidence-based strategies and techniques to make a positive impact in your classroom. Drawing on examples from her former district, Brittney discusses how to prevent burnout, use data effectively, and support ongoing improvement.

Show notes: 

• Connect with Brittney Bills on LinkedIn.
• Listen to Season 3 of the Amplify podcast Beyond My Years.
• Join our community Facebook group.
• Connect with Susan Lambert.

Quotes:

"[An] MTSS is not a thing that lives outside of the Science of Reading. They're two things that complement each other very, very well." —Brittney Bills

"We need better processes that we can apply more widely to effectively arrive at our outcomes for our students who need more intensive support." —Brittney Bills

"It's the student's needs that should drive the decisions, not a cool presentation that we saw at a conference." —Brittney Bills

Timestamps*:
0:00 Introduction: Implementing MTSS with Brittney Bills, Ed.D.
2:00 Brittney's Science of Reading journey
5:00 Pursuing leadership
6:00 Bringing literacy and MTSS together
7:00 What is an MTSS?
9:00 Universal tier as the first intervention
11:00 Key MTSS components: screening, fidelity, and progress monitoring
17:00 Student need should drive decisions
18:00 Class-wide intervention and leveraging data efficiently
21:00 Rethinking small-group instruction
30:00 Data analysis tools for grade-level PLCs
35:00 MTSS as continuous support
42:00 Closing thoughts: "MTSS is not another thing, it is the thing."
*Timestamps are approximate

In this episode of Science of Reading: The Podcast, host Susan Lambert, Ed.D., does something a little different, sharing her own research alongside that of her guest, Sonia Cabell, Ph.D. Together, they trace how Sonia's large-scale Institute of Education Sciences (IES) study directly inspired Susan's dissertation, and what that process reveals about how evidence in literacy education actually gets built. Susan and Sonia also discuss what Sonia's IES study on content-rich literacy instruction found; how Susan's own dissertation research built directly on those findings; what it really means for research to "accumulate" and why it matters for classroom practice.

Show notes:

• Sign up for our fall Literacy Data and MTSS Week.
• Listen to Sonia's previous Science of Reading: The Podcast appearances:
  • Deconstructing the Rope: Language comprehension
  • Research, comprehension, and content-rich literacy instruction
• Read Sonia's book, Strive-for-Five Conversations: A Framework That Gets Kids Talking to Accelerate Their Language Comprehension and Literacy.
• Learn more about the Florida Center for Reading Research.
• Check out Sonia's IES study.
• Listen to Reid Lyon, Ph.D., on Science of Reading: The Podcast
  • Embracing the complexity of learning to read, Part 1 and Part 2
  • Systematizing literacy
• Listen to Season 3 of Amplify's Beyond My Years podcast.
• Subscribe to Susan's new Science of Reading Substack.
• Join our Science of Reading community Facebook group.
• Connect with Susan Lambert. 

Quotes:

"The Science of Reading is not like a product. It's not a thing. It's an ever-accumulating body of work." —Sonia Cabell

"You're doing better than you think. Keep being a learner." —Sonia Cabell

"It's the accumulation of research over time that leads us to an evidence base, not just any one study." —Sonia Cabell

Timestamps*:
0:00 Introduction: How research builds on research
3:00 Sonia's research focus: oral language as the foundation of reading
7:00 The origin of the IES study
10:00 Sonia's study design and what cut it short
16:00 Results of the IES study
23:00 What is an IES study?
25:00 Causation versus correlation
28:00 Susan's dissertation: building on Sonia's research
31:00 What Susan found
35:00 "It's not about just one landmark study"
41:00 Trusted organizations for educators
44:00 Reasons for optimism
48:00 Closing thoughts
*Timestamps are approximate

In this final episode of our four-part adolescent literacy miniseries, Susan Lamber, Ed.D., is joined by Kymyona Burk, Ed.D., a senior policy fellow for literacy at ExcelinEd and former Mississippi state literacy director and secondary English teacher. Together, Susan and Kymyona connect what we know from early literacy to the urgent needs of middle school reading, including the policies, professional development, and practices it will take to reach the adolescent readers who need us most. They also explore what comprehensive adolescent literacy policy must include, what other states' legislative momentum for secondary literacy can teach us, and why literacy belongs in every content-area classroom.

Show notes:

• Check out our Science of Reading resources for grades 6–8.
• Read the Educator Preparation Program Literacy Policy Playbook.
• Learn more about the Advancing Adolescent Literacy Model Policy.
• Listen to Kymyona Burk's episode from Season 5.
• Learn more about Kymyona Burk.
• Connect with Kymyona Burk on LinkedIn.
• Get ready for Season 3 of the Amplify podcast Beyond My Years.
• Join our community Facebook group.
• Connect with Susan Lambert. 

Quotes:

There's a literacy crisis in middle and high school, too." —Kymyona Burk

"We've been ver proactive with early literacy, but more reactive, I believe, in adolescent literacy." —Kymyona Burk

"Think more about what the students need in response to data instead of pacing." —Kymyona Burk

Timestamps*:
0:00 Introduction: Adolescent literacy policy, with Kymyona Burk, Ed.D.
5:00 "I knew how to teach English, but I did not know how to teach reading."
7:00 Comparing and contrasting early literacy and adolescent literacy policy
12:00 What good adolescent literacy policy looks like
15:00 The case for universal screeners in middle school
18:00 The Virginia Literacy Act and other states building momentum
24:00 Professional development for middle and high school educators
28:00 Advice for secondary educators
33:00 "Think more about what students need in response to data instead of pacing"
35:00 Educator preparation programs: the next frontier
39:00 Closing thoughts
*Timestamps are approximate

In this third episode of our four-part adolescent literacy miniseries, Susan Lambert, Ed.D., speaks with Jeanne Schopf, interventionist, national literacy consultant, and editor of the new book Reading Isn't Optional: Fulfilling the Promise of Literacy for Secondary Students. Susan and Jeanne discuss why belief systems about at-risk readers are often the biggest barrier to change, and why that's true at every level of a school system. They also explore how scheduling, data, and coaching serve as system-level levers that principals and teachers can use to transform secondary literacy outcomes—and why leadership remains the single most powerful lever of all.

Show notes:

• Our Summer Learning Academy is underway! Reserve your spot now to join Susan Lambert for the next session and dive deeper into the latest reading comprehension research.
• Check out our Science of Reading resources for grades 6–8.
• Read Jeanne's book Reading Isn't Optional: Fulfilling the Promise of Literacy for Secondary Students.
• Check out Improving Adolescent Literacy: Effective Classroom and Intervention Practices.
• Read Providing Reading Interventions for Students in Grades 4–9.
• Listen to "Focused Implementation: Doing less to do more," with Doug Reeves, Ph.D.
• Get ready for Season 3 of the Amplify podcast Beyond My Years.
• Read Susan's NEW Science of Reading Substack.
• Join our community Faceook group.
• Connect with Susan Lambert. 

Quotes:

"Everything rises and falls on leadership." —Jeanne Schopf

"I had to learn that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." —Jeanne Schopf

"If we really, truly want to change kids' lives and graduate readers, it's going to take all hands on deck. Everybody has to have a voice." —Jeanne Schopf

"Success is a team sport." —Jeanne Schopf

Timestamps*:
0:00 Introduction What adolescent readers really need, with Jeanne Schopf
3:00 Jeanne's journey from whole language to structured literacy
7:00 Discovering structured literacy
10:00 "We fall to the level of our systems"
15:00 "Everything rises and falls on leadership."
20:00 Belief systems and their impact on instruction and expectations
22:00 Building intervention time into the secondary schedule
26:00 What a good data meeting looks like
30:00 Reading Isn't Optional as a call for action
34:00 Inside the book: from belief to transformation
42:00 Oral language and scaffolding grade-level text
46:00 "You were never taught to read and it's not your fault"
47:00 Closing thoughts
*Timestamps are approximate